The only viable Traditional deck

Ricky Evans · 08-04-2012, 04:04 PM

Due to the "rock-paper-scissors" nature of this format, and considering the fact that the winner of the game usually boils down to who gets to go first, I'm beginning to seriously doubt that anything other than a disruption strategy would have any real chance of winning a regional tournament if one existed for this format. Chaos is of course fun, and FTK's are more consistent than ever, but each is vulnerable enough when you crunch the numbers. Now, a deck based on disruption seems like it would be consistent enough that if it didn't get its one necessary setup it could win anyways.

I want to know what you guys think. I know this is just a casual format, but considering the fact that we have it as a Pegasus League challenge now, I think it really warrants discussion...

What truly is THE DECK to beat in this format?

I know it's been awhile since I've done a thread in this forum but I'll post the strategy I think is most viable in this format here in a couple days.

bwang · 08-05-2012, 10:33 PM

Makyura Exchange and other Makyura-based FTK's are really the only viable deck. Even though there are a few cards that can stop it (Purple Herald, Veiler'ing their Armageddon Knight), they still need to open with those cards, which isn't always the case. And if unimpeded, Exchange FTK almost always wins, especially with One Day of Peace.

Ricky Evans · 08-06-2012, 03:54 PM

Yeah by disruption though I wasn't really referring to Heralds or Effect Veiler, more along the lines something akin to a deck dedicated to just dropping Light and Darkness Dragon first turn (seeing as how practically over 66% of cards used in this format are Spell Cards vital to their set-up.

At least that's what my deck looks like:

Monstersx 15
3x Light and Darkness Dragon
3x Dark Grepher
1x Destiny Hero-Disk Commander
1x Elemental Hero Stratos
1x Dark Magician of Chaos
2x Destiny Hero-Malicious
1x Makyura the Destructor
3x Destiny Hero-Plasma

Spellsx 21
1x Pot of Greed
1x Graceful Charity
1x Allure of Darkness
3x Trade-In
2x Destiny Draw
1x Reinforcement of the Army
1x Painful Choice
3x Upstart Goblin
1x Monster Reborn
1x Premature Burial
1x Card Destruction
3x Hand Destruction
2x Double Summon

Trapsx 4
3x Reckless Greed
1x Call Of The Haunted
Idk though I guess just part of me still would like to think that there is still at least some skill remaining in this format, even if it is only in the area of deckbuilding...

TheSonicVision · 08-10-2012, 12:56 PM

oh, cool. we're playing "break the format."

great thread topic.

uhm...i think the biggest problem is hand control. if you get hit by just one of sentry, duo, dustshoot, or Confiscation, it can be game over- even for makyura decks.

let's mull over our candidate deck types.

contenders:

chaos spam summon - use the availability of cards like disk commander, Premature Burial and Painful Choice to accelerate an archetype like plant synchro and then save cards like CED and Dark Strike Fighter for a finishing blow. the more broken cards you can splash in, the more you can draw like crazy and ss like crazy. you can throw in all the hand control cards into these kinds of decks. they win by card advantage.

dark world - doesn't lose out immediately to hand control cards, and it has insane draw power. however, it's ability to spam summon and have a felxible side deck is compromised by some necessary support cards. if the opponent's deck is broken enough, he can make a comeback.

exodia - it's already pretty good in advanced. splash in some more draw cards and it's a serious threat.

makyura - it needs a few set-up pieces to get going, but it may be the hardest strategy to stop.

i agree that a deck that can easily ss LADD and maybe even in throw in herald of green/purple (perhaps in the side) would be a good defensive idea. however, it seems like you would have to sacrifice some really powerful cards to make a nice 40-card deck.

i'm biased, but i think i'd go for a consistent spam summon deck that one can splash in (and side in) some defensive cards to take care of cheap combo strategies. perhaps it should be able to easily ss Naturia Beast as well (striker + Dandylion) ?

psychics have 2 x e. tele. you can search out a lvl 2 or 3 earth tuner immediately and find a way to bring out Naturia Beast. Last Will helps with this endeavor as well.

cards that ruin combo decks: CED, the hand control suite, Naturia Beast, Imperial Order, droll and lock birds, Neko Mane King, Gemini Imps, Card Destruction, and others.

so, with a little bit of thought put into the side deck, and with probability by your side, i'd recommend going away from makyura/exodia in a competitive 2/3 duel environment with several rounds of play. however, a slow chaos deck (i.e. the first deck a seasoned advanced player makes when feeling out traditional) will not suffice. you need ot make sure you can explode very, very quickly.

vote: chaos spam summon with flexible side deck

T.G. Striker · 08-10-2012, 02:49 PM

Anything that slows it down, LaDD CCV would be my bet of u cld slow it down enough disrupting OTKs

TheSonicVision · 08-10-2012, 05:39 PM

http://traditionalformatacademy.blog...-canberra.html

^ here you can see the decklists from a traditional format tournament (in australia?). notice the style of the decks that came up on top.

Shaxa · 08-11-2012, 02:42 PM

Yeah usually a good placed hand trap is enough in game 1 to seal a victory. The best deck per say along the lines of what your talking about prolly uses Veiler, Droll&Lock Bird. Something else it can normal summon for the win, and solid stoppers like MST since I.O exist here.

TheSonicVision · 08-11-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaxa

...and solid stoppers like MST since I.O exist here.

^ THAT'S WHY so many of them mained MST; it's to chain to Imperial Order. i was so confused.

