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Old 11-26-2011, 11:14 PM   #1
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Default Darkflare Dragon VS Eclipse Wyvern

Darkflare Dragon:

You can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 LIGHT and 1 DARK monsters from your Graveyard. Once per turn: You can send 1 Dragon-Type monster each from your hand and Deck to the Graveyard to target 1 card from either player's Graveyard; banish that target.


Eclipse Wyvern:

If this card is sent to the Graveyard: You can banish 1 Level 7 or higher LIGHT or DARK Dragon-Type monster in your Deck. Then, if this card in the Graveyard is banished:Add the monster banished by this effect to your hand.

===============

The question:
Activate Darkflare's effect and discard Wyvern selecting Wyvern in graveyard to be banished. Does Wyvern get his two effects?
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:50 AM   #2
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I get the feeling wyvern would miss it's timing.

At the point that Wyvern would be trying to activate Darkflare would be in the middle of his little effect.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:06 AM   #3
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@Yellow: Wyvern has no timing to miss, since it's an "If->can" not a "When->Can" effect.

Based on the SEGOC (Simultaneous Effects Go[ing] On Chain) rule both of Wyvern's effects would go on a chain, with mandatory effects linking up first, and then the optional ones. Making the chain would look like:
Link 1: Wyvern tutors* the banished monster
Link 2: Wyvern banishes a monster form the deck

Resolve in reverse order, and the effects happen to go off in the right order. Have fun tutoring.

Edit: Fixed "summon" to tutor*. What the hell was I thinking?

Last edited by Indalecio : 11-28-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:42 AM   #4
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Basically Dark Flare Becomes "add an REDMD from your deck to your hand"

kind of thing.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:06 PM   #5
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Yeah, or LaDD. I'd really like to see LaDD control come back, and the new chaos-dragon deck has some very handy tools for it.
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Old 11-27-2011, 02:29 PM   #6
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The issue i see is that in the tcg, simultaneous effects activate in the order they're triggered. So wyverns first effect will have to be cl1 and its effect to add the banished card will be cl2.

Though i really don't care either way.
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:41 PM   #7
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I'm pretty sure it doesn't miss the timing.

They are designed to work together after all.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:50 AM   #8
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first of all, are these wording are precisely describe their effect? we know that miss translation isn't rare.

wyvern effect is in the question will the second effect activates in segoc to it's first when there is no card banished yet (by wyvern).
moreover if those wyvern's effects do create segoc then adding banished card resolved first fetch you nothing, you'll banish the dragon afterwards.

so, it's not about miss the timing. have fun troubling with unreleased card, i'll just wait for official ruling.

Last edited by poemi : 11-28-2011 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poemi View Post
first of all, are these wording are precisely describe their effect? we know that miss translation isn't rare.

wyvern effect is in the question will the second effect activates in segoc to it's first when there is no card banished yet (by wyvern).
moreover if those wyvern's effects do create segoc then adding banished card resolved first fetch you nothing, you'll banish the dragon afterwards.

so, it's not about miss the timing. have fun troubling with unreleased card, i'll just wait for official ruling.
There's a difference between a ruling and game mechanics.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neonian View Post
The issue i see is that in the tcg, simultaneous effects activate in the order they're triggered. So wyverns first effect will have to be cl1 and its effect to add the banished card will be cl2.

Though i really don't care either way.
Do they activate at the same time though? You send Eclipse to the graveyard as a Cost first then remove him from play second. If they do happen simultanously though then Eclipse's effect will not work at all. Banishing a lv7 or higher dragon is Mandatory so it will be chain link 1 and not chain link 2 like the optional recovery of said dragon. I can't really think of anything similar to this except using Magic Jammer by discarding The Fabled Cerburrel and having Van'Dalgyon the Dark Dragon Lord in your hand. But I have no clue what happens in this situation.


After reading the card again something interesting popped up. The card text is quite different from the example above though because of the "After that" part.

Quote:
SD22-JP003 - Super Rare
Eclipse Wyvern
Light Dragon / Effect
LV4 1600/1000
If this card is sent to the Graveyard: Banish 1 Level 7 or higher LIGHT or DARK monster from your Deck. After that, if this card is banished from the Graveyard: You can add the monster that was banished by this card to your hand.
This implies that you need to resolve the first effect before the 2nd effect can even activate. So no chain should occur at all. And since the 2nd effect has no timing involved, it will create a seperate chain after both of its conditions are met, banishing the lvl 7 or higher dragon and being banished from the grave.

So it is best to wait for the official ruling.

Last edited by Unities : 11-28-2011 at 12:27 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unities View Post
Do they activate at the same time though? You send Eclipse to the graveyard as a Cost first then remove him from play second. If they do happen simultanously though then Eclipse's effect will not work at all. Banishing a lv7 or higher dragon is Mandatory so it will be chain link 1 and not chain link 2 like the optional recovery of said dragon. I can't really think of anything similar to this except using Magic Jammer by discarding The Fabled Cerburrel and having Van'Dalgyon the Dark Dragon Lord in your hand. But I have no clue what happens in this situation.


After reading the card again something interesting popped up. The card text is quite different from the example above though because of the "After that" part.



This implies that you need to resolve the first effect before the 2nd effect can even activate. So no chain should occur at all. And since the 2nd effect has no timing involved, it will create a seperate chain after both of its conditions are met, banishing the lvl 7 or higher dragon and being banished from the grave.

