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Old 03-20-2013, 01:33 AM   #1
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Default Yugioh is Broken

I'm going to preface this by saying I don't want Yugioh to become like MTG, but I thought it would be interesting to talk about it.

In MTG, there are 4* different concepts of decks. The first 3 are "aggro", "midrange", and "control". Aggro are decks that are very aggressive, using cheap and/or fast creatures and spells to beat your opponent down before they can really get started. Control decks are very slow and peaceful. They contain "counterspells" to slow down their opponent, and they pack removal to get rid of their opponent's threats, including "wraths" (translation: Dark Hole) to wipe the board if needed. They try to win the game by slow attrition, gaining incremental card advantage, referred to as "grinding". Midrange decks contain cards of both control and aggro decks, and perhaps cards neither would use. They aren't as fast as aggro decks, and aren't as slow as control decks. They will pack removal and early creatures for fast starts, but also contain counters and planeswalkers/card draw for the incremental advantage.

To throw in some context, in Yugioh, I'd consider the equivalent of "aggro" decks to be simply decks that are fast, but not necessarily ones that are so fast that they will OTK all the time (Blackwings, Six Sams). Control decks are also straight-forward to define, as they would be the decks that have a ton of traps (remember HERO Beat at its peak?). Midrange is a little trickier to find a Yugioh equivalent of, but one that is quite clear are Monarchs at their peak. They weren't particularly fast or aggressive. They could consistently bring out 2400 ATK threats with bonuses, and while that is good for grind games, it wasn't exactly slow and restrictive.

The fourth kind of MTG deck is called "aggro-control." I'd first read about it here, and while it isn't anything fancy, this definition should be quite fine:

Quote:
Aggro-Control is a deck that is situated between Aggro and Control. It contains elements of both, and uses them to change between aggression and control, depending on the matchup and the game state.
Aggro-control decks can switch between fast aggressive gameplay and controlling gameplay very effectively. Their cards can act well as aggressive or controlling cards when the situation calls for it. In MTG, someone can say that they've gone into a control game with their aggressive red deck, but the fact is, the effectiveness of many of their cards became greatly reduced when they no longer played in the early game. This problem does not occur in aggro-control decks

For the MTG players out there, decks that have been referred to as "aggro-control" include Delver, Fairies, and Caw-Blade. These names should strike fear and anger into your hearts, because these are decks that dominated the Standard environment while they were legal.

So what am I getting at with this? You might have already guessed. ALL top tier Yugioh decks are aggro-control.

Caw-blade dominated the format to the point where in tournaments, odds were that you were going to play the mirror match 9 times out of 12. The deck was so powerful that Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor were emergency banned.

Sound familiar? TeleDAD dominated the format it lived in, and emergency hits were made. It indeed got to the point where you were stuck to mirror matches, tournament attendance was down, and it inevitably got hit. TeleDAD was an extremely flexible deck. You could play very aggressively, make a Synchro Summon or three, thrown down a DAD, and kill them off, given the situation allowed it. However, it could also play a long game. Card draw with Allure of Darkness and Destiny Draw were very good ways of digging for answers, while gaining incremental card advantage by discarding Malicious. If you managed to thrown down a DAD successfully, it would be very difficult for your opponent to win, as you could control the board by annihilating your opponent's cards, all the while beating them down with your 2800 ATK monster.

Look at where we are now. Control Decks have long since fallen out of play in Yugioh. Gladiator Beast decks and HERO decks were strong, but you could just sit there for a few turns before they could build up any amount of resources to actually defeat you. Going even farther back, remember when D.D. Warrior Lady and Breaker the Magical Warrior were big deals? These decks are just too slow.

Decks today in Yugioh have gotten too efficient in the attrition department, and they gain card advantage too easily. The Solemn cards and various other traps help you control the board, while your respective boss monsters (i.e. BLS, Hyperion, Grapha) can just destroy their board. The only control decks we had left were Macro Rabbit, which isn't doing too well nowadays.

