A Step In the Right Direction

[DemonGodAsura]

Forbidden:

• Black Luster Soldier – Envoy of the Beginning
• Blackwing – Kalut the Moonshadow
• Exodia the Forbidden One
• Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
• Honest
• Lonefire Blossom
• Mezuki
• Morphing Jar
• Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon
• Rescue Rabbit
• Sangan
• Wind-Up Hunter
  
• Card Destruction
• Chain Strike
• Final Countdown
• Future Fusion
• Gateway of the Six
• Infernity Launcher
• Mind Control
• Miracle Fusion
• Monster Reborn
• Pot of Avarice

Limited

• Dark Magician of Chaos
• Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World
• Inzektor Centipede
• Judgment Dragon
• Magician of Faith
• Master Hyperion
• Tribe-Infecting Virus
• Tsukuyomi
  
• Royal Oppression

Semi-Limited:

• Tour Guide From the Underworld
  
• Book of Moon
  
• Mirror Force

Unlimited:

• Left Arm of the Forbidden One
• Left Leg of the Forbidden One
• Right Arm of the Forbidden One
• Right Leg of the Forbidden One
• Spore
• T.G. Striker
• The Agent of Mystery – Earth

[necropuddi]

Nope .

[Gaspar]

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Forbidden:

• Blackwing – Kalut the Moon shadow
• Exodia the Forbidden One
• Lonefire Blossom
• Rescue Rabbit
• Sangan
  
• Chain Strike
• Final Countdown
• Miracle Fusion

Limited

• Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World
• Inzektor Centipede
  
• Royal Oppression

Semi-Limited:

• Tour Guide From the Underworld
  
• Book of Moon
  
• Mirror Force

Disagreeing with the quote.

[DemonGodAsura]

Originally Posted by Gaspar

Disagreeing with the quote.

Why? For what reason should those changes not occur? Do you like cards that are 1-card, bigger-than-thou monsters (Miracle Fusion, Rabbit, Grapha)? Are you OK with being punished for doing what you're supposed to do (Kalut, Honest, Gorz)? Do you like having access to cards with ridiculous ease (Sangan, Lonefire, Mezuki, Centipede)? Do you like games where one player is rewarded for doing nothing (Final Countdown, Chain Strike)? Do you prefer everyone to be able to Special Summon over 8000 ATK at ease (Oppression)? Wouldn't you like more versatile cards (Book) or more spam control (Mirror)?

[HochDeutsch]

Honestly, this is my kind of list. This is the kind of list I truly wish would happen. Now, having pondered this sort of thing before, I think you might have missed a thing or two (though honestly nothing comes to mind; I'm just assuming there might be something because of the scope of this list), and I think you might have been overly harsh on a thing or two (Rescue Rabbit becomes basically unplayable at 1, because the deck infrastructure needed to play it becomes untenable; it could, however, still hypothetically be used in some sort of actually Normal Monster based deck or a Beast deck or something, and I don't see the point to condemning that); I also think a Sangan ban is an ineffective way to address the Tour Guide issue. Most significantly, though, I disagree with your treatment of some staple Spells and Traps: I think Royal Oppression, Book of Moon, and Mirror Force moving up was a mistake, especially since this a more ideal-style list.

Still, I would be incredibly happy if this list were to be real! It's not perfect, in my opinion, but it's a step so far in the right direction that Konami would have redeemed its honor if it were to do this.

[Chaos3600]

THIS is a great list.

A few minor quirks and misses, but overall, this is truely a step in the right direction.

Royal Oppression is my biggest gripe. Its not an effective counter to derpsummoning; rather, its a lockdown card that nags a +1 and forces the opponent to answer or lose, without risk to the user, AFTER the user has performed his SSing.

[DemonGodAsura]

Originally Posted by HochDeutsch

Honestly, this is my kind of list. This is the kind of list I truly wish would happen. Now, having pondered this sort of thing before, I think you might have missed a thing or two (though honestly nothing comes to mind; I'm just assuming there might be something because of the scope of this list), and I think you might have been overly harsh on a thing or two (Rescue Rabbit becomes basically unplayable at 1, because the deck infrastructure needed to play it becomes untenable; it could, however, still hypothetically be used in some sort of actually Normal Monster based deck or a Beast deck or something, and I don't see the point to condemning that); I also think a Sangan ban is an ineffective way to address the Tour Guide issue. Most significantly, though, I disagree with your treatment of some staple Spells and Traps: I think Royal Oppression, Book of Moon, and Mirror Force moving up was a mistake, especially since this a more ideal-style list.

