Manifestation of Power- Overrated? Underrated?

[Koli_Xela]

REI_019
Manifestation of Power
Pitch >>> Add two green furyoku.
1 Green Furyoku
3 Intercept 1 Force Strike
Rare
"Now, we'll show you losers the power of a real shaman's guardian ghost!"

Alright, people seem to be looking to this card to be a staple of every deck out there, the Furyoku gain it gives makes it find it's way into numerous decks that will inevitably be hurt for having it. Let's look at why I say this about what it tauted as one of the best cards in the set.

Pros:
1 Green Furyoku makes it incredibly Cheap to play.
Pitch effect means you will never have to focus it for one Furyoku.
Being unclassed means you can put it into ANY deck.

Cons:
With a 3 intercept you will rarely ever be able to use it to counter, it will not even stop the incoming attack.
A 1 force attack gives your opponent freedom to counter as they please, altering Int to make counter attack particularly nasty from ranged attacks or X-Laws decks.
Pitch effects move you to the next zone, meaning you will be giving your opponent an extra non green furyoku for using it.
In the Yellow zone you effectivly give up 1 Yellow for 2 Green for giving your opponent 1 Green 1 Yellow AND 1 Red, putting yourself at a Furyoku DISADVANTAGE.
In the Red Zone this attack will rarely ever allow you to counter attack thus giving your opponent a point, also if you can afford the point 2 Green is never a fair trade for 1 Red. Finally if you DO counter from the red your opponent gets GYR replenish and only has to account for a 1 Force manuver allowing them to counter at their pleasure.

If Pitch effects worked like playing an advantage and kept you in the same Zone this card would be a staple for every deck out there (I would run 4 in both of my current play decks) but as it doesn't this card is only to your advantage to be flipped in the green, any other tiem you flip this card you are harming yourself while helping your opponent. THIS BEING SAID I will not say this card is useless, there are decks that use this card to full effect. Mainly being Duncan decks basing wins on high powered Nergals Roars where 2 Furyoku is 2 Force no matter what color. Outside of a Duncan deck I do not see this card being worth running. Don't take my assessment to be the be all end all of cards I simply wish to state my opinion and see what others think. If you don't agree PLEASE reply with reasons. If you don't reply with reasons don't expect me to be kind in my response. I hope to hear back from those of you running this card main deck.

Koli

[Mitendrius]

Well play a Duncan Deck which primarily uses only grren furuku. This Card herefore is a great stable Card for me.

I think the Pitch is good like it is. So you have to decide if it s worth to sacrifice a zone or not. Else it wouldn t be so challanging

[Koli_Xela]

Originally Posted by Mitendrius

Well play a Duncan Deck which primarily uses only grren furuku. This Card herefore is a great stable Card for me.

I think the Pitch is good like it is. So you have to decide if it s worth to sacrifice a zone or not. Else it wouldn t be so challanging

Right as I said this card is good for a Duncan deck which focuses on having lots of Furyoku and not caring what color it is. HOWEVER I can not agree that the pitch is good as it is. With an intercept of 4 it would be worth running OR if pitch didnt cost you a zone. I won't argue that its ok for a Duncan deck but I'm hard pressed to say that 1 Green Furyoku is ever worth a zone especially if your looking at giving your opponent a red for doing it. In green its ok but in Yellow or Red it's not. I MIGHT run 2 in a Duncan deck but I don't think I would even then. Give me a reason for it to be worth playing.

