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Old 05-30-2010, 11:27 AM   #1
ZaberFangX
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Default Morphing Jar

Hey guys, quick question. I'm at a local tourney and they have ruled it that if either player has no cards in their hand, then MJ cannot activate. I don't think this is right, could somebody verify.
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Old 05-30-2010, 11:34 AM   #2
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That ruling was wrong. Morphing Jar can/will activate; it is a mandatory effect. And since it activated, it will resolve to the best of its ability. Can't discard, no problem... Still draw 5.
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Old 05-30-2010, 12:02 PM   #3
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Exactly. Even if you have no cards to discard you will still draw 5. All it does is refresh your hand.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:05 PM   #4
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Mind if you explain further. Other than it is just a mandatory effect. Seeing as no one else has been able to explain beyond it just works this way and it is a special ruling that defies other rulings then I see no reason to change my ruling. As well let's just say another thing is the ruling a head judge at a tournament hands out is final and frankly you wanna complain Jim then don't come to the tournament. As well to the other person who doesn't like this ruling he can get over it. If you guys can explain thoroughly why it works this way then I would be happy to change my ruling.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by asuma89slicer View Post
Mind if you explain further. Other than it is just a mandatory effect. Seeing as no one else has been able to explain beyond it just works this way and it is a special ruling that defies other rulings then I see no reason to change my ruling. As well let's just say another thing is the ruling a head judge at a tournament hands out is final and frankly you wanna complain Jim then don't come to the tournament. As well to the other person who doesn't like this ruling he can get over it. If you guys can explain thoroughly why it works this way then I would be happy to change my ruling.
The discarding of the hand is not an activation requirement or cost for Morphing Jar to draw 5 cards. Both the discard and draw are assumed to happen at the same time as far as the game-state is concerned.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:14 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by asuma89slicer View Post
Mind if you explain further. Other than it is just a mandatory effect. Seeing as no one else has been able to explain beyond it just works this way and it is a special ruling that defies other rulings then I see no reason to change my ruling. As well let's just say another thing is the ruling a head judge at a tournament hands out is final and frankly you wanna complain Jim then don't come to the tournament. As well to the other person who doesn't like this ruling he can get over it. If you guys can explain thoroughly why it works this way then I would be happy to change my ruling.
Oh, ignorant must be bliss. Or rather annoying. Okay lets look at it this way, do you think you can't activate Morphing Jar's effect if you have less than 5 cards in your deck as well? If we were using that logic then this ruling would not exist.

* If there are fewer than 5 cards in the Deck of either player when this card's Flip Effect is activated, that player will lose the Duel, since the text of this card says "draw".[1]

Its a MANDATORY EFFECT [meaning that it HAS to activate regardless of what happens] I don't understand what is so hard to understand about that.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:19 PM   #7
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However you guys say that it is mandatory, but it does not say you must it just says you do. As well I am not saying it is a cost but other cards that say you discard something and are not costs still require some card to drop, but as you guys state that Morphing Jar is an exception. But frankly that isn't good enough. Besides you say everything happens at the same time but it states "FLIP: Both players discard their hands, then draw 5 cards." It is saying you do one before the other. So regardless your argument that the effects activate simultaneously is wrong.

Additional Comment:

As well on the statement of the drawing if it is something your opponent causes then you have no control over it, but you yourself if you have less than the 5 cards in your deck then you can't activate it yourself, but if they activate it themselves by attacking for example then you just screwed yourself. The thing is that there is a ruling that you are unable to do something that would cause your loss. Just like you can't activate Tremendous Fire if you have less than 500 lp.

