Wind-Ups & Wind-Up Hunter

[politiciansplague]

Originally Posted by Serotonin

Oh in that case.


Effect Veiler.

Smart wind-up players can play around veiler with extreme ease. And it only takes one Book of Moon or Monster Reborn to just keep the loop going after veiler.

[TeslaMouse]

Counters do not make a card less broken.

[gigan45]

Imo, ban hunter, rat at 3, zenmaity to 2. Totally removes any turn 1 hand disruption, deck is still very playable, and its harder to otk without the extra zenmaity

[politiciansplague]

Originally Posted by gigan45

Imo, ban hunter, rat at 3, zenmaity to 2. Totally removes any turn 1 hand disruption, deck is still very playable, and its harder to otk without the extra zenmaity

Ideally this is what would happen (that's the way I made it in my yugioh wishlist) , but I doubt this is the case because I can really only see 1 hit to wind-ups and since zenmaity to 2 doesn't stop the loop, hunter is what's going to go.

[matthewmilad]

Originally Posted by politiciansplague

Totally terrified of an inconsistent otk that falls apart so quickly and easily it's ridiculous.

Considering the fact that they all come out of the Extra deck and do not have to be played when it is not guaranteed for it to go through... yes. Shouldn't exist.

[UberDueler]

Originally Posted by gigan45

Imo, ban hunter, rat at 3, zenmaity to 2. Totally removes any turn 1 hand disruption, deck is still very playable, and its harder to otk without the extra zenmaity

Hitting 2 Wind-up cards is a bad idea and all it proves is that banning Hunter does not solve the Wind-up problem as a whole.

[DBZ-Gohan]

Originally Posted by UberDueler

Hitting 2 Wind-up cards is a bad idea and all it proves is that banning Hunter does not solve the Wind-up problem as a whole.

That just suggests the deck must either die competitively or allowed to run at full power. o.O

[Master_Kowoyoshi]

So out right kill a special summing deck while leaving the card card that creates a handloop and the reason the deck should be hit ?

oh pojo you.

[gigan45]

Originally Posted by UberDueler

Hitting 2 Wind-up cards is a bad idea and all it proves is that banning Hunter does not solve the Wind-up problem as a whole.

The wind-up problem is hunter. Unless you want to ban rat or zenmaity, people will still find ways (albeit sacky ways) to loop 2-4 cards from your hand with magician and shark. Banning rat or zenmaity is dumb since either is perfectly balanced on its own. Hunter is the best ban and one of the other 2 should be touched a bit so people don't complain about situational otks

[Gaspar]

Guyz, it does not matter if you can haz a 2-card OTK!1! BECAUSE YOU MUST HAZ HAND-TRAPS!1!11!!!
Sheesh...
Rat is a 1-card Xyz into Zenmaity and other stuff. It does not self-interact... directly.
Zenmaity is a Wind-Up summon from the hand or deck. Including Rat. Which you can use since it can be summoned in attack position.
So, Rat does self-interact at the end.

[nukm4]

Originally Posted by Master_Kowoyoshi

So out right kill a special summing deck while leaving the card card that creates a handloop and the reason the deck should be hit ?

oh pojo you.

No single card creates the loop; it's an INTERACTION of THREE cards. And two of those cards can be broken in the absence of the third, as such hitting Hunter is to completely ignore the true root of the problem.

[Saifullah]

The real problem is Rat. Carrier is the tool that Rat uses in order to derp the field up. Sure, Magician + Shark or TGU gets you a Carrier, but what continues the play? Rat. Even without Hunter the deck can put 8000+ on the board using 2 cards.


Ban Rat. If you want you can semi-limit Carrier as well.

[Chuske]

Lol I dont think people know how underwhelming a board if with 1.5k monsters. Zenmaighty aint a problem with hunter banend

[PlanetCrack]

Originally Posted by Serotonin

It wouldn't matter if they had Maxx C because if I am comboing with out Hunter I am just going to attack them for game.

Yes it does because if you combo on an emtpy field while the opponent maxx c's, you're just playing suicide bomb.dek because you're risking gorz.

In a non-maxx c situation, if you get Gorzed, you might be OK. But giving your opponent that much advantage means that unless you win this turn, you're going to lose on your next. Not exactly ideal for a 9+ round tournament.

[Hasan11]

if opponent overextends first/second turn > Dark Hole, Mirror Force, Torrential Tribute, warning, etc.

If opponent hand loops you first /second turn : pray he screws up cause he's a bad player, or have veiler/maxx C

having outs to something does not justify it staying off the list. However, having next to no counters PERIOD for a potential win condition is obviously a problem. Ban hunter, it's that easy.