Still, I would be incredibly happy if this list were to be real! It's not perfect, in my opinion, but it's a step so far in the right direction that Konami would have redeemed its honor if it were to do this.

OK, so let's say we not touch Mirror Force, which is a card that see little-to-no play in favor of Torrential or D-Prison, or Book, or Oppression.

Sangan is NOT a TGU solver. The issue of Sangan is Sangan itself. The way the game is played (generally speaking), you string together combos of small monsters to make bigger monsters, whether via Synchro, Xyz, Fusion, or whatever. Sangan makes all of these monsters accessible. This could be stomached fairly easily, except for one problem: TGU. You can now tutor your tutor. TGU without Sangan is a versatile card that requires a player's skill to play. It presents options: make the wall (Zenmaines), the attacker (Acid Golem), or the wall killer (Temtempo). You can now no longer use TGU to search for Sangan and search your game winning combo. Sangan has been a powerful card for years. As more and more power monsters with small ATK pop up, you'll realize that being able to access ANY of them through TGU/Sangan is silly.

Now, this brings us to the point of TGU. Like Tengu and Malicious, it interacts with itself for powerful plays. If we limit the amount of interactions it can have with itself, we are potentially forced to run cards that are otherwise sub-par in order to use more than 1 TGU (Night Assailant, T-Bus), which, in the hands of a strong Deck builder, can actually be rewarded (Rykos + Night Assailant, or Hamster + Night Assailant).

I see the point on Rabbit, and could be willing to concede that a single copy legal would be enough to prevent it from being a real issue for fair game play.

[Gaspar]

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Why? For what reason should those changes not occur? Do you like cards that are 1-card, bigger-than-thou monsters (Miracle Fusion, Rabbit, Grapha)? Are you OK with being punished for doing what you're supposed to do (Kalut, Honest, Gorz)? Do you like having access to cards with ridiculous ease (Sangan, Lonefire, Mezuki, Centipede)? Do you like games where one player is rewarded for doing nothing (Final Countdown, Chain Strike)? Do you prefer everyone to be able to Special Summon over 8000 ATK at ease (Oppression)? Wouldn't you like more versatile cards (Book) or more spam control (Mirror)?

Do not ever patronize me.
I am overall fine with Miracle Fusion. Maybe it is just me, but if this is some way to preemptively hit Elemental Hero The Shining just hit him. Grapha and Rabbit are both horrible design, but not really Banworthy.
I dislike ATK-boosting Hand Traps and Gorz. But I do not think Kalut is really banworthy. Then again...
I do not really mind Lonefire Blossom, but then again you unbanned Spore, so do whatever. I really do not see the problem with Centipede, other than being able to search Dragonfly which is more problematic than him.
No one would use Royal Oppression to prevent a swarm. It would be used to swarm AND THEN lock-down to prevent reversals. Therefore, Imperial Order 2.0 that does not work in the Damage Step.
I really do not see the problem with Final Countdown and Chain Burn.
Complaining about me disagreeing with banning Sangan while leaving TGU at 2 just to let her be a 1-card Xyz in every single deck is hilariously ironic.
Book of Moon to 2 would be fine if the format slowed down enough.
Mirror Force is not spam control. It is fine at 1.

[Byak]

I think Sangan is still fair at one, because like you said, if Tour Guide is semilimited, you have to play additional targets if you want to be able to go Tour Guide into Sangan without leaving your other copy dead. You also removed a few Sangan targets that can do a lot of stuff on their own anyway.

I would also rather ban Hornet instead of limiting Centipede. While limiting Centipede creates a fair balance for the deck, the playstyle with Hornet is better off not existing because Hornet itself influences various deck choices, as we've seen in this format.

