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Old 11-17-2012, 10:54 PM   #1
Hydronix
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Default March 2013 List

Yes, I screwed up on the title last time. However, I will admit I know little about the Geargaia and Atlantean/Mermail stuff so I won't be putting them on the list. Suggestions are welcome.

Forbidden
Sangan - The main reason for this is to take out extremely generic searching. Some non-generic searchers are fine at 1 or more. The problem is this lacks any real weaknesses. It is not banned for TGU either. In fact, it has nothing to do with this card's banning, so don't argue it.
Chimeratech Fortress Dragon - The point of this is to mainly allow Machines to still prosper without getting them or its opposers an instant advantage card. With the english release of Magnetic Bagworm, which kills Machines, we have a perfect fair counter that is defensive, and won't easily grab you a win at all.
T.G. Hyper Librarian - A ridiculous plusser that makes Synchro summons way too cheap and unfair. Without it, not even Lavals will do much. Or any Synchro Spam deck.
Leviair the Sea Dragon - This pretty much takes away the derp from Dino-Rabbit decks. With the latest Tins, Dino-Rabbit is going to explode as a deck, meaning this'll be even more powerful.
Charge of the Light Brigade - This is a way too splashable searcher that has one major problem with it; It doesn't need to be in a pure Lightsworn deck. The free mill also does nothing but help people OTK or win as is with utter ease. To 0.
Gateway of the Six - This prevents the main Six Sam spam, as well as stops them from being too powerful.
Monster Reborn - I shouldn't need to explain this, but this needs to go. While I don't see it happening till ZeXal ends(and its advertisement gone), it doesn't need to be higher than 0 in Advanced.
Pot of Avarice - Stops the ridiculous amount of combos and filling your graveyard should not make for an easy plus.
Solemn Judgment - I've heard it all before. The problem is, this is too versatile. Banning it will allow people to depend on cards that isn't usable at any time, and isn't always going to be perfect.

Limited
Dark Magician of Chaos - Without Monster Reborn, he's not a problem. He's not a problem in Prophecy either. He's slow, and leads to severely dead hands.
Green Gadget - Free +1 that only leads to sacks.
Laval Volcano Handmaiden - I've had enough of the easy graveyard milling. This stops it cold. Heh, puns.
Red Gadget - Free +1 that only leads to sacks.
Sinister Serpent - A useless +1 that only serves to make the meta more interesting, but wouldn't hurt it in any way.
Tribe-Infecting Virus - Contrary to popular belief, it is not very good in Merlanteans, which means there's zero reason to keep it banned.
Yellow Gadget - Specifically, much like the other two, this is to prevent their plusses from being a problem. At 1 each, they're not broken at all and mediocre.
Thousand-Eyes Restrict - Others whined about card. It's nice tech, but won't do anything of note regardless. It's "good", but that's it.
Wind-Up Magician - At 1, this prevents the ridiculous spam.
Wind-Up Rat - No more constant plusses at all.
Madolche Chateau -The hardest it is to get, the harder the deck is to spam monsters. Now it's too rare to an issue.
Mystical Space Typhoon - An overpowered card that is way too versatile. At 1, it can't do much of anything, and we have tons of fair replacements with actual weaknesses or "doesn't work as well". Twister, Breaker the Magical Warrior, Tornado, Dust Tornado, for starters.

Semi-Limited
Molten Transmission Field - As I said earlier, easy milling is ridiculous.
Rekindling - Lessens the chance of using it, and with the other hits, Lavals won't be sacking much at all.

Unlimited
Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner - Without Charge, this can move up without any issues. JD is not hit since it may not do a thing. If the playtesting makes it too powerful, JD would go down to 2 or 1, respectively. But that's not for sure.
Shien's Smoke Signal - Without Gateway of the Six, there's no more derp they can do. A first turn Shi-En isn't scary as is. Multiples of them are scary enough to keep it limited, though.
Mind Crush - It's currently one of the few things we can use against searching powers, and Dark Worlds doesn't even use it anymore.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:57 PM   #2
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So, basically you've hit pretty much none of the actual problem cards, and instead hit cards that you personally have problems with. Ok. the only on this list that makes any sense really is Leviair, the rest seem extremely unrealistic, and probably wont happen this list, if ever.
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We're the Knights of the Round Table,
Our combos are formidable.
But in the regards, we're given cards
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:59 PM   #3
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Everybody knows it's a wishlist. And what part of "suggestions" isn't noted?

I did forget a few, my bad. Got the rest. Remind me if I missed something that isn't clearly covered by the choices.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:04 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Everybody knows it's a wishlist. And what part of "suggestions" isn't noted?

I did forget a few, my bad. Fixed with 4 more than deserves their spots now.
Why do you want to hit the Gadgets lol? they're fine at 3. If you want to hit Machines, hit Gear Gigant X and/or Geargiarmour, as they're the universal problem cards in the competitive builds.
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Originally Posted by Koreish
We're the Knights of the Round Table,
Our combos are formidable.
But in the regards, we're given cards
That are quite unplayable.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Retrodaniel View Post
Why do you want to hit the Gadgets lol? they're fine at 3. If you want to hit Machines, hit Gear Gigant X and/or Geargiarmour, as they're the universal problem cards in the competitive builds.
No, they're not fine at 3. They cause nothing but OTK's. They're barely fine at 2. And it's not hitting "Machines", it's hitting specific ones.

