demise king of armagedon

[adam......]

who thinks that demise should be become band or limited. i do, because he is to powerfull. and megamorph should also become band another really good card that should be band.

[Blood Lotus]

About Demise, I want him out, and wouldn't mind to take out Megamorph.

I also want Pot of Greed back.

[The Quiff]

Banning Megamorph and Cyber Twin Dragon are also viable alternatives to banning Demise itself, given that both are used for nothing but one-turn-kills.

[Fatduelist]

Actually, Cyber Twin Dragon has a very important place in cyber dragon decks and also in gadget decks (for use with future fusion). Banning Demise is the way to go.

[The Quiff]

Themed Cyber Dragon decks aren't important to the competitive game, so we need not worry about them.

[Fatduelist]

Originally Posted by The Quiff

Themed Cyber Dragon decks aren't important to the competitive game, so we need not worry about them.

actually, ANY themed decks that can be competitive are important to the competitive game, therefore that's what we SHOULD worry about. I'm a theme deck player, and a damn good one, and firmly believe themes should be the main focus of any tcg.

[The Quiff]

Themes are only as good as the cards that are made for them. Themes that are full of poorly-implemented cards will NEVER be competitive - and the Cyber Dragon-themed cards are riddled with poor cards.

All Cyber Dragon decks have going for them are Cyber Dragons and it's fusions. Future Fusion is restricted, for one, and not highly search-able either. Meaning it's currently inconsistent. None of the other Fusion methods are highly consistent at all (e.g. Power Bond) to warrant worrying about, with respect to a Cyber Dragon deck.

The only other fusion that can help is Chimeratech Overdragon, but that's a one-turn-kill that deserves banning on it's own merits. But I digress.

By banning Cyber Twin, the competitive game doesn't lose out on anything it shouldn't.

[The Quiff]

Cyber Phoenix and Limiter Removal are more generic Machine cards than anything else. And to digress, Limiter Removal has a lot of "lucksacking" one-turn-kill potential, thus it's worth of a ban on it's own merits. But I digress once more. The actual Cyber Dragon theme is poorly thought out, and there are no two ways around it. It's a dead duck.

Cyber Twin Dragon hasn't seen any use other than one-turn-kills, and that's all there is to it. But banning the sucker, the competitive metagame doesn't lose out, except for another unskilful one-turn-kill deck.

Demise, King of Armageddon has other uses in that it can punish over-extension, when it is not being used as a catalyst for a one-turn-kill.

[Serotonin]

I have to agree with all points. The only time that Cyber Twin comes into play in competitive play is when forced into play by some fusion trick. That makes it ban worthy because even if you just ban Demise someone will find another way to abuse Cyber Twin, that is how Demise came along after Stein went away. On the other hand, the demise OTK deck and win with out Twin or rip some other rediculous 8 star fusion monster into play to win the game. It might be alittle harder but not as hard as you might think. With that said I think that Demise should be ban.

[GOLIATH]

Bring back Mind Crush and Demise is nothing. Banning Demise? Yeah right...

[Pharaoh Atem]

Explain to me why Cybertheme users deserve to have Cyber Twin Dragon be a viable, competitive threat.

If the card itself isn't competitive in the Cybertheme deck because the theme itself is too bad to stand up to the best decks of the meta, but is competitive in the best decks of the meta through nontheme means, it's NOT helping the Cybertheme enough to be kept legal at the cost of a good meta.

Twin also doesn't bring any skill to the game; rather, every time it has been competitive, it's made the meta worse by increasing the force of OTKs.

Now, IF the Cybertheme had a consistent deck in competitive play, how wouldn't it help a new OTK style come forth?

[The Krystal King]

personally i think demise should be banned as well as Megamorph (all itll ever be good for is an OTK) and Limiter should be banned to for the same reason

[SilentMagician7]

Banned:

Metamorphosis
Demise, King of Armageddon

Restricted:

Megamorph

Problem Solved...