Also, I'd argue that Leviair should be banned and as a result, Rescue Rabbit should be unbanned into any number, preferably 1 or 2.

Additionally, what are your thoughts on cards that could see less banlist attention, like Gale, Tsukuyomi, etc?

@Gaspar even if Dragonfly is more problematic, there's the issue that Inzektors possess a variety of cards that can recycle Dragonfly, and those cards are searchable by Centipede. If I go Dragonfly -> Centipede -> add Sword, I have little to no problems with not having anymore Dragonflies in my deck.

[Gaspar]

I see. Thanks for explaining it.

[Black Adam]

some one lost to dw

[Barrel Dragon_080]

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Forbidden:

• Blackwing – Kalut the Moonshadow
• Exodia the Forbidden One
• Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
• Honest
• Lonefire Blossom
• Mezuki
• Morphing Jar
  

• *snicker*
  

  Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

  Card Destruction

  Chain Strike

  Final Countdown

  Infernity Launcher

  Miracle Fusion

*snicker*....hmm..heh...heh..

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Limited

• Dark Magician of Chaos
• Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World
• Magician of Faith
• Tribe-Infecting Virus
• Tsukuyomi

hmmm...heh.heh...HA HA HA HA!!!!

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Unlimited:

• Left Arm of the Forbidden One
• Left Leg of the Forbidden One
• Right Arm of the Forbidden One
• Right Leg of the Forbidden One
• The Agent of Mystery – Earth

HA...HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! OH HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Hee hee...oh, oh tell me...this is a joke right?

Why on earth would you consider this a fair list? This is the furthest thing from a step in the right direction. Why in the world would you consider Mezuki, Lonefire, Morphing Jar, or Exodia ban worthy? Or Final Countdown or Infernity Launcher?

Your limited list is pretty off the wall too (but then that doesn't surprise me too much as it coincides with most of the people on Pojo that for some unknown reason feel that DMoC and MoF would be safe if there was no Monster Reborn)...or consequently that Tsukuyomi is somehow not broken because MoF isn't legal

I'm not saying ALL of your hits are poor choices but a good chunk of them are...but hey, thanks for the laughs...they were great.

[HochDeutsch]

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

OK, so let's say we not touch Mirror Force, which is a card that see little-to-no play in favor of Torrential or D-Prison, or Book, or Oppression.

Eh? I'm confused about what you mean here? All I was trying to say was that, you did a lot of good stuff with your list in general, but there is a huge problem in the game right now in terms of generic backrow. Even with Heavy Storm and 3 MST, stally defensive Traps are a powerful force - so powerful that you saw fit to get rid of Final Countdown, Exodia, and Chain Strike, for example. I think TT needs to move back down to 1, that Mirror Force and Book of Moon should stay at 1, and that Oppression should not come up.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Sangan is a versatile card that requires a player's skill to play. It presents options: make the wall (Zenmaines), the attacker (Acid Golem), or the wall killer (Temtempo). You can now no longer use TGU to search for Sangan and search your game winning combo. Sangan has been a powerful card for years. As more and more power monsters with small ATK pop up, you'll realize that being able to access ANY of them through TGU/Sangan is silly.

But Sangan's complete crap and nobody was running him in any decks until Tour Guide came out. Obviously his blanket search power is quite powerful, and nobody would say he was bad, or even that he should move up... but I remember shortly before Tour Guide was released people were saying Sangan could, in fact, move up - he was outdated and old news. It's literally only Tour Guide making him viable. And no, Tour Guide is not a versatile card that requires a player's skill to play. There's a reason every idiot and his mother slaps the playset in their deck... and Tour Guide-ing into Sangan doesn't even give you Sangan's effect if you make an Xyz... even with Sangan banned the same decks would run their 3 Tour Guides, and maybe a bus or something to fill in for the little critter.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Now, this brings us to the point of TGU. Like Tengu and Malicious, it interacts with itself for powerful plays. If we limit the amount of interactions it can have with itself, we are potentially forced to run cards that are otherwise sub-par in order to use more than 1 TGU (Night Assailant, T-Bus), which, in the hands of a strong Deck builder, can actually be rewarded (Rykos + Night Assailant, or Hamster + Night Assailant).

