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Old 08-04-2013, 12:07 PM   #1
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Default An official multiplier list......

I have my own thoughts, but I think in order to get any logical grasp on debates of power levels and who is stronger than who we need to come up with some sort of outline. So I would like to see what others have or feel is correct for certain multipliers. I'm not so hung up on this **** to say anyone is right or wrong, opinions are they only thing we seem to rely on as far as DBZ debates go.

SSJ
SSJ2
SSJ3
Fusion Dance
Potara Fusion

So what ya got?
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:28 PM   #2
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I'll just give you my complete list. Actual official ones will be marked in bold.
  • Super Saiyan: 50x Base - Good ol' official multiplier. 'Nuff said.
  • Super Saiyan Grade 2: 75x Base (1.5x SSJ) - The one I use. Smack dab between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. I think that any less than that would be underwhelming, and any more wouldn't leave enough "room" between it and SSJ2 and SSJG2.
  • Super Saiyan Grade 3: 125x Base (2.5x SSJ) - I figure Grade 3 to hover a little ABOVE Super Saiyan 2 in power. It's a forced and sloppy transformation which over-emphasizes raw power, while a proper SSJ2 is more refined and balanced.
  • "Legendary" Super Saiyan: 125x Base (2.5x SSJ) - For the time being, I consider Broly's LSSJ state to be his own special sort of combination of Grade 3 and SSJ2. It shares the power boost of the former, but Broly doesn't suffer from the speed drawbacks, probably just because he somehow grows in height along with his muscles. This boost is kind of tentative, though.
  • Super Saiyan 2: 100x Base (2x SSJ) - Another official one.
  • Super Saiyan 3: 400x Base (4x SSJ2) - Also official. Yay.
  • Super Saiyan 4: 500x/1000x Base (SSJ/SSJ2 x Oozaru) - SSJ4 doesn't have an "official" multiplier, and if you can come up with something that works for GT's wonky power-scaling, then more power to you, because I probably never will. But this is the one I use for my GT rewrite fanfiction, and my extended fanon in general.

    The idea is that Super Saiyan 4's power depends on how far you've gone with Super Saiyan, specifically whether you've gained the ability to transcend and "maximize" it with Super Saiyan 2. So if you've done that, then the 10x boost from Oozaru gets mixed with SSJ2's 100x boost. If not, then it's only combined with SSJ1's 50x instead. In the context of my fanfic, I treat Super Saiyan 3 as an unnatural and flawed transformation that tries but fails to tap into Super Saiyan 4's power without the Oozaru element. It's something that's only even possible under extra-special circumstances, and has severe drawbacks.
  • Fusion Dance: "Much stronger than the sum of the parts." - We don't have an official boost of any kind for the Fusion Dance, so being at least several times stronger than the individuals combined is the only thing I'm going to say for sure. I believe it can vary from pair to pair.
  • Potara Fusion: "The more similar, the better." - I subscribe to a rather brilliant theory I picked up from someone, somewhere, which basically dictates that while it's not a requirement for the two individuals to be similar in power, body, mind, etc... the Potara still creates a better and stronger Fusion if they are similar. Hence why Goku and Vegeta made for a smokin' awesome Fusion, better than Goku and Gohan, or Kaioshin and Kibito, and so forth.


So there's a mini-essay from me on all of the above.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:55 PM   #3
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I feel a need to step on this debate. There are NO fixed multipliers. The only reason we try to define them ourselves is because they make power level lists easier; oh, what's his base power? 1/50th of his SSJ power. That's BS. True it is implied/given life by AT, who said something like SSJ Goku being at least 40x more powerful than his base. However this does not imply some fixed multiplier; it just tells us that Goku's power boost from going SSJ was greater than 40x.

So, my answer: all SSJ forms receive a variable power boost that is different upon the person/circumstances. The only other thing on this topic that I believe is relevant to state my belief upon is that I do believe the boost that one receives from SSJ decreases the longer that you have the form and the more that you use it. This implication is in part given by Goku v. Yakkon, but also simple logical thinking.

