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Old 09-06-2012, 04:57 PM   #1
LeonD
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Default Vraska the Unseen (RTR)

Ok. So I've been keeping up on the gossip page for Return to Ravnica. Mainly, because old school Rav was the height of when I last played. Leaks have started and hole crap this is looking to be an awesome format.

Three color control decks are definitely coming back. For the first card to start discussion I couldn't pick a better one then this.

Vraska the Unseen
3BG
Planeswalker - Vraska
5 Loyalty
+1 Vraska gains deathtouch (paraphrased by me)
-3 Destroy target nonland permanent
-7 Put 3 1/1 black assassin creature tokens onto the field with "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game."

Wow. Just wow. I'll start with just the opening stats. 5 cmc for...5 base loyalty!!! Have you seen ANY other walker with that efficiency? No! walkers loyalties have always been lower then cmc. First wow.

Now +1. Go to the spoiler and read the full text if you need to, but my paraphrase was simple enough. So, the same turn you case it it can have 6 loyalty.

"Crap! The ultimate only costs 7. What do I do?"

Well, usually summoning a walker gives up a turn of tempo which can allow attackers to break through and take down the walker. That's why walkers...usually...need protection. But this +1...

If they swing...they wont kill it, first of all. 6 loyalty is too much for any one creature to take down. 2 at the minimum. But they would lose the creature. To outright kill her, they'd need to lose 2 creatures at least. 2 free kills for the cost of 5 mana. At the very worst case scenario, its still advantageous to you. wowowow.

Now the -3. Kinda a watered-down Karn here. Bad? Hell no. Spot removal on gameenders seems fun to me. Enchantments and noncreature artifacts are the hardest things to kill. Impossible in mono-B. Could save you big time. Wowz.

Finally...god. Be grateful, GRATEFUL, that proliferate is rotating out. Only 7. Starts at 5. Only two more turns. So I'm running black - the color of creature kill 101 - and green - the color of Rancor....

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW

Just make sure he has only two creatures or you have green schenanigans and you straight up win by turn 8.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:23 PM   #2
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She's a nice casual walker: good flavor, synergy with it's colors, and fantastic art to boot. I like it!
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:00 PM   #3
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5 Loyalty for 5 mana is good. B/G is good because it covers all permanent removal types. G/B has the mana accel.

The first ability is good and with Blocking, you can pretty much determine who to allow through for her to kill if they attack her.

Her second ability is good extra spot on removal and she can knock off another Planeswalker right off the bat. With some bounce or instant Flicker effect, you could Remove her from the field then get her back out to use the second ability again.

The third ability is brutal in both single and multiplayer. Couple with Black and Green ability to get around blockers, then makes them easy to get their hit in.

She is so broke with Doubling Season out. 10 Loyalty, use the -7 ability right off the bat.
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Old 09-09-2012, 05:59 PM   #4
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Vraska is an amazing planeswalker yet I would play 1 or 2 copies maximum. That's my opinion.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:35 AM   #5
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Control wants her for her -3, otherwise her +1 is just self protection.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:19 PM   #6
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Wow. Just wow. I'll start with just the opening stats. 5 cmc for...5 base loyalty!!! Have you seen ANY other walker with that efficiency? No! walkers loyalties have always been lower then cmc.
This just isn't true, I'd provide examples but all you really have to do is search walkers in gatherer to see that you are wrong with multiple walkers.

She's okay, her -3 is really strong which makes it hard to argue that she won't see play. Her +1 interests me because as a rule a playable walker almost always can protect itself (original jace is the exception) and I wonder if this will be enough to count. (Doubt it matters, the -3 is good enough that she'll be playable)

Her ult is meh compared to alot of walker ults. I rather just sit of her and Vindicate every 4 turns if I'm already that far ahead. Giving up that advantage for a easy to disrupt way to win the game just isn't worth it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:47 AM   #7
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I think some of you guys are underestimating this card. Or maybe you're just underestimating how easy it is to cheap shot a guy through.

How's this fun card (which I'm actually starting a new thread to address): Blustersquall...

Imagine a multiplayer game. You early game...say, t1 Arbor Elf, t2 Farseek into BG shockland, into either another Arbor Elf, or anything...or nothing I guess. Just that should get you the T3 Planeswalker Drop. No one will want to lose their creatures this early. Quite the opposite: They want blockers and mana setup.

So you...say t4 Ranger's Path into two more shocklands (one of them UG), and maybe drop more blockers or hang back for control cards (now at 7 loyalty). T5 crack the ultimate and play whatever else, just leave 4 mana open. End of all the opponent's turns play Blustersquall with Overload cost. Now you lose...you lose...and you lose. Game done by T6.