You are completely correct. At 2, Tour Guide is, as you said, a fairly balanced (if excellent) card - you need to devote some deckspace to sub-par cards like Tour Bus to have it run smoothly. I do think a Tour Guide semi is a perfectly valid hit. I'm not questioning that. I'm only trying to argue here that Sangan is not a problem in the slightest bit and that your mind is being warped by its Tour Guide induced prevalence as of late.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

I see the point on Rabbit, and could be willing to concede that a single copy legal would be enough to prevent it from being a real issue for fair game play.

Ay. No more Dino Rabbit, unless you want the consistency of a wet sock, but some inventive players will still be able to find nifty uses for the card. I totally think an Enchanted Fitting Room / Level 3 vanillas deck with Rescue Rabbit would be boss, and a Beast deck with Beast vanillas (or maybe Beast / Beast-Warrior, where you could run Gene-Warped)... there's a lot of nifty decks where Rescue Rabbit would help but not break.

[Suibon]

Asura:

1. Miracle Fusion is one of those monsters that seem broken; you lose exactly nothing to summon Fusions of a specific archetype with liberalized Fusion Materials (which I happen to think is a step in the right direction if Fusions are to ever get away from the ill design of yesteryears). But bear in mind what you usually summon this card, the Fusion-Material being banished by Miracle Fusion's effect, and the ways they get to the Grave for future fodder. You cannot get as complete a picture of Miracle Fusion if you do not factor these in your observation.

2. I do not see any difference at all between Rescue Rabbit and Tour Guide From the Underworld. Both are 1-card Exceeds, both require you to run sub-par Exceed fodder. Thus both of them must in the same place on the list as the other.

3. Banning REDMD before Future Fusion just feels wrong. One is problematically designed but not neccesarily so without a fattened Graveyard so early on; the other is problematically designed, leads to a huge Fusion when uncountered, and fattens up that Graveyard for future use. I say it's a no-brainer.

4. The problem surrounding Pot of Avarice has been so obscured by now by the rise and fall of Plants, followed by the rise or Exceeds, that people think it's easier to ban it than examine what the problem actually is. Heck, at this point, I'm almost ready to give up and mechanically move my mouth in sync with the mass, just because this is so confusing.

But I'm not convinced Pot of Avarice is the problem here.

5. Banning Centipede means no Exceed spamming and pointless Hornet pops; banning Hornet means viable but not uncountered Exceed spamming. I'll let you decide on which is more valuable, as my old head dislikes both the popping and the spamming.

6. And this is where I know you're an old head like me: you limit Grapha and Hyperion, if for the wrong and innately culturally biased reasons. No harm in that, though.

7. Does anyone remember what Atem said about Oppression? I can't remember, and I hate making mistakes.

[DemonGodAsura]

Originally Posted by Barrel Dragon_080

*snicker*
Why in the world would you consider Mezuki, Lonefire, Morphing Jar, or Exodia ban worthy? Or Final Countdown or Infernity Launcher?

I'll start here. You do realize that Lonefire Blossom is one of the best tutors in the game, right? Prior to the massacre of Plants, it could automatically summon Dandylion, Spore, Glow-Up Bulb, or even Tytannial. The fact that it tutors these to the field, getting around the Tribute Summon restriction of some monsters, or getting the proper Tuner for your field or Graveyard, is a very powerful asset to have.

Mezuki is a card that is extremely poor in design. It allows you to use monsters in the Graveyard at no Cost. Being able to use something like Plaguespreader Zombie multiple times before it succumbs to its designed "drawback" is ridiculous. Now you extend that to any Zombie monster, regardless of Level or ATK, it functions like a themed Reborn that can be used to fulfill other effects/costs first.

Morphing Jar is almost completely indefensible. The ability to Set it and all your cards, then flip it and wipe out your opponent's hand is powerful, but when a Deck that is completely solitaire in play style revolves around this single card comes around, it is unfair, and often difficult to stop. Not to mention how powerful it is in Dark World or Fabled Decks, triggering all effects and giving you a new hand.