That is all, folks.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:02 PM   #4
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If that were the case, any and all power comparisons the Saiyans made (post Frieza) would be flawed.

And for the most part, they were not.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:20 PM   #5
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Why would that be?
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tienshinhan08 View Post
I feel a need to step on this debate. There are NO fixed multipliers. The only reason we try to define them ourselves is because they make power level lists easier; oh, what's his base power? 1/50th of his SSJ power. That's BS. True it is implied/given life by AT, who said something like SSJ Goku being at least 40x more powerful than his base. However this does not imply some fixed multiplier; it just tells us that Goku's power boost from going SSJ was greater than 40x.

So, my answer: all SSJ forms receive a variable power boost that is different upon the person/circumstances. The only other thing on this topic that I believe is relevant to state my belief upon is that I do believe the boost that one receives from SSJ decreases the longer that you have the form and the more that you use it. This implication is in part given by Goku v. Yakkon, but also simple logical thinking.

That is all, folks.
I don't feel the multipliers decrease over time. Their base power increases from training, then that is multiplied when they transform. From person to person, the only variance is their base form level. Otherwise, the boys could easily surpass their father's even if their base is 1/10 of them. Since by your reasoning, the boys would have greater multipliers than the adults. There is no evidence that they are that close in power SSJ child vs SSJ adult.

I agree with Kaboom on all but Broly's multiplier, I think he is almost SSJ2 level but with a little more brute strength. At least in M10 anyway.

Fusions have to have a decent multiplier, I think dance @ 20x and Potara @ 50x can work.

So for the boys
Base fused = 1+1 X 20 then x whatever SSJ form they are in.

That make sense?

Doing any sort of math, Potara has to be at least 50X for SSJ Vegito to manhandle Buuhantentrunkcollo

Last edited by Blood_Shot : 08-04-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:16 PM   #7
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Then how do you explain Goku v. Yakon? Yakon is 800 killi's, and Goku's base matches him. Then he's measured in SSJ at 3000.

Not sure what your point is with the boys. Not really clear on that. Potara being 90x for Vegito is fine, doesn't mean it'd be the same for a Tenshinhan+Yamcha potara fusion.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:36 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by tienshinhan08 View Post
Then how do you explain Goku v. Yakon? Yakon is 800 killi's, and Goku's base matches him. Then he's measured in SSJ at 3000.

Not sure what your point is with the boys. Not really clear on that. Potara being 90x for Vegito is fine, doesn't mean it'd be the same for a Tenshinhan+Yamcha potara fusion.
So you really think Goku is anywhere near his full power when fighting Yakon? He only transforms to show them he can light up the room, it was not out of a need to do so. To say Goku base = Yakon is a joke. My point with the boys is this

Goten 1
Goku 10

So youre saying that SSJ is now 3.75x Goku's base = 37.5
Goten who has not been a SSJ for very long would be stronger then Goku because like you said the multiplier decreases over time. So a fresh SSJ that is 50x base. So Goten has lost this multiplier in the few months after he has transformed?

Best answer on Babidi's scale, it like comparing loudness multipliers with decibels. 18db is 15x louder then 6db. Take it that way otherwise it's another lame plothole like 99% of everything else in DBZ

Also re-did my math on fusion multipliers, 50x on potara works as a minimum.

Last edited by Blood_Shot : 08-04-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 08-04-2013, 05:05 PM   #9
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Kaio states

Kaioken = 2x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 3 = 3x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 4 = 4x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 5 = 5x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 10 = 10x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 20 = 20x Goku's base power

Super Kaioken = 100x Goku's base power (or 2x Super Saiyan)


Blazing Shoot = _x Paikūhan's max power



Saiyan transformations


Oozaru = 10x Saiyan's base power


Super Saiyan = 50x Saiyan's base power
Super Saiyan 2nd grade = 62.5x Saiyan's base power (1.25x SSJ)
Super Saiyan 3rd grade = 250x Saiyan's base power (4x SSJG2 or 5x SSJ)
Super Saiyan 2 = 250x Saiyan's base power (5x SSJ)
Super Saiyan 3 = 2,500x Saiyan's base power (10x SSJ2 or 50x SSJ)
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Old 08-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Final Legion View Post
Kaio states