Really study this setup here. Cause while it seems unlikely the mana fixing with reprinted shocks is just perfect. ALL of your lands can be forests. Green Ramp base. Multicolor control. Control's big cool win condition: this card.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:08 AM   #8
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Pulled this at the pre release (though I pulled it after the tournament so didn't get to use it). It's a nice card but I think it's pre ordering waaaay too high. I wouldn't take it lightly if someone busted it out on me. That ultimate is scary.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:15 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by LeonD View Post
I think some of you guys are underestimating this card. Or maybe you're just underestimating how easy it is to cheap shot a guy through.

How's this fun card (which I'm actually starting a new thread to address): Blustersquall...

Imagine a multiplayer game. You early game...say, t1 Arbor Elf, t2 Farseek into BG shockland, into either another Arbor Elf, or anything...or nothing I guess. Just that should get you the T3 Planeswalker Drop. No one will want to lose their creatures this early. Quite the opposite: They want blockers and mana setup.

So you...say t4 Ranger's Path into two more shocklands (one of them UG), and maybe drop more blockers or hang back for control cards (now at 7 loyalty). T5 crack the ultimate and play whatever else, just leave 4 mana open. End of all the opponent's turns play Blustersquall with Overload cost. Now you lose...you lose...and you lose. Game done by T6.

Really study this setup here. Cause while it seems unlikely the mana fixing with reprinted shocks is just perfect. ALL of your lands can be forests. Green Ramp base. Multicolor control. Control's big cool win condition: this card.
you then realized you wasted your whole hand and multiple turns to any sweeper. Oh and if the opponent is so ******ed to let you have a walker sit in play for 4 turns and NOT have a sweeper then they deserve to lose.

Only 1 planewalker was playable because of their ult and that was garruck wildspeaker and that was because you could use it the turn after he come into play making him discount Overrun. Vraska needs to sit in play and not really do anything for 4 turns before she ults.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:04 PM   #10
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Dreadbore.

Bye Vraska
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:34 PM   #11
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Drop a Faith's Shield to call pro black or pro green. since her ability is a green/black thing swing and there you got. she can't destroy your guy since you have pro of her ability and you get to do damage. That or just throw a ton of tokens at her.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:50 PM   #12
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Toshiro: Math helps.

First turn: Play her. Use the +1. Its at 6.
Second turn: Use +1. Its at 7. Use ramp creatures to block if you need to. If not, their creature will DIE and they'll have to start over with another.
Third turn: Ultimate.

Thats three licks to the center of the tootsie pop. Two opponent's attack phases to worry about.

How many board wipes in standard? C'mon. Tell me. I know that UW has one here. I'm pretty sure W got one with M13...what else? B lost their good one. R has fringe play ones. Every deck in standard really gonna have enough to reliably have them in 3 turns (ill give the opponent one more since the tokens will have to wait to attack)?

And stop with the faulty argument that something isn't good cause it dies...to another really good card...specifically designed to take i out.

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Old 10-08-2012, 01:19 PM   #13
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Toshiro: Math helps.

First turn: Play her. Use the +1. Its at 6.
Second turn: Use +1. Its at 7. Use ramp creatures to block if you need to. If not, their creature will DIE and they'll have to start over with another.
Third turn: Ultimate.

Thats three licks to the center of the tootsie pop. Two opponent's attack phases to worry about.

How many board wipes in standard? C'mon. Tell me. I know that UW has one here. I'm pretty sure W got one with M13...what else? B lost their good one. R has fringe play ones. Every deck in standard really gonna have enough to reliably have them in 3 turns (ill give the opponent one more since the tokens will have to wait to attack)?

And stop with the faulty argument that something isn't good cause it dies...to another really good card...specifically designed to take i out.
I'm sorry but I hardly see myself using vraska's ult. The amount of sweepers able to take down those tokens is ridiculous:

Golgari charm
Terminus
Cyclonic rift
Mizzium mortars
Bonfire of the dammed
Mutilate
Sever the Bloodline
Devastation Tide

I only use vraska for her second ability and any good player would agree with me, her second ability is literally her job in the metagame. Do +1s then -3s that's it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:32 PM   #14
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We never said she wasnt good. We are merely saying she isn't the best PW, and any reasonable player will not play her JUST for her ultimate.


And it's not a faulty argument. UW has detain, which can target her and make her useless for a turn. Red can just burn her away or at least keep her at bay. Like others have said, just throw a ton of tokens at her.


Not to mention we still have counters floating around.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:08 AM   #15
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Toshiro: Math helps.

First turn: Play her. Use the +1. Its at 6.
Second turn: Use +1. Its at 7. Use ramp creatures to block if you need to. If not, their creature will DIE and they'll have to start over with another.
Third turn: Ultimate.

Thats three licks to the center of the tootsie pop. Two opponent's attack phases to worry about.