Anyway, I'd probably hit Armor, but could you explain your reasons for the additions? I'm preferenced to hitting consistency in some cases, if the consistency card is generic or just way too freakin' power.(like Charge is)
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:03 AM   #6
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Dear god.....
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Hinks, your logic is extremely flawed. Heavy is a necessary evil to keep the game at a steady pace. MST should not be at 3 when it is legal.
^Logic fail
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:21 AM   #7
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I'm kinda curious but how do the Gadgets searching lead to sacks?
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by n1ghtmare90 View Post
I'm kinda curious but how do the Gadgets searching lead to sacks?
If they can't search multiples of themselves, as in, only 3 total members, they can't summon spam. The "materials" do not exist. Their spam is as good as the materials. Take away the materials, no real spam. It's almost impossible for them to sack a win out as is. They have no real OTK power at one each. Regardless of the term used, they are balanced at 1 each, how they were supposed to be used. Without Pot of Avarice, you cannot abuse the earlier copies. No extra searching, no extra spam, no "sack".
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
No, they're not fine at 3. They cause nothing but OTK's. They're barely fine at 2. And it's not hitting "Machines", it's hitting specific ones.
How do they themselves cause otks? They lead to large hands okay. But otherwise they are just 1400 beaters. Now the cards that throw them to the field and the splashable boss monsters are the problems. Even then you get 1 xyz off of a Tin Plate or a Double Summon(or various other dumb cards that no one runs). I believe the true problem does stem from Machina Fortress and Gear Giant. Gear Giant makes such good abuse of Tin Plate it is not even funny.

Imagine a hand of: 1 gadget, 1 Tin Plate Gold Fish
Summon Tin Plate>summon gadget>get gadget>Xyz into Gear Giant>Detach Tin Plate>add Gearframe to hand.

Now you are set up for a great number of plays next turn. you can get the same Tin Plate back or summon Gear Frame or even search out another gear frame. My favorite is Get Tin Plate back>summon Tin Plate>Summon Gadget>get gadget>xyz into Gear Giant>detach Tin Plate>add gear frame.
Thus setting you up for the same play next turn depending upon how many Gear Giants you play this can be repeated up to 3 times.

Sure this could be ended if each Gadget was at 1 but that would needlessly kill a perfectly fine deck. Instead hit the power cards instead of the consistency. Hit fortress and Gear Giant. Fortress is a splashable machine boss monster that is searchable via his own 1800 beater that can be searched from the deck. Gear giant is also a splashable boss monster for machines that searches out a great deal of monsters and puts a strain on what future machines will have to look like.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:36 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
If they can't search multiples of themselves, as in, only 3 total members, they can't summon spam. The "materials" do not exist. Their spam is as good as the materials. Take away the materials, no real spam. It's almost impossible for them to sack a win out as is. They have no real OTK power at one each. Regardless of the term used, they are balanced at 1 each, how they were supposed to be used. Without Pot of Avarice, you cannot abuse the earlier copies. No extra searching, no extra spam, no "sack".
Last Time I checked the Gadgets couldn't special summon themselves. they're all with low attack and the searching means nothing if they cant be put to use. the only time they were ever a problem, was when Ultimate Offering was a 3, and sometimes when it was at 2. You seem to just want to hit them because they replace themselves, but that isnt going to help them anymore without a method to summon them. I'd rather hit Machina Gearframe and/or Geargiaarmour, as at least they search monsters that can cause a threat by themselves.
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Originally Posted by Koreish
We're the Knights of the Round Table,
Our combos are formidable.
But in the regards, we're given cards
That are quite unplayable.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:37 AM   #11
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oh and Ultimate Offering should be hit. I didn't mention it in my response because the play is so long and annoying to type.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:42 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by n1ghtmare90 View Post
How do they themselves cause otks? They lead to large hands okay. But otherwise they are just 1400 beaters. Now the cards that throw them to the field are the problems. Even then you get 1 xyz off of a Tin Plate or a Double Summon(or various other dumb cards that no one runs). I believe the true problem does stem from Machina Fortress and Gear Giant. Gear Giant makes such good abuse of Tin Plate it is not even funny.
None of those cards are actually problems. Tinplate Golfish, Ultimate Offering, and Double Summon are all perfectly fine cards that have never been an issue outside of poorly designed easy plusses. And Gear Giant and Machina may be hittable too.

Quote:
Imagine a hand of: 1 gadget, 1 Tin Plate Gold Fish
Summon Tin Plate>summon gadget>get gadget>Xyz into Gear Giant>Detach Tin Plate>add Gearframe to hand.
Okay, Gear Gigant X to 1 as well. That is the card you meant, right?

Quote:
Now you are set up for a great number of plays next turn. you can get the same Tin Plate back or summon Gear Frame or even search out another gear frame. My favorite is Get Tin Plate back>summon Tin Plate>Summon Gadget>get gadget>xyz into Gear Giant>detach Tin Plate>add gear frame.
Thus setting you up for the same play next turn depending upon how many Gear Giants you play this can be repeated up to 3 times.
Tin Plate may be hittable too. I'm fine with that.

