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Old 01-30-2011, 11:17 AM   #1
illusionX
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Default Pot of Duality vs. Special Summons

Let us see if we can keep things civil and have an actual discussion (I have my doubts ).

First, the ruling provided below is official.

What I am curious about is whether you agree or disagree. You must be respectful. Please provide evidence to your position in the form of rulings, extrapolations, mechanics, et cetera (i.e. Miracle Fertilizer).

Courtesy of Will Falta:
Quote:
From: William Falta
Sent: 12/1/10 2:35 PM EST
To: us-ygorules@konami.com
Subject: Pot of Duality v. a special summon effect

There seems to be some player confusion as to if a player who has activated an effect that special summons can still activate Pot of Duality if that effect is negated. There is uncertainty whether the activation of the effect would be negated, only the effect without the activation negated, or just that there was no special summon, regardless of the situation.

1) If a player flip summons “Gravekeeper’s Spy,” and the opponent chains “Solemn Warning,” can that player activate “Pot of Duality?”

2) If a player flip summons “Gravekeeper’s Spy,” and the opponent chains “Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror,” can that player activate “Pot of Duality?”

3) If a player flip summons “Gravekeeper’s Spy,” and the opponent chains “Vanity’s Emptiness,” can that player activate “Pot of Duality”

From: us-ygorules@konami.com
Sent: 1/25/11 4:37 PM EST
To: William Falta
Subject: Pot of Duality v. a special summon effect

1) Yes

2) No

3) No
I give this thread about one page before it gets locked down my Ness00.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:23 AM   #2
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I disagree with 2, GK Spy will be attempting to Special Summon, but it's effect is completely negated. Therefore no special summon(it just seems to contradict 1 by a small margin, the monster is destroyed).

Why is it that you can't use PoD then?
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:26 AM   #3
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@lucien
Solemn warning negates activations
Shadow-imprisioning mirror negates effects
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:27 AM   #4
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Looks fine to me. 2 is right because you attempted to special summon, but the effect got negated. The attempt still went through though. 1 on the other hand, the activation was negated so the effect didn't get to activate.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:46 AM   #5
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Time ago ness said
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.p...5&postcount=19

And this
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Think of it like this. An effect is only an effect, until it does something. Sorry, but that's all I can say right now, as I'm in a hurry. Seriously, guys, you tend to come up with the hardest questions when I need to leave T_T
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.p...0&postcount=17

I actually believe the same but i have no evidence to show =/
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:58 AM   #6
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1) The Summon of the Monster is negated so it's like it never hit the field.
2) According to the card's text you can use POD because you don't "Special Summon a monster(s) during this turn" but a lot of people believe that this occassion is similar to 2 other examples...

Quote:
Soul Exchange

Ruling:
If the activation of your "Soul Exchange" is negated (by "Solemn Judgment", etc.), you may conduct your Battle Phase. If only the effect of "Soul Exchange" is negated (by "Imperial Order", etc.), you may not conduct your Battle Phase.
Quote:
Scapegoat

Ruling:
If your opponent chains "Magic Jammer" to your "Scapegoat" you may still perform Summons that turn, but if they chain "Imperial Order" you may not perform Summons.
So you cannot activate POD.
3) About the same as 2.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterkoitsu View Post
1) The Summon of the Monster is negated so it's like it never hit the field.
1 In this case you are negating an effect not an special summon
If you were negating a summon then you couldn't activate pod the same turn
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterkoitsu View Post
1) The Summon of the Monster is negated so it's like it never hit the field.
2) According to the card's text you can use POD because you don't "Special Summon a monster(s) during this turn" but a lot of people believe that this occassion is similar to 2 other examples...




So you cannot activate POD.
3) About the same as 2.

Which would be fine if we all said that activating the effect equals the attempt to special summon.
As was quoted, an effect is only an effect. An effect which contains a special summon at its resolution is not considered a special summon attempt. Only when it resolves does a special summon occur. The effect never got to resolve properly so you never got to attemp a special summon.