Kaioken = 2x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 3 = 3x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 4 = 4x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 5 = 5x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 10 = 10x Goku's base power
Kaioken x 20 = 20x Goku's base power

Super Kaioken = 100x Goku's base power (or 2x Super Saiyan)


Blazing Shoot = _x Paikūhan's max power



Saiyan transformations


Oozaru = 10x Saiyan's base power


Super Saiyan = 50x Saiyan's base power
Super Saiyan 2nd grade = 62.5x Saiyan's base power (1.25x SSJ)
Super Saiyan 3rd grade = 250x Saiyan's base power (4x SSJG2 or 5x SSJ)
Super Saiyan 2 = 250x Saiyan's base power (5x SSJ)
Super Saiyan 3 = 2,500x Saiyan's base power (10x SSJ2 or 50x SSJ)
SSJ3 10X stronger than SSJ2?
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Old 08-04-2013, 06:14 PM   #11
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SSJ3 10X stronger than SSJ2?
That doesn't work, that would mean the potara fusion would have to be like 500x for SSJ Vegito to stomp Buuhantentrunkcollodaisouthkaojin.

I don't think it is that high.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:21 PM   #12
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I believe that SSJ3 is a bigger boost of SSJ2 then SSJ2 was off of SSJ. It's just so power draining and unnatral it must be IMO. Even the SEG has it double the ratio that SSJ2 was.

And since i think 2x for SSJ to SSJ2 is way too minimal for Cell games and Buu arc sequences and SSJ to SSJ2 should be more like 4-5x then that works out for me well.

Also in the anime when Goku goes SSJ3 for first time there's an Oozaru montage so I think it's just basically an Oozarued out SSJ2.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:53 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Blood_Shot View Post
So you really think Goku is anywhere near his full power when fighting Yakon? He only transforms to show them he can light up the room, it was not out of a need to do so. To say Goku base = Yakon is a joke. My point with the boys is this

Goten 1
Goku 10

So youre saying that SSJ is now 3.75x Goku's base = 37.5
Goten who has not been a SSJ for very long would be stronger then Goku because like you said the multiplier decreases over time. So a fresh SSJ that is 50x base. So Goten has lost this multiplier in the few months after he has transformed?

Best answer on Babidi's scale, it like comparing loudness multipliers with decibels. 18db is 15x louder then 6db. Take it that way otherwise it's another lame plothole like 99% of everything else in DBZ

Also re-did my math on fusion multipliers, 50x on potara works as a minimum.
I don't believe it's possible to go SSJ and be immediately suppressed. So yes I think the 3000 was close to Goku's full SSJ power.

The point with the boys is obviously biased. You are going from the standpoint of creating an example which you can manipulate easily. We know Goku's SSJ is far stronger than Goten's SSJ. So go from there. That's how it would work.

I think you are also sort of clinging to the idea of there always being an initially set SSJ multiplier. Not saying that either. Maybe Goku's transformation yielded a 50x boost in power, and Gohan's first transformation was only 27x or something. Goten's would probably be even less, considering the circumstances of it.

As far as thinking of it from a realistic standpoint, what I meant by that is that if you just consider training or working out in real life then it's easy to see that all things aren't equal. Two guys bench pressing 200 pounds are not going to get that same kind of gain from it. There's a lot of factors that go into it. There's no reason to assume the same would not be true in DBZ, with transformations. I'd imagine the amount of desperation and rage and power of the person transforming would have a lot to do with it.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:16 PM   #14
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4-5x SSJ1 to SSJ2 works but that would have to make SSJ3 around the same multiplier. It still would be a huge stretch, Potara would have to be like 300 at a minimum to stomp buuhansolo. I still don't think it is that high.

That would put Super Buu roughly 10x stronger then Majin Buu.

