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Old 12-24-2012, 08:09 PM   #51
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>People still not taking this as a satire

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Old 12-24-2012, 11:47 PM   #52
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You have to draw it. How's that for a limitation?
You have to draw atleast two cards to summon Gunman. Sounds like the same issue.

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So you're saying getting 2 (ANY 2) level 4s in the field is hard?
Far harder than playing a single Spell. Drawing 2 as is, or drawing 1 card. Hardly comparable. Yes, Ookazi is 100% better if you want the burn. If you want the monster, no duh this is the better choice.

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Congrats, now you need to draw 2 cards. You know what else you can do with 2 cards? Molten Transmission Field and Rekindling!
Technically, that's atleast 3, if not 6 overall. And btw, the Gunman play is still 3 cards, not 2.

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Ah, yes, you had to play the dreaded Monster Reborn card.
I also mentioned Call Of The Haunted. And since I can special summon a monster easily while Call's on the field... yeah, seriously, Cannon Soldier is still easier to OTK with than Gunman ever would be.

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It ends games in MP2... after the vanillas swing directly. You get the attacks and the burn (and that's why I compare it to DSF, though it's admittedly weaker).
Except DSF is ten times better in every way. 800 damage is hardly comparable to 1400, plus atleast 1600 more if those "Vanillas" exist at the same time. Sorry, no, this is a very crappy burn card in every way. Except for the ones that do less damage, except still easier to pull off.

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So is Tinplate Archduke.
I'm not sure why you would bring this up. I mean, clearly, if there's tons of other cards that are far better... I would not necessarily waste my extra deck space on a crappy burner and crappy beatstick. He does neither extremely good at all, nor are they spectacular together. Congrats, you're talking about a very useful card, but that's it.

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As I said, there is a good chance you'll lose, when you'd have remained in the game with few LP.
First, let's assume you get all the attacks off(iffy), second, let's assume you ever summon him successfully(iffy as hell, especially with Fiendish Chain, Solemn Warning, Solemn Judgment, the rare case of Black Horn of Heaven, Thunder King Rai-Oh, Effect Veiler, Bottomless Trap Hole, Book of Moon) and get his effect him. All really rare cases.

I'd be scared if you were talking about someone with a strong burn capability(I.E. Chaos Emperor Dragon). This isn't one of those cards.

But you did kind of admit this is more or less a troll thread, anyway. Fun debate, though. One of the more balances]d designs I've ever seen, being versatile without being broken. And no, it's not a giant game-ender. It has the ability to, but not spectacularly well. I'd still rather face this than a BLS + Honest(two of which are actual broken cards).
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:55 PM   #53
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Fad is waaaaaay too good at this. I lost it at "That's like comparing Future Fusion and Painful Choice!"
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:28 AM   #54
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ok so clearly Spike Spiegel is too OP for this game, needs to be banned now
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THIS YUGIOH CARD GENERATES MORE THAN A +0, THEREFORE IT IS ABUSABLE, BANWORTHY, ADDS TO THE POWER CREEP, DEGENERATE, FUELS OTKS, UNFAIR, IMBALANCED, TOO POWERFUL, AND SHOULD BE BANNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:54 AM   #55
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I can imagine Rabbit getting the most use out of this, which isn't a good thing is it?
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:36 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
You have to draw atleast two cards to summon Gunman. Sounds like the same issue.

Far harder than playing a single Spell. Drawing 2 as is, or drawing 1 card. Hardly comparable. Yes, Ookazi is 100% better if you want the burn. If you want the monster, no duh this is the better choice.
1. I can name 5 ways off the top of my head to summon rank 4s with 1 card, given some reasonable assumptions (nothing more extreme than the Treeborn case.)
2. ANY lvl 4 will do. You don't have to draw a specific card, as is the case with Ookazi.