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by GOLIATH

Bring back Mind Crush and Demise is nothing. Banning Demise? Yeah right...

Even if Demise were banned and Mind Crush unrestricted, I would still be using x3 Mind Crushes just to **** hands. You have to take that into account..Mind Crush would be abused to no end.

[Pharaoh Atem]

Originally Posted by SilentMagician7

Banned:

Metamorphosis
Demise, King of Armageddon

Restricted:

Megamorph

Problem Solved...

Demise only merits prohibition for the sake of making sure that it'll never enable another OTK.

Metamorphosis itself has merited no blame. It leads to Twin; however, we already know that Twin brings no good to a metagame when consistent, whereas consistent Morph can and will bring skillful methods. Morph v. Twin shows us that Morph is better for the game, and therefore Twin gets the axe over it. (Twin has also been in two OTKs on a consistent level so far; there's no reason to permit a #3.)

Megamorph merits prohibition for the sake of making sure that it'll never enable another OTK. (It, like Twin, has been in 2 consistent OTKs; give me a reason to let #3 come.) Someone somehow making "Iron Blacksmith Kotetsu" into a consistent tool would serve to make the Limit completely useless, instead of just "there", and we don't need to take this chance.

[SilentMagician7]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh Atem

Demise only merits prohibition for the sake of making sure that it'll never enable another OTK.

Metamorphosis itself has merited no blame. It leads to Twin; however, we already know that Twin brings no good to a metagame when consistent, whereas consistent Morph can and will bring skillful methods. Morph v. Twin shows us that Morph is better for the game, and therefore Twin gets the axe over it. (Twin has also been in two OTKs on a consistent level so far; there's no reason to permit a #3.)

Megamorph merits prohibition for the sake of making sure that it'll never enable another OTK. (It, like Twin, has been in 2 consistent OTKs; give me a reason to let #3 come.) Someone somehow making "Iron Blacksmith Kotetsu" into a consistent tool would serve to make the Limit completely useless, instead of just "there", and we don't need to take this chance.

So you blame Cyber Twin Dragon for everything? I can agree with you really.
However I still have a little soft spot for Cyber Twin so I would hate to see it go lol. When you look at the whole picture you can see that in the Demise otk, the end result is Cyber Twin Dragon doing the KO'ing. However...what brings that fusion monster out? Metamorphosis of course. I wanna call Metamorphosis the medium and the true problem behind Cyber Twin Dragon. Who will use Power Bond in a Demise OTK? No one. So if Metamorphosis goes then there won't be a Cyber Twin Dragon to worry about.

Then theres Megamorph which can achieve what Cyber Twin Dragon wants to do. You mentioned Iron Blacksmith. You could search for Megamorph with that card and then create the OTK once again. Well, you could just ban Megamorph and be on your merry way or just restrict it. That is up to Konami really.....I still believe Cyber Twin Dragon shouldn't be punished when you can simply take Metamorphosis out of the equation and be done with it.

[Pharaoh Atem]

Originally Posted by SilentMagician7

So you blame Cyber Twin Dragon for everything? I can agree with you really.
However I still have a little soft spot for Cyber Twin so I would hate to see it go lol. When you look at the whole picture you can see that in the Demise otk, the end result is Cyber Twin Dragon doing the KO'ing. However...what brings that fusion monster out? Metamorphosis of course. I wanna call Metamorphosis the medium and the true problem behind Cyber Twin Dragon. Who will use Power Bond in a Demise OTK? No one. So if Metamorphosis goes then there won't be a Cyber Twin Dragon to worry about.

But you've never explained why we should blame Morph over Twin.

I, however, have explained why we should blame Twin over Morph.

There's really not much room for those who have "soft spots" - A better metagame is more important than anyone's soft spots. I've told people before; I've got my own favorite cards, and would Limit/Prohibit those favorites in a heartbeat for the sake of a better game overall. Anyone not willing to do that can be seen as greedy at the very least.

