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Old 08-03-2013, 04:55 PM   #1
Telvin123
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Default Bujingi Crane vs Black Garden

Alright, I think I have the grasp on this, but just in case I'm wrong, how would this work out?

Is helpful to have a link to go to anyhow, for any other future Bujin players.


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Question 1:
Alright so let's say I have a Thunder King Rai-Oh, and I attack my opponent's Yamato. Now since his attack is higher than Yamato's, that means he cannot use Prideful Roar. So if the opponent activated Crane's effect, he still wouldn't be able to chain Prideful Roar correct?

Quote:
Question 2:
Is there any particular instance other than the scenario I mentioned, where Prideful Roar would come out on top? Like, if my opponent monster has lower attack than Yamato, but he uses Crane anyways?

One more clarification involing Bujingi Crane.

Alright, so if I summon Bujin Yamato under Black Garden, I know his attack gets halved due to the field spell's effect.

And after using Bujingi Crane, his attack would still be at a static 3600 for that particular damage calculation. And afterwards, it would reset back to its original attack of 1800.

I know all of this, but I've been meaning to look for the most correct way to explain this to my opponents, so that there is no way they would end up being confused.

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Question 3:
What's the most appropiate way to explain why Bujingi Crane resets Black Garden's attack reduction effect?
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:07 PM   #2
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Only one Chain of effects can be built during Damage Calculation. From the time Yamato was attacked until the time Crane starts resolving, Yamato has less ATK than Raioh. Prideful Roar can't be activated in a new Chain after Crane resolves.

Also, this:
Quote:
Shrink: When "Shrink" targets a monster affected by "Black Garden", "Shrink" will halve the monster's Original ATK, not the monster's halved ATK. During the End Phase, the monster's ATK will Return to its Original ATK.

Example: "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" (ATK 3000) is Summoned, and its ATK is halved to 1500. "Shrink" will make its ATK 1500. During the End Phase, "Blue-Eyes White Dragon"'s ATK returns to 3000.
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:11 PM   #3
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Alright, but say the monster had lower attack, and they used Prideful Roar. If I chained Bujingi Crane, would the weaker monster end up overcoming Crane's effect, or would it only count Yamato's 1800 attack?
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:14 PM   #4
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The effect that resolves last, the first activated, wins.
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:21 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Telvin123 View Post
Alright, but say the monster had lower attack, and they used Prideful Roar. If I chained Bujingi Crane, would the weaker monster end up overcoming Crane's effect, or would it only count Yamato's 1800 attack?
Prideful Roar only increases the ATK by a fixed amount (LP paid + 300), and that LP paid is only equal to the current difference upon its activation.

There's no way for Prideful Roar to see the +1800 increase.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:01 PM   #6
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I would also like to know how to explain the crane vs Black Garden overide, as I constantly get challenged on the ruling. I usually just say that crane manipulates yamatos original attack, nullifying black gardens effect on yamato, but its almost never enough to convince my opponents
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:06 PM   #7
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Your opponents just can't grasp how these interactions work.
If you already know how to explain it correctly, then it's not your problem anymore.

But in case you yourself don't know, Black Garden's half-stat isn't continuously applied. It just resolves once to "freeze" the ATK into a fixed value.

Afterwards, if something else changes (NOT increases/decreases) that current value, Garden's half-stat won't re-apply.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
the ATK of your monster becomes double its original ATK
Crane sets a specific value based on the original attack.

BW - Gale and its associated rulings would also be a good read.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:17 PM   #9
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Some more situations, since the Crane thread is already created and I don't want to create another.

Fire Formation - Tenki on the field. Crane doubles the attack of Yamato to 3600 until the end of Damage Calculation (no Tenki applied here) and after that Yamato goes back to 1800+100=1900. Yes?

Horn of the Phantom Beast on a Yamato. Crane is used, attack is doubled to 3600 until the end of Damage Calculation (no Horn reapplied) and after that Yamato goes back to 1800+700=2500. Yes?