I believe most of us know the rulings you are quoting, but they don't have something to do with this case. What would be relevant to those is a negated inherent special summon, since that is a special summon attempt.

I have to say on this case I can't understand no3 either. Because Vanity's Emptiness blocks special summons Gravekeeper's Spy resolves without effect and never actually attemps a special summon the way I see it.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonPiantissimo View Post
Which would be fine if we all said that activating the effect equals the attempt to special summon.
As was quoted, an effect is only an effect. An effect which contains a special summon at its resolution is not considered a special summon attempt. Only when it resolves does a special summon occur. The effect never got to resolve properly so you never got to attemp a special summon.

I believe most of us know the rulings you are quoting, but they don't have something to do with this case. What would be relevant to those is a negated inherent special summon, since that is a special summon attempt.

I have to say on this case I can't understand no3 either. Because Vanity's Emptiness blocks special summons Gravekeeper's Spy resolves without effect and never actually attemps a special summon the way I see it.
if gravekeeper spy activates, when it resolves it will have attempted to special summon regardless of what's on the field. I will say that the way vanity's is worded, one would think that spy wouldn't activate in the first place.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCtheOnly View Post
if gravekeeper spy activates, when it resolves it will have attempted to special summon regardless of what's on the field. I will say that the way vanity's is worded, one would think that spy wouldn't activate in the first place.
But being a flip effect it would have to activate even if it couldn't resolve successfully.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarwinDawkins09 View Post
But being a flip effect it would have to activate even if it couldn't resolve successfully.
and this is why number 3 makes sense. It did in fact activate, and then resolves without effect.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCtheOnly View Post
I will say that the way vanity's is worded, one would think that spy wouldn't activate in the first place.
In the example vanity emptiness is chained to the activation of gravekeeper
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:25 PM   #13
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I guess the 3 answers given establish the point that where Pot of Duality is concerned if a special summon effect makes it to resolution whether it resolves successfully or not it constitutes an attempt to special summon.

illusionX mentioned Miracle Fertilizer which will not apply its restrictions if its own effect resolves without effect, it may be that because Miracle Fertilizer itself is generating the special summon effect it is an exception or maybe rulings for PoD are not to be universally applied such as the PoD vs FF thing that contradicts other rulings.
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:09 AM   #14
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in the question number one, does solemn warning negating spy's effect, or negating spy's flip summon?
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:11 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyawehHoshikawa View Post
in the question number one, does solemn warning negating spy's effect, or negating spy's flip summon?
It doesn't matter
But you also see the word "Chain" which is most likely negating the effect
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:12 AM   #16
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Well, since Solemn Warning is being chained, they must obviously be talking about the activation of an effect.
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:20 AM   #17
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I like the subtle difference, as you could Destruction Jammer the Solemn Warning if it was chained to the effect of spy. Sorry about off topic, but I just had to mention it
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:24 AM   #18
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*opens thread*

*reaction*
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:17 AM   #19
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Sigh. If the activation of a card is negated, any lingering conditions will not be applied. If just the effect is negated, lingering conditions do apply. This is how Soul Exchange and Scapegoat have been ruled for ages.
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman View Post
Sigh. If the activation of a card is negated, any lingering conditions will not be applied. If just the effect is negated, lingering conditions do apply. This is how Soul Exchange and Scapegoat have been ruled for ages.
We all know this. This situation is the reverse equation though. "Gravekeeper's Spy" has no lingering effects, and there are no posted rulings on this interaction.
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:24 AM   #21
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ok so regarding number 1, this doesnt mean that if a player synchros and someone solemns it they can still activate POD right?
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:25 AM   #22
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Wow this helps so much. I always end up asking someone rulings about this when something like this happens, and then we get disagreements about the correct ruling. Not anymore, at least for this topic.
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:26 AM   #23
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Quote:
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ok so regarding number 1, this doesnt mean that if a player synchros and someone solemns it they can still activate POD right?
No they can't. That's a completely different type of Summon though.
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