How many board wipes in standard? C'mon. Tell me. I know that UW has one here. I'm pretty sure W got one with M13...what else? B lost their good one. R has fringe play ones. Every deck in standard really gonna have enough to reliably have them in 3 turns (ill give the opponent one more since the tokens will have to wait to attack)?

And stop with the faulty argument that something isn't good cause it dies...to another really good card...specifically designed to take i out.

Then after three turns you will win if you have able to swing and get a token to hit; on the FOURTH turn.

She doesn't get a payout this way until 4 turns, 3 of which need her in play and untouched, and the last you have to make without losing your dudes.

As for who runs sweepers? American and Bant control runs sweepers, jund control and midrange has bonfire, hell even zombie decks have golgari charm from the sb. The meta has alot of sweepers.

Sorry if your intended use for vraska is for her ult and not as a pricier Vindicate with some upsides you are a bad player. I don't say that often but yes legitimately you are bad at magic if that is your intent on how to play vraska competitively.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:55 AM   #16
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I'm sorry but the argument that you're bad if you intend to use Vraska's ultimate in competitive play doesn't hold weight and furthermore is downright arrogant and ignorant to be honest.

It's not impossible to get out the tokens and then swing with them. Obviously it's going to be hard to get her ultimate off and then swing with tokens but it can be done. If you can get her out, keep her covered long enough to get the tokens out and then swing with them than you had to do something right. If you choose to use her for her -3 that's your choice, if you use her for her ultimate, that's also your choice and has no bearing on one's ability to play the game. I've yet to see a deck that couldn't give her some kind of trouble. Obviously her -3 is a good ability and something that will see alot of use. However saying that "you're bad if you don't use this card like me," is a baseless argument that does nothing but prove your own desperation. If you have the right deck it can be done just as alot of other shenanigans in this game can be done.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:43 AM   #17
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Toshi is still right though, I mean only reason I see to go for her ult is if you think you can win with it, otherwise she is a better control enabler.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:35 PM   #18
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That isn't exactly what I said, I said the reason to add her to a deck and play her if because she is a pricier Vindicate with upsides. If you are constructing scenarios to run her because of her ultimate that is fine but stick to casual. You are missvaluing her if you are looking at her ultimate.
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I'm sorry but the argument that you're bad if you intend to use Vraska's ultimate in competitive play doesn't hold weight and furthermore is downright arrogant and ignorant to be honest.

It's not impossible to get out the tokens and then swing with them. Obviously it's going to be hard to get her ultimate off and then swing with tokens but it can be done. If you can get her out, keep her covered long enough to get the tokens out and then swing with them than you had to do something right. If you choose to use her for her -3 that's your choice, if you use her for her ultimate, that's also your choice and has no bearing on one's ability to play the game. I've yet to see a deck that couldn't give her some kind of trouble. Obviously her -3 is a good ability and something that will see alot of use. However saying that "you're bad if you don't use this card like me," is a baseless argument that does nothing but prove your own desperation. If you have the right deck it can be done just as alot of other shenanigans in this game can be done.

.
Oh and its a baseless arguement if it doesn't have a base, I explained why playing her for her ultimate is bad
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:56 PM   #19
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I will say in situations a walkers ults, they can matter, but it needs to be easy to get to or inevitable like Elspeth with nothing but pluses, finishes a lock down, jace tmc. Low cost, Garruk or Koth. Or be free, Gideon.

Does her ult say gg or put your opponent, no it is easy to handle. Heck even the new jace's ult not worth it because, unless they have a gg card, it's not worth the wait.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:41 AM   #20
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Toshi is still right though, I mean only reason I see to go for her ult is if you think you can win with it, otherwise she is a better control enabler.
I get what he's saying about it not being worth it that much to go for her ultimate. What I don't agree with is you're dumb for trying to build a deck around her ultimate. It's going to be a more difficult build but it can be done.


Quote:
That isn't exactly what I said, I said the reason to add her to a deck and play her if because she is a pricier Vindicate with upsides. If you are constructing scenarios to run her because of her ultimate that is fine but stick to casual. You are missvaluing her if you are looking at her ultimate.
Quote:
Oh and its a baseless arguement if it doesn't have a base, I explained why playing her for her ultimate is bad
I get what you're saying that she's better used as a Vindicate and for her middle effect. What you're wrong about is that you're a bad player for trying to go for her ultimate as a main win condition. You said and I quote,

Quote:
Sorry if your intended use for vraska is for her ult and not as a pricier Vindicate with some upsides you are a bad player. I don't say that often but yes legitimately you are bad at magic if that is your intent on how to play vraska competitively.
That's the baseless argument I was referring to. Simply because someone disagrees with you has no bearing on their intelligence or ability to play the game. The arguments you made in terms of her payout I completely agree are valid arguments and concerns. You implied that unless they're running her for the middle ability they're a bad player and said that if they play it for her ultimate they're a bad player and in fact said it twice. Any card given the right conditions can be good. There is no base for an argument someone is bad because they play something differently than you and is what I was referring to.