One of three things would have to be true

A) Potara is 300X multiplier
B) Goku and Vegeta are at least 40x stronger than the boys
C) SSJ3 is only a 4x multiplier

Pick what you want I guess, it's just a TV show lol

Additional Comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tienshinhan08 View Post
I don't believe it's possible to go SSJ and be immediately suppressed. So yes I think the 3000 was close to Goku's full SSJ power.

The point with the boys is obviously biased. You are going from the standpoint of creating an example which you can manipulate easily. We know Goku's SSJ is far stronger than Goten's SSJ. So go from there. That's how it would work.

I think you are also sort of clinging to the idea of there always being an initially set SSJ multiplier. Not saying that either. Maybe Goku's transformation yielded a 50x boost in power, and Gohan's first transformation was only 27x or something. Goten's would probably be even less, considering the circumstances of it.

As far as thinking of it from a realistic standpoint, what I meant by that is that if you just consider training or working out in real life then it's easy to see that all things aren't equal. Two guys bench pressing 200 pounds are not going to get that same kind of gain from it. There's a lot of factors that go into it. There's no reason to assume the same would not be true in DBZ, with transformations. I'd imagine the amount of desperation and rage and power of the person transforming would have a lot to do with it.
First Bold= Uh yeah, that's what everyone does. That's why I started this thread so we could all perhaps collaborate on some sort of numerical baseline for us to work off of.

Second Bold= That's what I did

Third Bold= To me, that doesn't make sense. If the multiplier decrease over time, then wouldn't the Kaioken be a better setup for Goku? With your Babidi math, KKx5 would be stronger then SSJ Goku. KK is a useless tool at this point in the series.

Fouth Bold= We cant think realistically, we are talking about aliens here. Yes everyone has a different potential, and the potentials are multiplied in the transformations. I mean, no one has ever said Vegeta's multiplier was 60x when he transformed, we know his base power was much higher then Goku's when he transformed. This doesn't change the gain in the transformation though. Also, no one says one Oozaru multiplier is different then the rest. IIRC Vegeta says its 10x, not sure if any official powers are stated (maybe Goku's transformation at Pilaf's castle is official, he goes from 10 to 100). So why would one Saiyan transformation be constant and the other not?

Also if anyone is curious, anything Im stating number wise is based off the boys being 1/10 their father's power with whatever change may be needed IE Trunks being slightly stronger then Goten but Vegeta being slightly weaker than Goku pre-majin.

Last edited by Blood_Shot : 08-04-2013 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:18 PM   #15
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Wait, we're doubting that Super Saiyans can suppress their power level now?

Why?

They can do it in base... Why not in SS?
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by White Oni View Post
Wait, we're doubting that Super Saiyans can suppress their power level now?

Why?

They can do it in base... Why not in SS?
I think he means like right when they transform. So sure there could be a slight jump but I look at it like this...

FP base Goku= 100
Suppressed =1 (If Frieza can suppress to 1% then so can the z fighters)
Suppressed SSJ Goku= 50
FP SSJ Goku= 5000
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Blood_Shot View Post
4-5x SSJ1 to SSJ2 works but that would have to make SSJ3 around the same multiplier. It still would be a huge stretch, Potara would have to be like 300 at a minimum to stomp buuhansolo. I still don't think it is that high.

That would put Super Buu roughly 10x stronger then Majin Buu.

One of three things would have to be true

A) Potara is 300X multiplier
B) Goku and Vegeta are at least 40x stronger than the boys
C) SSJ3 is only a 4x multiplier

Pick what you want I guess, it's just a TV show lol

Additional Comment:



First Bold= Uh yeah, that's what everyone does. That's why I started this thread so we could all perhaps collaborate on some sort of numerical baseline for us to work off of.

Second Bold= That's what I did

Third Bold= To me, that doesn't make sense. If the multiplier decrease over time, then wouldn't the Kaioken be a better setup for Goku? With your Babidi math, KKx5 would be stronger then SSJ Goku. KK is a useless tool at this point in the series.

