Wind-Up Zenmaines - Page 8

IonCharge · 10-02-2011, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaGoemon

I take it that Zenmaines doesn't need to be on the field during the end phase, since it doesn't say that it has to be.

If it is not face up on the field it cannot activate its effect.
lolPojo

The New Kid · 10-02-2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonCharge

Because -1s are so fun.

They're 100x better than -3s. Unless you have some secret way to quickly get rid of Zenmaister?

Plus, -1s mean absolutely nothing anymore, for the most part, pluses only matter in slower formats. Effect Veilers, D.D. Crows, Herald of Orange Light. In addition, you can +1 yourself all you want, when I hit you with 2 Hyperions and a Krystia (or 3 Graphas) a +10 isn't going to save you.

momoRX · 10-02-2011, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The New Kid

They're 100x better than -3s. Unless you have some secre way to quickly get rid of Zenmaister?

Plus, -1s mean absolutely nothing anymore, for the most part, pluses only matter in slower formats. Effect Veilers, D.D. Crows, Herald of Orange Light. In addition, you can +1 yourself all you want, when I hit you with 2 Hyperions and a Krystia (or 3 Graphas) a +10 isn't going to save you.

just caius that f!sh

**NinjaGoemon** · 10-02-2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonCharge

If it is not face up on the field it cannot activate its effect.
lolPojo

Well, if it activates on the field and you chain Offerings to the Doomed while it has no Xyz materials, it would resolve normally wouldn't it? Guess I need to clarify better.

Neonian · 10-02-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaGoemon

I take it that Zenmaines doesn't need to be on the field during the end phase, since it doesn't say that it has to be.

So are we done yet or does pojo have yet another completely absurd uneducated statement to make.

The New Kid · 10-02-2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neonian

So are we done yet or does pojo have yet another completely absurd uneducated statement to make.

What a wonderful person! A person new to the website, makes an incorrect post, and instead of helping him, he is exonerated about a ruling that honestly isn't that basic and had a lot of exceptions before problem solving text. In addition, he bases the entierty of pojo off of the new guy- who is still learning the ins and outs.

Like it or not, Zenmaines is going to cause a rulings storm, not a big one, but because of the nature of it's effect and the length it's going to stay on the field, people will get frustrated and try and find ways to get around it.

If we should be getting angry only one person deserves our collective vitriol, ** looks at Tour Guide From the Underworld **

Neonian · 10-02-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The New Kid

What a wonderful person! A person new to the website, makes an incorrect post, and instead of helping, exonerates him about a ruling that honestly isn't that basic and had a lot of exceptions before problem solving text. In addition, he bases the entierty of pojo off of the new guy- who is still learning ins and outs.

Are we done yet, or are rude people still going to insult the little guy?

Like it or not, Zenmaines is going to cause a rulings storm, not a big one, but because of the nature of it's effect and the length it's going to stay on the field, people will get frustrated and try and find ways to get around it.

If we should be getting angry only one person deserves our collective vitriol, ** looks at Tour Guide From the Underworld **

6 posts in and i'd already established myself as the greatest human being on pojo, which puts me in the running for greatest human being alive.

Naturally, this means i have high standards.

The New Kid · 10-02-2011, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neonian

6 posts in and i'd already established myself as the greatest human being on pojo, which puts me in the running for greatest human being alive.

Naturally, this means i have high standards.

Haha, touche. Never lower your standards for anyone.

IonCharge · 10-02-2011, 12:14 PM

How the **** can Zenmaines cause a ruling storm?

Seriously

The New Kid · 10-02-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonCharge

How the **** can Zenmaines cause a ruling storm?

Seriously

The same way Exiled Force and Skill Drain caused a ruling storm. The card isn't really that complicated, but in the heat of an intense/fast-moving tournament it's incredibly hard to think clearly.

That's my explanation for repeat winners of SJ/YCS Championships. They or their decks may not be inherently better than anyone else but their ability to keep calm probably keeps them from misplaying or even making sub-optimal (but not incorrect) plays.