Last edited by asuma89slicer : 05-30-2010 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by asuma89slicer View Post
However you guys say that it is mandatory, but it does not say you must it just says you do. As well I am not saying it is a cost but other cards that say you discard something and are not costs still require some card to drop, but as you guys state that Morphing Jar is an exception. But frankly that isn't good enough. Besides you say everything happens at the same time but it states "FLIP: Both players discard their hands, then draw 5 cards." It is saying you do one before the other. So regardless your argument that the effects activate simultaneously is wrong.
Going by the most recent printing of Morphing Jar in Japanese (I rarely look at English card text because Konami ***** it up half the time or I'll look at it when there is TCG/OCG discrepancies), you are infact correct and I was in the wrong. I was confusing it with cards similar to it such as Morphtronic Accelerator (the destroy 1 card + draw 1 happen "at the same time").

Also:
Quote:
However you guys say that it is mandatory, but it does not say you must it just says you do.
This is how mandatory effects are worded. Wulf, for example, doesn't speficically say you "must" summon it, but you still have to based on the way it (being a mandatory effect) is worded.

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As well on the statement of the drawing if it is something your opponent causes then you have no control over it, but you yourself if you have less than the 5 cards in your deck then you can't activate it yourself, but if they activate it themselves by attacking for example then you just screwed yourself. The thing is that there is a ruling that you are unable to do something that would cause your loss. Just like you can't activate Tremendous Fire if you have less than 500 lp.
Ok this just doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not trying to sound mean but you do not understand how effects like this work. Tremendous Fire was like, for the longest time, the only way for a game to end in a Draw. You're confusing these sorts of effects with costs. You can't play Brain Control and kill yourself when you have 800 LP because you can't pay the cost. You can play Tremendous Fire and kill yourself at 500 LP because the damage to the player using it is part of the card's effect.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:27 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by PsychicKid View Post
Going by the most recent printing of Morphing Jar in Japanese (I rarely look at English card text because Konami ***** it up half the time or I'll look at it when there is TCG/OCG discrepancies), you are infact correct and I was in the wrong. I was confusing it with cards similar to it such as Morphtronic Accelerator (the destroy 1 card + draw 1 happen "at the same time").

Also:

This is how mandatory effects are worded. Wulf, for example, doesn't speficically say you "must" summon it, but you still have to based on the way it (being a mandatory effect) is worded.



Ok this just doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not trying to sound mean but you do not understand how effects like this work. Tremendous Fire was like, for the longest time, the only way for a game to end in a Draw. You're confusing these sorts of effects with costs. You can't play Brain Control and kill yourself when you have 800 LP because you can't pay the cost. You can play Tremendous Fire and kill yourself at 500 LP because the damage to the player using it is part of the card's effect.
Wow I have to say I am surprised you aren't aware of the fact that you can't activate an effect that would kill you. As well wulf is not a very good example of this to even do his second effect you must meet the first condition. Frankly that just supports my point.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:27 PM   #10
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Tremendous Fire is an optional effect, as is the effect of every normal spell you activate from your hand...

Since it's an effect, you can activate it regardless of whether or not it'd make you lose. This is different from activating cards with costs you cannot pay or effects you cannot properly resolve.

But this really has nothing to do with Morphing Jar, whos effect is mandatory, meaning it it must activate if it was triggered, and will resolve to the best of its ability like every other FLIP: effect.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by asuma89slicer View Post
Wow I have to say I am surprised you aren't aware of the fact that you can't activate an effect that would kill you. As well wulf is not a very good example of this to even do his second effect you must meet the first condition. Frankly that just supports my point.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:41 PM   #12
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Ok point taken with the Ring of Destruction and Tremendous Fire. However every example you have cited so far has a first step that must be completed before you can go to the next step. As well if my point is correct then the part of discarding your hand is pretty important as well. The thing is I have heard that you have a hand even if you have 0 cards, but the definition of a hand is the accumulation of card(s) that you have in your possession that is not on the field, graveyard, deck, extra deck, or side deck.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asuma89slicer View Post
Wow I have to say I am surprised you aren't aware of the fact that you can't activate an effect that would kill you. As well wulf is not a very good example of this to even do his second effect you must meet the first condition. Frankly that just supports my point.
Just to be sure you know that mandatory effects are be activated, even if they kill you. From the Morphing Jar rulings...
Quote:


Morphing Jar - Who loses first? Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:03 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Player A has a set Morphing Jar and 4 cards in their Deck. Player B has an ATK
Position Don Zaloog and 3 cards in their Deck. It is Player B's turn and he
attacks the face-down Morphing Jar. Now, when MJ resolves what will be the
correct result?
A: The game will result in a Draw as neither player was able to draw 5 for
Morphing Jar
B: Player B will lose the game due to being the first player unable to draw?
Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Answer:
If you have 4 cards left in your Deck and your opponent has 3 cards left in their
Deck when "Morphing Jar's" effect is resolved, the Duel will end in a draw
because both players will not be able to draw a card when they are required to.
---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:49 PM   #14
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Just to be sure you know that mandatory effects are be activated, even if they kill you. From the Morphing Jar rulings...
Yeah I kinda made the point this can happen. The fact that your opponent is unaware of what it is then they can attack without an issue.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:51 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by asuma89slicer View Post
Mind if you explain further. Other than it is just a mandatory effect. Seeing as no one else has been able to explain beyond it just works this way and it is a special ruling that defies other rulings then I see no reason to change my ruling. As well let's just say another thing is the ruling a head judge at a tournament hands out is final and frankly you wanna complain Jim then don't come to the tournament. As well to the other person who doesn't like this ruling he can get over it. If you guys can explain thoroughly why it works this way then I would be happy to change my ruling.
Regardless of whether or not you have the ruling correct, you should never act this way when representing Yugioh and Konami, which you are when you judge. You should always be open to constructive criticism and accept things as a chance to learn rather than tell players not to come back if they don't like the rulings.

And now on to the ruling. Morphing Jar has a flip effect. A flip effect is essentially a trigger effect that happens when the monster is flipped face up. Morphing Jar is mandatory. That means when its trigger is met, it MUST activate, regardless of whether or not it can resolve. So, when Morphing Jar is flipped face-up, the game state will recognize the flip effect and it will go on the chain, regardless of whether it can resolve fully. This is demonstrated by a ruling under Protector of the Sanctuary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protector of the Sanctuary rulings
If "Protector of the Sanctuary" is on the field, then Flip Effects like "Morphing Jar" will still activate because they must activate when the monster is flipped (whether it was Flip Summoned, flipped by an attack, or flipped by "Book of Taiyou", etc.).
So we know it goes on the chain. So what happens next? Is Morphing Jar a standard monster and you do as much as possible? Or is it one of those weird one where you do all or nothing? Well, lucky for us, there is another ruling under Protector of the Sanctuary that tells us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protector of the Sanctuary rulings
If "Morphing Jar"'s effect activates, then both players discard their hands, but if you control "Protector of the Sanctuary", your opponent does not draw a new hand.
It is a standard effect. Resolve as much as possible. So how does that apply to this situation? It means if you have no hand, then all you do is draw five.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:51 PM   #16
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Yeah I kinda made the point this can happen. The fact that your opponent is unaware of what it is then they can attack without an issue.
You say that like a FLIP: effect is something a player can voluntarily activate. This is not the case; it simply happens when it's triggered, no questions asked.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:53 PM   #17
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I saw that "Pojo Newbie" and lost interest. But you got me reading for a while there. Nice troll. >_>
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:58 PM   #18
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Asuma89,
I am assuming you were the HJ for the local event? If so, first our thanks for volunteering. There are several very experienced judges in your area (Indiana, right?) who probably would enjoy helping mentor you. I would enjoy putting you in contact with them. Please PM me if interested.

