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Old 12-11-2011, 02:43 PM   #1
DSlayer
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Default Activation and chain ruling during the Standby phase

I have some trouble understanding the conditions for the activation of some mandatory trigger and trigger-like effects that can happen mainly during the Standby phase.

1) The simple case: during your main phase, if a chain of three different links is made and resolved while one Lightning Punisher is face-up on the field, you fulfill the "conditions" for this monster effect's activation and you have to destroy one card on the opponent side of the field. Then what happens if there is no cards on your opponent's side? Does the effect activate, starting a new chain, and resolving without effect because of the absence of target? Or is the presence of a valid target a "condition" for the activation of such a mandatory effect?

2) If you have Graverobber's Retribution active on your field during your Standby phase, can you activate its effect even when there is no cards in the removed from play zone? Will it activate then resolve and deal 0 damage, or is it impossible to use its effect (mandatory) despite the fact that we don't need to designate a specific target for this card?

3) Can you chain to one another mandatory trigger-like effets during the Standby phase as long as the speed requirements are met? For exemple, you activate Burning Land's effect (already on the field) and then chain to it Graverobber's Retribution, and then more speed spell 2 trigger-like effets like Nightmare Wheel, on the same chain?

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Old 12-11-2011, 02:49 PM   #2
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1) The effect still activates and starts a chain, but it resolves without effect. Mandatory Trigger Effects always activate even if there is no eligible target for them or they would otherwise be unable to resolve (like if Sangan is sent from the field to the graveyard while Thunder King Rai-Oh is face-up).

2) Same as above. It starts a chain every standby phase, but if there are no banished monsters in your opponent's banished pile it will simply deal no damage.

3) Effects of the form "During the X Phase" generally do not form chains with each other. You would activate and resolve each effect on a new chain.
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:24 PM   #3
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Thanks a lot for your answers! This makes more sense for 1) and 2) like that.

About 3) I know you can't consider simultaneus speed spell 1 effects occuring during the same phase, but then that means you get to chose the order each mandatory effect will activate, then I don't see why we wouldn't be able to chain a continuous trap card's activation to a continuous spell card like we usually do. I can't find a ruling that would prospect that, knowing that we can of course chain any trap to any standby phase effect's activation. Wouldn't it be weird if we couldn't chain speed spell 2 effects inside of their specific phase, exactly because this is that phase? I'm interested in the case of mandatory trigger-like effects of continuous spell and trap cards. Please help me clear this up
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:01 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by phoenixrawr View Post
1) The effect still activates and starts a chain, but it resolves without effect. Mandatory Trigger Effects always activate even if there is no eligible target for them or they would otherwise be unable to resolve (like if Sangan is sent from the field to the graveyard while Thunder King Rai-Oh is face-up).
Are you sure on this one?
The difference between Lightning Punisher and Sangan is that Lightning Punisher targets.
It is unable to do what it needs to do at activation, so how can it possibly resolve?
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:04 AM   #5
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Indeed it seems different from Sangan's effect, but I can't be sure...
Can someone confirm this? And also answer my third question if possible
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:17 AM   #6
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Thanks a lot for your answers! This makes more sense for 1) and 2) like that.

About 3) I know you can't consider simultaneus speed spell 1 effects occuring during the same phase, but then that means you get to chose the order each mandatory effect will activate, then I don't see why we wouldn't be able to chain a continuous trap card's activation to a continuous spell card like we usually do. I can't find a ruling that would prospect that, knowing that we can of course chain any trap to any standby phase effect's activation. Wouldn't it be weird if we couldn't chain speed spell 2 effects inside of their specific phase, exactly because this is that phase? I'm interested in the case of mandatory trigger-like effects of continuous spell and trap cards. Please help me clear this up
Trigger and Trigger-like effects that occur during the standby phase (or draw phase, end phase, etc.) do not have a specific activation timing, other than that they need to occur during that phase.

Other trigger effects - take Black Rose Dragon and Dandylion, form a chain out of necessity. You synch using Dandylion to summon Black Rose Dragon. Now the response window is "Black Rose Dragon was synchro summoned, Dandylion was sent to the graveyard". Both effects need to activate during this window, because they will not meet the requirements in the next response window.
So, they will form a chain, with Dandylion as chain link 1, and Black Rose Dragon as chain link 2.

However, trigger-like effects that occur during X phase do not need to activate in a specific response window.
Therefore, their effects will activate one at a time during that phase.

You can, of course, chain any spell speed 2 or higher effect to the trigger-like effect of a spell or trap card, as long as the card can be legally activated (i.e. you can't chain Solemn Warning or Solemn Judgment to a face-up card's trigger-like effect, because those need to respond to the activation of a card).
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:39 AM   #7
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When a mandatory Trigger Effect is forced to activate without a target, the effect activates without you choosing a target. In this case the effect will disappear when it resolves.
http://web.archive.org/web/200902110...d/1355070.aspx

As far as I know we haven't received any contradictory rulings since then, and it's consistent with the mechanic even if the targeting makes things a little weird.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:51 AM   #8
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I believe there was either an R&D email or a post in the judge forum that said Bestiari's effect will not activate if there are no spell and trap cards on the field when it is summoned.

The consensus currently is that mandatory effects that target will not activate if there is no legal target.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:57 AM   #9
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Thanks! So that means I can make the chain Burning Land > Graverobber's Retribution > Nightmare Wheel during the standby phase, once per turn (correct me if I'm wrong)

It seems there is some differences between OCG and TCG. If I'm right, usually only japanese folks go by OCG and we usually apply TCG rules. What is the current and official (or close to official) and applied rule regarding "mandatory effect without a target"? Can they activate and resolve without effect or can't they activate at all?