Exodia and Final Countdown are lumped into the same group. On their own, they're OK cards. The problem has come from a plethora of stall cards which reward the player for doing nothing. These are solitaire style Decks, and are also extremely not fun to play against.

Infernity Launcher is a card similar to Reborn, however, it is themed. Again, the problem comes from "I drew this, I can win because I drew this". If you've ever played with or against Infernity, you know that this card is ridiculous. There really is no defending this card either.

Originally Posted by Barrel Dragon_080

Your limited list is pretty off the wall too (but then that doesn't surprise me too much as it coincides with most of the people on Pojo that for some unknown reason feel that DMoC and MoF would be safe if there was no Monster Reborn)...or consequently that Tsukuyomi is somehow not broken because MoF isn't legal

Cards like Judgment Dragon, Hyperion, and Grapha do not deserve to run amok, regardless of whether you've knocked the foundation from their spire. Hyperion is similar to Dark Armed Dragon, a card commonly desired to be banned. Now, you get to run this card in 3s. It also doesn't require a specific Attribute count to be summoned. Judgment Dragon could even be banned with little argument. DMoC seems to be one of the most overrated cards people talk about. Remove Reborn and how exactly are you going to Special Summon it from the Graveyard? Call Of The Haunted? What are you going to target with the effect? MST? Storm? Hole? The available worthwhile targets and methods of summoning are extremely lack luster. Magician of Faith follows the same logic. Are you going to Storm, then Set MoF to get Storm back? Are you going to Dark Hole, then follow up with Setting MoF to get your Hole back? Tsuk is a good card, yes, but what can you abuse with it? MoF to get endless MST/Storm? Constantly run over the monsters that batter you in the face when Tsuk returns to your hand? Of course, some of these changes would require thorough testing to see if they could work.

Originally Posted by Suibon

Asura:

1. Miracle Fusion is one of those monsters that seem broken; you lose exactly nothing to summon Fusions of a specific archetype with liberalized Fusion Materials (which I happen to think is a step in the right direction if Fusions are to ever get away from the ill design of yesteryears). But bear in mind what you usually summon this card, the Fusion-Material being banished by Miracle Fusion's effect, and the ways they get to the Grave for future fodder. You cannot get as complete a picture of Miracle Fusion if you do not factor these in your observation.

I see your point, however, the monsters you use for the Fusion Summon are generally in the Graveyard, having already fulfilled other purposes, whether destroying monsters via battle or being used to activate cards such as Gemini Spark. When the "cost" of a card isn't really a cost, then there's a problem. When the card it summons is a 2500 ATK, minimum, floater, for little-to-no-cost, then there's a problem.

Originally Posted by Suibon

2. I do not see any difference at all between Rescue Rabbit and Tour Guide From the Underworld. Both are 1-card Exceeds, both require you to run sub-par Exceed fodder. Thus both of them must in the same place on the list as the other.

Rabbit summoning monsters that teeter on the border of being win conditions, then there's a disparity between the cards. It's rare that a R3 can be a win condition, but I guess not out of the realm of possibility. Right now, no such Xyz exists. All we have are really good (including 1 likely too good, Zenmaines) R3 Xyz Monsters.

Originally Posted by Suibon

3. Banning REDMD before Future Fusion just feels wrong. One is problematically designed but not neccesarily so without a fattened Graveyard so early on; the other is problematically designed, leads to a huge Fusion when uncountered, and fattens up that Graveyard for future use. I say it's a no-brainer.

Both are completely unfair cards. Future Fusion has become like Painful Choice for the Decks that can support it. Unchecked, it even drops a monster to the field. REDMD, on the other hand, is 2800 ATK that can easily be summoned, and summons another high ATK monster alongside it, most likely Lightpulsar, which can help keep REDMD on the board. Neither really has a place in the game. Easy to summon, high ATK monsters, with powerful effects are ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Suibon

4. The problem surrounding Pot of Avarice has been so obscured by now by the rise and fall of Plants, followed by the rise or Exceeds, that people think it's easier to ban it than examine what the problem actually is. Heck, at this point, I'm almost ready to give up and mechanically move my mouth in sync with the mass, just because this is so confusing.

But I'm not convinced Pot of Avarice is the problem here.

