My attempt to wash the derp off Yu-Gi-Oh

[SageShini]

I'm going to be a little weird with this list. Most things on this list are subject to change if someone makes a reasonable argument why they shouldn't be where they are.

Banned:

Future Fusion: This instead of Five-Headed Dragon. Only decent argument I got for why one card should be banned over another.
Wind-Up Hunter: This deck isn't topping left and right like people predicted, but this is just an unnecessary card that Wind-Ups would probably do better without since there would be fewer bad players on this deck doing the loop.
Gateway of the Six: Ridiculous card that spits out pluses just for you doing natural gameplay things. Ew.
Judgment Dragon: Poor card design, plain and simple.
Black Whirlwind: I'm doing this because I need people to shut up for what happens next with Blackwings.
Black Luster Soldier: ...Why was this unbanned to begin with?
Monster Reborn: Come from behind victories are boring. With less herp-derp in this game, people should just learn to play better if they want to win.
Dark Hole: Torrential can stay at 2, but this can go away.
Heavy Storm: Meh, this can go too. But while I'm at it...
Mind Control: Way too good with Synchro and Exceeds running around.
Solemn Warning: Heavy can't go without taking a Solemn brother with it.
Royal Tribute: Who thought this was fair in the first place?
Dark Armed Dragon: You wanted him banned? Sure. Of course Hyperion, JD, and Grapha had to be knocked down some too though.
Dandylion: This card was always the problem with plants, to me.
Sangan: Said it before: I did a bit of looking up for old Tier 1 decks. This card continues to find its way inside them. Go away now.


Limited:
Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon: Please don't come whining to me Disaster Dragon fans. I never liked this card in the first place, but it's honestly proving a problem now, so no thanks.
Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaity: The deck becomes OTK-oriented if Hunter goes away and I'd like true Wind-Up fans to no longer have to deal with tools playing their deck.
Inzektor Hornet: Inzektor players will be fine with a single copy of this. If it gets D.D. Crow'd, too bad.
Six Samurai United: Learn to play without overextending, please and thank you. (Tempted to semi this.)
Gemini Spark: This card seems all fair and whatnot, except it's almost impossible for a player to be in a worse position when they use it. It fills the grave, gets rid of an opponent's defenses, and draws a card for you. I personally don't think HEROes need the hit, but if a card HAS to be hit, it should be this.
Master Hyperion: The game needs fewer easily summoned beaters with great effects.
Grapha: See above.
Dark Magician of Chaos: With all the power spells hit, this is just a boost for spellcasters.
Hieratic Dragon King of Atum: Hieratics are a tad silly. Let's fix that a bit.
Rescue Rabbit: Because nobody wants to run normals for a card that only exists at 1.


Semi-Limited:
Gale the Whirlwind
Lonefire Blossom: Glow-Up is gone, Dandylion is gone, Trish is gone.
Debris Dragon: See above.
Reinforcement of the Army: This one I'm not so sure about. If someone gives me an argument for why it should stay limited that's good, I'll accept it.
Dimensional Prison: No Storm. People don't need THREE of these, and nearly everyone will main at least one if not two. I'll take good arguments to limit this, too.
Tour Guide From the Underworld: Because people are so terrified of this card. One day this card will exist at 3 with Sangan and BLS banned and it will cease to be the mini-engine it is in Dino Rabbits right now. And everyone will be cool with it, and I'll pretty much dislike you all.

Unlimited:
Shien's Smoke Signal: HEROes can have three searchers, why can't these guys? Especially with their other cards slammed.
Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow: You can't search him now without summoning him, and most people didn't even WANT a Blackwings hit but once Konami said it was okay to kick a dead horse, the players jumped in to agree. Eff it.
The Agent of Mystery - Earth: Should never have been hit.
Spore: To 100.
T.G. Striker: Nobody but Konami and bad players wanted this card hit.
Destiny Draw: Who cares?
Emergency Teleport: Somebody reprint this, but with DAD gone and Mind Master too, this is just great psychic support.
Primal Seed: BLS goes back on the banlist, we move on.


>>In b4 "bad list is bad" comments

Edit: Made some changes and hit the cards people were afraid of. Feel better?

[nukm4]

Future Fusion does not help Fusion summoning.

Ban Rabbit, not Laggia.