To clarify, I meant a ruling storm as in, he'll be the piece in a lot of rulings questions, nothing like Tour Guide and Sangan back before the re-ruling.

**Redshift** · 10-02-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The New Kid

The same way Exiled Force and Skill Drain caused a ruling storm. The card isn't really that complicated, but in the heat of an intense/fast-moving tournament it's incredibly hard to think clearly.

Not really.. Do you mill with "Judgment Dragon" if he gets killed during your Battle Phase? I don't think people would have trouble with that sort of thing.

IonCharge · 10-02-2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redshift

Not really.. Do you mill with "Judgment Dragon" if he gets killed during your Battle Phase? I don't think people would have trouble with that sort of thing.

This.

Drain vs Exiled Force is just a matter of reading the cards.

The New Kid · 10-02-2011, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redshift

Not really.. Do you mill with "Judgment Dragon" if he gets killed during your Battle Phase? I don't think people would have trouble with that sort of thing.

That's a matter of reading the card, legit. People had problems misinterpreting stuff like Skill Drain and it's interactions.

(Plus, apparently, people had trouble with Lightsworn's mill anyway according to this new problem solving text)

Additional Comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonCharge

This.

Drain vs Exiled Force is just a matter of reading the cards.

I'm not testing you guys on how easy it is. I'm referencing how many questions came (still come?) up on it. Beginners and intense stress will always ask questions that seem basic. My proof is the Q&A forum as well as Judging at recent YCSs. It's not really a debate topic, it happens, and it's not always because they didn't read the card, it's because their mind is in a muddle and making extrapolations is not easily done under psychological pressure, by humans, science proved that already.

To clarify again:

No background Knowledge: - Result of "just reading the Cards"

-Skill Drain says effects of face-up monsters are negated. Exiled Force is face up and has an effect. Its effect doesn't work
-Judgment dragon says it mills during the end phase. It is the battle phase. It does not mill.

Background Knowledge:

-Skill Drain says effects of face-up monsters are negated. Exiled Force has a cost to tribute itself and activates in the graveyard, costs cannot be negated. Exiled Force works.
-Judgment dragon says it mills during the end phase. It is the battle phase. It still does not mill.

See what I mean now? Sure you can say that they should know the rules better, but I think each of us who went to school knows that sometimes, even after studying, you suddenly forget stuff/make a stupid mistake on a test.

Neonian · 10-02-2011, 02:00 PM

thats only because people cant read

**Redshift** · 10-02-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The New Kid

That's a matter of reading the card, legit. People had problems misinterpreting stuff like Skill Drain and it's interactions.

(Plus, apparently, people had trouble with Lightsworn's mill anyway according to this new problem solving text)

Actually, that new addition clarifies something I'm sure most people never realized. If you chain "Book of Moon" or "Compulsory Evacuation Device" to "Judgment Dragon"'s End Phase effect, it doesn't resolve properly. It's obvious that you can't use the effect if he's not on the field at the End Phase, but previously there was no reason to think he had to stay face-up for the effect to resolve, since that's the opposite of how most other activating effects work.

SageShini · 10-02-2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonCharge

I won't -1 because I'll use Tour Guide...

The only reason its in the Top 4 of the last YCS is because its ridiculously good.

If you don't think this card is good, look at Gachi Gachi Gantetsu. On appearance its a meh card, but when you play against it, its an annoyance that eats up your resources. This card does the same, with added destruction.

My mistake. I meant this card was bad because it's poorly designed. It's a very good card though. The second part was just my saying it's effect probably won't do that much to me. In fact in general I thought aside from Mirror Force, Dark Hole and Torrential, nobody destroyed anything outside of attacking in duels anyway. Bounce/Banish all day.

**Redshift** · 10-02-2011, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageShini

My mistake. I meant this card was bad because it's poorly designed. It's a very good card though. The second part was just my saying it's effect probably won't do that much to me. In fact in general I thought aside from Mirror Force, Dark Hole and Torrential, nobody destroyed anything outside of attacking in duels anyway. Bounce/Banish all day.