Then theres Megamorph which can achieve what Cyber Twin Dragon wants to do. You mentioned Iron Blacksmith. You could search for Megamorph with that card and then create the OTK once again. Well, you could just ban Megamorph and be on your merry way or just restrict it. That is up to Konami really.....

This forum does not deal with what is up to Konami. It deals with what Konami should-do-but-will-not-do-because-it-doesn't-know-what-should-be-done-as-well-as-we-do.

If Konami knew what the hell it were doing, Goes and Norleras wouldn't exist, Stratos wouldn't have been able to recruit itself, and Time Seal would never have been prohibited.

The "it's up to Konami" point is useless; we know that Konami will do what it likes, and we don't care, because we know better solutions than what Konami would choose anyway.

I still believe Cyber Twin Dragon shouldn't be punished when you can simply take Metamorphosis out of the equation and be done with it.

That's a nice belief. It's an inferior one until you can point out why it isn't.


If I seem like I'm coming down on you really harshly, don't think that; I'm just frustrated at seeing the same arguments out of people when I've dispatched them time-and-again. I'm thinking that the Twin v. Morph debacle might deserve its own topic if people want to keep saying "Keep Twin because I deserve a 2800 Double Attacker no matter what", instead of looking at how broken Twin could be in the right conditions.

I may need to make that Twin v. Morph topic to end the debate once and for all. Maybe someone might make a good argument in favor of prohibiting Morph for once...

[envi]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh Atem

But you've never explained why we should blame Morph over Twin.

I, however, have explained why we should blame Twin over Morph.

I think what he means is this: Without Twin, Morph players will find another Fusion monster with good stats and a cool effect that they can Morph stuff into. Without Morph, Twin won't be (able to be) played (by Morph, because Morph is gone), except through "real" standards, i.e. Power Bond and Polymerization.

[SilentMagician7]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh Atem

But you've never explained why we should blame Morph over Twin.

I, however, have explained why we should blame Twin over Morph.

There's really not much room for those who have "soft spots" - A better metagame is more important than anyone's soft spots. I've told people before; I've got my own favorite cards, and would Limit/Prohibit those favorites in a heartbeat for the sake of a better game overall. Anyone not willing to do that can be seen as greedy at the very least.




This forum does not deal with what is up to Konami. It deals with what Konami should-do-but-will-not-do-because-it-doesn't-know-what-should-be-done-as-well-as-we-do.

If Konami knew what the hell it were doing, Goes and Norleras wouldn't exist, Stratos wouldn't have been able to recruit itself, and Time Seal would never have been prohibited.

The "it's up to Konami" point is useless; we know that Konami will do what it likes, and we don't care, because we know better solutions than what Konami would choose anyway.



That's a nice belief. It's an inferior one until you can point out why it isn't.


If I seem like I'm coming down on you really harshly, don't think that; I'm just frustrated at seeing the same arguments out of people when I've dispatched them time-and-again. I'm thinking that the Twin v. Morph debacle might deserve its own topic if people want to keep saying "Keep Twin because I deserve a 2800 Double Attacker no matter what", instead of looking at how broken Twin could be in the right conditions.

I may need to make that Twin v. Morph topic to end the debate once and for all. Maybe someone might make a good argument in favor of prohibiting Morph for once...

Honestly, I agree with you. Just in my own eyes, I'm seeing Morph as the culprit here. Dark Balter, Ryu Senshi, Cyber Twin Himself can all be abused by Morph. Not a single soul would ever use those cards if Metamorphosis didn't exist. Thats basically what I'm saying. Cyber Twin Dragon is only to blame when one is able to summon it without giving up two cards and a normal summon(Cyber Dragon and Light Hex Sealed Fusion) or giving up three cards(Cyber Dragon, Power Bond/Polyermization, and another Cyber Dragon). Future Fusion would be destroyed before Cyber Twin hit play or Cyber Twin Dragon would be destroyed upon summon. Cyber Twin Dragon was only abused because of the methods used to cheat its summoning.

