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Old 06-12-2013, 10:42 AM   #1
Bleakdragon55
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Default Number 11: Big Eye

Before you even big to type into the comment box something along the lines of "lol, u mad bro?", this thread is not about Dragon Rulers and their ability to spam Number 11: Big Eye( lets just do Big Eye for short). I know for a fact that Big Eye is not the problem in the deck (the mini dragons are) and that we can be pretty sure Dragon Rulers will be hit by the next ban list to some extent, or at least enough to make the Pure variant not as effective in controlling the meta.

My concern for Big Eye lies in the ability to, basically, splash him into any of the elemental attribute decks. This is of course thanks to the Dragon Rulers and their generic attribute support. It is fantastic to see so many diverse decks come about thanks to the support that these cards bring; however, is this "diversity" exactly healthy in terms of what Big Eye can do?

Many of you should know that "stealing" cards is something that isn't very favored in regards to the ban list. Many of the cards that can do such an action are banned (Change of Heart, Brain Control, Snatch Steal) or are relatively balanced in terms of cost (Mind Control before synchros and xyz and Memory of an Advisory). When Big Eye was released in Galactic Overlord, he fell into the second category. Summoning 2 level 7 monsters usually took a really large investment, such as in decks like Karakuri or Machina Gadget, and really wasn't worth it in the end. However, this changed when Mermails and Prophecy took the competitive stage and, of course, Dragon Rulers.

Currently, Big Eye is so easy to summon in many of the top decks currently being played, such as Dragon Rulers, but lets assume that the Dragon Ruler deck gets hit though (such as the mini dragons to 1 or 0). Where does this leave Big-Eye? As long as the Big Dragons themselves are around, Big-Eye is still a threat as a splashable card. Here are just a couple of the decks that can "splash" him in with some of the Dragon Rulers

Water:

Mermail
Pure Atlantean (If Mermails are to die by the next list)

Earth:

Karakuri
Geargia
Machina
Gem-Knight

Fire:

Laval
Brotherhood of the Fire Fist (as long as they keep a mini or 2)

Wind:

Harpie
Mecha Phantom Beast

Mixed Attribute:

Heraldic

And I a sure there are many other decks that I am missing from this list, but the ability to simply summon a creature that can steal up to two of the opponent's monsters for as little as a 2-3 card investment is pretty substantial. If being able to have easy access into a double and permanent Change of Heart with such a low cost, shouldn't it be considered a threat if all the top decks in the future have access to it? I mean, Change of Heart and Snatch Steal were pretty powerful in their prime and that state of the game was pretty slow. In the current meta speed, as I am sure that you all have seen, losing your big monster can instantly cause you the game.

Basically, I am saying that while right now is the time to consider the impact that the Dragon Ruler deck can utilize Rank 7's with ease, in the future, Big Eye can be an issue as long as the Dragon Rulers are still around. While the attribute support is fantastic, is it really ideal if its all to summon rank 7's?

This is just something to consider for the future of the game. As long as the top decks are archetype decks around a certain attribute, the elemental dragons can, and will, be considered and thus.... Big-Eye can easily be splashable.

Thoughts? I understand if many people think this is quite the irrational mind-set.... but it is possible.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:50 AM   #2
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Number 11: Big Eye to 1 maybe.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:51 AM   #3
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Gem-Knights can summon Rank Sevens without Incarnates.

Same with Harpie's, Phantom Beastcraft, Machina, Karakuri, and essentially every deck up there.

Also 2-3 cards is not a small investment. Dropping a large monster for such an investment is a sign of balance.

Card's fine and always will be. Hit what results in it being dropped for beans.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:09 AM   #4
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Two cards for No. 11 isn't nearly enough: Big Eye should always be at least a three card combo.
The greater dragons turn any one of the above deck's boss monsters into an instant rank 7, which just isn't cool.

The dragon rulers and, to a lesser extent, mermails are the ones at fault here, but if they limited Big Eye, you certainly wouldn't see me complaining about it.

Keep in mind, the card's effect is an extremely solid +2, which makes a -1 summon of him a minimum of a +1, but up to a +3 (especially given his size and stun value).
Yes, this can technically be done with Dragossack too, but his immediate pluses are inferior and his full potential takes much longer than 2 turns to reach.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyThomas View Post
Gem-Knights can summon Rank Sevens without Incarnates.

Same with Harpie's, Phantom Beastcraft, Machina, Karakuri, and essentially every deck up there.

Also 2-3 cards is not a small investment. Dropping a large monster for such an investment is a sign of balance.