Avarice is a ridiculous card no matter how you look at it. When we can return monsters back to the Extra Deck to lessen the cards returned to the Deck, we are then able to draw 2 cards, and re-access cards that we were previously unable to access. The card is live the moment that 5 monsters hit the graveyard. It was probably inevitable that filling the graveyard with 5 monsters would be an easy chore, so I won't lay the blame of Avarice at the foot of the power creep.

Originally Posted by Suibon

5. Banning Centipede means no Exceed spamming and pointless Hornet pops; banning Hornet means viable but not uncountered Exceed spamming. I'll let you decide on which is more valuable, as my old head dislikes both the popping and the spamming.

Inzektors are a hard issue to handle. Jeff Jones outlined on another forum how you can handle them, and how each choice would affect the Deck. Hitting Hornet gives you an Xyz spam Deck, which I wouldn't be opposed to, as you can much more easily counter a turn-after-turn stream of single monsters than you could your opponent blowing up 2 of your cards and then proceeding to potentially drop 8000 damage on the board. Hitting Dragonfly completely kills the Deck. Hitting Centipede makes them inconsistent, but not unplayable.

I've also rethought Oppression. For whatever reason, every time I think of it, I think of a floodgate card, however, I know better than that.

That said, let's revise the list:

Forbidden:

• Black Luster Soldier – Envoy of the Beginning
• Blackwing – Kalut the Moonshadow
• Exodia the Forbidden One
• Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
• Honest
• Lonefire Blossom
• Mezuki
• Morphing Jar
• Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon
• Sangan
• Wind-Up Hunter
  
• Card Destruction
• Chain Strike
• Final Countdown
• Future Fusion
• Gateway of the Six
• Infernity Launcher
• Mind Control
• Miracle Fusion
• Monster Reborn
• Pot of Avarice

Limited

• Dark Magician of Chaos
• Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World
• Inzektor Centipede
• Judgment Dragon
• Magician of Faith
• Master Hyperion
• Rescue Rabbit
• Tribe-Infecting Virus
• Tsukuyomi

Semi-Limited:

• Tour Guide From the Underworld

Unlimited:

• Left Arm of the Forbidden One
• Left Leg of the Forbidden One
• Right Arm of the Forbidden One
• Right Leg of the Forbidden One
• Spore
• T.G. Striker
• The Agent of Mystery – Earth

[WeiWei]

How about cards like Gem-Merchant?

[HochDeutsch]

Originally Posted by Suibon

I do not see any difference at all between Rescue Rabbit and Tour Guide From the Underworld. Both are 1-card Exceeds, both require you to run sub-par Exceed fodder. Thus both of them must in the same place on the list as the other.

This is not a fair assessment, Suibon. A DARK Fiend is infinitely more useful in principle than an EARTH Beast, and the things Tour Guide grabs are infinitely more playable than what Rescue Rabbit grabs (the sub-par Exceed fodder, that is); Rescue Rabbit also has the nifty banished recursion with Leviair, and of course Tour Guide only makes generic Rank 3 Xyz whereas Rescue Rabbit makes Xyz of any level, generic or not. There are substantial differences between the two cards that necessitate them being considered separately, not as one card.

[Serotonin]

Dragonfly should still be what is limited.

Just like in GB just because every GB searches Bestiari or like every TG monster searches Striker, You still limit the card that is most problematic.

[Chaos3600]

I am glad you rethought Royal Oppression. Your format will thank you if you ever decided to test it, assuming you already haven't

That said, here are a few things that I don't believe were touched opon yet:

Judgment Dragon is a card that I feel should get a harsher punishment than a simple limit. Its a card that has no summoning cost, no real risk in playing it, 3000 ATK points, and the ability to nuke everything except for itself. Its a classic example of a boss monster that swings the game far too effortlessly with no risk and provides sacky wins, even when the user isn't in a winning position anyways. Its poorly designed, and should be killed.

Dark Armed Dragon falls into that same boat.

[david0925]

sometimes people should stick to Chess. No, I'm not making fun of the game or the OP, but the OP seems to want to have complete board information (other card games don't even need to have set M/Ts) and get rid of anything with potentially high rewards, so might as well go one step further.