Goes is indeed broken. One can go from 1 monster to five in a single turn(looking from a Strike Ninja perspective that is). I agree with you on Stratos and Norleras as well. Just that Cyber Twin Dragon, being a fusion monster, requires a bit of work to summon it. Cards like Metamorphosis and Cyber Stein made it too easy and abusable....

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by uchiha_itachi

I think what he means is this: Without Twin, Morph players will find another Fusion monster with good stats and a cool effect that they can Morph stuff into. Without Morph, Twin won't be (able to be) played (by Morph, because Morph is gone), except through "real" standards, i.e. Power Bond and Polymerization.

He got it.

[envi]

Yeah, just as I thought: people dont want to invest Polymerization + 2 CyDras for a 2800 atker. they want to use Morph to bring it out with a monster largely of their choice and Morph itself instead. If Morph isn't there, people will not only pass off Twin as useless to them, theyll start passing off ALL fusions as completely worthless as well.

[SilentMagician7]

Originally Posted by uchiha_itachi

Yeah, just as I thought: people dont want to invest Polymerization + 2 CyDras for a 2800 atker. they want to use Morph to bring it out with a monster largely of their choice and Morph itself instead. If Morph isn't there, people will not only pass off Twin as useless to them, theyll start passing off ALL fusions as completely worthless as well.

Exactly my thoughts. Take out Metamorphosis from the picture and you no longer have abuse.

[Pharaoh Atem]

Originally Posted by uchiha_itachi

I think what he means is this: Without Twin, Morph players will find another Fusion monster with good stats and a cool effect that they can Morph stuff into. Without Morph, Twin won't be (able to be) played (by Morph, because Morph is gone), except through "real" standards, i.e. Power Bond and Polymerization.

Ok, and without Megamorph, how will that Morphmonster be a problem?

Prohibiting Morph solely on the principle that people should be able to summon Fusions only through Fusion Summon means will not fly here; there's no metagame grounds for it, as TER Morph was not a metagame problem for the game's elite; this is the very first time that Morph is undoubtedly even close to being a problem.

Another case:

If Morph is dead and Twin does not see competitive play because of that, we have accomplished a dead Twin in competitive play, which is exactly the same effect caused by prohibiting it directly. To prohibit Morph will, in effect, prohibit BOTH cards until someone makes Twin consistent again.

Third case:

Explain why Twin should ever be consistent. As long as it is legal, it stands a shot of consistency; 2800 double attackers are not naturally "ok" once proven to be as easy as Twin unless defense REALLY takes a kick upward, and even with that boost in defense, ways for Twin to make a meta worse may still exist.

Originally Posted by SilentMagician7

Just in my own eyes, I'm seeing Morph as the culprit here. Dark Balter, Ryu Senshi, Cyber Twin Himself can all be abused by Morph.

Problem #1:

Burden of proof lies upon you to show that Balter and Senshi could ever be abusive. Unlike the proven-to-be-abusive Twin, their stats are manageable and they do not lend to OTKs.

Not a single soul would ever use those cards if Metamorphosis didn't exist.

So what?

Thats basically what I'm saying. Cyber Twin Dragon is only to blame when one is able to summon it without giving up two cards and a normal summon(Cyber Dragon and Light Hex Sealed Fusion) or giving up three cards(Cyber Dragon, Power Bond/Polyermization, and another Cyber Dragon).

Ad hominem; Fusion Summon and/or Hex and/or Inferior-Summon users should have access to OTK tools, whereas those who like the superior Morph method just because of consistency should not?

Further, this stems back to the "Should Twin ever be consistent" argument. Prove that point's superiority to the "OTKs are bad" status-quo.

Next, the Advanced Format's list shouldn't be built to cater to the interests of decks that won't be consistent enough to win all the time anyway. If Twin is consistent, its legality is inexcusable; If Twin is inconsistent, it's just as dead to us as a prohibited card ANYWAY until someone makes it consistent.