Ban TGU, not Sangan.

Gemini Spark IS a fair card, hit Miracle Fusion if anything.

Hornet should be banned.

Kalut should never go above 1, and Gale should be at 3.

[SageShini]

Originally Posted by nukm4

Future Fusion does not help Fusion summoning.

That's what I said, but people keep bugging me about it on that.

Ban Rabbit, not Laggia.

Give me a reason why. What other Rank 4 is as scary as Laggia?

Ban TGU, not Sangan.

For what? In a slower format even TGU isn't all that scary. Zenmaines is cute, but with Compulsory more of an option now it'll get bounced a lot.

Gemini Spark IS a fair card, hit Miracle Fusion if anything.

Hitting Gemini Spark hurts Hero Beat. Hitting Miracle Fusion just hurts any version of Heroes. Plus, how is Gemini Spark fair at all?

Hornet should be banned.

No thanks.

Kalut should never go above 1, and Gale should be at 3.

Again, no thanks. Blackwings wouldn't even be Tier 1 with the changes I made, you just wouldn't laugh when you had to duel them anymore.

[Conquistador]

With this list, you just brought back T.G. Agents to their original state which dominated the ocg and was a powerful contender in the tcg.

[SageShini]

Originally Posted by Conquistador

With this list, you just brought back T.G. Agents to their original state which dominated the ocg and was a powerful contender in the tcg.

With a single Hyperion and no Trish, no I did not. They are still going to have major trouble getting over Inzektors or any other good Exceed deck.

[Redsmas]

Originally Posted by SageShini

The Agent of Mystery - Earth: Should never have been hit.
T.G. Striker: Nobody but Konami and bad players wanted this card hit.

POP quiz. Why were these cards hit?

[SageShini]

Originally Posted by redsmas

POP quiz. Why were these cards hit?

Because T.G. Agents were topping in the OCG. ...And then Inzektors and Hieratic-Gishki (and some other stuff) came along. I find it extremely hard to believe they could maintain the same dominance now.

While we're at it, meanwhile in the OCG, T.G. Agents had a somewhat decent showing for part of a format, and then they couldn't manage more than an occasional top 16/32 spots, since Rabbit and Chaos Plants were too good for that. Basically we had to suffer because our meta differs. I used to love T.G.s, but after seeing them hit when they never did much here, I pretty much stopped running them.

[Redsmas]

T.G. Agents weren't just topping, they dominated the OCG. Inzektors came out and knocked them down a peg, but they still topped repeatedly. Seeing how hard they got hit Inzektors should receive an appropriately severe punishment.

Additional Comment:

Also about DMOC coming back http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Temperance_of_Prophecy
Instant +1 get back any spell. Plus DMOC effect to remove form play monsters it destroys is a bit OP as well.

[nukm4]

Originally Posted by SageShini

Give me a reason why. What other Rank 4 is as scary as Laggia?

Normal summoning xyz's is fine, as long as there aren't any good ones? Yay for shortsighted thinking...

For what? In a slower format even TGU isn't all that scary. Zenmaines is cute, but with Compulsory more of an option now it'll get bounced a lot.

Normal summoning xyz's is fine as long as there are more counters? Yay for logical fallacies...

Hitting Gemini Spark hurts Hero Beat. Hitting Miracle Fusion just hurts any version of Heroes. Plus, how is Gemini Spark fair at all?

Hero decks don't need 3 Miracle Fusion to be good, at least not if you balance the meta enough. Miracle Fusion gives them one card boss monsters just for summoning monsters.

No thanks.

You've obviously never tested the deck without Hornet. It's balanced, and doesn't **** advantage.

Again, no thanks. Blackwings wouldn't even be Tier 1 with the changes I made, you just wouldn't laugh when you had to duel them anymore.

You've said nothing to counter my assertion that Kalut shouldn't move up, you've just said the deck won't be broke; guess what: I don't give a ****. Gale is fine and can go to three, just not Kalut.

[Redsmas]

POP quiz, Question 2: Why did Blackwings have so many hits?

[nukm4]

Originally Posted by redsmas

POP quiz, Question 2: Why did Blackwings have so many hits?

OCG just wouldn't let the deck die, and Konami wanted them to buy new product.