[Gaspar]

Originally Posted by Barrel Dragon_080

Why on earth would you consider this a fair list? This is the furthest thing from a step in the right direction. Why in the world would you consider Mezuki, Lonefire, Morphing Jar, or Exodia ban worthy? Or Final Countdown or Infernity Launcher?

Your limited list is pretty off the wall too (but then that doesn't surprise me too much as it coincides with most of the people on Pojo that for some unknown reason feel that DMoC and MoF would be safe if there was no Monster Reborn)...or consequently that Tsukuyomi is somehow not broken because MoF isn't legal

Okay mister demonization, tell me why Tsukuyomi should stay banned and why Magician of Faith and Dark Magician of Chaos cannot be unbanned.

Originally Posted by david0925

sometimes people should stick to Chess. No, I'm not making fun of the game or the OP, but the OP seems to want to have complete board information (other card games don't even need to have set M/Ts) and get rid of anything with potentially high rewards, so might as well go one step further.

I went from chess to Yu-Gi-Oh. I am wondering if I made a(nother) mistake.

[DemonGodAsura]

Originally Posted by david0925

sometimes people should stick to Chess. No, I'm not making fun of the game or the OP, but the OP seems to want to have complete board information (other card games don't even need to have set M/Ts) and get rid of anything with potentially high rewards, so might as well go one step further.

Any rewards a player should attain should come from their play, not "I drew X card, therefore I win", such as Judgment Dragon, Black Luster Soldier, etc. Set cards are fine, and there's generally nothing wrong with most Spell/Trap Cards. The ones with issue are the ones that reward a player for doing nothing or punish a player for playing the game. Let's say we add a rule to Chess: Every third piece you take, also causes you to lose your most powerful remaining piece. This is somewhat how cards like Honest, Kalut, and Gorz work. Monsters are destroyed through battle, and damage is inflicted by attacking opponent's directly (though, effect damage is another option), and when the game is based largely on these 2 things occurring, you shouldn't be punished for doing what you're supposed to do. As such, cards like Battle Fader are perfect hand "traps". Low stats, prevents your opponent from inflicting damage, ends the Battle Phase. Unlike Gorz, you don't get the ATK value you took and another 2700 ATK. Tragoedia is a card that is similar to Gorz, but won't win you games on his own. His ATK value is tied to the cards in your hand, which means that in order to maintain a high ATK value, you can't commit many cards. This also makes it a very poor late-game card, as the number of cards you've conserved are very low.

[Rob_Lucci_CP8]

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Forbidden:

• Black Luster Soldier – Envoy of the Beginning
• Blackwing – Kalut the Moonshadow
• Exodia the Forbidden One
• Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
• Honest
• Lonefire Blossom
• Mezuki
• Morphing Jar
• Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon
• Rescue Rabbit
• Sangan
• Wind-Up Hunter

I haven't been around in a couple of months, so I'm not going to say anything on REDMD or FF relative to what I've heard about Chaos Dragons. For one, Exodia's ban is not necessary and I don't see the purpose in gutting Alt. Win condition decks when they top all of once every YCS. They are harmless to the metagame as a whole and have no true sway on it.

Mezuki ban is not necessary. What has it or Zombies done in the past two years? Nothing. They died with the March 2010 list a loooong time ago and even a new swing of Zombies for Xyzs is not going to warrant a Mezuki ban.

Lonefire/Kalut are beating dead horses. Plants where overhit to start with. You put Spore to three, that's all that shpould be done. Bulb/Trish banned solved the problem.

As for BWs, I see nothing but poor foresight. First, Book of Moon is the deck killer for BWs. They get wrecked by BoM and are already only semi competitive the most experienced of BW players. Honest ban is also totally unnecessary, but slightly more understandable since LIGHT does often get support.

Banning Rabbit is looking in a very wrong direction. I have argued this for the longest time that TGU is the primary reason the deck functions which is through giving it consistency/options and providing it with Leviair. A TGU limit is necessary and a Rabbit hit is not.