If someone wants to have fun with Twin, I welcome them to do so outside of the bounds of an amazing format. No one has to play by Advanced all the time; It's because of such that I reccomend people have their fun duels outside of it, where invites, prizes, et cetera are not on the line.

Some folks don't care about prizes and such; the player who does care, yet has their weekend ruined by a format's bad points, shouldn't have to deal with those bad points any longer.

Future Fusion would be destroyed before Cyber Twin hit play or Cyber Twin Dragon would be destroyed upon summon. Cyber Twin Dragon was only abused because of the methods used to cheat its summoning.

And why should it ever have the chance to be abused again? Surely you aren't going to reccomend that all non-Fusion-Summon methods are prohibited to prevent the problem...? If so, defend that against the simplicity of just ending Twin and asking Twin fans to enjoy it outside of Advanced.

After all, "outside Advanced" doesn't immediately equal "Traditional" - playing with friends on one's own time can allow players to enjoy their own formats.

Just that Cyber Twin Dragon, being a fusion monster, requires a bit of work to summon it. Cards like Metamorphosis and Cyber Stein made it too easy and abusable....

Twin's status as a Fusion Monster doesn't mean a damn thing when considering it for prohibition, simply because that status has not prevented it from being a problem, and there's no guarantee that it'll magically start doing so. The only guarantee to the end of Twin problems is the end of Twin.

[Magistra Negi]

Most of you are making zero logical sense. I'm just gonna break down the whole issue for the benefit of all involved.

Demise has seen use by multiple people in semi-competitive decks over time that sought to use him as extension control and a strong aggressive push. The deck takes a large amount of skill to build and play. It's not quite Tier 1, and probably never will be, but it's the kind of posititve influence this game needs more of.

Advanced Ritual Art is the Ritual support we've all wanted for ages. It makes summoning any Ritual monster a much easier task, and thus makes the investment into a casual Ritual deck worth it from time to time, something everyone has been asking for.

Metamorphosis is one of the more skilled cards in the game as of now. When used properly, it can ensure big pushes succeed and big plays get made. When used incorrectly, it can easily turn into a -2 and seal a loss for the offending player. It has been a positive influence in multiple different ways throughout its existence in the Yu-Gi-Oh! game, including being the centerpiece of the most skilled format this game has ever had.

Cyber Twin Dragon has seen 3 types of play. The first and most obvious is as an OTK center-piece for Demise OTK and Stein OTK before that. The second is as teched OTK card in decks using either the infamous Tech-Stein or Metamorphosis and a lvl.8 monster of some form, the most recent example of this being T's Destiny Hero-powered Aggro deck he's been making Top 8 with. The third is in Cyber Dragon themed decks, where it served alongside Cyber End Dragon to give an otherwise useless deck random OTK possibilities, thus pulling out the occassional win.

Megamorph has seen two types of play in its rather long stay in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG. It was the centerpiece for the first unique Tier 1 deck, Suicide Beatdown. I doubt many of you remember that, but it used Dark Elf and Megamorph to rapidly dish out large amounts of damage. The only other use it's ever had is that of OTK enabler for Cyber-Stein and now Demise.

Now CTD is has a negative effect on the game even in themed Cyber Dragon decks, and serves no positive purpose at all. It should be axed of its own accord due to the amount of OTK possibilities it has opened up over the course of its existence. And if you really want to play CTD in your themed Cyber Dragon deck, go for it. It's not like the Yu-Gi-Oh! Police are gonna come arrest you for playing a banned card against your friend in a casual game, which is the only place Cyber Dragon decks should see any play.

Megamorph is in the exact same boat, except it does not have a themed deck to cling onto. It's just an OTK enabler and should be treated as such and eliminated without a second thought by anyone. It has no posititve worth to anyone.

