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Old 09-17-2012, 08:18 PM   #1
natantantan
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Default Was he cheating?

I was once dueling a a guy. After he shuffled his deck he would put it on my mat for me to cut it. I would just do a pick up and place the bottom on top cut. He would pick up his cards to straighten them and quickly glance at the bottom before setting them in his deck zone. He did this every time his deck had to get shuffled (like 4-5 times per duel). Is this considered cheating? if so how could i stop it? it would just be my word against his.

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Old 09-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by natantantan View Post
I was once dueling a a guy. After he shuffled his deck he would put it on my mat for me to cut it. I would just do a pick up and place the bottom on top cut. He would pick up his cards to straighten them and quickly glance at the bottom before setting them in his deck zone. He did this every time his deck had to get shuffled (like 4-5 times per duel). Is this considered cheating? if so how could i stop it? it would just be my word against his.
Its kinda cheating. Gaining any info that a player isn't supposed to know is technically cheating. I'd tell him to knock it off and then if he still does it, I'd call a judge. And if the judge doesn't believe you, shuffle the deck for him whenever he does it and have the judge watch to make sure he isn't cheating.
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:50 PM   #3
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Purposely looking at, and having knowledge about anything that you're not supposed to know, is cheating. Call him on it, and call a judge if he keeps it up.
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:16 PM   #4
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Let's give this thread a few more minutes, Mana.
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:26 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by natantantan View Post
I was once dueling a a guy. After he shuffled his deck he would put it on my mat for me to cut it. I would just do a pick up and place the bottom on top cut. He would pick up his cards to straighten them and quickly glance at the bottom before setting them in his deck zone. He did this every time his deck had to get shuffled (like 4-5 times per duel). Is this considered cheating? if so how could i stop it? it would just be my word against his.
If he's doing it on multiple occasions and the actions are ostensible it is cheating, so call a judge to investigate.
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:26 PM   #6
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Let's give this thread a few more minutes, Mana.
Do you think the given answer is insufficient or is the lock just not needed?
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:30 PM   #7
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Do you think the given answer is insufficient or is the lock just not needed?
Reopened by request. I don't have time to answer myself.
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:01 PM   #8
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I think the important thing to do here is review what defines cheating before answering the question. In order for the infraction to be Unsporting Conduct-Cheating (Disqualification) 2 and sometimes 3 things need to be in true:

1. It was intentional
2. An attempt to gain an unfair advantage
3. Knowledge it was illegal (Sometimes)

Comments:
1. Someone can perform an illegal action and it not be intentional obviously. All too often on the forums when someone sees an illegal action they call it cheating automatically, that's not necessarily true, if the action wasn't intentional, then it's not UC-Cheating.
2. Something can be intentional but if it wasn't done to gain an unfair advantage, it's not UC-Cheating. In the scenario outlined it's important to consider this especially. Some people have the habit of looking at the bottom card of their deck in order to determine which way the deck is facing, it's obviously a very POOR habit and leads people to believe that the player is trying to gain an unfair advantage, however, the HJ needs to determine whether it player's intent to gain an unfair advantage, or the intent was to place their deck in a preferred direction. Some players start out when they first start playing doing this and it becomes habit, they don't even think twice about it.
3. While it's true that players are responsible for reading and understanding the rules and policies of the game, if a player doesn't know their intentional act is illegal, it's also then difficult to label it as an ATTEMPT to gain an unfair advantage.

Sometimes knowledge the action is illegal and sometimes it's not. If a very inexperienced player sits down and is asked, "How many cards in your deck?" and the young player thinks he'll misdirect his opponent and answers, "100!" The judge is called over. The player has intentionally misrepresented the game state in order to gain an unfair advantage, however, they had no knowledge their actions were illegal. Few if any HJ I know is going to issue a disqualification in that scenario.