Fouth Bold= We cant think realistically, we are talking about aliens here. Yes everyone has a different potential, and the potentials are multiplied in the transformations. I mean, no one has ever said Vegeta's multiplier was 60x when he transformed, we know his base power was much higher then Goku's when he transformed. This doesn't change the gain in the transformation though. Also, no one says one Oozaru multiplier is different then the rest. IIRC Vegeta says its 10x, not sure if any official powers are stated (maybe Goku's transformation at Pilaf's castle is official, he goes from 10 to 100). So why would one Saiyan transformation be constant and the other not?

Also if anyone is curious, anything Im stating number wise is based off the boys being 1/10 their father's power with whatever change may be needed IE Trunks being slightly stronger then Goten but Vegeta being slightly weaker than Goku pre-majin.
The kaioken had to have been eliminated by AT, that's the only explanation. Because if Frieza saga Goku could handle 20x, how many could he handle in the Buu saga? 400x? 1400x? Regardless it would be much higher than your multipliers.

We absolutely should think realistically here. Sure this is a show about aliens. But we should not assume things aren't similar to our own world, unless they are shown to be different. When cut these guys bleed. They need to eat, drink, go to the bathroom. There's a sun, they are on Earth, etc. So unless told otherwise it is logical and likely what AT would have wanted for us to do, to treat his world similar to our own in all ways except what he shows to be different.

Also on another note I never understood thinking a blast like Kamehameha has a set multiplier. It should obviously vary based on the user and how he performs it each time. Now you might argue that, well, Goku mastered the Kamehameha and would know how to do it right. Of course. Roger Clemens mastered his fastball, but still the speed and location of it varied from pitch to pitch.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Oni View Post
Wait, we're doubting that Super Saiyans can suppress their power level now?

Why?

They can do it in base... Why not in SS?
In order to transform they have to put out a lot of power, it's not going to be initially suppressed. Maybe they could pull the power down afterwards, but they aren't going to transform and have their power initially 1 PL higher than their max base power. Doesn't make much sense that way.

Also we have no reason to assume he's suppressed in SSJ against Yakon, other than to satisfy you guys' that SSJ is indeed a 50x boost.
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Last edited by tienshinhan08 : 08-05-2013 at 04:25 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:14 AM   #18
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I have it like this.

Mastered Super Saiyan (25x-50x)
Super Saiyan 2 (100x-200x)
Super Saiyan 3 (300x-400x)

UnMastered Super Saiyan (40x-50x)
Super Saiyan Grade 2 (80x)
Super Saiyan Grade 3 (100x)
Legendary (125x)
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:21 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by tienshinhan08 View Post
Also we have no reason to assume he's suppressed in SSJ against Yakon, other than to satisfy you guys' that SSJ is indeed a 50x boost.
The reason is Dabura:

- Dabura does not fear 3000 Kili
- Vegeta implies he can destroy Dabura
- Goku says nothing to contradict Vegeta [going as far as effectively agreeing with him] before knowing Vegeta has SSJ2
- Goku > Vegeta

Which leads to: SSJ Goku >> Dabura > 3000 Kili

Another way to get there would be:

- Dabura does not fear 3000 Kili
- Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan
- SSJ Goku >> SSJ Gohan

Which again leads to: SSJ Goku >> Dabura > 3000 Kili

Goku was not at full power when he was measured by the Kili meter.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:08 AM   #20
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Yeah, I don't think Goku would be any more than around half power during that first transformation. His main purpose was to project an aura to make light, not actually go all rambo overkill on Yakon.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:06 AM   #21
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The number difference between 3,000 and 800 is 3.75x.

Goku
Base - 1,000 Kilis
Super Saiyan - 3,000 Kilis (94% of Full Power)
Super Saiyan Full Power - 50,000 Kilis
Super Saiyan 2 Burst - 6,000 Kilis

I think according to Kilis...Goku may have learned to control his Ki as Super Saiyan.
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I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the manga”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them. I check the plot and script that gets sent to me from Toei Animation. You're classed as mentally ill, if you claim your opinions as facts.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Lord Vegeta View Post
The number difference between 3,000 and 800 is 3.75x.