Koli

[DanTheTimid]

I agree, manifestation of power is defiantly over rated. Its great in green, your breaking even in yellow, and its horrible in red. Decks that can afford it a little more then others are duncan decks and to a lesser extent body decks. Body in general have alot of green costs but also have alot of cards that boost intercept potentially making manifestation strong enough to actually deflect some things should it come up in your red. Duncan has nergals roar and also happens to be body thus if anyone were to use it Duncan would be the most likely candidate. Still its certaintly not staple worthy. My friend runs 4 manifests in his duncan deck and I'd say for every 1 time he pulls off that big nergals roar to win it theres atleast 2 times where manifestations coming up at inopportune times (such as in his red) caused him to lose it. You've really gotta make good use of having large sums of green to make manifestation worth your while, if you don't then the cons of running it usually out weight the pros. If it had had just 1 more intercept I think I would have run it, and obviously if pitched didn't cause you to drop a zone I defiantly would have ran it in 4s, but thats just not the case. Its an intriuging card, just not the most playable.

[siren]

Pitch>> Two Green.

Manifistation of Power is in my opinion the best card in the game. And for this current set is the closest thing to a raigeki or savage beatdown depending on your game of choice.

Because so many of the tournament calibur decks require more green furyoku than average this card is a must have. Sure it cant defend, but thats not what it is there for.

Green furyoku goes fast and having two extra is just godly, and all you're risking is the chance that you might flip this card into the red zone? Come on, I'll take 4 of these in any deck needing green furyoku.

Siren

[Koli_Xela]

Siren, no offense but did you even READ my post?

2 Green is good but considering how much chance you have of not gaining benefit from this card running it is rather risky, running more than 2 should not see competitive play outside Duncan decks. 66% of the time the benefit of flipping this card is outweighed by the negatives to your field AND the beneifts to your opponents. Not a staple card here, not the worst card in the set nor the worst rare but as it is now I would never expect to see it in a tournament deck outside a Duncan deck.

[siren]

Len Punisher decks should also be packing four of these. I mean its not for every deck, although because it is traitless you could put it in any deck. The fact is its the single most useful card for deck types. I dont think any other deck types can benefit from one card the way Len and Duncan decks can from this card.

Its traitless and it gives you two green. Ill take my chances of landing in the red but remember you have to be playing the right deck first.

Siren

[Koli_Xela]

I'll have to disagree with you there. I run a Len punisher deck (quite well thank you) and see no reason to run this card, it's against the deck theme. And you can not call this card the single most useful card.... DARK ASCENDANCE is 10* more useful and is the only card I could consider a staple. Granted its a 2G1Y but it's 4int 3 force and gives you the mana as well as countering (and yellow or red mana to boot) Manifestation of Power IS NOT the most useful card for any deck type. I would run 4 Dark Ascendace before I would EVER run 4 Manifestations.

Originally Posted by siren

Len Punisher decks should also be packing four of these. I mean its not for every deck, although because it is traitless you could put it in any deck. The fact is its the single most useful card for deck types. I dont think any other deck types can benefit from one card the way Len and Duncan decks can from this card.

Its traitless and it gives you two green. Ill take my chances of landing in the red but remember you have to be playing the right deck first.

Siren

[MercenaryOfDoom]

ROCKS!!! No question and I'm not saying that just because I've won 2 tournys with them

[Koli_Xela]

Not to sound like a broken record here but how about giving some comments to back up why this card "Rocks", I am trying to find any way, outside a Duncan beatdown deck, that this card should EVER see play, tho I thank you for your enlightening input :P

Koli

[siren]

This card rocks because it is traitless and give you two green from any zone.

In a recent issue of Inquest gamer they had two Shaman King decks. Trey and a Len punisher. BOTH decks used 4 MoP a piece.

MoP is a fast card that give you what you want with little drawbacks, except for moving to another zone. Getting that two extra green means everything, even if you give up a point.

MoP will be the current most saught after card in the game and at sites like shuffleandcut.com it is the most expensive single rare.

MoP is popular, its good, and itll be in the first major tournament winning deck I can promise you.

Although you might not think this card is good by itself, try putting 4 of them in a deck and see the tremendous advantage it gives you. You really have to playtest this card to see its full power.

Siren

[The Catalyst]

MoP will be the current most saught after card in the game and at sites like shuffleandcut.com it is the most expensive single rare.