Quote:
Sure this could be ended if each Gadget was at 1 but that would needlessly kill a perfectly fine deck. Instead hit the power cards instead of the consistency. Hit fortress and Gear Giant. Fortress is a splashable machine boss monster that is searchable via his own 1800 beater that can be searched from the deck. Gear giant is also a splashable boss monster for machines that searches out a great deal of monsters and puts a strain on what future machines will have to look like.
Gadgets Offering is not a fine deck, so no. I'm hitting part of the consistency as well. Gadgets themselves are consistent because of themselves. If you can't summon much, they can't be that powerful. I admit there are other cards to hit, and Fortress isn't honestly that bad either. But that only convinces me to hit more as well. Gadgets are getting off that easily. They're badly designed +1's. If they were special summon only to grab another, they could've been fine. Or if you could only use their effect once per turn.(each individual card) But they're not. They deserve their spot at 1.

So Gear Gigant X and Tinplate Goldfish to 1 as well? May just do that.

Additional Comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrodaniel View Post
Last Time I checked the Gadgets couldn't special summon themselves. they're all with low attack and the searching means nothing if they cant be put to use. the only time they were ever a problem, was when Ultimate Offering was a 3, and sometimes when it was at 2. You seem to just want to hit them because they replace themselves, but that isnt going to help them anymore without a method to summon them. I'd rather hit Machina Gearframe and/or Geargiaarmour, as at least they search monsters that can cause a threat by themselves.
No. They're overpowered and poorly designed messes. Ultimate Offering was a very fair design, and I'm still leaving it at 1 respectively.

Geargaiaarmor, perhaps, too. But UO isn't going to 0 any time soon here. That's why Chateau and Gadgets were pure to 1. To still allow fair use of that card, and stop the actual broken uses of it.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:51 AM   #13
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Oh man, limiting each Gadget is trollzier than semi-limiting them.

Terrible list.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:56 AM   #14
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Okay so to hit Gadgets you are hitting: Gear Giant to 1, Tin Plate to 1, Each Gadget to 1.

Is Gearframe and Fortress not a poorly designed plus 1? Gadget's search is only as good as what gets 2 of them on the field. What is so poor about summoning a 1400 atk monster and then having a 1200 one in the hand if it takes 2 turns before that can turn into anything bigger. Assuming your opponent doesn't have anyway to remove the first one from the field.

Gadgets haven't been a problem in recent history until Tinplate Goldfish and Gear Gigant X came into the fray.

Additional Comment:

Oh and what are the fair uses for Ultimate Offering that I'm missing? What is that? You mean that it's only used to spam the field to otk the opponent.

Additional Comment:

It is pretty difficult for machines to prosper if you neuter all their good archetypes.

Last edited by n1ghtmare90 : 11-18-2012 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n1ghtmare90 View Post
Okay so to hit Gadgets you are hitting: Gear Giant to 1, Tin Plate to 1, Each Gadget to 1.
I said maybe on Tinplate. I don't like its design. It wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't specifically a Machine here. That's where the problems come up.

Quote:
Is Gearframe and Fortress not a poorly designed plus 1? Gadget's search is only as good as what gets 2 of them on the field. What is so poor about summoning a 1400 atk monster and then having a 1200 one in the hand if it takes 2 turns before that can turn into anything bigger. Assuming your opponent doesn't have anyway to remove the first one from the field.
How about they get 1 turn to swarm for at best a Rank 4 or a Level 9 Synchro summon. And leave it at that. If they can keep getting plusses, it becomes a problem. Taking away their entire plus power is ideal since it actually succeeds in slowing down the game.

Gearframe is a regular specific searcher. I may hit it, but it's only if the Machina deck is an actual problem. And I agree with Gear Gigant X to 1 as well. Gearframe itself does not directly search a Gadget, in fact, it doesn't actually deserve a hit. Fortress is not as much of a problem as he appears to be. Decent boss, but other than being easy to summon, is beyond easily killable at no real cost. Overrated muchly here.

Quote:
Gadgets haven't been a problem in recent history until Tinplate Goldfish and Gear Gigant X came into the fray.
Limiting them stops them from being a problem ever again. They're not going above 1 on this list and are still poorly designed.

And they've been a problem recently without them as well. They were a problem many times.

Additional Comment:

Quote:
Oh and what are the fair uses for Ultimate Offering that I'm missing? What is that? You mean that it's only used to spam the field to otk the opponent.
How you doing that without constant easy resources? Oh, wait... you're not. No, it's used in regular decks for regular tribute summoning. In a non-broken way, and actual requires a cost and a good hand to even get a few monsters out. It's also very slow and isn't actually that consistent as is(for good reasons). It has never been an issue outside of decks that get +1 searching constantly. The only deck I haven't entirely neutered that could abuse it is arguably Blackwings, but... they still suck with it at 1. I may put MST back to 2 to make it harder to go off, but we'll see.