Now, with both of those cards already banned of their own accord, the Demise OTK can no longer function in the least. It would require a minimum 5-card combo that includes multiples of ARA, Demise, Shinato/Masked Beast, and Doom Dozer. That deck is officially useless. As such, Demise, Metamorphosis and ARA would be in no need of either banning or limitation, and should not be for the posititve reasons described earlier in this post.

If you have any intelligent questions, feel free to ask. If you cannot understand this post, feel free to make an idiot of yourself. If you do not agree with me, feel free to post a well thought out and friendly counter-argument.

[envi]

Third case:

Explain why Twin should ever be consistent. As long as it is legal, it stands a shot of consistency; 2800 double attackers are not naturally "ok" once proven to be as easy as Twin unless defense REALLY takes a kick upward, and even with that boost in defense, ways for Twin to make a meta worse may still exist.

Twin is only "easy" with Metamorphosis as far as the current meta is concerned.

Not a single soul would ever use those cards if Metamorphosis didn't exist.
So what?

So Morph is the problem and Twin isn't. The point is: People are ONLY PLAYING Twin because they have Morph, an easy way to get it out. If Twin gets banned but Morph untouched, nothing will be accomplished; people will find another broken Fusion to abuse with Morph (and there's a lot, believe me).

Morph is what makes all of this possible. If Morph didn't exist, NO Fusions would EVER see ANY kind of competitive play; is what I'm trying to say.

[Pharaoh Atem]

Originally Posted by SatoshiMutouthethird

What's funny though is that banning Cyber Twin doesn't make much sense when our problem is DEMISE.

The problem with your point is that no one's ever proven how Demise is a problem if Twin and Megamorph don't exist.

It's not broken at all in the opinion of the game's best players, therefore meaning that it isn't broken period; opinions otherwise need to either surrender the point or somehow prove the best players wrong.

The only REAL reason to prohibit Demise is to prohibit it "just in case it could help out another OTK".

If you do not have Demise, how is Cyber Twin bad?

If you don't have Twin, how is Demise PROVEN to be bad?

There is no other OTK you can make with him.

Prove the point. Twin has been accessory to OTKs in the past, and will STILL be able to OTK if left legal; the point of "it'll still OTK" has been proven for Twin so far, but not for Demise.

Demise is the only one, why does everyone want to skip around banning Demise for when that's our problem?

Because you've yet to prove that it truly IS the problem. Just because it is the enabler doesn't guarantee it to be a problem; Stein stood for quite a while to prove itself, and only really did when the Tech Stein plan came along.

Nobody has yet to give a reason why Demise should be legal over Cyber Twin.

Check Negi's post.

Cyber Twin is a broken Fusion but outside of Metamorphosis there is no way your ever going to see him hit the field.

And if it's broken through Morph, what reason is there to save it? It's broken in a way, and that's enough reason to nail it.

Technically, it's been broken through two ways now - Stein and Morph - and for that, should really merit consideration for killing.

NO WAY except Future Fusion which that is a really slow card and doesn't instantly provide you with the monster.

Not even Cybertheme decks deserve the capacity to OTK with Twin.

Just because a deck sucks as badly as Cybertheme doesn't mean that it deserves an OTK tool in an attempt to make it better. Hex doesn't make it forgivable; Polymerization doesn't make it forgivable.

This is because Cybertheme decks aren't consistent enough to matter when making the list. If Twin were left alone and Cybertheme didn't win games, the meta would be worse because Twin would still be an OTK option outside of Cybertheme, waiting for the next opportunity. Until someone made it into a good OTK tool again, it would be dead to us. Prohibited cards are just as dead to us, meaning that all we've had accomplished was a temporary solution.

Now, if Twin were left alone and Cybertheme miraculously got good, it'd be another reason to prohibit Twin, this time for being an OTK engine within its theme.

So like I said, why Demise over Cyber Twin?

Twin's committed the crime of making OTKs work twice now. We're thoroughly convinced that it'll continue being an OTK tool if ever given the chance.

Demise has done it only once, and actually has a few good metagame uses (as mentioned by Negi earlier).