Ooh! Well then, I'm happy I have one!

See, what gives this an advantage over Dark Ascendance is that this can always give you mana... you don't have to pay anything for it and hope the opponent's strike doesn't have more than 4 force. And don't forget you always have the opportunity to focus it instead of pitch it. That may be rather useful in the red zone...

*Sigh*... I'd love to have 4 for my deck, but I only have one... no one else in my area has one... I really should start trading here. I just need to make sure no one has problems with my giving out my adress to people I've never met...

[Koli_Xela]

Well I guess I will give this one up. I can lump Manifestation of Power into the pile of cards with Pot of Greed... Crap cards that everyone seems to think are godlike. I have the majority of people I play with convinced of how bad MoP is but you seem to have no problem losing matches to gaining 2 green and if so more power to you. I'd NEVER take 2 green over 1 red (pitching it in red as you said) but that's just me. I don't put cards in my deck that are inadequate to serve their main purpose. An int of 4 (or the oft mentioned corrected game mechanic that Pitching would not cause you to move a zone) would make this a staple card. As it stands all I can say is PLEASE keep running it. That makes 4 more cards in your 60 card deck I can rest easy not ever having to compete against. Maybe once MoP costs you a tournament you'll come join the dark side with me, maybe not. Either way I'm sure MoP will give me a game I should have lost at least once this month.

Koli

[The Catalyst]

Well I guess I will give this one up. I can lump Manifestation of Power into the pile of cards with Pot of Greed... Crap cards that everyone seems to think are godlike.

Pot of Greed is NOT crap... that much should be painfully obvious. Any card that gives you two free more cards (in a game that does use a hand) can NOT be crap. It replaces itself and then some... for free.

And as for taking 2 Green over 1 Red... um... I believe if anything, I just said you COULD. I never said you SHOULD. Most of the time, players will want to focus this in red and take the point rather than pitch and take the point.

And you really shouldn't be treating these as strikes when building your deck... they go into the group with Lilala and perhaps a couple others which have effects much like advantages, but are... not advantages. If you get the idea. They sort of go into their own class.

Oh, and Koli... if you don't want your MoP's, I'm willing to take them off your hands!

[DanTheTimid]

o.O Pot of Greed crap? Dang that was a horrible way to back up your point... seriouslly pot of greed IS the best card in yugioh, it has no comparison to MoP.

Even though I don't agree with Koli-Xela's baffling view of pot of green, I still stick to my view of MoP, its not a bad card but its too much of a liability to be worth it in all but the more green intensive decks. I ran it when I first started cause back then I thought it was awesome and after weeks of playing I found it screwed me more then it helped me. Now adays I rely on my Jun Big Sisters instead for furyoku gaining which I know not all shaman have access too but as I said my friend who runs duncan runs 4 MoP and I'd say it hurts him just as much as it helps him Its not a horrible card to run but I just don't see it being staple worthy.

[Darkshneider]

Koli sorry to hit you while you're on the ground but I agree Pot of Greed is more than really good. The only broken card that beated it was Graceful Charity.


On the other hand, after some playtesting and some games against Dan I got the strategy of the game pretty fast and I can say that MoP is NOT a staple at all and is overrated by lots of players here. I dont know why I would go in my yellow zone just to add 2 green instead of one. If the cardwas tactical green maybe I'd say it is a staple but when you get this card 80% of the time it means you just lose a zone for 2 merely green. Don't get me wrong though, the card CAN be good but doesnt fit lots of deck and no deck should use 4 in my opinion. There is so much better pitch effects than that (For example burning an opponent yellow furyoku, which is for guardian though) or other really good cards that could replace it when building the deck. Usually, when I finish doing a deck I have 2 or 3 slots free... and unless my deck is based on MoP it will NEVER be a choice for me. Ill gladly join the dark side with Koli... even if he said bad from Pot of Greed :P.