[Gaspar]

And what if you do not have counters for the OTK either?
Hand Traps should be (for lack of better words) a luxury. They should NOT be a necessity.

[Master_Kowoyoshi]

Originally Posted by Hasan11

if opponent overextends first/second turn > Dark Hole, Mirror Force, Torrential Tribute, warning, etc.

If opponent hand loops you first /second turn : pray he screws up cause he's a bad player, or have veiler/maxx C

having outs to something does not justify it staying off the list. However, having next to no counters PERIOD for a potential win condition is obviously a problem. Ban hunter, it's that easy.

Actually pray you have a max-c, cause a good number of times, I have seen wind up players open with Dimensional Fissure, I have gone tourneys and had the
lovely experience of having my hand full of monsters, removed from play in front my very eyes. not only that but if you have neither max-c or veiler in hand, you die simple as that.

[Serotonin]

Originally Posted by PlanetCrack

Yes it does because if you combo on an emtpy field while the opponent maxx c's, you're just playing suicide bomb.dek because you're risking gorz.

In a non-maxx c situation, if you get Gorzed, you might be OK. But giving your opponent that much advantage means that unless you win this turn, you're going to lose on your next. Not exactly ideal for a 9+ round tournament.

If you build your deck right just like any other deck gorz should be barely a problem. I mean if I limiter and all my Wind Up carriers are 3000 all I need is a lance and I still win.

[DBZ-Gohan]

Originally Posted by Gaspar

And what if you do not have counters for the OTK either?
Hand Traps should be (for lack of better words) a luxury. They should NOT be a necessity.

could one not argue this for almost anything though?
Well if you don't have anything counters to Infernitys going off you lose.
If you don't have anything to stop Karakuri going off you lose
If you have no counters to Judgment Dragon you lose...

One might consider the reason Wind-Ups are so good at the minute. It's because Chaos Dragons are so abundant. The deck plays hardly any backrow and this means Wind-Ups can take advantage of this. Lets look at what they don't do so well against. HEROs, Dino Rabbit, etc. Decks that have a heavy backrow all day long. To stand a chance against these decks Wind-Ups either have to a) Loop the hand turn 1. Or b) grind, grind, grind.

Now if we take Hunter out of the equation we're left with option b. Against control decks Wind-Ups have to slowly try to bait out the backrow to set themselves an opening for a big play. However at the minute that isn't that difficult since we have 3xMST and Heavy Storm. If the number of MST went down then Wind-Ups would have a much tougher time breaking through backrows than they do right now.

So in summary while Wind-Ups can spam the board very quickly they are also a combo deck, and combo decks are left vulnerable if their combo is disrupted. So perhaps those that fear derpy otk plays might consider how other changes to the list could inadvertently affect the playability of Wind-Ups.

[Gaspar]

Comparing Karakuri and Infernity with Judgment Dragon is completely off...

[Master_Kowoyoshi]

Originally Posted by Gaspar

Comparing Karakuri and Infernity with Judgment Dragon is completely off...

I have played with one and played against two, those decks are OP people just don't see it.

So I see has comparison.

[DBZ-Gohan]

Originally Posted by Gaspar

Comparing Karakuri and Infernity with Judgment Dragon is completely off...

I'm aware, but I wasn't comparing them. I was merely listing senarios off the top of my head where not having a counter for it would likely result losing.
Another example would be Ojama OTK.
I simply wanted to point out the blanket statement of if you don't have counters then you lose doesn't really help since you can equally apply it to decks that are not relevant and unlikely to become relevant any time soon.

[CardApp]

Originally Posted by politiciansplague

Actually gottoms was the loop.

No, Fautroll was the loop. Hence "Fautroll Loop"

And to be fair to the above: Karakuri can otk without much prior set up, Ojama OTK actually requires mutliple cards to be combined and takes time to set up, right?

[Vecrid]

Originally Posted by politiciansplague

Smart wind-up players can play around veiler with extreme ease. And it only takes one Book of Moon or Monster Reborn to just keep the loop going after veiler.

junk forward
Instant Fusion
wind-up shark
Monster Reborn
Book of Moon

that us just some of the things off the top of my head that can easily bypass a veiler, hell ive been triple veilered and still looped the last 2 cards turn 1 (Pot of Avarice is busted)

[Raising Toast]

Originally Posted by KidAtrocitus

Ban hunter. After that they are still a really powerful rank 3-5 engine

That's precisely why hunter shouldn't be hit. A problem still remains.