These are what you see in the majority of Decks, but each have their own specialized forms of destruction too. "Master Hyperion", "Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter", "Judgment Dragon", "Hand of the Six Samurai", "Scrap Dragon", "Gravekeeper's Descendant", etc.

MarshTronic · 10-03-2011, 02:36 AM

I guess no one read the article... *sigh*.

The article states that Wind-Up Zenmaines won't activate its destruction effect if it leaves the field.

momoRX · 10-03-2011, 04:55 AM

If Wind-Up Zenmaines’ protective ability is used, you can destroy any card on the field during the End Phase. Zenmaines is a walking landmine that punishes your opponent for provoking it. If your opponent tries to touch it they’ll have one of their cards blow up at the end of the turn! Your opponent will either leave it alone, or frantically launch a giant assault on it to try and destroy it before it can explode their cards (since its effect won’t activate if it leaves the field).

MarshTronic · 10-03-2011, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoRX

If Wind-Up Zenmaines’ protective ability is used, you can destroy any card on the field during the End Phase. Zenmaines is a walking landmine that punishes your opponent for provoking it. If your opponent tries to touch it they’ll have one of their cards blow up at the end of the turn! Your opponent will either leave it alone, or frantically launch a giant assault on it to try and destroy it before it can explode their cards (since its effect won’t activate if it leaves the field).

I probably should have quoted it. Thank momoRX.

IonCharge · 10-03-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The New Kid

That's a matter of reading the card, legit. People had problems misinterpreting stuff like Skill Drain and it's interactions.

(Plus, apparently, people had trouble with Lightsworn's mill anyway according to this new problem solving text)

Additional Comment:

I'm not testing you guys on how easy it is. I'm referencing how many questions came (still come?) up on it. Beginners and intense stress will always ask questions that seem basic. My proof is the Q&A forum as well as Judging at recent YCSs. It's not really a debate topic, it happens, and it's not always because they didn't read the card, it's because their mind is in a muddle and making extrapolations is not easily done under psychological pressure, by humans, science proved that already.

To clarify again:

No background Knowledge: - Result of "just reading the Cards"

-Skill Drain says effects of face-up monsters are negated. Exiled Force is face up and has an effect. Its effect doesn't work
-Judgment dragon says it mills during the end phase. It is the battle phase. It does not mill.

Background Knowledge:

-Skill Drain says effects of face-up monsters are negated. Exiled Force has a cost to tribute itself and activates in the graveyard, costs cannot be negated. Exiled Force works.
-Judgment dragon says it mills during the end phase. It is the battle phase. It still does not mill.

See what I mean now? Sure you can say that they should know the rules better, but I think each of us who went to school knows that sometimes, even after studying, you suddenly forget stuff/make a stupid mistake on a test.

Er actually it's more:

Activate Exiled Force, Paying cost by tributing.

On resolution, it is not face up, therefore cannot be negated.

The card activates and resolves on the field, its just not an eligible target to be negated, which can be deduced from the text of Skill Drain and Exiled Force.

DunnoBro · 10-03-2011, 12:06 PM

Fighting zenmaines reminded me of the fights with the OP wyvern lords in fire emblem 6 hard mode. You'd have to force like 3 people to atk it indirectly with magic, arrows, and hand axes otherwise it would pick off your guys one by one.

Though, i do like zenmains design. VERY VERY GOOD DESIGN.

But people should actually be losing something for making him.

Flamecircle · 10-03-2011, 12:12 PM

again, tourguide's fault.

Sarco the Legend · 10-03-2011, 12:59 PM

Amm I the only one who uses Tour Guide to summon things other than Tour Guide or Sangan?

Rescue Rabbit gets this thing out too. Or did everybody miss the "level 4 or lower part of its text?

IonCharge · 10-03-2011, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarco the Legend

Amm I the only one who uses Tour Guide to summon things other than Tour Guide or Sangan?

Rescue Rabbit gets this thing out too. Or did everybody miss the "level 4 or lower part of its text?

I don't get herself or Sangan .