[The Catalyst]

Okay, fine, I'm willing to concede that MoP is not for EVERY deck out there... but given my play style (stock up on lots of mana), I rather like the card. As I like any card that gives more mana than costs to use (Pitch = 0 mana).

Mana Advantage is just a little thing I'm completely hooked on in the game. Which is why I'll be playing Faust if/when he ever gets printed as a Shaman: Team Yoh: Cost reduction, etc. Mind: Attack other player's mana. Guardian: Cheap (quantitatively), attack other player's mana. End result: SUPER MANA ADVANTAGE!!!

[NITREX]

The card is very very much over-rated, from my testing, sure its pretty good in green, its already pretty bad in yellow, and in red its just horrid, a card like this will only be good in a deck that requires green, especially since if the deck doesnt need alot of green wasting a space in the deck for this just doesnt seem worth it.

[Koli_Xela]

EDIT: Wow, well I seem to have gotten several people on my side
As to MoP costing 0 mana that's wrong, the cost of a pitch is losing a defensive zone that is a lot steeper than mana in my opinion.

I dislike Pot of Greed and don't play it. Over the course of 6 months I have discussed this with seasoned vets to the point that the harshest supporter of pot of greed in my meta has agreed that it is NOT a staple card and should only be added to a deck after the rest of the deck has been completed unless the deck is based on outdrawing your opponent (such as Exodia). I will admit that Pot is not CRAP but to my play style it's a card that would NEVER see decking.
END EDIT

I'll not go into the 7 pages of reasoning behind why I say Pot of Greed is crap. Suffice it to say there are multiple other cards or card sets which provide the same or similar effects and actually do something else in stead. And if you are thinking that I was not a good Yu-Gi-Oh player due to my dislike for Pot of Greed (which comes from my time playing Magic the Gathering and dealing with the main set blue card {power 9 card I believe} that allowed you to draw 3 cards for 1 blue mana. THAT was a good card) I played Yu-Gi-Oh quite intensivly out here and was one of the leading players in my meta. I NEVER played a single match with Pot of Greed, it is one of those cards that should only be added to a deck that is running less than 40 cards and you have no other cards to complete the deck OR if you run Exodia (or any other deck that requires being able to draw 30 cards by turn 4)

But I digress, Manifestation of Power is a good card FOR CERTAIN DECKS, outside of a highly green intensive deck that has no access to Yoh teamworks Manifestation of Power is useable enough to see play. Outside a deck that wins due to overwhelming amounts of Green mana the risks outweigh the benefits of the card. I will say again, IF YOU CAN GIVE ME AN ACTUAL REASON for this card being useful outside the listed deck types I will re-weigh the cards benefits and negatives to re-evaluate the card. If you have nothing constructive to add to the argument (and "It's not a bad card" or "MoP is great" is NOT constructive) don't expect me to try and debate the issue. I am simply trying to find any reason to consider this card more than nominally playable (it is CERTAINLY NOT a staple card nor is it the BEST CARD in the set, that honor likely belongs to Dark Ascendance, which I believe to be a staple card for the majority of decks.)

Anyway That's my $0.02 once again
Feel free to prove me wrong

Koli

Originally Posted by The Catalyst

Pot of Greed is NOT crap... that much should be painfully obvious. Any card that gives you two free more cards (in a game that does use a hand) can NOT be crap. It replaces itself and then some... for free.

And as for taking 2 Green over 1 Red... um... I believe if anything, I just said you COULD. I never said you SHOULD. Most of the time, players will want to focus this in red and take the point rather than pitch and take the point.

And you really shouldn't be treating these as strikes when building your deck... they go into the group with Lilala and perhaps a couple others which have effects much like advantages, but are... not advantages. If you get the idea. They sort of go into their own class.

Oh, and Koli... if you don't want your MoP's, I'm willing to take them off your hands!