Jamie_Alexander · 08-14-2012, 08:00 PM

This is always an interesting topic, and one that I'm not really sure there's a definite answer to. I've been playing in, studying and documenting competative Traditional Format for the better part of four years now, and it would come as a natural idea that said occupations should have some form of conclusion - that is, a statement to the like of, "After all of my research, it is obvious that X deck is undoubtedly the best deck in the format". Traditional is so much more varied than Advanced that I think it's impossible to say anything remotely close to this.

For my general opinion, however, I think it is easy for me to say that a battle-based strategy is superior to an FTK. The fact that an FTK which has its combo stopped is a proverbial sitting duck, its pilot sitting back in his or her chair while the opponent goes nuts and takes game, draws me to this judgment; since the battle-based strategy can not only claim victory with the speed necessary to outrun both a prevented or stalled FTK, as well as any other battle-based deck, in addition to the fact that it has the ablity to Side Deck with amazing variability and consistency (far, far more so than the FTK), makes it the top contender in my eyes.

As for what the best battle-based deck in the format is, I have no idea. I've always focused on creating the best decks I possibly can through research, testing, more research, more testing, and so on (for weeks on end), taking then the absolute best of the best to tournaments (and either winning them, or placing very highly in them), and yet each one has something the previous lacked, and each one is as viable as the last.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSonicVision

http://traditionalformatacademy.blog...-canberra.html

^ here you can see the decklists from a traditional format tournament (in australia?). notice the style of the decks that came up on top.

You are correct: this tournament was in Australia. I have another one coming up this Sunday, so I'll have another set of results to post (and even more data to put into the already immensely complicated system).

-Jamie

magic · 08-14-2012, 09:08 PM

If yer not FTK'ing then you will lose against someone that is.

On turn 1.

Next.

TheSonicVision · 08-14-2012, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie_Alexander

-Jamie

^ this is weird. are you prompted when someone links to your site, or is this just a coincidence, considering that the majority of tech-savvy yu-gi-oh! players frequent boards such as this?

Quote:

As for what the best battle-based deck in the format is, I have no idea. I've always focused on creating the best decks I possibly can[...]each one has something the previous lacked, and each one is as viable as the last.

^ i concur. while playing online, i will occasionally come across a new, powerful and incredibly cheap strategy that i will then try to incorporate into my own traditional deck. after putting all the broken, mandatory staples into a deck, i find that i simply never have enough room to create an "omni-deck." i've been very happy with my chaos plant variant because of its great speed and fluidity, but man, i really can't take advantage of a card like Mirage of Nightmare with my current build. also, as you pointed out, even an "inferior" strategy will prevail if the decks' pilot draws reasonably well, thanks to the abundance of sensationally powerful cards in this format. hence, how can one tell what the superior strategy really is if it does not succeed more often than the inferior ones? my current line of thinking is to maximize my draw power. i feel like the only way to get a real advantage is to make sure that i have the higher prob. of drawing powerful staple cards, without sacrificing space for a contrived draw engine that may minimize the effectiveness of my streamlined build.

still, if my opponent goes first and draws forceful sentry, he will most likely win. *sigh*.

Quote:

You are correct: this tournament was in Australia. I have another one coming up this Sunday, so I'll have another set of results to post (and even more data to put into the already immensely complicated system).

^ i'll be looking forward to that.

Jamie_Alexander · 08-15-2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSonicVision

^ this is weird. are you prompted when someone links to your site, or is this just a coincidence, considering that the majority of tech-savvy yu-gi-oh! players frequent boards such as this?

No, no, I've been a member of Pojo for some time now, but I only insert my two cents when something either very interesting or very horrible crops up (there's currently an atrocious anti-Traditional thread in the F&L Forum I also felt like posting on).

On Topic:

As for furthering Ricky Evans' discussion, I want to reiterate that I think there's no one right or wrong answer: I've taken FTKs, OTKs, Control decks, and balanced OTK/Control decks to tournaments over the past few years, and, as aforementioned, have either won or placed very highly with all of them. At the end of the day, It's up to personal preference - what works for you - although I also think that the best way to de well in a format, just as in Advanced, is to assess an event rather than the given format itself - to look at the expected Meta for the tournament and build from there.

The notion that FTKs are the best deck in the format due purely to their consistency is pointless to me, because it makes the assumption that a serious opponent is just going to sit back and let you win. This is never going to happen and, in a tournament with good players, is far too risky.

You have the right idea with the deck you posted, but I would only question how consistent it would be at dropping Light and Darkness Dragon. With no other defensive cards at all (that is, Imperial Order, hand control, etc.), you would want to be able to Summon LaDD on the first turn as often as is possible. At a proper, multi-round tournament, numbers mean everything. Also, without any destruction cards (Raigeki, etc.), a Turn 2 start (assuming you are playing against another battle-based deck) also looks to be difficult to play out of. You might also like to post a Side, otherwise it might be concluded you have no hand Traps whatsoever for the FTK match-up when they play first; it might be a better idea to Main Deck things like Effect Veiler, and the current Advanced Format would certainly suggest this, but I personally prefer to Side all of my hand Traps to give the most consistent Main Deck for a possible first turn start in Game 1 - but again, this is personal preference, and other people prefer to go the other way.

-Jamie

Ricky Evans · 08-19-2012, 11:27 AM

First of all- I love your blog Jamie

Secondly, here's my usual generic Side Deck
3x Herald of Green Light
3x Herald of Orange Light
3x Hanewata
3x Effect Veiler
3x Droll & Lock Bird (i think this card was invented for this format)

Shaxa · 08-19-2012, 12:31 PM

For serious Traditional players, expect Destiny Draw decks to start taking more wins.