So it is best to wait for the official ruling.
i don't think wyvern's two mandatory effects create a chain at all.

volcanic scattershots activate in its own separate chain. though the wording does make it work though.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword_Stalker View Post
i don't think wyvern's two mandatory effects create a chain at all.

volcanic scattershots activate in its own separate chain. though the wording does make it work though.
I guess it depends on whether or note Wyvern works the same way as scattershot, though I doubt it.

The difference between the two is that wyvern is meeting both it's triggers in the same chain.
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Last edited by Neonian : 11-28-2011 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword_Stalker View Post
i don't think wyvern's two mandatory effects create a chain at all.
Wyvern only has 1 mandatory effect (the banishing of the lv7 Dragon).
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neonian View Post
I guess it depends on whether or note Wyvern works the same way as scattershot, though I doubt it.

The difference between the two is that wyvern is meeting both it's triggers in the same chain.
its really about his Tri-Blaze Accelerator combination

each one deals 500 when sent to grave(save the combo piece scattershot)

they both are sent to graveyard. each effect activates but not on the same chain.

also look at dark world. with Card Destruction. they all activate but separate chains(i think)
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:24 PM   #15
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I have problem with the THEN. Can the second effect even activate when the first effect wasn't activated at the time it is already removed from play (cause the first effect activates, as soon as it is removed from play throught the effect of Dark Flare)? =/
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword_Stalker View Post
its really about his Tri-Blaze Accelerator combination

each one deals 500 when sent to grave(save the combo piece scattershot)

they both are sent to graveyard. each effect activates but not on the same chain.

also look at dark world. with Card Destruction. they all activate but separate chains(i think)

If scattershot is sent by Blaze Accelerator (or tri-blaze), then it's effect to deal 500 damage doesn't activate anyway, so it's kind of irrelavent.

As for dark worlds, Again, totally different scenarios, because those are all seperate effects going in chain whereas wyvern has 2 effects that both meet the trigger at the same time but SEGOC rulings mean that it's 2nd effect would either start a new chain or just not activate at all.
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:46 PM   #17
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You can only activate the second effect of Eclipse if it actually banished a Dragon.

Banish Dragon. Then, add banished Dragon by this card's effect.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:06 PM   #18
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I'm confused.

Suppose Darkflare activates his effect and sends Eclipse Wyvern and "x" monster to the graveyard as a cost and then targets Eclipse Wyvern for its effect.

Unless your opponent chains something spell speed 2+, couldn't you then chain Eclipse Wyvern's first effect to Darkflare because his trigger requirement is fulfilled?

Eclipse Wyvern would be resolve as chain link 2 and banish a monster from the deck, and then Darkflare would resolve chain link 1 and banish Eclipse Wyvern.

Eclipse Wyvern's second effect's trigger would be fulfilled and would wait for the chain to fully resolve, and then be placed as chain link 1 for it's own effect.

If your opponent chains to Darkflare (bottomless or whatever), you wouldn't be able to activate Eclipse's first effect in that chain (because it's spell speed 1) and Darkflare would resolve and banish Eclipse Wyvern.

Eclipse's first effect can still be activated when that chain resolves in a new chain, but since Eclipse Wyvern was already banished in the prior chain, he would not be "banished from the graveyard" in time for his second effect.

From the looks of the wording, he needs to activate his first effect before he is eligible to activate the second one.

I could be totally wrong though. The second scenario (Darkflare/Bottomless) could seriously go either way when you think about it.

Does anyone know any rulings for cards that say "Then" off the top of their head? My wikipedia searching abilities are limited.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains View Post
I'm confused.

Suppose Darkflare activates his effect and sends Eclipse Wyvern and "x" monster to the graveyard as a cost and then targets Eclipse Wyvern for its effect.

Unless your opponent chains something spell speed 2+, couldn't you then chain Eclipse Wyvern's first effect to Darkflare because his trigger requirement is fulfilled?
Uh, no. It's a Trigger effect. It can't chain to an Ignition effect. That's like saying "Dandylion" chains to "One for One" when you use it for the sending cost.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Uh, no. It's a Trigger effect. It can't chain to an Ignition effect. That's like saying "Dandylion" chains to "One for One" when you use it for the sending cost.
Oh. My bad. I was unaware of how exactly trigger effects resolve.

Let the confusion continue until the rulings come out, then.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:14 PM   #21
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What confusion? Just extraplotate from the EXVC psychics. The ones that Banish whatever when X happens, and then fetch it to your Hand when Y happens. If X and Y happen at a very narrow timing, then you can't fetch what was Banished.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
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What confusion? Just extraplotate from the EXVC psychics. The ones that Banish whatever when X happens, and then fetch it to your Hand when Y happens. If X and Y happen at a very narrow timing, then you can't fetch what was Banished.
Are you referring to Silent Psychic Wizard? Because its first effect is a "when->can" and can miss the timing, which makes a difference when comparing it to Eclipse Wyvern.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indalecio View Post
Are you referring to Silent Psychic Wizard? Because its first effect is a "when->can" and can miss the timing, which makes a difference when comparing it to Eclipse Wyvern.
It actually doesn't since the last thing to happen would still be the trigger in both scenarios. On top of that, the banish SS is mandatory
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:12 AM   #24
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Don't discarding and targeting both happen at the the same time meaning you can't target what you discard/send to grave with DarkFlare? I thought I asked this question a long time ago and this was the response.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Don't discarding and targeting both happen at the the same time meaning you can't target what you discard/send to grave with DarkFlare? I thought I asked this question a long time ago and this was the response.
Find whoever is feeding you these lies and punch them in the face.
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