[Chibi Xellos]

Hmm, Manifestation of Power eh? I don't care too much for this card. I mean, sure it's ok especially if you get it in Green but the odds are low. I'd use it if I had more copies since I have one and it's for collection or if it fits the deck type. However, my decks most likely won't have a use for it. I wouldn't say Dark Ascendance is staple worthy either, I just don't see it that way. To me, it's just another ok card since I think the average Force in the games I play is like 5.

[fingreen]

POG is the basis of card advantage. Exchanging a card for two with no draw back nor cost is GOOD. There is no reason not running it. (NO REASON) If there is a card in Magic that cost nothing and draw two cards, the card would go in every deck.
It's very rare that the card will not be able to use it's effect. (unlike the Manifestation of Power) It's always worth playing it. (Unless spell canceller is on the table)

[Koli_Xela]

Alright alright, another person deciding to tell me that there is no reason not to run Pot of Greed. The card has no drawback yes, it has a nominal advantage tho. There are numerous cards that do the same thing for you (such as Dark Mimic Level 1 and Dark Mimic Level 3 when it dies, or Sonic Duck) There is a MAJOR reason not to run it. Every time you draw Pot of Greed you are effectivly drawing the one card in your deck that doesn't serve the decks theme. Chaos decks your pot of greed could have been that ligth monster you need to summon the BLS Envoy in your hand. Fiend decks, that could have been the last fiend you needed for necrofear, Last Turn decks, Jowgen or last turn or Wall of Revealing Light or ANY other big card you COULD be running to give yourself one more chance to win your match. Instead you get Pot of Greed, draw 2 cards (for a total card advantage of 1) and are that much closer to decking out. If your deck runs slow its a good card to boost up your speed, if your deck is complete with less than 40 cards its a good filler card; however, if you are leaving out even 1 card that could help you counter a given situation remember that when your Pot of Greed laughs at you as you lose your finals match in the tournament because you couldn't counter that move. Enemy Controller or Book of Moon, I'd run either of them over Pot any day. (Torrential, painful or now graceful, nobleman, dark core etc etc etc.... too much stuff you could use to give up such a useful spot in a 40 card deck)

But I digress, I dislike pot of greed, I guess that was not the best way to make my point in retrospect but to me it makes perfect sense and was the best analogy to present.

And before you bash me (again :P) for dogging on Pot of Greed test run your deck replacing it with another card like enemy controller or book, torrential or nobleman and see if Pot of Greed is REALLY worthy of the deck space it takes up. You will probably be surprised, heck I competed and WON in tournament level matches on a fairly regular basis without Pot of Greed and NEVER regretted it.

Koli

Originally Posted by fingreen

POG is the basis of card advantage. Exchanging a card for two with no draw back nor cost is GOOD. There is no reason not running it. (NO REASON) If there is a card in Magic that cost nothing and draw two cards, the card would go in every deck.
It's very rare that the card will not be able to use it's effect. (unlike the Manifestation of Power) It's always worth playing it. (Unless spell canceller is on the table)

[DanTheTimid]

AH!!! Just... just... AH!!!! I know this whole pot of greed debate is EXTREMELY off topic, not even being for this game, let alone this thread but I just can't sit by and listen to these lies.

You can't even begin to compare pot of greed to any card in magic, I believe the one you were using was ancestral recall (a horribly broken card which is now banned, the average draw 3 blue card now costs 4 converted mana). The reason is that yugioh has almost NO costs to speak of. The few costs it does have are usually either life point based (something you have plenty of from the get go) or discarding cards from your hand based. And most of the best cards in the game have no cost at all. You say "well if your running chaos thats pot of greed could have been the light you needed" yes thats true... except now I play the pot of greed and draw the light I needed plus a card to dump it in my grave yard. You seem to be under the impression you can't play pot of greed immediately or that it has some bizare hidden cost that I'm not aware of. Pot of greed has only 2 negatives, 1 is that it decks you out faster (having played yugioh since Legend of Blue Eyes I've been decked out all of Once in all my years against many deck out decks) and 2 that it could be negated... but now adays any card could be negated so thats hardly a real negative. The fact of that matter is that Pot of Greed's power is at worst equal to the power of the 2 other weakest cards in your deck combined cause whenever you draw it your immediately getting rid of it for 2 cards from your deck. And this isn't even getting into how much more powerful pot of greed is made by the existence of so many staples in yugioh since it speeds you through your deck toward your staples faster.