Dark World functions as a control deck and an aggressive deck, whether it be throwing your hand on the table for the OTK, or deploying a few threats at a time to slowly grind out the victory. Wind-Up decks can explode very quickly, but can play a (somewhat) slow grind game if needed with their backrow, especially if they have Rabbit+Factory working. Merlanteans search efficiently, destroy efficiently, and OTK efficiently. I could go on.

If your deck lops too far to one side of the spectrum, you could simply get blown out due to lack of mobility on the other side. Chaos Dragons were favored for a short while because they could fight through attrition well with Light Pulsar and Dr. Red, but more recent builds are crushed by heavy backrow/destruction. Old Prophecy functioned mostly as a control deck, building up advantage, and were subsequently weak against OTKs.

Why is this happening? Is it because Yugioh doesn't have a resource system? Is it because Yugioh doesn't rotate sets? Well, MTG has other competitive formats that do not use set rotation, but a banlist. Yet, these formats seem to be doing just fine (well, Vintage and Legacy are a bit much).

This brings me to 1 last point. In MTG, like in Yugioh, the banlist is used to stave off problem cards/decks. But here's the thing, decks are strong and reasonable, but what is the trade off? The trade off is that newer sets, while exciting, don't have as big an impact on the environment as it does in Yugioh. Yugioh has a power creep, big surprise. Why? Because Konami wants to sell more packs. This means either annihilate existing decks for their newer decks, make newer decks stronger, or any combination of the 2, whereas MTG has a Standard format that rotates to play with these new cards, but doesn't need to push as many of these cards into the other formats.

I think I'll end the rambling here. I hope you got something out of this, take care.

---

*I should note that there is also another kind of deck called Combo, which would sort of be the equivalent of Dragon Draw Exodia and other decks of that nature, but they're not very relevant to this discussion.

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Old 03-20-2013, 01:36 AM   #2
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Again why are people comparing YGO to MTG? It will never be balanced like MTG, so give up already. We know YGO is broken, we don't care. Please people stop making such useless threads comparing YGO to MTG, its meaningless.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:38 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Bahamut ZERO View Post
Again why are people comparing YGO to MTG? It will never be balanced like MTG, so give up already. We know YGO is broken, we don't care. Please people stop making such useless threads comparing YGO to MTG, its meaningless.
I added a preface.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:38 AM   #4
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Again why are people comparing YGO to MTG? It will never be balanced like MTG, so give up already. We know YGO is broken, we don't care. Please people stop making such useless threads comparing YGO to MTG, its meaningless.
i turn 3 swing for 35+ damage in my mono green deck MTG Balanced? rofl yeah right
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I play Wind-Ups, which actually do take skill
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:43 AM   #5
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i turn 3 swing for 35+ damage in my mono green deck MTG Balanced? rofl yeah right
Is this like some broken Legacy/Vintage deck?
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:58 AM   #6
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mtg isn't very balanced imo. There's all kinds of broke loops and junk in vintage/legacy.

Also aren't samurai kinda aggro-control as well. They can obviously derp otk, but can play conservatively with just summon shi-en and full backrow(which sucks to play against).

The problem is special summons. A simple Solemn Warning can be game next turn if you special summon over 9000 times and attack for over9000.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:46 AM   #7
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There's all kinds of broke loops and junk in vintage/legacy.
Those are the equivilant of Traditional in YGO.

Which is all just Exchange FTKs...
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Old 03-20-2013, 06:51 PM   #8
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mtg isn't very balanced imo. There's all kinds of broke loops and junk in vintage/legacy.

Also aren't samurai kinda aggro-control as well. They can obviously derp otk, but can play conservatively with just summon shi-en and full backrow(which sucks to play against).

The problem is special summons. A simple Solemn Warning can be game next turn if you special summon over 9000 times and attack for over9000.
As I said, legacy and vintage are a bit much, but it isn't all FTKs.

SixSam is among the decks one could consider aggro-control, but I believe they err on the side of aggro. I'm sure you've noticed that after throwing down some threats, if they can't stay in control and the board simplifies, their subsequent plays are noticeably weaker.