I've had a scenario at a SJC where I've overheard a player offering another a bribe. As I spoke to the player about it and investigated it, the player was surprisingly agreeable to everything I stated agreeing that he indeed offered his opponent a bribe, agreed to the amount I heard, and it didn't bother him at all. The player wasn't nervous or shaken, didn't deny anything and didn't have any clue he was in trouble. Talking to the player more I learned where he played and he said that players do it all the time where he plays. Further investigation by the HJ convinced that HJ that the player seriously had no clue that bribery was illegal, never the less, the Unsporting Conduct-Cheating disqualification was issued.

With the above in mind, when determining if the infraction is UC-Cheating, use those three items as a check list. Keep in mind that there doesn't need to be "Proof" that a player us guilty of UC-Cheating in order for the infraction to be applied, the HJ simply needs to be convinced the actions fit the criteria. The HJ serves as investigator, jury, and judge. No HJ should take this lightly as a disqualification put the player's reputation, peer standing, ability to finish the event, and there may be additional action taken by KDE after reviewing the disqualification paperwork.

Additional Comment:

My advice to the OP is to call a judge, motion them down to you and quietly let them know that your opponent has viewed the bottom card of their deck after the shuffle / cut. Let the judge decide the course of action after that. They may have the player reshuffle the deck, they also might observe the player from a distance without the player's knowledge to see if the player does so again and make a better determination of that player's intentions before addressing the problem. If the judge elects not to address the problem immediately and the player in question inquires what the conversation was about to the judge or player in discussion, either can just respond, "It was a personal matter."

Last edited by John Danker : 09-19-2012 at 03:02 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:02 PM   #9
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While it seems minor, you'd probably be pretty pissed if he did that and then activates Convulsion of Nature at some point.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:30 PM   #10
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The guy could have been like me, in that I like my deck to always face the right way and he was checking it. People are OCD like that. I've been asked about it a few times and would just tell the player that I like the cards to be the right way.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:31 PM   #11
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The guy could have been like me, in that I like my deck to always face the right way and he was checking it. People are OCD like that. I've been asked about it a few times and would just tell the player that I like the cards to be the right way.
I'm this way as well, but at a big event, whether intentional or not, you're gaining an unfair advantage over your opponent by doing so. If it's a local, it's not a big deal, IMO... but at an actual event, it's just easier to keep the deck on the table, and make a change after a card is drawn.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:05 AM   #12
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Idk why people can think that's a good reason to look at the bottom card. You can easily just feel the edge of either end of the deckto determine te preferred way the cards face
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:18 AM   #13
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it is cheating, but it's something I do out of habit. I never mean to do it when I do, but I just get a bit ocd if the cards are upside-down, and without thinking, I often check to see if they're the right way.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:32 AM   #14
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it is cheating, but it's something I do out of habit. I never mean to do it when I do, but I just get a bit ocd if the cards are upside-down, and without thinking, I often check to see if they're the right way.
I think you missed a major point in my post. If the intention isn't to gain an unfair advantage, it isn't cheating.
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:51 AM   #15
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I think you missed a major point in my post. If the intention isn't to gain an unfair advantage, it isn't cheating.
It is because whether intentional or not, it still gives an unfair advantage if the deck is not shuffled thereafter.
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:00 AM   #16
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It is because whether intentional or not, it still gives an unfair advantage if the deck is not shuffled thereafter.
again, please refer to penalty guidelines provided by KDE and mr danker previous post.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:53 AM   #17
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It is because whether intentional or not, it still gives an unfair advantage if the deck is not shuffled thereafter.
The very reason that any Unsporting Conduct penalty carries a more harsh penalty is based on intent. If the action wasn't intentional, it can't be Unsporting Conduct by definition. Actions that are not intended to gain an unfair advantage and / or that are not intentional, fall under other groups of infractions such as Procedural Errors, Marked Cards, Tardiness, Slow Play, Deck Error, Drawing Extra Cards, all of which are considered to be unintentional.
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