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Old 05-28-2009, 10:20 PM   #1
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Default Timing Threatening Roar

ok, if my opponent declares an attack and i activate threatening roar, it doesn't stop the first attack.

so, when do i activate threatening roar so i can stop the onslaught of monsters so that not even one attack will get through?
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:21 PM   #2
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Activating it before the Battle Phase is the only way.

Any time from the Draw Phase to the end of Main Phase 1 will do.

Just tell your opponent that, before moving into the Battle Phase, you will activate Threatening Roar.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:28 PM   #3
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Ness FTW on this one.

If they go from main phase and just attack, you have to tell them to hold up and that you wish to activate TR at the end of their main phase. If they have a problem with it, then just let them know that, according to the rules, they are supposed to be announcing their pahses anyway.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ness00 View Post
Activating it before the Battle Phase is the only way.

Any time from the Draw Phase to the end of Main Phase 1 will do.

Just tell your opponent that, before moving into the Battle Phase, you will activate Threatening Roar.
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Ness FTW on this one.

If they go from main phase and just attack, you have to tell them to hold up and that you wish to activate TR at the end of their main phase. If they have a problem with it, then just let them know that, according to the rules, they are supposed to be announcing their pahses anyway.

Yes, exactly. That ruling is why I never wanted to use Threatening Roar. But the rules made me want to use it again.
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:06 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ness00 View Post
Activating it before the Battle Phase is the only way.

Any time from the Draw Phase to the end of Main Phase 1 will do.

Just tell your opponent that, before moving into the Battle Phase, you will activate Threatening Roar.
actually you can also activate "Threatening Roar" at the 'start' step of the Battle Phase...
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:52 AM   #6
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You can't. Opponent has priority to declare an attack first.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:47 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by SkullBuster View Post
You can't. Opponent has priority to declare an attack first.

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.p...18&postcount=5


Actually turn player can do all this too, but yeah.

Start

* Turn player declares that he/she is entering the Battle Phase.

* Turn player has the priority to play or activate a Spell Speed 2 effect or card at the start of Battle Phase.

Decide if conducting battle. Note entering Battle Phase doesn't meansyou have to declare attacks. If you do not, go straight to End of BattlePhase

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http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread...reatening+Roar

I forgot there was a long drawn out discussion to this card to. Very interesting.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:45 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SkullBuster View Post
You can't. Opponent has priority to declare an attack first.
This is a misconception, along with another misconception in this thread.

At the start of the Battle Phase is the "Start Step" of the battle phase in which both players can activate spell speed 2 & higher effects before moving into the battle step. We know that technicaly play cannot move forward to the next step / phase unless both players agree to do so. The turn player cannot move from Main Phase 1 directly to the Battle Step of the Battle Phase, if they're going to enter the Battle Phase they must first enter the Start Step of the Battle Phase before entering the Battle Step of the Battle Phase.....thereby giving the non-turn player an opportunity to activate Threatening Roar in the Battle Phase (Start Step) before the turn player can declare an attack in the Battle Phase (Battle Step)

With that having been said and hopefully cleared up, I'd like to address the other misconception, that of......

"If they go from main phase and just attack, you have to tell them to hold up and that you wish to activate TR at the end of their main phase. If they have a problem with it, then just let them know that, according to the rules, they are supposed to be announcing their pahses anyway."

Well, the above quote might or might not get you anywhere depending on a couple of factors if a judge is called and depending on how well seasoned the judge is.

The big factor is, have both players been using the accepted shortcut of not declaring their steps / phases?

The well seasoned and well informed judge has been instructed, as we've discussed on multiple threads recently that, "If neither player is announcing the steps / phases, it becomes the responsability of the controler of an effect to communicate their desire to use it at the proper time."

What that means is that if both players have decided to use accepted shortcuts, another form of organization needs to be assumed in order to keep the game in check. A well seasoned judge isn't going to let players using accepted shortcuts use those shortcuts as a way to gain an unfair advantage. By waiting until a player attacks and then using the excuse that, "You didn't announce your phases" in a game in which steps and phases haven't been announced previously, the player is using an accepted shortcut by both players as a means to gain information they wouldn't have had otherwise as well as a means of changing when Threatening Roar can be activated to prevent an attack....that's gaining an unfair advantage. A well seasoned judge is going to allow that particular attack to go through, Threatening Roar to prevent any further attacks, and advise the controler of Threatening Roar to either ask their opponent to declare their battle phase in the future or inform their opponent they have a card effect they'd like to activate before moving into the battle step.