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Technically, that's atleast 3, if not 6 overall. And btw, the Gunman play is still 3 cards, not 2.
The Treeborn & Cannon Soldier case assumes either opponent interaction or wasting an additional card, waiting a turn, and having no backrow. Don't act like having certain cards in your deck is as rare as opening with Exodia.

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I also mentioned Call Of The Haunted. And since I can special summon a monster easily while Call's on the field...
I'm sure Treeborn Frog will appreciate Call Of The Haunted!

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yeah, seriously, Cannon Soldier is still easier to OTK with than Gunman ever would be.
You CANNOT compare main deck cards to extra deck cards on equal terms.

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Except DSF is ten times better in every way. 800 damage is hardly comparable to 1400, plus atleast 1600 more if those "Vanillas" exist at the same time. Sorry, no, this is a very crappy burn card in every way. Except for the ones that do less damage, except still easier to pull off.
I believe I mentioned "weaker" somewhere. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue if it were 200-300 LP, but 800 damage is enough in a good amount of lategame situations. Of course, you need to play the game before understanding how.

And if you don't like the DSF comparison, how about BLS-EOTB? You don't always see it, but when you do, it's there to say "lol gg m'kay?".


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I'm not sure why you would bring this up. I mean, clearly, if there's tons of other cards that are far better...
You started it, with Utopia and the Papillon-thingie...

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I would not necessarily waste my extra deck space on a crappy burner and crappy beatstick. He does neither extremely good at all, nor are they spectacular together. Congrats, you're talking about a very useful card, but that's it.
Don't play it then. Remember Rescue Cat in Glads? Some sworn by it, some passed.

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First, let's assume you get all the attacks off(iffy), second, let's assume you ever summon him successfully(iffy as hell, especially with Fiendish Chain, Solemn Warning, Solemn Judgment, the rare case of Black Horn of Heaven, Thunder King Rai-Oh, Effect Veiler, Bottomless Trap Hole, Book of Moon) and get his effect him. All really rare cases.

I'd be scared if you were talking about someone with a strong burn capability(I.E. Chaos Emperor Dragon). This isn't one of those cards.
>naming the common outs to Gagaga Gunman
>mentioning Chaos Emperor Dragon

I'll let that sink in for a while.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:20 AM   #57
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Wow hes good at trolling.

To those still arguing with him

*facepalm*
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:21 AM   #58
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1. I can name 5 ways off the top of my head to summon rank 4s with 1 card, given some reasonable assumptions (nothing more extreme than the Treeborn case.)
2. ANY lvl 4 will do. You don't have to draw a specific card, as is the case with Ookazi.
I didn't realize Treeborn Frog stopped being a splashable +1 monster that works in everything that isn't a Field Spell or Continuous Spell/Trap card deck... oh, wait. No, that was a pretty normal example of easy as hell burn.

No, not any level 4 will do. Only ones that can easily spam them out. Otherwise, you need to have a way to consistently have two level 4's on the field. Which isn't some super easy task these days. You're rarely lucky to have one with all the destruction/banish effects around.

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The Treeborn & Cannon Soldier case assumes either opponent interaction or wasting an additional card, waiting a turn, and having no backrow. Don't act like having certain cards in your deck is as rare as opening with Exodia.
It's not even a rare scenario. Both are at 3. Both are easy as hell to summon with no cost(although one has a decent restriction). And the only direct counter to it is D.D. Crow, which is seeing a bit less play.

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I'm sure Treeborn Frog will appreciate Call Of The Haunted!
Except the fact I covered that earlier. Call Of The Haunted is for Cannon Soldier. I can special summon up the wazoo regardless of Treeborn Frog. Cyber Dragon is yet another example of easy summoning. Really, there is never going to be a case where Gunman is better than Cannon Soldier. And since you can't topdeck a Level 4 Rank summon, unless you run Debris Dragon with Level 4's with 500 or less attack(somebody runs those? There's very few worth running.), you ain't topdecking a win.