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by SatoshiMutouthethird

Dropping Demise and blowing up the field and then following up with Doom Dozer is still just as broken. The deck goes from OTK to Progressive OTK all that needs to run instead of Mega and Meta is Burn cards like Wave Motion, Secret Barrels, or anything to make up for the lack of the extra damage.

That's called "not consistent", "not OTK", et cetera. Let people run Wave Motion and Barrels; Demise screws over them BOTH with its effect.

If a problem exists with dropping Demise and Dozer in the same turn, without Twin or Megamorph being legal, that problem is easy enough to fix by delimiting skilled removals and chainable defenses.

Further, the good old Waboku can cover for a turn, and removal can come through for a counterattack.

It would end up like DDT, stil living but not as powerful as before.

That would be "Demise", not "Demise OTK". No problems would exist.

There is no competive Demise decks out there except the OTK itself. I only seen one Demise deck ever with Phoenix and that speaks for itself. Demise is no doubt the most powerful Ritual in the game is really the only viable one because he overshadows all the rest. Why play Shinato? Hes gunna ram into a Sakuretsu. Relinquished I guess isn't bad but to base a whole deck around it isn't worth it. Only Zorc is the only ritual tailing Demise and he has the potential to backfire (yeah when you commit resources to a powerful card it should backfire on you with it's own effect LMAO). Reshef is almost good too but he's situational and if you already commited resources to not just playing rituals but to the cards to summon it, it's even worst when you gotta commit more for temporary control no less.

Ad hominem. You're saying we should consider prohibiting Demise because it's the first Good Ritual? Lol.

As long as Demise is legal, he will be abused no doubt.

That's the problem - you've yet to prove that Demise use is abuse. Hell, you've yet to prove that Demise and Dozer in the same turn is abuse; as is, it just sounds like a strong combo deserving of playability.

Cyber Twin may give him power but not priority over who should be banned first.

Your grammar is failing you. That sentence above helps ME out; replacing the proper pronouns with their proper nouns gives us the following.

"Cyber Twin may give him (Demise) power, but it does not give him (Demise) priority in who should be prohibited first."

In short, the above sentence says that Demise shouldn't be banned first.

Either learn how to say what you want without my help, or give up.

Additional Comment:

Originally Posted by uchiha_itachi

Twin is only "easy" with Metamorphosis as far as the current meta is concerned.

That doesn't answer the question.

The question was, at heart, "Does Twin ever deserve to make a metagame worse by being given the chance to be consistent?"

Answer it. Don't dance around it.

So Morph is the problem and Twin isn't.

Point unproven; Morph has good metagame use through the skillful manipulations of Balter/Senshi/Nightmare. Twin has no good metagame use. Morph can make a meta better; Twin cannot.

The point is: People are ONLY PLAYING Twin because they have Morph, an easy way to get it out.

So what? That doesn't immediately make Morph a problem.

Rather, people are only playing Morph in OTK right now because they have Twin to fetch with it. Morphbox isn't a skillless decktype, just one that is dead right now because of metagame factors. Hell, Morphbox is one of the most skillful control decks the game has ever seen, and salvaging it is easily a good metagame choice.

If Twin gets banned but Morph untouched, nothing will be accomplished; people will find another broken Fusion to abuse with Morph (and there's a lot, believe me).

That's because you find Morphbox abusive. The game's elite do not. We've got to follow them in List construction until you prove your point and show Morphbox to actually be abusive.

Morph is what makes all of this possible. If Morph didn't exist, NO Fusions would EVER see ANY kind of competitive play; is what I'm trying to say.

And you'd rather doom ALL fusions until someone comes up with a new Twin OTK?

That's obviously worse for the meta than just prohibiting Twin, and only serves to make the anti-Morph crowd happy.

[adam......]

i think that cybertwin and demise and also mega morph are going to become band.and ring of destruction.which stinks cause i like ring. but demise should be band or limited along with megamorph.