Since very few players understand this concept you usually won't see a judge bringing in the HJ on such a situation, however, if a player repeatedly attempts this scenario after a judge explains this to them it's certainly possible that the HJ may view it as Unsporting Conduct-Cheating (Disqualfication w/o prize)

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Old 05-29-2009, 06:54 AM   #9
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Oh okay then. XD

Kinda forgot that Start Step and Battle Step are different points in time...
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:11 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by SkullBuster View Post
Oh okay then. XD

Kinda forgot that Start Step and Battle Step are different points in time...
No worries! Most people do. You know I find myself needing to refamiliarize myself with the basic rulebook now and again <soft chuckle> Sometimes we get so wrapped up in all the fine details of rulings that we can't see the forest through the trees....happens to me all the time at work and every once in a while in this game too!
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:32 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by John Danker View Post
we can't see the forest through the trees....happens to me all the time at work and every once in a while in this game too!
Umphh. That's a bad joke for someone who specializes in making masterpieces out of lumber.

Enjoy
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:53 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by John Danker View Post
The turn player cannot move from Main Phase 2 directly to the Battle Step of the Battle Phase
Umm, John.... Main Phase 1?
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Robert Wakeland View Post
Umm, John.... Main Phase 1?
Thanks Robert, corrected in my post. <taking another slug of Dt. Mt. Dew> Early AM isn't a good time for me.

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Umphh. That's a bad joke for someone who specializes in making masterpieces out of lumber.

Enjoy
It's not all that hard, all you have to do is make smaller pieces of wood out of bigger pieces of wood....anyone can do that <s>

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Old 05-29-2009, 08:07 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by John Danker View Post
What that means is that if both players have decided to use accepted shortcuts, another form of organization needs to be assumed in order to keep the game in check. A well seasoned judge isn't going to let players using accepted shortcuts use those shortcuts as a way to gain an unfair advantage. By waiting until a player attacks and then using the excuse that, "You didn't announce your phases" in a game in which steps and phases haven't been announced previously, the player is using an accepted shortcut by both players as a means to gain information they wouldn't have had otherwise as well as a means of changing when Threatening Roar can be activated to prevent an attack....that's gaining an unfair advantage. A well seasoned judge is going to allow that particular attack to go through, Threatening Roar to prevent any further attacks, and advise the controler of Threatening Roar to either ask their opponent to declare their battle phase in the future or inform their opponent they have a card effect they'd like to activate before moving into the battle step.
In my opinion it's not as straight forward as this. I think it all comes down to what the judge decides to rule at the time. In some cases (assuming "shortcuts" are being used by both players) one player waiting until the other has declaired their attack to activate Threatening Roar could be seen as trying to gain information they would not have had otherwise (this I agree with), however on the other hand if you suddenly ask the opponent to declaire their phases after setting a Spell or Trap on your last turn or announce to them during their main phase that you have a card you will wish to activate before they move to their battle phase then the opponent is also gaining information that they would not otherwise not have had.

Any time that I'm judging and this kind of dispute occurs i will ask both players to show me what happened without explaining specifics to determine the pace at which they were playing. The pace players are playing at usually determines when a player should have announced a card activation and wether or not they took too long and activated the card at in inapropriate time.

For these kinds of disputes there's never really anything set in stone to go by when judging, you just have to make a call there and then.
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by John Danker View Post
Thanks Robert, corrected in my post. <taking another slug of Dt. Mt. Dew> Early AM isn't a good time for me.

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It's not all that hard, all you have to do is make smaller pieces of wood out of bigger pieces of wood....anyone can do that <s>

Neither is Dt. Mountain Dew.

Ok now I have a question since I don't think this was brought up my opponent plays say umm...econ (use your imagination) in start step, and I respond with Threatening Roar in start step? What happens?


I just keep reading turn player has priority to attack first or whatever, but I don't think I read about responding to chains turn player has made in start step.
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Kyo View Post
Neither is Dt. Mountain Dew.

Ok now I have a question since I don't think this was brought up my opponent plays say umm...econ (use your imagination) in start step, and I respond with Threatening Roar in start step? What happens?


I just keep reading turn player has priority to attack first or whatever, but I don't think I read about responding to chains turn player has made in start step.
It was already mentioned by John that the Turn Player does not has priority to declare an attack when entering the Battle Phase, after all the attack is declared during the Battle Step and you have to enter the Start Step before that, doing that would be like drawing a card in your Draw Phase and then immediately trying to use priority to summon a monster in your Main Phase before your opponent can respond to your draw.
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:46 AM   #17
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You can't attack in priority, priority refers to starting a chain. If the opponent enters their battle phase they do have priority but that's to start a chain, priority only passes when you start a chain or specifically state that you are passing priority, you have to wait for either from your opponent before you can respond.

In Kyo's example the opponent entered the battle phase and started a chain with Enemy Controller thus passing priority to the opponent who responded by activating Threatening Roar, this is all in the Start Step of the battle phase, the opponent can't declaire an attack until you move from the start step into the battle step.
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Old 05-29-2009, 08:52 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by sid18 View Post
You can't attack in priority, priority refers to starting a chain. If the opponent enters their battle phase they do have priority but that's to start a chain, priority only passes when you start a chain or specifically state that you are passing priority, you have to wait for either from your opponent before you can respond.