Hiya Robert! Looks like I volunteered for Nats again. See you there!
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:58 PM   #19
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Ok as for your statement I can say what I wish and I tell people that if they don't like the way our tournament is then don't come for a reason. Frankly I don't need people coming in and complaining on a regular basis. It is hard enough sometimes being a judge I don't need someone coming in causing trouble. As well as far as I have seen as the step structure of effects you must complete one step to move onto the next step. However since you have no cards in your hand you have no hand so you can't move onto the next step.
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Old 05-30-2010, 04:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asuma89slicer View Post
As well as far as I have seen as the step structure of effects you must complete one step to move onto the next step. However since you have no cards in your hand you have no hand so you can't move onto the next step.
Quote:
Both the discard and draw are assumed to happen at the same time as far as the game-state is concerned.
So where is this 'Move onto the next step' coming from. When there is only 1 step in the first place.

Doesn't matter if you have 0 cards in hand, your opponent has 0, or you both have 0. You will discard your hand, if any is there. Then both draw a new hand of 5. This is mandatory, you will do it as much as possible. Nothing gameplay wise or ruling-wise in this situation says otherwise.
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Old 05-30-2010, 04:13 PM   #21
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So where is this 'Move onto the next step' coming from. When there is only 1 step in the first place.

Doesn't matter if you have 0 cards in hand, your opponent has 0, or you both have 0. You will discard your hand, if any is there. Then both draw a new hand of 5. This is mandatory, you will do it as much as possible. Nothing gameplay wise or ruling-wise in this situation says otherwise.
I'm technically wrong on that they happen "at the same time" due to the Japanese wording* of the card, but it's still a mandatory effect that resolves as much as it can. Another example is Jain. If you have 2 cards left in your deck and use his effect, you mill 2. If you have 1 card, you mill 1. If you have 0 cards, you mill 0. Nothing else changes, it just resolves as much as possible.

*Japanese Morphing Jar from SD13 (most recent Japanese reprint) translates as: FLIP: You and your opponent discard your entire hands. Afterwards, you both draw 5 cards from your respective decks.
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Old 05-30-2010, 04:17 PM   #22
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Eh, doesn't matter.

What matters is that Morphing Jar's effect will always discard both players hand and get them to draw 5, regardless of hand size.
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Old 05-30-2010, 05:19 PM   #23
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Morphing Jar will always give you 5 new cards, doesn't matter how many cards you got in hand. Its been like that since Morphing Jar came out.
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Old 05-30-2010, 05:36 PM   #24
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Ok as for your statement I can say what I wish and I tell people that if they don't like the way our tournament is then don't come for a reason. Frankly I don't need people coming in and complaining on a regular basis. It is hard enough sometimes being a judge I don't need someone coming in causing trouble. As well as far as I have seen as the step structure of effects you must complete one step to move onto the next step. However since you have no cards in your hand you have no hand so you can't move onto the next step.
So, you are saying that you refuse to listen to the correct ruling and continue ruling Morphing Jar incorrectly because you are tired of hearing complaints about incorrect ruling? Well, maybe those complaints wouln't happen in the first place if you would LISTEN and starting ruling CORRECTLY. Morphing Jar WILL cause both players to draw 5 even if they had zero cards prior to the discard effect.
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Old 05-30-2010, 07:40 PM   #25
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Ok as for your statement I can say what I wish and I tell people that if they don't like the way our tournament is then don't come for a reason. Frankly I don't need people coming in and complaining on a regular basis. It is hard enough sometimes being a judge I don't need someone coming in causing trouble. As well as far as I have seen as the step structure of effects you must complete one step to move onto the next step. However since you have no cards in your hand you have no hand so you can't move onto the next step.
I'm sorry to say this but your either a fool or a troll. I let initial ignorance slide by as I am never against anyone learning. But to blatantly ignore the facts when they are presented in a clear and concise fashion in unacceptable.

If you cant handle or do your job as a Judge properly than stop complaining and don't do it. As far as you have seen? You haven't seen anything at all. Your blind as far I can tell.

You draw five cards if you can regardless of hand size it's that simple. I don't know what's left for argument.
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