EDIT: Wow you guys answered fast, thanks!
But that's too bad if the rulings changed to forbid activation... is this how we do in a tournament?

Last edited by DSlayer : 12-12-2011 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:58 AM   #10
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^And LaDD's summoning effect wont activate if there's no available targets in the graveyard, if I remembered correctly? Maybe that's an entirely different matter though.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:39 AM   #11
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I have more questions of the same kind... ^^

Does Life Absorbing Machine effect activates and give you 0 LP at your standby phase if you didn't pay for any LP cost if the previous turn?

When a monster targeted by Shattered Axe has its attack set to 0 by this effect, will the card Shattered Axe activate and do nothing on the next standby phase, or won't it even activate?
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:22 PM   #12
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^And LaDD's summoning effect wont activate if there's no available targets in the graveyard, if I remembered correctly? Maybe that's an entirely different matter though.
Bestiari's ruling contradicts a bunch of others, so you should ask Konami about that.

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I have more questions of the same kind... ^^

Does Life Absorbing Machine effect activates and give you 0 LP at your standby phase if you didn't pay for any LP cost if the previous turn?

When a monster targeted by Shattered Axe has its attack set to 0 by this effect, will the card Shattered Axe activate and do nothing on the next standby phase, or won't it even activate?
1) Most likely, it does.

2) Most likely, it does.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:16 PM   #13
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Thank you for your answers!

From what I could get from this :
- you can always activate once (at a time you choose during the Standby Phase) a mandatory effect that takes place at the Standby Phase as long as the target is available if there is one, even if the effet cannot do anything.
- you can form a chain with these effects even though they aren't simultaneus as long as they have the right spell speed. Anyone to confirm this?

I'll make a new post for Lightning Punisher as a specific card ruling because it wouldn't surprise me if there would be an exception or two in the game ^^
By the way, how do you ask Konami? XD
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
- you can form a chain with these effects even though they aren't simultaneus as long as they have the right spell speed. Anyone to confirm this?
Effects that activate "during X Phase" don't form chains with each other. Considering your two other questions, Life Absorbing Machine and Shattered Axe don't form chains with each other, for example.

For your other assumption, Mandatory Effects tend to activate no matter what. Like I mentioned before, Bestiari's ruling isn't exactly intuitive.
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E-mail us-ygorules@konami.com.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:14 AM   #15
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Segoc says : you can chain simultaneus spell speed 1 effects if they are not merely meant to happen during the ___ phase. This is not what I am refering to.

I'm talking about forming chains between spell/trap cards that have a trigger-like effect like the cards I mentionned before on this thread.
They take part in the chain unlike most other continuous card's effect, so I should be able to chain them once per turn (chain spell speed 2 to spell speed 1 or 2) if the condition for their activation is fulfilled (being in the right phase) and that I can choose the order of activation.

Don't tell me that my opponent could chain the activation of any of its spell speed 2 card to mine but that I can't chain mines together even if there is no unfulfilled condition to do so! Or is there?

This is just that "don't form chains with each other" doesn't mean to me that they CANNOT chain to each other in the usual way. Or should I ask Konami XD ? You think they would respond fast?
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:47 AM   #16
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trigger like effect, the called it trigger like effect because it works like trigger effect.
trigger effect (SS1) cannot be chained to each other except by segoc, so does continuous s/t or field spell that has the trigger like effect.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:50 AM   #17
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Segoc says : you can chain simultaneus spell speed 1 effects if they are not merely meant to happen during the ___ phase. This is not what I am refering to.

I'm talking about forming chains between spell/trap cards that have a trigger-like effect like the cards I mentionned before on this thread.
They take part in the chain unlike most other continuous card's effect, so I should be able to chain them once per turn (chain spell speed 2 to spell speed 1 or 2) if the condition for their activation is fulfilled (being in the right phase) and that I can choose the order of activation.

Don't tell me that my opponent could chain the activation of any of its spell speed 2 card to mine but that I can't chain mines together even if there is no unfulfilled condition to do so! Or is there?

This is just that "don't form chains with each other" doesn't mean to me that they CANNOT chain to each other in the usual way. Or should I ask Konami XD ? You think they would respond fast?
You can't chain trigger-like effects (Or ignition-like effects, if that even exists) to each other if the specific timing is just during a certain phase. Only because the card itself is spell speed 2 (Trap card) doesn't have to mean the effect performed by the card is of the same spell speed.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:50 AM   #18
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Damn I had no idea you could have a different spell speed for one of your effect than the activation of the card itself...anyway thanks for your answers.

That means I can only form a chain between these cards if I play them for the first time (play the cards from my hand or flip them face-up from your field) consecutively in the same Standby phase, and then their effect will activate and resolve separately later during the phase?
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:27 AM   #19
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That means I can only form a chain between these cards if I play them for the first time (play the cards from my hand or flip them face-up from your field) consecutively in the same Standby phase, and then their effect will activate and resolve separately later during the phase?
I don't think there is any continuous s/t or field spell card with "during X Phase" trigger effect triggered at the same time as their initial activation.

but yes, provide the activation timing is correct you can chain each other initial activation (i.e. flipping/activating 2 Bottomless Shifting Sand or Blind Destruction in chain).
their trigger like effect, however, is always activated and resolved separately later.
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