[SageShini]

Originally Posted by redsmas

T.G. Agents weren't just topping, they dominated the OCG. Inzektors came out and knocked them down a peg, but they still topped repeatedly. Seeing how hard they got hit Inzektors should receive an appropriately severe punishment.

I'm fully aware of how powerful T.G. Agents were. Was your point about Inzektors this whole time? Inzektors aren't as solid a deck as T.G. Agents. They're barely holding on here and while they're stomping in Japan I don't think the deck would have the same level of power if they lost two Hornets.

Additional Comment:

Also about DMOC coming back http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Temperance_of_Prophecy
Instant +1 get back any spell. Plus DMOC effect to remove form play monsters it destroys is a bit OP as well.

Have you tested the deck, or did you just wikia the card? The Prophecy monsters are somewhere around "okay" nowhere near "great". This would make them better, but I still don't think they'd be OP, just more annoying.

Originally Posted by nukm4

OCG just wouldn't let the deck die, and Konami wanted them to buy new product.

I like how, "they were horribly broken" couldn't be found in this.

Normal summoning xyz's is fine, as long as there aren't any good ones? Yay for shortsighted thinking...

Laggia isn't good. It's a walking Solemn Judgment. I'm kind of hoping Konami has it in them to NOT keep making silly Rank 4s, since thus far these have been the only ones.

Normal summoning xyz's is fine as long as there are more counters? Yay for logical fallacies...

This argument is really ****ty, but I'll hit Tour Guide to 2. No Sangan + only 2 Guides = Might as well be banned. I just didn't see the point since the engine wouldn't be used as much without BLS and in a slower meta where monsters are more susceptible to being bounced or banished.

Hero decks don't need 3 Miracle Fusion to be good, at least not if you balance the meta enough. Miracle Fusion gives them one card boss monsters just for summoning monsters.

You're avoiding Spark to hit the card that makes Spark better, then? I guess.

You've said nothing to counter my assertion that Kalut shouldn't move up, you've just said the deck won't be broke; guess what: I don't give a ****. Gale is fine and can go to three, just not Kalut.

If you want Kalut at 1, make your own list. I get that Blackwings gave you nightmares or some such nonsense back in 2009. But get over it, they aren't the same threat they used to be, and even if Kalut moved back to 3 they still wouldn't be. By your own admission Konami didn't hit Kalut in the first place because they thought it was broken. They hit it because the OCG wouldn't stop running it.

[Redsmas]

Originally Posted by SageShini

Have you tested the deck, or did you just wikia the card? The Prophecy monsters are somewhere around "okay" nowhere near "great". This would make them better, but I still don't think they'd be OP, just more annoying.

Yes I have testes the deck. They in no way need DMOC.

[Gaspar]

TGU to 1. Now.
DMoC can be unbanned. Temper/ance restricts you from summoning other big monsters DMoC was usually brought along with when it was legal the last time. Then again, it also had something to do with which deck was so powerful at the time...
Future Fusion does not help Fusion Summoning at all. Ban it. Leave Five-Headed Dragon alone.

[mido9]

Originally Posted by Gaspar

Future Fusion does not help Fusion Summoning at all. Ban it. Leave Five-Headed Dragon alone.

Whether it does do what it's intended to do or not doesnt matter,what matters is that it is doing something that is good for game when happening.

FGD is poorly designed anyway in that it either completely sucks or is incredibly stupid with FF in a way that it shouldnt,much like Mass Driver being either useless or broken.

[Redsmas]

Dragons aren't the only thing that can use Future Fusion. There are tones of OTKs, FTKs and loops revolving around it.

[mido9]

Then decide on whether the other parts of the loop/whatever are better for game than Future Fusion or not ._.

[WinstonShnozwick]

I'd take time to make valid and logical arguments about how OP is a ******, but nukm basically said everything already.

Seriously, ban laggia, leave rabbit. Lol are you an idiot?
Ban zenmaines, keep TGU. I've lost a few brain cells in this thought.

[nukm4]

Originally Posted by SageShini

I get that Blackwings gave you nightmares or some such nonsense back in 2009. But get over it, they aren't the same threat they used to be, and even if Kalut moved back to 3 they still wouldn't be.

And now I have lost all respect I may have had for you. Well done, and go **** yourself.