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You CANNOT compare main deck cards to extra deck cards on equal terms.
I sure as hell can. The effect, what cards they work with, and others determine how powerful a card is. The extra deck thing really does not make it special at all. Like, ever. That might work for some, but this card is way too weak as is to be a problem. It is a very good card, yes. But a problem? Not even close.

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I believe I mentioned "weaker" somewhere. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue if it were 200-300 LP, but 800 damage is enough in a good amount of lategame situations. Of course, you need to play the game before understanding how.


Still not an issue at all. Congrats; You can end a game with a Xyz summon and a bit of damage. I can do the same with spell variations, or other burn monsters just as easily. It's just plain overrated. Good does not mean broken, and it pretty much isn't in any possible way. Too weak, too suspectible to counters, far more than a lot of other cards, and if you do get it off the field, it's even more useless. It's useless without its materials, which, you know, if it's forced to be revived... and since nobody uses the Xyz support for that...

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And if you don't like the DSF comparison, how about BLS-EOTB? You don't always see it, but when you do, it's there to say "lol gg m'kay?".
Hyper easy to counter, so no. I'm more worried about his combination with Honest, and the fact I can negate his summon and he ain't coming back in most cases. Which is why a weak burn monster that needs to be special summoned first is far weaker than a spell card that does the same thing. The only thing that prevents Ookazi(etc.) from ever being able to be re-used(like another copy, since if you deck one, you should deck 2 minimum if you're literally using burn-based spells) is Cursed Seal. Which almost nobody uses(for good reasons, the cost is a bit hard to pay, even if the reward is actually pretty good at times, like stopping an MST).

Oh, and fyi, I do see them coming and kill them rather easily. In fact, I'm more worried about a lot of other boss monsters. Honest is the only time he worries me. Otherwise, meh. Banish effect is sometimes annoying, but that's it.(and that's what a Fiendish or Veiler is for) Not saying he ain't broken, but they're hardly comparable. You're comparing him to cards that have actual broken effects, not super weak ones.(his attack boost is actually decently good, if your opponent has a face-up monster, which isn't always the case, which is a major weakness too)

No, his burn effect is nowhere near comparable to anything but spell burners at this point. There's just as easy to activate, and you know, they're better.

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You started it, with Utopia and the Papillon-thingie...
Let me put it this way; If you're naming better cards, it only further serves to help my part of the debate, not yours. More specifically, when you're telling me that you find other cards better, how does that help your case?

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Don't play it then. Remember Rescue Cat in Glads? Some sworn by it, some passed.
Hardly relevant here. But the fact that card was actually, you know, powerful? And not overrated by any margin? Had an actual good and abusable effect? Wasn't once per turn? Apples and oranges.

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>naming the common outs to Gagaga Gunman
>mentioning Chaos Emperor Dragon

I'll let that sink in for a while.
[/quote]

>Implying I'm actually comparing it to CED
>Implying I wasn't talking about how your complaining was sounding

I do apologize if that seems a bit rude to say, but yes, I feel like you're mentioning something along the lines of CED at this point. Which we both know is way off. Either way, this'll never be honestly hitworthy.

Gunman is more playable, but his effect is far worse. So it's a fair trade off. He's a glorified Utopia Ray/Ookazi. Neither is exactly powerful in any way. And neither were hitworthy, nor is this. Like, at all.

I should note your OP didn't really help matters either. Yes, you got hit by a measly burn damage and lost. Unless you want to ban every card that can burn for a bit of damage(and I do mean them all), there's no reason to ban this card. If it sees play and takes games often enough, a limit could be justified(although I really doubt it will). And if the burn damage gets overused enough, some counters'll be played.