Card's fine and always will be. Hit what results in it being dropped for beans.
I am not saying that the incarnates are the issue, though my post might drift that way with how many times I do mention them. What I am saying is that those decks can easily summon this without any effort and the incarnates make it even easier to accomplish.

For instance, take a hand like

Karakuri Komachi, Karakuri Kuick, Redox

Normal Komachi, Normal Kuick, Synch Burei. Burei summons something else. Banish both the Komachi and Kuick in grave for Redox. XYZ Big-Eye and take their monster. If that is a monster you can use for a synchro summon, go ahead and use whatever you summoned for another synchro summon.

Incredibly easy. Yes it takes 3 cards from hand, but you gain a +1 from taking your opponent's monster and a +1 for the special summon, thus giving you a -1 in net advantage, but you can easily make it up next turn with the Redox in grave to be special summoned.

However, I could also make it a 3 card combo without Redox

Scrap Recylcer, Iron Call, any Level 4 Karakuri

Summon Recycler, Pitch Watchdog. Iron Call it back and synch Burei. Burei summons Komachi from deck. Use the additional normal summon to summon your second Karakuri. Synch into another Burei and special summon; then go Big-Eye.

I could keep doing this over and over for each of the different decks listed above, but that isn't my point. My point is that Big-Eye is almost splashable. While most of the time you minus a bit to summon him, it really doesn't matter as you can easily steal an opponent's monster to make up for the advantage while robbing them of their advantage that they used to summon their monster.

Take Mermails for example. They drop Megalo by discarding 2 cards. While this nets them, usually, a +0 in the end (Atlantean Discards or Gunde), stealing their Megalo turns that +0 into a minus -1 for them while you gain a +1. This is part of the danger of not only monster stealing cards, but Big-Eye in particular as the monster doesn't Return.

Normally, I am in the argument of hitting the spam. However, when it comes down to the nuts and bolts, hitting one card that every deck uses is much simpler than hitting all the decks.

And from what I can use with the Dragon Ruler splash factor, I could see it being somewhat of an issue.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by [YGOCARD
Birdface[/ygocard];27695973]Two cards for No. 11 isn't nearly enough: Big Eye should always be at least a three card combo.
The greater dragons turn any one of the above deck's boss monsters into an instant rank 7, which just isn't cool.

The dragon rulers and, to a lesser extent, mermails are the ones at fault here, but if they limited Big Eye, you certainly wouldn't see me complaining about it.

Keep in mind, the card's effect is an extremely solid +2, which makes a -1 summon of him a minimum of a +1, but up to a +3 (especially given his size and stun value).
Yes, this can technically be done with Dragossack too, but his immediate pluses are inferior and his full potential takes much longer than 2 turns to reach.
Exactly.

Don't get me wrong though.... I am not advocating any bans/limit/etc. I am just throwing out a potential problem that might be important in the future.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:57 PM   #6
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Big Eye -> Xyz equivalent of Goyo Guardian, except significantly harder to summon (though I guess it works against opposing Xyzs better than Goyo Guardian).
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:10 PM   #7
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It's also smaller, isn't a battle-based effect and keeps their monster in attack position.

It's certainly a stronger monster than Goyo, but so it should be; being a rank 7 it's theoretically quite a bit harder to summon.
Then Dragon Rulers pop their heads in and say hi.... as they do to just about every halfway decent monster.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:30 PM   #8
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Decks shouldn't be able to just drop rank 7's this easy. That's the problem methinks.
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:32 PM   #9
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To 1. It's just faster than Goyo.
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:57 PM   #10
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This is why we should be hitting the big ones over the minis. Sure, the dragons are support for element based decks, but they're too powerful support cards, and the stuff mentioned in the OP is proof they're too good, even for element support.

After all, it's the big ones that summon themselves for free with no cost. Whether I'm summoning a redox in dragons for free or in gadgets, a +1 every turn isn't fair regardless of the deck.
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Old 06-12-2013, 05:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chesster423 View Post
To 1. It's just faster than Goyo.
It's one thing being able to summon one, but any deck that is able to summon two of these in a duel frequently enough to justify limiting this is obviously the problem.