Quote:
It is pretty difficult for machines to prosper if you neuter all their good archetypes.
Gadgets were nothing but an overpowered archtype. They were never anything less. Geargaias are also not exactly balanced or "good" either.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:20 AM   #16
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Gadgets were nothing but an overpowered archtype. They were never anything less. Geargaias are also not exactly balanced or "good" either.
and yet they have done nothing major competitvely for quite a few years now as far as I'm aware. You're hitting things that have no reason to be hit apart from the fact that they search themselves, which honestly, is easily stopped with Thunder King Rai-Oh if you're that bothered about it. The Banlist is meant to only hit archetypes and cards that are a genuine problem. The max Gadgets have been is a engine for other machine decks, and honestly, is that aspect they have been completely replaced by Geargia.
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We're the Knights of the Round Table,
Our combos are formidable.
But in the regards, we're given cards
That are quite unplayable.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Gadgets were nothing but an overpowered archtype. They were never anything less. Geargaias are also not exactly balanced or "good" either.
Really Gadgets are overpowered? Why? Because of empty +1s? The materials are only as good as the monster that they summon. That monster will typically be a Gear Giant. Now why is Gear Giant so powerful? Is it its power to search a Gadget? No it is its power to search out a Gearframe. Why is this so good you may ask? Because Gearframe then gets to search out a boss monster who can them summon himself.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
IHow you doing that without constant easy resources? Oh, wait... you're not. No, it's used in regular decks for regular tribute summoning. In a non-broken way, and actual requires a cost and a good hand to even get a few monsters out. It's also very slow and isn't actually that consistent as is(for good reasons). It has never been an issue outside of decks that get +1 searching constantly. The only deck I haven't entirely neutered that could abuse it is arguably Blackwings, but... they still suck with it at 1. I may put MST back to 2 to make it harder to go off, but we'll see.
I'd like to see any deck in the history of Yugioh that used Ultimate Offering for tribute summoning. Oh wait there isn't one because it is way to slow to be worth a monarch or a LaDD. It is either used to spam the field or it is not used.

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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Limiting them stops them from being a problem ever again. They're not going
This is such a horrible way of thinking of it I don't even want to respond. Alas I will. With this line of thinking you may as well destroy all archetypes the second they reach any type prominence so they don't ever become a problem again. Why not just ban Shi en, Rescue Rabbit, Wind Up, Magician, DAD? I mean they won't be a problem so neutering the decks is easier then coming up with a way to keep them competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Gearframe is a regular specific searcher. I may hit it, but it's only if the Machina deck is an actual problem. And I agree with Gear Gigant X to 1 as well. Gearframe itself does not directly search a Gadget, in fact, it doesn't actually deserve a hit. Fortress is not as much of a problem as he appears to be. Decent boss, but other than being easy to summon, is beyond easily killable at no real cost. Overrated muchly here.

A Machina deck will never be a problem. Because they suck. What doesn't suck is an 1800 beater union monster that can protect any machine monster that searches a machine generic boss monster with a laughable special summoning condition who Gearframe can also search for if Fortress is already in the grave. Did I forget to mention who is also completely searchable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
How about they get 1 turn to swarm for at best a Rank 4 or a Level 9 Synchro summon. And leave it at that. If they can keep getting plusses, it becomes a problem. Taking away their entire plus power is ideal since it actually succeeds in slowing down the game.
How are they going to "swarm" for a rank 4 if they are a totally unplayable deck? You cant splash 1 of each gadget into a random deck with double summons and expect anything more than an inconsistent mess. Don't even try to pretend that Gadgets would be playable if they were at anything less than 2 each.

How does killing Gadgets slow down the game? Wouldn't killing the cards that allow the game to be an otk fest do a better job? Even with 3 gadgets they can't really pump out more than 1 Xyz a turn without the help of Ultimate Offering.

Imagine the Hand: Gadget, Gadget, Gadget, Tinplate Goldfish

What did all of those plusses do? Basically nothing. Now you have a Gadget clogged hand and nowhere for all the gadgets to go. Gadgets can't do anything if they don't have a summoner or if they can't survive a turn. They either get SS or they survive the turn with the help of some backrow.

The logical move would be to summon Tinplate
Tinplate>SS Gadget>get another Gadget>Xyz into Gear Giant>Get Gearframe
So thanks to the help of Tinplate you get one of your Gadgets onto the field and a Gearframe into the hand. Now what you get an attack and all that jazz but you have to wait until next turn to do anything more.

Next turn you have to decide upon getting another xyz or summoning Gearframe and summoning a Fortress. Where one would net you more options and the other otk power.

All of the meaningless plusses suddenly mean something. They become fuel for Fortress. You basically(assuming no banishing nonsense comes up) have 2 Fortress summonings here.

Without the spammablity given by Tinplate and the searchable power that is Gear Giant the Gadgets are useless.

Additional Comment:

I want so badly to liken my arguments to other decks but I know that it wouldn't prove anything.

1 more thing what are the other significant Gadget decks? I know of Offering Gadget of recent times and Oppression Gadgets, TragGadgets and the really old ones that mained 3 SIM, Banisher, and Hydrogedon. But are there another ones? Ir ones that ruled the meta and weren't just anti-meta? I'm genuinely curious. I love Yugioh history but it is pretty hard to find.