There's no doubt that the ability to special summon multiple times is quite strong, but while its fast, decks weren't so efficient at card advantage that it didn't leave you with the dangerous cost of having a light hand. Decks are just too efficient, with special summoning adding some speed. IMO, part of what makes YGO appealing in a different way from MTG is this idea of being unrestricted by a limit on summoning. You could only experience this in MTG if you we're playing an aggro deck with a brilliant start.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:25 AM   #9
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Is this like some broken Legacy/Vintage deck?
No it's a Standard format legal deck it's just broken af with all the mana ramp that green has
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I play Wind-Ups, which actually do take skill
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:57 AM   #10
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............... I really get depressed when these topics come up now. I use to enjoy comparing the 2-card games with one another.
But now both have changed and evolved. For the better.

Yugioh was lossly based of the 8th edtion of magic the gathering.

But it very quickly redefind it self and changed things.

No mana/resource system, a lot of players always complain it needs this. Why? I personally hate this part about mtg. It means the game MUST have a muligian system just to work. The amount of GPs and pro tours I've seen lose out to being either mana screwed or having to much mana is unreal.
In yugioh we already open up pretty bad 25% of the time to add other cards would be a nitemere.

What konami do really well with yugioh most of the time is creating an exctiing multi-layered game.

Sure I'm not saying there perfect they do make some really silly cards from time to time. But there balanced out cos every deck has there silly cards.

Each format players complain how its "worse format ever" it really never is.

Finally, if you go to mtg forums and sites you get the same players compling about the game they "love and play" and how its awful, full of power creep, to fast or 2 slow, mana system to good or to poor.
Wizards favour that colour to this colour.

If you watch modern which is the closet format to yugioh. Look up the "eggs" deck nothing in yugioh is that daft or consistent
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:58 AM   #11
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YGO is just what I do for ****s and giggles now. Wayyyyy too much BS in this game to play it seriously.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:31 PM   #12
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No it's a Standard format legal deck it's just broken af with all the mana ramp that green has
do show this magical super deck, because If it was REALLY so massively powerful, than you'd think id see said green deck easily winning tournies, or even topping. I just checked a few websites and near a dozen or so tourny reports, this deck doesn't exist.

Also, for the sake of sanity, please, no one enter the " lol legacy/vintage" is broken arguement. Its akin to traditional in yu gi oh, and is not competitive at all.


Overall Yu gi oh was improving albiet at a snails pace, than it seems konami decided to screw the pooch and release judgement day and E-dragons(well the mini's anyway as they are the real crook here).
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:43 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Echoes prime View Post
............... I really get depressed when these topics come up now. I use to enjoy comparing the 2-card games with one another.
But now both have changed and evolved. For the better.

Yugioh was lossly based of the 8th edtion of magic the gathering.

But it very quickly redefind it self and changed things.

No mana/resource system, a lot of players always complain it needs this. Why? I personally hate this part about mtg. It means the game MUST have a muligian system just to work. The amount of GPs and pro tours I've seen lose out to being either mana screwed or having to much mana is unreal.
In yugioh we already open up pretty bad 25% of the time to add other cards would be a nitemere.

What konami do really well with yugioh most of the time is creating an exctiing multi-layered game.

Sure I'm not saying there perfect they do make some really silly cards from time to time. But there balanced out cos every deck has there silly cards.

Each format players complain how its "worse format ever" it really never is.

Finally, if you go to mtg forums and sites you get the same players compling about the game they "love and play" and how its awful, full of power creep, to fast or 2 slow, mana system to good or to poor.
Wizards favour that colour to this colour.

If you watch modern which is the closet format to yugioh. Look up the "eggs" deck nothing in yugioh is that daft or consistent
Yugioh doesn't need a resource system, I agree; again, I don't want YGO to become like MTG. But that doesn't mean Yugioh should degenerate into something unbalanced. If every deck has broken cards, the game just becomes incredibly boring and swingy. Lets leave that to traditional.