Other than a burn deck, where he might shine a bit, I don't see much of a reason to play him when I got better things to put into my deck. Still would rather play Utopia, Photon Palipporate, Tin Archduke, hell, I've won rather easily using Thunder Spark Dragon.(hard to get out, but damn, he's a pretty good card, even if extremely vulnerable)

Basically, while I do agree he's a pretty good card, he's not broken or even overpowered as is. A late game ender is actually something that should exist. It means that if you're nearly done for, that last bit is a cool comeback. Also, the fact that it works based upon his position means a single Enemy Controller can screw him over, which is funny as is. Now, if he could use his effect regardless of position, he'd be versatile. Unfortunately, that's not the case. They made sure both effects were not hyper easy to use by default, and very vulnerable to counters.

Although I do have to ask; Did you intend this to be a troll topic? Or do you actually believe this card could become a problem in the future?
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:40 AM   #59
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Aw making remember Rescue Cat in GBs. Gunman isn't broken. He can attack over anything with less than 3000 attack or burn your opponent ONCE PER TURN for 800 damage. It's a great way to end the game or attack over a beater. He's a very good card, but in no way is he broken.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:41 AM   #60
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Card is OP. To 0. Good riddance.

Merry Christmas FAD
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:46 AM   #61
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People are just being butt hurt.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:48 AM   #62
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I say we Banish Gorz instead. And send his pal Tragoedia with him.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:52 AM   #63
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Gorz is good for the game though.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:57 AM   #64
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Gorz is good for the game though.
No, he isn't. He overpunishes a direct attack. You have to play without any backrow to make him usable. He does not promote good play by any margin. That token does not help either.

Tragoedia requires strategy to use properly. And has good but hardly abusable effects. He does not end games easily like Gorz does. Trag should be at 3 right now.

Anyway, I do agree, Gunman is not broken at all. It is definitely overrated, and definitely a good card. But good =/= broken.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:00 PM   #65
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In this case Gunman is way too broken to stay even at 1. Being a burn card from the extra deck has never been good thing. The fact that requires only 2 level 4s makes it even worse and splashable in every deck.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:01 PM   #66
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He punishes people who go for the OTK. He can help combat the decks that just spit up on the field.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:10 PM   #67
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If you fear OTKs so much run Swift Scarecrow or Battle FAD!er.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:14 PM   #68
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If you fear OTKs so much run Swift Scarecrow or Battle FAD!er.
Those prevent it, not combat it. I don't run Gorz.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:18 PM   #69
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Fear otks? Play Gusto! =D
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:19 PM   #70
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Those prevent it, not combat it. I don't run Gorz.
He combats it then goes for the OTK with ease.

He actually contributes to creating OTK's, not helping prevent them.

@Shuckle: The burn frankly sucks. And anybody who knows what this card is can easily stop it from ever working most of the time. Only his battle effect is worth noting, since it actually doesn't entirely suck.

No, he is not banworthy at all. He's too weak for that. Extra Deck burners are only broken when they have no limit to how many times. That's why DSF was broken. And that's why Gunman isn't. Cause he's super limited to how often he can do this. DSF, the only other Extra Deck burner that was used by any margin, had zero limits and could attack. Gunman is beyond limited. Either a beyond crappy burn, or a decently strong "take down very high-powered monster" effect. Of which neither are strong on their own. And neither are actually broken together. He's a good card, but broken is overstating its impact as is.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:21 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
I didn't realize Treeborn Frog stopped being a splashable +1 monster that works in everything that isn't a Field Spell or Continuous Spell/Trap card deck... oh, wait..
For varying definitions of "splashable", "+1", "works" and "everything".

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No, that was a pretty normal example of easy as hell burn.
I know, right? I get that every day:

"Treeborn, Cannon Soldier, gg bro"

NO, IT'S NOT A GOOD GAME. I'D RATHER BE SACKED BY Judgment Dragon!

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No, not any level 4 will do. Only ones that can easily spam them out. Otherwise, you need to have a way to consistently have two level 4's on the field. Which isn't some super easy task these days. You're rarely lucky to have one with all the destruction/banish effects around.
Do you know why the destruction/banish effects are around? There is spam everywhere, but of course you have to play the game to see it...