Last edited by n1ghtmare90 : 11-18-2012 at 02:00 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:10 AM   #18
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Hahahaha. Well that was a good laugh.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:52 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by n1ghtmare90 View Post
Really Gadgets are overpowered? Why? Because of empty +1s? The materials are only as good as the monster that they summon. That monster will typically be a Gear Giant. Now why is Gear Giant so powerful? Is it its power to search a Gadget? No it is its power to search out a Gearframe. Why is this so good you may ask? Because Gearframe then gets to search out a boss monster who can them summon himself.
Constant summonable materials are not empty. That's hilarious. If they had limitations, I could agree. They're similar to Stratos, but their only limitation is a specific Gadget, which is why they're at 1 each, so they're all usable once, which prevents any broken plays. And as I said, Fortress is actually not broken. Maybe overpowered. At best.

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I'd like to see any deck in the history of Yugioh that used Ultimate Offering for tribute summoning. Oh wait there isn't one because it is way to slow to be worth a monarch or a LaDD. It is either used to spam the field or it is not used.
I'll post my deck list later, and it's funny, because even a single tribute summon can screw up a powerful attack by your opponent. I remember winning against a far better deck. So I'm going by actual experience, where it isn't used to spam the field, but just to get a decent field to protect yourself. Kind of like one of its original purposes. And that's the point; It's slow. Which is not a broken way to do tribute summoning at all.

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This is such a horrible way of thinking of it I don't even want to respond. Alas I will. With this line of thinking you may as well destroy all archetypes the second they reach any type prominence so they don't ever become a problem again. Why not just ban Shi en, Rescue Rabbit, Wind Up, Magician, DAD? I mean they won't be a problem so neutering the decks is easier then coming up with a way to keep them competitive.
Shi-En is actually banworthy, but Gateway is moreso. DAD actually should be, although I'm waiting to see how far the Elemental Lords go, so that could be a while. Rescue Rabbit I'm leaving at 2, although I almost put it at 3, but I like that it's a lot less consistent now, and since Rabbit decks besides Dino-Rabbit are doing well, the

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A Machina deck will never be a problem. Because they suck. What doesn't suck is an 1800 beater union monster that can protect any machine monster that searches a machine generic boss monster with a laughable special summoning condition who Gearframe can also search for if Fortress is already in the grave. Did I forget to mention who is also completely searchable.
They only sucked because of Chimeratech Fortress Dragon. Who is banned. You've done one thing; convinced me to also hit Gearframe. Although Semi-Limit or Limit is a difficult one. I have a feeling without the broken CFD, a limit would probably be needed.

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How are they going to "swarm" for a rank 4 if they are a totally unplayable deck? You cant splash 1 of each gadget into a random deck with double summons and expect anything more than an inconsistent mess. Don't even try to pretend that Gadgets would be playable if they were at anything less than 2 each.
Who said I wanted them to be a playable deck? I wanted them to be as close to balanced as possible. Now they are.

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How does killing Gadgets slow down the game? Wouldn't killing the cards that allow the game to be an otk fest do a better job? Even with 3 gadgets they can't really pump out more than 1 Xyz a turn without the help of Ultimate Offering.
That's just one of many to hit.

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Imagine the Hand: Gadget, Gadget, Gadget, Tinplate Goldfish
Sounds fine to me.

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What did all of those plusses do? Basically nothing. Now you have a Gadget clogged hand and nowhere for all the gadgets to go. Gadgets can't do anything if they don't have a summoner or if they can't survive a turn. They either get SS or they survive the turn with the help of some backrow.
That sounds extremely healthy to me. That they can't regenerate their hand like other decks. I have zero issues with that.

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The logical move would be to summon Tinplate
Tinplate>SS Gadget>get another Gadget>Xyz into Gear Giant>Get Gearframe
So thanks to the help of Tinplate you get one of your Gadgets onto the field and a Gearframe into the hand. Now what you get an attack and all that jazz but you have to wait until next turn to do anything more.
And why is this a problem if you can't constantly regenerate another Gadgety hand?(if you will on the term) Outside of also Gearframe, who is a separate problem unrelated to Gadgets.

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Next turn you have to decide upon getting another xyz or summoning Gearframe and summoning a Fortress. Where one would net you more options and the other otk power.
And without tons of extra resources. Not seeing the problem here.

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All of the meaningless plusses suddenly mean something. They become fuel for Fortress. You basically(assuming no banishing nonsense comes up) have 2 Fortress summonings here.
...And? Other than them being good, this isn't actually a real problem. You know what would make them easy to summon? Tons of Gadgets in your hand. Guess what you don't have? Yeah.

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Without the spammablity given by Tinplate and the searchable power that is Gear Giant the Gadgets are useless.
They were useful before that, and they will continue to be. As long as they're above 1, they have spam power. It's better than hitting even more cards to "balance" them. All of that ties into their problems now.

Quote:
1 more thing what are the other significant Gadget decks? I know of Offering Gadget of recent times and Oppression Gadgets, TragGadgets and the really old ones that mained 3 SIM, Banisher, and Hydrogedon. But are there another ones? Ir ones that ruled the meta and weren't just anti-meta? I'm genuinely curious. I love Yugioh history but it is pretty hard to find.
Honestly, I only know of the first two. I do know they had a history of causing some issues. They're the only reason Ultimate Offering got hit up until the Madolche stuff.