Limiting Rank 7s doesn't make sense.
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Old 06-12-2013, 05:54 PM   #12
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Admittedly, rank 7s were hard to summon prior to this, but with the advent of E-Drags, Mermail, Prophecy and then "rogue" decks like Harpie being given cheap rank 7 potential. Konami has been pushing rank 7s hard, and one has to wonder if they're going to continue to do so in the future. Still, hitting rank 7s probably isn't the solution, but it's not necessarily true that hitting E-Drags will make the problem go away.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:19 PM   #13
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I dont see how any of the listed decks dont have stupid **** that's worse design or needs to die before big eye
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I dont see how any of the listed decks dont have stupid **** that's worse design or needs to die before big eye
In my list? I agree that the first three decks have stupid **** (and Channeler's level changer is iffy at best), and so hits are deserved. I just think it's possible that the rank 7 support is going to keep coming and at that stage it may be better to just get rid of the particularly strong rank 7s than banhammer every single deck that can get them.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
It's also smaller, isn't a battle-based effect and keeps their monster in attack position.
These days, face-up atk position is almost strictly better than face-up def position. Moreover, you can always switch battle positions, so I really dont know what you're talking about.

The reason why its not as good as Goyo is because its far harder to summon. Even in the Rank 7 Spam era its at least as hard to summon when Goyo just came out with 0 +0 synchro support. When stuff like Gale came around, Goyo's summoning condition became a huge joke. Like, as big a joke as a rank 3 with Tour Guide. Like, a joke that is actually funny.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:46 PM   #16
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Just pointing out a few other differences.

Overall, as mentioned later in that post, Big Eye is a fair bit better (which is more than justified with their difference in summoning condition).
For the record, I am of the opinion that Goyo is A-Okay and his continued ban is entirely unjustified.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:04 PM   #17
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The card is fine. Big Eye's summoning condition and investment balances it. Especially since level 7 monsters are usually already powerful.

The tipping point is when card advantage doesn't mean anything and big eyes are being summoned as easily as rank 3s and 4s.

Kill mermails, dragons, and prophecy with fire. Then leave Big Eye as a balanced high risk, high reward card like it should be.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:09 PM   #18
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For what you described in your op, i would say that the big ones are the problem because continous +1 from the grave are bad for the game regardless of the attribute.
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Old 06-13-2013, 01:35 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliko View Post
This is why we should be hitting the big ones over the minis. Sure, the dragons are support for element based decks, but they're too powerful support cards, and the stuff mentioned in the OP is proof they're too good, even for element support.

After all, it's the big ones that summon themselves for free with no cost. Whether I'm summoning a redox in dragons for free or in gadgets, a +1 every turn isn't fair regardless of the deck.
Or, hit the mini's as without them Big Eye comes at a -3.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliko View Post
This is why we should be hitting the big ones over the minis. Sure, the dragons are support for element based decks, but they're too powerful support cards, and the stuff mentioned in the OP is proof they're too good, even for element support.

After all, it's the big ones that summon themselves for free with no cost. Whether I'm summoning a redox in dragons for free or in gadgets, a +1 every turn isn't fair regardless of the deck.
Removing 2 is not "Free", it only really becomes so when its searcher (the mini's) also act as its fodder.

Getting rid of the mini's gets rid of the problem, play some other decks with the Dragon Rulers: Gadgets, Dragunity, and Mermails all gain some great consistency, without becoming busted. Also, since you would only be playing the Dragon Ruler associated with your attribute, their self limiting "One per turn, per effect" clause would kick in, preventing the spam shenanigans we are seeing.

The cards are a necessary evil for the game now.

Additional Comment:

Quote:
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Number 11: Big Eye to 1 maybe.
Don't think it should, but could see it happening.

Last edited by GrepherDK : 06-13-2013 at 08:47 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:50 AM   #21
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Snatch steal at 0
Brain Control at 0
Change of Heart at 0
Mind Control at 1
Big Eye to 0-1
#Trolllogic
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:03 AM   #22
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Brain Control could come back to 1. Possibly.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:10 AM   #23
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Brain Control could come back to 1. Possibly.
There is no way in hell.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrepherDK View Post
Removing 2 is not "Free", it only really becomes so when its searcher (the mini's) also act as its fodder.

Getting rid of the mini's gets rid of the problem, play some other decks with the Dragon Rulers: Gadgets, Dragunity, and Mermails all gain some great consistency, without becoming busted. Also, since you would only be playing the Dragon Ruler associated with your attribute, their self limiting "One per turn, per effect" clause would kick in, preventing the spam shenanigans we are seeing.

The cards are a necessary evil for the game now
God no they're not; they bring nothing to the game that DAD doesn't.

The minis are not the only way of filling your grave for the effect either; see every deck from the OP and how each of them, as well as most other modern decks, do it with ease.

They're just another reason to go aggro/mill happy over more controlled variants.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:32 AM   #25
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Limit both it and Goyo.
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