As I said above it's a more difficult build to make a deck around her ultimate but not impossible. You raised some legit concerns to using her ultimate which need to be considered. The part where you criticized people who play her for her ultimate however is not something that needs to be considered.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:06 AM   #21
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building a deck around vraska ultimate: sure casual go for it

Building a deck and using vraska in it as a Vindicate in competitive standard- sure go for it.

Arguing her viability BECAUSE SOLELY due to her ultimate (this was what LeonD did and the conversation you responded to) and constructing a dream scenario that still looks bad on paper for why you should play her competitively: you are a bad player, think a bit about how to evaluate and build decks before taking anything but a netdeck to a competitive event.

This is my argument. I like vraska, she is decent, but people made a poor argument for her viability that I responded to and finally decided to make the bad player statement. I stand by it, if you are so poor at valuing cards in a competitive setting that you look at vraska and think "Wow, her ult is something I need to base my whole deck around because it will win me the game if the opponent refuses to interact with me for 4 turns!" You need to reevaluate how you play this game if you want to be COMPETITIVE player.

I have no problem with people building casual decks, I build casual decks all the time. I do have problems with people using poor arguments and faulty logic in trying to create a defense of competitive viability of a card.

(CAP some key words because you seemed to miss them when you read my posts)
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:34 PM   #22
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k. maybe i misinterpreted my intention of the use of this card...

The ult is great. I think its innovative and fun for people who want to try new things. All three abilities should be used...during their best times.

Geez, I swear I'm not a bad player, even though you seem to think so strongly. The +1 self-protects. Vindicate paves the way for any threat you care about from stopping board control...you should, and I would always want you to, use the second ability to save yourself in appropriate situations.

Toshiro: Saying, however, that noone in this meta using Vraska will ever find uses for the ultimate is just plain dumb. Wouldn't you like something like that after, say, dropping a board sweeper of your own? Or maybe against an annoying amount of lifegain. I dunno, man. But there are uses. Tons.

Vindicate when necesarry. Use the ultimate when you know you can win. Why you thought I always thought every scenario should play out like the dream scenario is beyond me. All three abilities are great. Ideally, the first two actually play into each other really well..

First ability stops single creatures not big enough to take it down in one swing. Second stops creatures that are as well as any enchantment or other weird threats.

And even after saying all that...I don't feel better. Cause you're an ass dude. Seriously.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:52 AM   #23
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You need to reevaluate how you play this game if you want to be COMPETITIVE player.

I have no problem with people building casual decks, I build casual decks all the time.
You see, in order to be competitive, they need to be able to build a decent deck on their own, which requires card evaluation skills. If those are lacking, everything else falls flat on its face. The way you build or the way I build (if I can be so bold to say) are quite different from how the OMG crowd does. Sure they'll say "of course you use however the situation dictates," but the mere fact that they're talking about her ultimate with such zeal shows that they can't properly evaluate the expected usage of Vraska's abilities.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:24 AM   #24
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And even after saying all that...I don't feel better. Cause you're an ass dude. Seriously.
Sorry you think that way but from your response you clearly STILL don't understand my argument. I don't know how to be clearer, so forget it whatever. I explained how the card works in a competitive environment.

I'm not even angry or frustrated or trying to be a jerk. I just at this point can't at a fundamental level explain myself any further. I'm sorry you interpreted that as me being an ass. I said her ult was a 4 turn investment that required 0 opponent interaction. You said I was wrong. I explained that no I was right and a 4 turn investment for a chance to win the game that loses to any burn, sweeper, blockers, aggro, etc is a poor reason to play a card competitively. I said that if that was the reason you are running her in a standard deck you need to reevaluate how you play the game IF your intent is to be competitive.

Then someone else chimes in arguing that the agruement I made was invalid based on some altruistic point that I can't say someone is bad for evaluating something very very poorly and that all my points are invalid because at some point out of some insane scenario the ult will be the right course of action.

I just...can't...understand....you...people. I've made my arguement for the card, your counter is nitpicking. I guess I shouldn't expect more from the internet but its a disappointment for me who was trying to explain something.
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Last edited by Toshiro Umezete : 10-12-2012 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:35 AM   #25
PresidentShinra
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The + and - are where it's at with Vraska. Not so much the ultimate; even in sealed, really.

I mean, I could see a more casual deck built FOR Vraska using the new land where you can (4), tap. Target creature is unblockable this turn. Good luck surviving until then though.

@ Toshiro Re: Lack of understanding
Welcome to the interwebz. (read interwebz=Pojo.) Sometimes it's just hard to have a heated debate from behind a screen.
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