Goku
Base - 1,000 Kilis
Super Saiyan - 3,000 Kilis (94% of Full Power)
Super Saiyan Full Power - 50,000 Kilis
Super Saiyan 2 Burst - 6,000 Kilis

I think according to Kilis...Goku may have learned to control his Ki as Super Saiyan.
They learned to do it before the Cell Games. That was the whole point of them trying to make it their natural state and have the full spectrum of their power so they could conserve energy.

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Originally Posted by tienshinhan08 View Post
The kaioken had to have been eliminated by AT, that's the only explanation. Because if Frieza saga Goku could handle 20x, how many could he handle in the Buu saga? 400x? 1400x? Regardless it would be much higher than your multipliers.

We absolutely should think realistically here. Sure this is a show about aliens. But we should not assume things aren't similar to our own world, unless they are shown to be different. When cut these guys bleed. They need to eat, drink, go to the bathroom. There's a sun, they are on Earth, etc. So unless told otherwise it is logical and likely what AT would have wanted for us to do, to treat his world similar to our own in all ways except what he shows to be different.

Also on another note I never understood thinking a blast like Kamehameha has a set multiplier. It should obviously vary based on the user and how he performs it each time. Now you might argue that, well, Goku mastered the Kamehameha and would know how to do it right. Of course. Roger Clemens mastered his fastball, but still the speed and location of it varied from pitch to pitch.

Additional Comment:



In order to transform they have to put out a lot of power, it's not going to be initially suppressed. Maybe they could pull the power down afterwards, but they aren't going to transform and have their power initially 1 PL higher than their max base power. Doesn't make much sense that way.

Also we have no reason to assume he's suppressed in SSJ against Yakon, other than to satisfy you guys' that SSJ is indeed a 50x boost.
First Bold= Yeah we know, that's why there is FPSSJ, SSJ2,SSJ3 etc. It would make zero sense to have an attack like the KK replaced with the 50x multiplier just to have that nerfed down to >4x.

Second Bold= Who isn't thinking realistically here. The only point in this comment of yours is potentials, which is covered by the variances in the gains from training and their base forms. The transformations are the same, it's never shown otherwise.
Goku: 100
Vegeta: 95
SSJ Goku: 5000
SSJ Vegeta: 4750
There is your potential varience.

Third bold: Yeah that is widely excepted. I asked about certain multipliers for transformations. Attacks are based on effort and some sort of skill level.

Last Bold: We have no reason to assume he isn't suppressed, other than to satisfy your statement that SSJ isn't a 50x multiplier.

Last edited by Blood_Shot : 08-05-2013 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lord Vegeta View Post
Goku may have learned to control his Ki as Super Saiyan.
He did. That was evidently a big part of his training to master the form in the Room of Spirit and Time. He was suppressed down to casual base-level strength when he exited, showed off 50% to Karin, stayed suppressed back down until the Cell Games started, had a "warm up" round with Cell at some undetermined percentage, and then finally debuted his new full power to fight Cell seriously.

The ability, and the notion of FPSSj in general, wasn't given as much attention in the Boo arc, but it's still evident. We see Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and arguably even the kids all maintaining Super Saiyan casually and seemingly in total control of their power. Goku only seeming to get about 3-5x stronger when he first transformed against Yakon is just one of a good handful of potential examples.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:00 PM   #24
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Perhaps Goku wanted to conserve Ki just in case he fights against Dabura and Majin Buu.
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What is your personal stance on Dragon Ball’s theatrical films, Sensei?
I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the manga”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them. I check the plot and script that gets sent to me from Toei Animation. You're classed as mentally ill, if you claim your opinions as facts.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:21 PM   #25
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Yeah, compromising the x50 multiplier just to avoid the conclusion that Goku was holding back in SS form against Yokon just doesn't sound right to me. =/
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