Axe of Despair on a Yamato. Crane is used, attack is doubled to 3600 until the end of Damage Calculation (no Axe applied in there) and after that Yamato goes back to 1800+1000=2800. Yes?
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:22 PM   #10
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Correct on those counts since the equip cards are still applied just that Crane doubles the Original ATK but the equips do not increase it's ATK by the set amount that they're supposed to because Crane applies at Damage Calculation only
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #11
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The current ATK becomes a fixed value, and current modifiers can't re-apply.

If the modifiers are continuous, they are re-applied after the fixed value wears off.

Black Garden's fix resolves once and isn't continuous.
So does Bujingi Crane's fix, only difference is Crane has a fixed duration.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:32 PM   #12
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Thanks, thought so.
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:40 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by SkullBuster View Post
The current ATK becomes a fixed value, and current modifiers can't re-apply.

If the modifiers are continuous, they are re-applied after the fixed value wears off.

Black Garden's fix resolves once and isn't continuous.
So does Bujingi Crane's fix, only difference is Crane has a fixed duration.
Shouldn't it work like Shrink and not like Gale?

If a monster whose ATK is increased by a continuous effect is affected by Shrink, the ATK boost is re-applied after the ATK is halved.
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:01 PM   #14
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Continuous boosts are only reapplied after damage calculation, in this case.

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Old 08-15-2013, 09:29 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullBuster View Post
Your opponents just can't grasp how these interactions work.
If you already know how to explain it correctly, then it's not your problem anymore.

But in case you yourself don't know, Black Garden's half-stat isn't continuously applied. It just resolves once to "freeze" the ATK into a fixed value.

Afterwards, if something else changes (NOT increases/decreases) that current value, Garden's half-stat won't re-apply.
So using something such as Forbidden Lance on a monster affected by Black Garden wouldn't reset their attack to its original value after the end phase? Would it Return to the halved value after lance wears off?
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:35 AM   #16
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So using something such as Forbidden Lance on a monster affected by Black Garden wouldn't reset their attack to its original value after the end phase? Would it Return to the halved value after lance wears off?
That's correct.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:44 AM   #17
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So what are cards that can reset gardens eff?
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:51 AM   #18
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So what are cards that can reset gardens eff?
Anything that temporarily sets ATK to a certain value via a lingering effect, rather than a continuously applied one. (Shrink works, Megamorph doesn't)
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:49 PM   #19
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Oh, another question, just to clarify:

If I use Lance on Yamato, and then use Crane's effect, Will Yamato go back to 1800 or 1000 attack?
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:34 PM   #20
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Oh, another question, just to clarify:

If I use Lance on Yamato, and then use Crane's effect, Will Yamato go back to 1800 or 1000 attack?
1800. No different than Black Garden.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshift View Post
Continuous boosts are only reapplied after damage calculation, in this case.

http://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugioh...eyword=&tag=-1
Interesting, Crane is similar to shrink but yet still different and totally different than HC Excalibur.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:06 AM   #22
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Interesting, Crane is similar to shrink but yet still different and totally different than HC Excalibur.
Clear Vice Dragon should be be a close enough analogue for Bujingi Crane.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiTcb View Post
Clear Vice Dragon should be be a close enough analogue for Bujingi Crane.
The problem is that it is continuous so if it is affected by Gale, it stops working.

BTW I am GLAD you did not go through the order of operations of continuous effects in your YGOrg post. Stupid The Wicked Avatar, The Wicked Dreadroot, Clear Vice Dragon, The Hunter with 7 Weapons and etc. rulings...

Also WTF Shrink is a lingering effect that recalculates!!!

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If “Shrink” affects a monster with ATK that varies due to its Continuous Effect, like “Gren Maju Da Eiza” or “King of the Skull Servants”, that monster’s ATK will be halved. If its ATK changes due to its own effect in the same turn, recalculate the effect of "Shrink" based on the new original ATK. When the effect of “Shrink” wears off, that monster’s ATK will be calculated as normal.
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:11 PM   #24
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I am just trying to see if I am right here, but does Crane Stacks
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