Also, there's a lot of other stuff on my list. No need to fully concentrate on the Gadgets. To note, if anything, I'd either add some other cards, or just take them off the list with zero other changes. But then again, Madolche Chateau deserved the hit anyway(taking away its chances of activating).
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:07 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Hydronix View Post
Yes, I screwed up on the title last time. However, I will admit I know little about the Geargaia and Atlantean/Mermail stuff so I won't be putting them on the list. Suggestions are welcome.

Forbidden
Sangan - The main reason for this is to take out extremely generic searching. Some non-generic searchers are fine at 1 or more. The problem is this lacks any real weaknesses. It is not banned for TGU either. In fact, it has nothing to do with this card's banning, so don't argue it.

Sangan and Tour Guide are connected now though. When arguing one, you have to include the other. Sangan is ONLY used for decks now because of Tour Guide. I am sure you won't find a competitive deck now a days that uses Sangan without Tour Guide. I don't see this card being an issue to be banned as well.

Chimeratech Fortress Dragon - The point of this is to mainly allow Machines to still prosper without getting them or its opposers an instant advantage card. With the english release of Magnetic Bagworm, which kills Machines, we have a perfect fair counter that is defensive, and won't easily grab you a win at all.

A couple of issues with this....

1) Magnetic Bagworm is NOT a good counter to machines. It's cute and works decently well in casual, but never for competitive. System Down and Chimeratech are far superior and well... actually work.

2) Chimeratech isn't stopping Geargia variants from topping.... and it's fair to say that they are a top deck. If Geargia is to remain a top-threat, then shouldn't duelists have the ability to counter it?


T.G. Hyper Librarian - A ridiculous plusser that makes Synchro summons way too cheap and unfair. Without it, not even Lavals will do much. Or any Synchro Spam deck.

Besides Lavals, what uses this card? Let's make a hit to Rekindling instead of this. I don't see Librarian being an issue for the time being.

Leviair the Sea Dragon - This pretty much takes away the derp from Dino-Rabbit decks. With the latest Tins, Dino-Rabbit is going to explode as a deck, meaning this'll be even more powerful.

I highly doubt that banning a card that just was reprinted would be clever marketing to sell the tin; furthermore a tin with the only good promo being this card....

I thought it was established that Leviair is the issue but rather Rabbit itself.


Charge of the Light Brigade - This is a way too splashable searcher that has one major problem with it; It doesn't need to be in a pure Lightsworn deck. The free mill also does nothing but help people OTK or win as is with utter ease. To 0.

Exactly what has Charge been used in lately? Last I checked, Chaos Dragons topped once and Lightsworns are not an impressive deck. This can stay at one.

Gateway of the Six - This prevents the main Six Sam spam, as well as stops them from being too powerful.

Sure

Monster Reborn - I shouldn't need to explain this, but this needs to go. While I don't see it happening till ZeXal ends(and its advertisement gone), it doesn't need to be higher than 0 in Advanced.

Sure

Pot of Avarice - Stops the ridiculous amount of combos and filling your graveyard should not make for an easy plus.

I would like it to, but I don't think its time yet.

Solemn Judgment - I've heard it all before. The problem is, this is too versatile. Banning it will allow people to depend on cards that isn't usable at any time, and isn't always going to be perfect.

With the potential to play one-card game changers, I believe that Judgment is needed for now.


Limited
Dark Magician of Chaos - Without Monster Reborn, he's not a problem. He's not a problem in Prophecy either. He's slow, and leads to severely dead hands.

I would think it would be the opposite as he is searchable by many cards and could easily be dumped and revived.... I think it would be best to ban it.

Green Gadget - Free +1 that only leads to sacks.
Red Gadget - Free +1 that only leads to sacks.
Yellow Gadget - Specifically, much like the other two, this is to prevent their plusses from being a problem. At 1 each, they're not broken at all and mediocre.

I am putting these 3 all together to say this... Gadgets are not broken. At All. They are one of the most balanced deck-types out there. Seriously, they just add another. The issue with them is their compatibility with other cards, such as Machinas and Ultimate Offering. Worst hit on this list.


Laval Volcano Handmaiden - I've had enough of the easy graveyard milling. This stops it cold. Heh, puns.

This is not the issue with lavals. The issue lies in Rekindling.

Sinister Serpent - A useless +1 that only serves to make the meta more interesting, but wouldn't hurt it in any way.

Only at 1. And it isn't useless.... there is some neat things that can be done with it (and I am not talking about the old Lightning Vortex combos...

Tribe-Infecting Virus - Contrary to popular belief, it is not very good in Merlanteans, which means there's zero reason to keep it banned.

Pop a monster and a s/t for the cost of a discard? I am not seeing the reason why this isn't that good?

You also said you don't know anything about mermails.... so I am not going to trust you on this either.


Thousand-Eyes Restrict - Others whined about card. It's nice tech, but won't do anything of note regardless. It's "good", but that's it.

Basically we have another Brain Control in Instant Fusion that can be brought back with Kinka-Byo. Piper would get a huge boost from this... I would rather not see this back while Instant Fusion is still around.

Wind-Up Magician - At 1, this prevents the ridiculous spam.
Wind-Up Rat - No more constant plusses at all.