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It's not even a rare scenario. Both are at 3. Both are easy as hell to summon with no cost(although one has a decent restriction). And the only direct counter to it is D.D. Crow, which is seeing a bit less play.
I didn't say it's rare, I said you can do worse (or better, depends on your side) thing with 2 maindeck cards.

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Except the fact I covered that earlier. Call Of The Haunted is for Cannon Soldier. I can special summon up the wazoo regardless of Treeborn Frog. Cyber Dragon is yet another example of easy summoning.
Are we talking about Cannon Soldier or the Soldier/Treeborn combo here? Because COTH won't help in the second case. Not that you'd run Cannon Soldier in anything but a dedicated deck, if that.

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Really, there is never going to be a case where Gunman is better than Cannon Soldier.
Instead of playing the "you have to draw it" card again, how about when you can't spare the summon for Cannon Soldier.

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And since you can't topdeck a Level 4 Rank summon, unless you run Debris Dragon with Level 4's with 500 or less attack(somebody runs those? There's very few worth running.), you ain't topdecking a win.
Guaiba/Shura/Rescue Rabbit/Rekindling/Wolfberk

There.


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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
I sure as hell can. The effect, what cards they work with, and others determine how powerful a card is. The extra deck thing really does not make it special at all. Like, ever. That might work for some, but this card is way too weak as is to be a problem. It is a very good card, yes. But a problem? Not even close.
Why don't you put Ookazi in your deck then?

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Still not an issue at all. Congrats; You can end a game with a Xyz summon and a bit of damage. I can do the same with spell variations, or other burn monsters just as easily. It's just plain overrated. Good does not mean broken, and it pretty much isn't in any possible way. Too weak, too suspectible to counters, far more than a lot of other cards, and if you do get it off the field, it's even more useless. It's useless without its materials, which, you know, if it's forced to be revived... and since nobody uses the Xyz support for that...
I didn't say that it wins every game. I said that the games it ends are won in an unfair manner.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Which is why a weak burn monster that needs to be special summoned first is far weaker than a spell card that does the same thing. The only thing that prevents Ookazi(etc.) from ever being able to be re-used(like another copy, since if you deck one, you should deck 2 minimum if you're literally using burn-based spells) is Cursed Seal. Which almost nobody uses(for good reasons, the cost is a bit hard to pay, even if the reward is actually pretty good at times, like stopping an MST).
Might as well run Spell Reclamation with that Ookazi. Like a sir.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
You're comparing him to cards that have actual broken effects, not super weak ones.(his attack boost is actually decently good, if your opponent has a face-up monster, which isn't always the case, which is a major weakness too)
Yes, that's how exaggerations work.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
No, his burn effect is nowhere near comparable to anything but spell burners at this point. There's just as easy to activate, and you know, they're better.
You mentioned Honest somewhere. Does that mean you find Photon Rising Stream/Lumenize comparable?

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Let me put it this way; If you're naming better cards, it only further serves to help my part of the debate, not yours. More specifically, when you're telling me that you find other cards better, how does that help your case?
I mention Tinplate Archduke and you think I'm talking about good cards.

Bio-Mage. Misairuzame. Queen Bird.

What now?


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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Hardly relevant here. But the fact that card was actually, you know, powerful? And not overrated by any margin? Had an actual good and abusable effect? Wasn't once per turn? Apples and oranges.
And yet people chose not to play Rescue Cat.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
>Implying I'm actually comparing it to CED
>Implying I wasn't talking about how your complaining was sounding

I do apologize if that seems a bit rude to say, but yes, I feel like you're mentioning something along the lines of CED at this point. Which we both know is way off. Either way, this'll never be honestly hitworthy.
Of course it didn't sink in.

I suppose I have to explain. You brought up CED right after you said "but look, all these cards stop Gagaga Gunman". You know what else they stop? CED!