FYI, yes, the deck is popular in TGU-less OCGland, but this is because Evilswarm/Verz provide a perfect engine for Rabbit to use in that specific Meta where hero, Laval, and Hieroglyph all autolose to Ophion. Even then, you never see the deck top because Inzekt destroys that variant.

Jar is....wut. I can understand EJ hate, and I really would love to see the deck burn, but there's no logical conclusion for it to be hit as such. It is not commonly played nor is it metagame relevant.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

• Card Destruction
• Chain Strike
• Final Countdown
• Future Fusion
• Gateway of the Six
• Infernity Launcher
• Mind Control
• Miracle Fusion
• Monster Reborn
• Pot of Avarice

I agree with Reborn, Control, and Avarice. I think a Card Destruction ban is pointless if you're also banning MJ as its only purpose beyond aiding DWs in a very inconsistently run fashion is too aid Empty Jar. It's sacky in DWs if the hand is right, but it's just as easily a dead-in-hand card.

Launcher ban is silly when Infernities are only on the threshold of competitiveness. Final Countdown and Chain Strike being Alt Win conditions and topping once or so every YCS do not warrant bans and they are not consistent issue decks.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Limited

• Dark Magician of Chaos
• Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World
• Inzektor Centipede
• Judgment Dragon
• Magician of Faith
• Master Hyperion
• Tribe-Infecting Virus
• Tsukuyomi

TGU limit makes Agents receiving any hits unnecessary. The deck wasn't even an issue until TGU/BLS made in Chaos 2.0 and gave it such good Xyz usage when they already had Venus, though in hindsight I would agree Hyperion would be an ideal hit if anything, but it's not needed and Agents can be free of the banlist.

Dark Worlds have managed to win one YCS and present no consistent amount of tops because the deck is very easily countered by side decking/ready opponents. I really fall in linre with the "Use the side deck" comment when DWs are hit: they are hard to beat G1 and with heroes, but they get destroyed by siding. Grapha as a designed card is godawful, but it simply has done nothing to get hit. Konami at least took initiative with Poseidra and Lightpulsar for better boss design, though even Lightpulsar is a bit ****ed with REDMD.

JD is a can of Lightsworn debate, but to avoid that, the LS deck as a whole has not managed anything and is still terrible.

Limit Dragonfly. IDK how much TCG effect the deck has had since early May, but for the sake of the OCG it should be limited vs. Centipede as it is what actually causes the spam and drops Centipede to start with.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

• Royal Oppression

I'd say this depends entirely on the format.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Semi-Limited:

• Tour Guide From the Underworld
  
• Book of Moon
  
• Mirror Force

Limit TGU. Otherwise, I agree with MF/BoM in general and I agree with MF in the context of this list.

Originally Posted by DemonGodAsura

Unlimited:

• Left Arm of the Forbidden One
• Left Leg of the Forbidden One
• Right Arm of the Forbidden One
• Right Leg of the Forbidden One
• Spore
• T.G. Striker
• The Agent of Mystery – Earth

The Limbs can be unlimited anyway since Exodia decks would stick to one set in general on the basis that a second set would inevitably clog more often than not: The goal of Exodia is to make your deck theoretically as small as possible by using Upstart/Truce/Void/etc and grind through it all quickly/efficiently. Multiple sets of limbs set up dead draws.

The latter three are all fine unlimited and none of them should've ever been touched in the first place.

To start with, though, I don't like this list as I don't follow the same system: I typically do not want to hit cards that have had no major impact in the metagame. Part of what depends on design being relative to a card's place on the banlist should be that card's design relative to the deck and other cards in the deck: Rabbit is an example that I noted.

Some cards can be so horribly designed (HI SUBBY) that they deserve a hit becausr they present a massive future threat, but neither Grapha nor Rabbit to me are examples of this. There's very little DWs can get that would make them broken without the card that made them broken being broken itself and Grapha/DW deck in general have a relationship which makes Grapha the heart of the deck and where the rest of the deck is virtually useless without it.

Rabbit because as I stated its abuse that makes it so threatening using the form of Dolkka/Laggia is Leviair which is made playable outside of Inzekters via Tour Guide which has done nothing but promote one card Xyzs, but TGU does it in less space and doesn't need a system with drawbacks like Rabbit does.