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Old 10-21-2011, 11:54 AM   #1
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Default Wind-Up Zenmaines vs Bottomless Trap hole

If my opponent summons Wind-Up Zenmaines and I activate Bottomless Trap Hole. Can my opponent detach an Xyz material to stop Zenmaines from being removed from play?

I'm sure I'm not the only person to wonder this.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:09 PM   #2
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You can detach to keep it from being destroyed by "Bottomless Trap Hole", yes.

And I'm sure you aren't the only one wondering, but many people can fall back on monsters with the same kind of effect, like "Legendary Six Samurai - Shi En". Extrapolation is the key to understanding rulings.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:33 PM   #3
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Thanks again for your speedy replies.
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:26 AM   #4
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Don't mean to necrobump this, but this is the first thread that popped up in a google search.

I would just like a clear explanation as to why Zenmaines wouldn't be removed by BTH, even though it can prevent the destruction. I have an idea or two of my own, but I'd like confirmation/clarification.
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:28 AM   #5
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Both effects happen or no effect happens. Make a new thread next time.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:38 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redsmas View Post
Both effects happen or no effect happens. Make a new thread next time.
That's actually wrong. Multi-part single effects are in most cases resolved from left to right as read in the card text, A to B, which is also the case for Bottomless.

If Imperial Wall is chained to the activation of Bottomless, the monster will still be destroyed (A), but not banished (B).

Why Zenmaines is not destroyed in this case is because the rulings of Bottomless Trap Hole tells us that the monster must be destroyed (A) for it to be banished (B).
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:41 AM   #7
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Yeah I realised that after I posted. (A) must happen for (B) to happen. Otherwise (A) can happen without (B).
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:49 AM   #8
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Bottomless Trap Hole hasn't been reprinted with Problem Solving Card Text, but when it is, this would be my attempt at what it might look like...

"When the opponent Summons a monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK: Destroy those monsters with 1500 or more ATK, and if you do, banish them."

This follows the template Konami's been using for cards that negate and destroy cards and effects. It's made clear that you don't have to destroy to negate, but you do have to negate in order to destroy.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Joe View Post
Bottomless Trap Hole hasn't been reprinted with Problem Solving Card Text, but when it is, this would be my attempt at what it might look like...

"When the opponent Summons a monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK; destroy those monsters with 1500 or more ATK, and if you do, banish them."

This follows the template Konami's been using for cards that negate and destroy cards and effects. It's made clear that you don't have to destroy to negate, but you do have to negate in order to destroy.
The description will not be correct. Instead of ";" should be ":" cause the first words aren't a cost but a condition to the activation.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmetiago View Post
The description will not be correct. Instead of ";" should be ":" cause the first words aren't a cost but a condition to the activation.
You're correct. I've edited my post.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:36 AM   #11
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The destruction needs to happen for it to be removed.

No destruction means no removal, and since Zenmaines' destruction was prevented, it won't be removed.
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