Only Rat or Magician, not both. I think Magician is the best hit.

Madolche Chateau -The hardest it is to get, the harder the deck is to spam monsters. Now it's too rare to an issue.

... No.

Mystical Space Typhoon - An overpowered card that is way too versatile. At 1, it can't do much of anything, and we have tons of fair replacements with actual weaknesses or "doesn't work as well". Twister, Breaker the Magical Warrior, Tornado, Dust Tornado, for starters.

Read my thread about MST going to 1 and then try again.

Semi-Limited
Molten Transmission Field - As I said earlier, easy milling is ridiculous.
Rekindling - Lessens the chance of using it, and with the other hits, Lavals won't be sacking much at all.

How about you just limit/semi-limit Rekindling and be done with it? Leave this and Maiden alone.

Unlimited
Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner - Without Charge, this can move up without any issues. JD is not hit since it may not do a thing. If the playtesting makes it too powerful, JD would go down to 2 or 1, respectively. But that's not for sure.

Or we could leave it be as this allows for some crazy milling combos with mutliple Garoth.

Shien's Smoke Signal - Without Gateway of the Six, there's no more derp they can do. A first turn Shi-En isn't scary as is. Multiples of them are scary enough to keep it limited, though.

If Gateway goes, sure.

Mind Crush - It's currently one of the few things we can use against searching powers, and Dark Worlds doesn't even use it anymore.

I suppose

Overall.... not one of the best lists I have seen. 3/10
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:14 AM   #21
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Sooo... lavals to tier 15, madolche to tier 2, Wind-Ups to eh 2. And...whats this about DMoC being dead in Prophecies?

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Reaper_of_Prophecy
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Temperance_of_Prophecy
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Grand_Spellbook_Tower

Something tells me he won't be dead, rather abuseable as hell. Costless D.D.R'ing that can help their archtype anyway? I'd prefer not.

Otherwise, waay too much hitting on Lavalvals, Rekindling to 0/1 will just about do it for their derp. Gadgets to 1? That sounds like more butthurt. Ultimate Offerings is what causes them to derp, ban that and they're weak replacable monsters at best
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:30 AM   #22
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I still finding the idea of Rekindling above 1 extremely horrible.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:47 AM   #23
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http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Reaper_of_Prophecy
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Temperance_of_Prophecy
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Grand_Spellbook_Tower

Something tells me he won't be dead, rather abuseable as hell. Costless D.D.R'ing that can help their archtype anyway? I'd prefer not.
you obviously havent tested DMOC in Prophecies at all. It looks broken on paper, but typically, it wouldnt be anywhere near as powerful as High Priestess, and the spell recycling typically only gets back a Spellbook at best, usually Secrets. It probably would be fine at 1 tbh, albeit the Exclusives(they'll probably get 1-2 more in Cosmo Blazar) could change that.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:58 AM   #24
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you obviously havent tested DMOC in Prophecies at all. It looks broken on paper, but typically, it wouldnt be anywhere near as powerful as High Priestess, and the spell recycling typically only gets back a Spellbook at best, usually Secrets. It probably would be fine at 1 tbh, albeit the Exclusives(they'll probably get 1-2 more in Cosmo Blazar) could change that.
So, summoning Reaper of Prophecy gets you a 2600 attacker, a 2800 attacker, a spell book from grave, and any spell from your grave at the cost of a summon? Let's not forget that the deck has access to Spellbook of Life, that one prophecy monster that just came out that searches High Priestess and a spellbook, and plenty of speed.

I would rather not to be quite honest.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:04 PM   #25
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Gah, please multiquote, Bleakdragon.

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Sangan and Tour Guide are connected now though. When arguing one, you have to include the other. Sangan is ONLY used for decks now because of Tour Guide. I am sure you won't find a competitive deck now a days that uses Sangan without Tour Guide. I don't see this card being an issue to be banned as well.
With or without Tour Guide, it's a cheap and powerful search. It has a very poor restriction. The same cannot be said for TGU, but that already is hit at 2 anyway, which is definitely needed one. Regardless, my reasons are unrelated to TGU, and will continue to be. I don't find that a good enough reason. It was banned before TGU existed, and should be banned regardless. It has way too wide of a search range. Almost every type or archtype has a searcher anyway by now.

Quote:
A couple of issues with this....

1) Magnetic Bagworm is NOT a good counter to machines. It's cute and works decently well in casual, but never for competitive. System Down and Chimeratech are far superior and well... actually work.

2) Chimeratech isn't stopping Geargia variants from topping.... and it's fair to say that they are a top deck. If Geargia is to remain a top-threat, then shouldn't duelists have the ability to counter it?
1) Magnetic Bagworm is perfectly balanced. And it works on your opponent's turn, which makes it a viable counter. CFD does not and is only used to gain massive offense advantage. A bit of defensive advantage is far weaker.

2) No, because we had much weaker but fairer counters already. Magnetic Bagworm, arguably System Down, Acid Rain, and I forgot what the last one was.