[joshy118]

Not doing anything to Inzektors makes the rest of your list look so much worse. You hit Wind-Ups even after killing the loop by limiting a reasonable card (Zenmaity), you hit Heroes by hitting a perfectly balanced card (Spark), you hit Six Samurai by hitting a card that has been around forever...all of these are fair hits with the right argument, but doing all this while completely leaving Inzektors alone is one of the dumbest things I've seen on this board in recent memory.

[SageShini]

Originally Posted by Gaspar

TGU to 1. Now.
DMoC can be unbanned. Temper/ance restricts you from summoning other big monsters DMoC was usually brought along with when it was legal the last time. Then again, it also had something to do with which deck was so powerful at the time...
Future Fusion does not help Fusion Summoning at all. Ban it. Leave Five-Headed Dragon alone.

Five-Headed Dragon is a pretty ****ty card, like mido said, but sure.

Originally Posted by WinstonShnozwick

I'd take time to make valid and logical arguments about how OP is a ******, but nukm basically said everything already.

Seriously, ban laggia, leave rabbit. Lol are you an idiot?

You never had any valid arguments, you just wanted to chip in some insults. Tell me what's scary about Rescue Rabbit with Laggia banned? Dolkka? If you can't get rid of Dolkka via spells, traps, or any monster with attack higher than 2300, I'm not sure what to say.

As far as there being new cards Rabbit could be abused for? Ban lists should be taken about as seriously as fantasy football lists. They aren't happening; I don't care how rock solid you think your logic is. Konami is going to alter the banlist to sell the most product. Point being? In my world, where this banlist was somehow possible, Konami stops making stupid-ass cards that would BE abusable to an extent that they create broken decks.

Ban zenmaines, keep TGU. I've lost a few brain cells in this thought.

I never said ANYTHING about banning Zenmaines. I said TGU is a great card, but once you hit the decks that use it which are broken, it becomes far less of a threat. Did you even LOOK at the list?

Originally Posted by joshy118

Not doing anything to Inzektors makes the rest of your list look so much worse. You hit Wind-Ups even after killing the loop by limiting a reasonable card (Zenmaity), you hit Heroes by hitting a perfectly balanced card (Spark), you hit Six Samurai by hitting a card that has been around forever...all of these are fair hits with the right argument, but doing all this while completely leaving Inzektors alone is one of the dumbest things I've seen on this board in recent memory.

But I didn't leave Inzektors alone, did you even READ the list or did you just read the arguments being made.

Originally Posted by nukm4

And now I have lost all respect I may have had for you. Well done, and go **** yourself.

I don't actually know you, so y'know...your existence (and respect) is irrelevant to me. Enjoy your misplaced rage over a fake banlist that won't ever come to pass in the first place.

[calm_thinker]

Originally Posted by nukm4

And now I have lost all respect I may have had for you. Well done, and go **** yourself.

Is this list better than what we have now?

[MikeApollo]

5-7 of your hits are Understandable hits the rest are just meh/butthurt


over all list gets 3 Meh out of 10

[SageShini]

Originally Posted by MikeApollo

5-7 of your hits are Understandable hits the rest are just meh/butthurt


over all list gets 3 Meh out of 10

Name some hits you don't understand. If DAD is in there, just sayin--I'd rather keep DAD around, but I tried to be pretty fair with this list.

Is this list better than what we have now?

There's no way it can be worse.

[! ! ! $]

Whirlwind banned? The card design is actually very great and the only real abuse it had was when we had gale and kalut at any number greater than 1.

Six Samurai United is a fair card design too. If you limit that you might as well limit Destiny Draw, Shard of Greed, etc.

Limiting Earth was enough to keep Hyperion at 3. With Earth at 1 you have an increasingly less amount of Agents to support the use of Hyperion because not only did you lose two earths, you lost two searchers for other agents. By saying this card should've never been limited, you're pretty much stating Elemental Hero Stratos should've never been limited.

I can already imagine so many things that I could do with DMoC as far as abuse that it's not really funny.

Lol @ Dimensional Prison at 2 as if that card's any sort of threat.

Smoke Signal to 3? Do heroes have support like United, Gateway, Dojo, and their own boss monster (outside of Miracle) like Shi En?

As said before, you just re-created what was the best deck in Japan, T.G. Agent.


You already said it yourself "bad list is bad". There's more I could've covered but that was basics.