People on forums complain, big surprise.

On the subject of modern, Eggs is a very unusual case. It isn't strong enough to be broken, but it isn't weak enough to ignore. Printing Faith's Reward really put the deck over the edge though. I wouldn't be surprised to see Lotus Bloom get banned.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:54 PM   #14
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mtg can be pretty bland at times
yugioh is extremely swingy and explosive. It's a love-hate relationship.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:26 PM   #15
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No, there is no "control" in yugioh.

There is no "aggro-control" deck in yugioh.

The problem with yugioh is every single deck is entirely aggro. The only control elements, cards like Wind-Up Zenmaines, are available to basically every deck, so it's anything but a unique deck type.

A deck like Plant Synchro was aggro-control. A deck like TeleDAD was aggro-control. A deck like Perfect Circle was aggro-control. A deck like cookie-cutter chaos was aggro-control. A deck like cookie-cutter monarch aka soul control was aggro-control. A deck like synchrocat was aggro-control. Decks like blackwings, x-sabers, and agents were aggro-control. These decks ruined other decks having a chance at competing, but were very skill-oriented.

Decks today are not aggro-control. Chaos Dragon isn't aggro-control. Elemental Dragons isn't aggro-control. Dark World isn't aggro-control. Wind-ups weren't aggro-control. Fire fists, mermail, and inzektors -might- be considered aggressive control (not aggro-control, because they're aggressively controlling, not able to switch between aggro or control because they're neither.) Lightsworns and modern hero beat (bubblebeat / A Hero Lives) aren't "aggro control," but just straight aggro. Prophecy isn't aggro-control, it's aggro + a few broken control cards (aggressive play doesn't have to stem only from monsters.) Dino Rabbit is an aggro deck that becomes more controlling as it becomes more aggressive.

The problem in yugioh isn't that there's aggro-control. The problem is that there is ONLY aggro, and Konami has intentionally made them such a cut above the rest that they're the only competitive decks. Perhaps there's an aggressive control (the more aggressive you are, the more control you have over the game [EX: pushing out laggia's, using spellbook judgment day, etc,]) but there isn't aggro-control right now, at least not in the competitive scene.


PS: The competitive scene only being aggro-control is not a bad thing. When you have Aggro beating midway, midway beating control, and control beating aggro, you end up with rock paper scissors. When every deck is aggro-control the game is decided not by your match-up, but by how well you've played the game, and your skill as a player.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:00 AM   #16
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*doesn't want YGO to turn into MTG*

*talks at length about MTG*

Legit stuff, mang.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:55 AM   #17
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*doesn't want YGO to turn into MTG*

*talks at length about MTG*

Legit stuff, mang.
mang? *man

On to my opinions, after that little correction.

I personally think that Yu-Gi-Oh should not become like magic. One the other hand, it still needs to change a bit. Actually, a lot. The game is too broken, and certain decks are so much better than others to the extent where there is really no chance of victory- or at least, a very low chance of victory- if you are not using one of "those" decks.

Yugioh is just an old hobby for me now, I keep a few decks together but nothing more than that. I know that something is gonna get banlisted in the META and Konami will replace something even more broken to replace it, because that is how they seem to make money nowadays. The game is killing itself. I dont think that they should nuke the game and make a magic clone, or change it to be a bit more like magic, but they should balance it, although I worry that at this point they cannot.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:19 PM   #18
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Yu-Gi-Oh! IS Broken

Stop playing or stop complaining
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:26 AM   #19
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No, there is no "control" in yugioh.

There is no "aggro-control" deck in yugioh.

The problem with yugioh is every single deck is entirely aggro. The only control elements, cards like Wind-Up Zenmaines, are available to basically every deck, so it's anything but a unique deck type.

A deck like Plant Synchro was aggro-control. A deck like TeleDAD was aggro-control. A deck like Perfect Circle was aggro-control. A deck like cookie-cutter chaos was aggro-control. A deck like cookie-cutter monarch aka soul control was aggro-control. A deck like synchrocat was aggro-control. Decks like blackwings, x-sabers, and agents were aggro-control. These decks ruined other decks having a chance at competing, but were very skill-oriented.