Quote:
Besides Lavals, what uses this card? Let's make a hit to Rekindling instead of this. I don't see Librarian being an issue for the time being.
Rekindling already got hit. This card being banned stops all the broken Synchro problems. It's the last one with a broken ability.(Formula Synchron is still at 1 for now, though. I may move it up, but I have yet to decide how to handle the Plant Engine. Preferrably leaving it at 2 Lonefire with everything else banned is my ideal spot, than Formula Synchron to 2 for testing)

Quote:
I highly doubt that banning a card that just was reprinted would be clever marketing to sell the tin; furthermore a tin with the only good promo being this card....

I thought it was established that Leviair is the issue but rather Rabbit itself.
Leviair is the main issue in Dino-Rabbit. Without it, the deck falls apart. It's Tier 2 without TGU, but far from unplayable. Dino-Rabbit was barely affected by the current list. And putting Rabbit at 1 does nothing. You can just add more Leviair or revive it via Xyz Reborn or use Xyz Regen(which is very useful in that kind of deck anyway, since it's Xyz heavy enough). While that is true, Spore got reprinted and banned, so I wouldn't doubt it. Rescue Rabbit is in the same tin as Leviair. Come again?

Quote:
Exactly what has Charge been used in lately? Last I checked, Chaos Dragons topped once and Lightsworns are not an impressive deck. This can stay at one.
It's been splashed in more than just that for stuff like Ryko. This is one of the few non-generic search cards that actually is banworthy.(so is Stratos, but it atleast has the excuse of making D-Heroes searchable outside of running multiple E-Hero cards. He's a special case)

Quote:
I would like it to, but I don't think its time yet.
This is ideal, and it's still too easily used, even with some of the hits I did. Even with the Wind-Up hits, they can use it easily. Albeit, I run this card too, but that means nothing, you know?

Quote:
With the potential to play one-card game changers, I believe that Judgment is needed for now.
Not really. We have 2 Warning, 3 TKRO, 3 Effect Veiler, and 3 Dark Bribe. We're covered for "counters". Entirely. It's used too easily right now. I don't like the fact that you can use it at any freakin' time.

Quote:
I would think it would be the opposite as he is searchable by many cards and could easily be dumped and revived.... I think it would be best to ban it.
The only way to revive it is Call Of The Haunted. Which is easily destroyed. What's it going to get back? Dark Hole kills it. Heavy Storm kills it. It's not good in Prophecies either. It's severely overrated, and it's only broken play is with Monster Reborn. It doesn't matter if you can revive it as is. It's not that good. If you can't get anything beneficial, it's meh.

Quote:
I am putting these 3 all together to say this... Gadgets are not broken. At All. They are one of the most balanced deck-types out there. Seriously, they just add another. The issue with them is their compatibility with other cards, such as Machinas and Ultimate Offering. Worst hit on this list.
The issue is their ability to constantly +1. They're getting the hit regardless and were never balanced at any time during the entire game. They weren't as "known". There's a difference. Ultimate Offering is not broken nor the issue.

Quote:
This is not the issue with lavals. The issue lies in Rekindling.
It's also an issue. Free graveyard milling is not a good thing at all. It was poorly designed. Without it, Rekindling is not an issue. And Rekindling got its hit.(I was thinking Limited, but Lavals aren't even THAT good anyway, so this is more than enough)

Quote:
Only at 1. And it isn't useless.... there is some neat things that can be done with it (and I am not talking about the old Lightning Vortex combos...)
Brionac is banned. It's not very good. At higher numbers, it's an issue though.

Quote:
Pop a monster and a s/t for the cost of a discard? I am not seeing the reason why this isn't that good?

You also said you don't know anything about mermails.... so I am not going to trust you on this either.
Because it's worse than Lightning Vortex most of the time. And also is just as easily defeated. And costs your normal summon. It's overrated.

And I'm talking about what to hit in Merlanteans specifically, not to avoid anything related to them.

Quote:
Basically we have another Brain Control in Instant Fusion that can be brought back with Kinka-Byo. Piper would get a huge boost from this... I would rather not see this back while Instant Fusion is still around.
Overexaggeration. It's not that good at all. Kinka-Byo also banishes TER right away. Which is the main reason why it's not more than a decent combo. That combo is not broken either. At all. At 1, it's meh. At best, a Call Of The Haunted hit may be in order, but there's other reasons for it.

Quote:
Only Rat or Magician, not both. I think Magician is the best hit.
Eh, both need to be hit. Both constantly cause trouble and spam. I never liked either. At worst, I may unlimit Zenmaity, but that's it.

Quote:
... No.
Yes. Unless you can give a legitimate reason for such an overpowered card to be above 1. 1 is the nicest I can do without killing the deck's resource system.(which is already overpowered as is)

Quote:
Read my thread about MST going to 1 and then try again.
Everything is covered with other balanced spell/trap hate. So... no. It's staying at 1 where it should be right now.

Quote:
How about you just limit/semi-limit Rekindling and be done with it? Leave this and Maiden alone.
They're all problems and all deserve a hit. Which is what happened. Easily filling up your graveyard isn't balanced in any possible way. I was being nice and didn't limit them all.

Quote:
Or we could leave it be as this allows for some crazy milling combos with mutliple Garoth.
Sounds a bit too random. Surprised nobody asked for a hit to JD along with it. XD But this is specifically with Charge banned, so you do mean under the condition it is, correct?
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