I'm really sorry, I don't want to be a jerk, but there is not now, and most likely won't ever be a reason to not include pot of greed in your deck(outside of it maybe some day being banned). You can win with out but your always putting yourself in a better position to win by running it then not running it. Next time you draw a torrential tribute and set it, then on my turn I draw pot of greed, play it, get mst and my own torrential tribute, mst yours then set mine I'd like to see you say how exactly pot wasn't worth running for me. If every card in your 40 card deck is awesome with out pot, even better, remove one of them you can most livee with out(in a 40 card deck theres always atleast 1 card you can live without) and now pot effectively is worth 2 of your awesome cards cause thats how many your gonna get when you draw and play it. Again the key compared to magic is all card drawing cards in magic atleast cost something, pot costs nothing, and almost everything in magic costs something so having extra cards doesn't mean you can always use them, in yugioh almost everything is free so you can use them right away (effectively gaining a full turn advantage over your opponent), and the powerful cards that cost a discard from your hand, well by drawing an extra card you've made that hand discard a little less brutal. Ok ok, thats all I have to say, I'm not going to post about pot of greed here anymore.

Back on topic, glad to see theres some open minds abou manifestation of power. We all seem to agree now that for some decks its very solid but its not for every deck.

[siren]

go to the yugioh forum and debate pot of greed.

Siren

[The Catalyst]

go to the yugioh forum and debate pot of greed.

Siren

Thank you. Even I'm getting tired of this pointless issue of debate.

But for MoP... hey, I like getting mana. What else can I say? That's why I like the card... it gets me more mana. And for those who doubt its power in yellow/red... um... then FOCUS it. That's still an option. You want a red instead of 2 green? Focus it. Either way, you'd be taking the point. And unless that's the final point of the game, it's generally better than returning with a force of 1 from the red.

Oooh... I can't resist it... okay. Final word on Pot of Greed: You want to use 40 cards of deck theme? Go ahead. Then make Pot of Greed number 41. You can do that. Pot of Greed will always put you in a better position than you were in before you played it. That's all I need to say.

Back to MoP. I have yet to find a single card that is staple worthy. For that, I praise UDE. The only things that come close are all typed... making them not possible to be staples across the board, only with certain Shamans... example: Decipher the Runes. And even then, I'm sure someone will find an argument against DtR's staple-ness. My point is: if there were any staples, they'd be painfully obvious. There aren't any cards that just scream "use me in every deck!" Therefore, we can assume there are no flat-staples. Does that mean MoP is a bad card? HELL NO! I love getting as much mana as possible, though, so for me, MoP is a wonderful card. My personal philosophy in this game is that Mana Advantage is the chief game decider. With enough mana, you can usually pull through whatever you need. Now, I understand that this view may be somewhat flawed... after all, last night my Trey deck lost to Duncan while I still had 8 red mana, one green, and one yellow. Yes, EIGHT RED. I couldn't flip a strike with seven intercept, though, and that cost me the game.

Now, I know that my deck is hardly stable... the odd mana levels should have proven that. But my point is, I had enough mana to pay for anything that came my way. My only problem, then, was finding something big enough that would work. Now, when you're trying to counter something with seven force outside of a guardian deck, those strikes can get pretty expensive. Eliminate a shortage of mana, and you've got half the problem solved. MoP helps to solve that mana problem. So... it stands to reason that MoP gets you half-way to winning. At least if you follow my philosophy... which I will admit can be flawed.