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
I should note your OP didn't really help matters either. Yes, you got hit by a measly burn damage and lost.
No, I just see every second harpie game ending like that.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Unless you want to ban every card that can burn for a bit of damage(and I do mean them all), there's no reason to ban this card. If it sees play and takes games often enough, a limit could be justified(although I really doubt it will). And if the burn damage gets overused enough, some counters'll be played.
>Limit
>Extra Deck card

If you just stopped typing for a while, you'd realize this never stopped Brionac/Trishula/Goyo Guardian. Where are these cards now?

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Other than a burn deck, where he might shine a bit, I don't see much of a reason to play him when I got better things to put into my deck. Still would rather play Utopia, Photon Palipporate, Tin Archduke, hell, I've won rather easily using Thunder Spark Dragon.(hard to get out, but damn, he's a pretty good card, even if extremely vulnerable)
Again, why should I care whether you use it or not? You can go build Light Spiral Mill.dek for all I care.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Basically, while I do agree he's a pretty good card, he's not broken or even overpowered as is. A late game ender is actually something that should exist. It means that if you're nearly done for, that last bit is a cool comeback. Also, the fact that it works based upon his position means a single Enemy Controller can screw him over, which is funny as is. Now, if he could use his effect regardless of position, he'd be versatile. Unfortunately, that's not the case. They made sure both effects were not hyper easy to use by default, and very vulnerable to counters.
Enemy Controller will ruin your play? Yeah, I'll pass. You win this one. What can I say?

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Although I do have to ask; Did you intend this to be a troll topic? Or do you actually believe this card could become a problem in the future?
Future? The card is out. IT'S ALREADY A PROBLEM!
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:48 PM   #72
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The only two cards that can easily make this are Gadgets(who are all terribly designed anyway), and Goblindbergh.
My Wind-Ups are laughing so hard at you right now. We can crap this guy out all day long if we want.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:49 PM   #73
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>soldier+treeborn combos

Where's mah quilbolt hedgehog OTK talk?

all you need is toon/Cannon Soldier + Tuner like spore+foolish burial->quilbolt+imperial iron wall.

It ain't that hard!!!!

.....

*ahem, as you were.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:05 PM   #74
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The only way this card is a problem is if Sams open up the infinite combo.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:29 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by LunarWingCloud View Post
My Wind-Ups are laughing so hard at you right now. We can crap this guy out all day long if we want.
And it still wouldn't be broken in any possible way.

But they can Xyz spam often due to crap like Magician and Rat, so they're the problems anyway.

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Originally Posted by Joenen View Post
>soldier+treeborn combos

Where's mah quilbolt hedgehog OTK talk?

all you need is toon/Cannon Soldier + Tuner like spore+foolish burial->quilbolt+imperial iron wall.

It ain't that hard!!!!

.....

*ahem, as you were.
You do realize I'm not talking about an OTK, right? Frankly, you don't need any of that. What I'm talking about is a far better burn combo than Gunman will ever be for that last bit of damage. And it's far more splashable in the long run. Treeborn Frog is good in almost every deck for that extra defense. Of course, the card isn't an issue on its own either. But the fact that it's easy to get advantage with it, especially the burn card, makes it better in that department.

The only noteworthy thing Gunman ever had was his 1500 boost ability. And that's not super special awesome either, as more than enough boss monsters can't be targeted by card effects, etc. A simple beatstick is not strong.

Either way, card is a nice card to put in your extra deck, but that's... it?

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Originally Posted by FAD! View Post
I didn't say that it wins every game. I said that the games it ends are won in an unfair manner.
Honestly, the rest was so much ridiculous hyperbole, this was the only one that I could reply to.

There is nothing unfair about doing the last bit of damage via burn. Ever.

However, I do take back what I said about how easy he is to summon. However, the summon is not ultimately special enough to matter.
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Last edited by Hydronix : 12-25-2012 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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