Decks today are not aggro-control. Chaos Dragon isn't aggro-control. Elemental Dragons isn't aggro-control. Dark World isn't aggro-control. Wind-ups weren't aggro-control. Fire fists, mermail, and inzektors -might- be considered aggressive control (not aggro-control, because they're aggressively controlling, not able to switch between aggro or control because they're neither.) Lightsworns and modern hero beat (bubblebeat / A Hero Lives) aren't "aggro control," but just straight aggro. Prophecy isn't aggro-control, it's aggro + a few broken control cards (aggressive play doesn't have to stem only from monsters.) Dino Rabbit is an aggro deck that becomes more controlling as it becomes more aggressive.

The problem in yugioh isn't that there's aggro-control. The problem is that there is ONLY aggro, and Konami has intentionally made them such a cut above the rest that they're the only competitive decks. Perhaps there's an aggressive control (the more aggressive you are, the more control you have over the game [EX: pushing out laggia's, using spellbook judgment day, etc,]) but there isn't aggro-control right now, at least not in the competitive scene.


PS: The competitive scene only being aggro-control is not a bad thing. When you have Aggro beating midway, midway beating control, and control beating aggro, you end up with rock paper scissors. When every deck is aggro-control the game is decided not by your match-up, but by how well you've played the game, and your skill as a player.
I would argue that decks like Dark World and Wind-Ups are indeed aggro-control, as when push comes to shove, they are effective at slowing down and playing the long game, while being less fragile than decks like Plant Synchro or Perfect Monarch. You might want to rethink your games playing as or against Dark World, as I really don't think they're full on aggro. Aggro-control are able to switch agendas between aggro and control; this flexibility is what makes them so strong. Aggro decks have the common theme of "running out of gas", as in they can play the early game well, but fall apart as the game goes longer. This definitely doesn't describe decks like Suppressor Dragons, Dark World, Wind-Ups, etc, as they're so efficient that they can create an absurd amount of card advantage out of very little, being able to control and stabilize the game. A note about Bubblebeat, is that although it errs to the side of aggro, despite not being so OTK prone, it behaves largely aggro-control, as they're very flexible in their agendas.

In response to the PS, it isn't so clear cut like that; sometimes a hand isn't fast enough and an opposing aggro deck comes out on top; sometimes a hand is very strong, and a your control deck grinds out the victory. Although every deck being the same archetype does increase the skill level to some degree, I think that if the game becomes very mundane, possibly coin-flip like to some degree, if that becomes the case.

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*doesn't want YGO to turn into MTG*

*talks at length about MTG*

Legit stuff, mang.
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Yu-Gi-Oh! IS Broken

Stop playing or stop complaining
You guys really don't find it interesting to talk about it? That's too bad.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:45 AM   #20
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Of course Yugioh is going to be in an out of control flux, when the game is being pulled by the fast pace anime and manga.

No mention of Duel Masters, which I see as the middle man of these two games.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:01 AM   #21
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:49 PM   #22
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Yu-Gi-Oh's been broken since 2010....
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:00 PM   #23
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Yu-Gi-Oh's been broken since 2010....
Yugioh has always been broken to a certain extent. All TCG are unbalanced but Yugioh has always been more so than others. It has been escelating fairly rapidly in the past few years, however- I think that the more the broken-ness rises, the more the skill level drops, as well; altho i do think that mermails, prophecies and elemental dragons may take a bit moar skill to run than windups and dino bunnies.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:17 PM   #24
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It not Tele dad format broken.
Agreed, to a certain extent. As I said, all formats were somewhat broken but some are simply more broken than others. The difference between Tele-DAD is that the deck generally took more skill to run than decks nowadays and had less completely crazy combos.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:53 PM   #25
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Yu-gi-oh is a game where its entire history has always been to move on to the next fad, the next big theme.
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