In Kyo's example the opponent entered the battle phase and started a chain with Enemy Controller thus passing priority to the opponent who responded by activating Threatening Roar, this is all in the Start Step of the battle phase, the opponent can't declaire an attack until you move from the start step into the battle step.
Actually, Priority doesn't refer exclusively to starting a chain, it encompasses everything, even chaining, summoning and declaring an attack. People usually simplify this concept applying it only on responses to a summon or to a chain.

If you were in the Battle Step then you as the Turn Player would indeed have priority to declare an attack once both players agreed to enter the Battle Step, just like you would have priority to summon a monster or change the battle position of a monster or activate a Normal Spell card or set a Trap card when starting the Main Phase.
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyo View Post
I just keep reading turn player has priority to attack first or whatever, but I don't think I read about responding to chains turn player has made in start step.
Quote:
Battle Phase

You may not enter this phase if you are the starting player. If you do not to enter Battle Phase, you proceed to End Phase. You may enter this phase even if you don't have any monster in your field.

Start

* Turn player declares that he/she is entering the Battle Phase.

* Turn player has the priority to play or activate a Spell Speed 2 effect or card at the start of Battle Phase. (insert - The non-turn player may chain appropriate cards here.)

Decide if conducting battle. Note entering Battle Phase doesn't means you have to declare attacks. If you do not, go straight to End of Battle Phase

(unofficial insert)
* Non-turn player may activate appropriate cards (Threatening Roar, Compulsary Evacution Device, etc. ) here.

The Battle Step

Sub-step 1: Start/Attack Declaration
Here is my understanding of the window where, if the turn player does not use his priority, the non-turn player can inject Threatening roar.

Of interest, notice that once the first attack has made it thru the damage step, if another monster can declare an attack, the game then goes to the battle step; bypassing any window here for the opponent to activate Threatening Roar before the second attack.

Enjoy

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Old 05-29-2009, 10:14 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by perzeus View Post
Actually, Priority doesn't refer exclusively to starting a chain, it encompasses everything, even chaining, summoning and declaring an attack. People usually simplify this concept applying it only on responses to a summon or to a chain.

If you were in the Battle Step then you as the Turn Player would indeed have priority to declare an attack once both players agreed to enter the Battle Step, just like you would have priority to summon a monster or change the battle position of a monster or activate a Normal Spell card or set a Trap card when starting the Main Phase.
When you summon you retain priority because it doesn't start a chain, when you have priority you can do things that don't start a chain and therefore retain your priority, if you had priority to summon then you would pass priority when you summon a monster which is not true. You don't pass priority until you either start a chain or state that you pass priority.
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:06 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by sid18 View Post
however on the other hand if you suddenly ask the opponent to declaire their phases after setting a Spell or Trap on your last turn or announce to them during their main phase that you have a card you will wish to activate before they move to their battle phase then the opponent is also gaining information that they would not otherwise not have had.
There are simple solutions to that. A player simply needs to state at the beginning of game they wish their opponent to announce their steps / phase. If this isn't done as I described earlier players accept the responsability of making their intentions known before timing is inappropriate.

A smart player can also use the scenario you described to their advantage setting other cards that do not involve specific timing and announcing the same thing as a lure to bait out spell / trap destruction only to have it chained.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sid18 View Post
Any time that I'm judging and this kind of dispute occurs i will ask both players to show me what happened without explaining specifics to determine the pace at which they were playing. The pace players are playing at usually determines when a player should have announced a card activation and wether or not they took too long and activated the card at in inapropriate time.

For these kinds of disputes there's never really anything set in stone to go by when judging, you just have to make a call there and then.
The speed at which the game is played should have little or nothing to do with this situation. If players don't play the game as it was set up to be played they take the responsability on themselves. The ideals I've described aren't mine, they're how the prior Judge Manager from UD directed us to rule on such a scenario.

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Old 05-29-2009, 11:09 AM   #22
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When you summon you retain priority because it doesn't start a chain, when you have priority you can do things that don't start a chain and therefore retain your priority, if you had priority to summon then you would pass priority when you summon a monster which is not true. You don't pass priority until you either start a chain or state that you pass priority.
Again, priority encompasses everything, when i start a chain i pass priority to my opponent, after he activates another effect or chooses not to activate anything he's passing it to me again.

You're only thinking on priority to activate cards/effects, but in reality you can have priority for almost anything for everything depending on the moment (for example, the typical example of tributing Treeborn Frog to summon Jinzo at the start of the Main Phase 1 before the opponent can activate Ring of Destruction).
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by perzeus View Post
You're only thinking on priority to activate cards/effects, but in reality you can have priority for almost anything for everything depending on the moment (for example, the typical example of tributing Treeborn Frog to summon Jinzo at the start of the Main Phase 1 before the opponent can activate Ring of Destruction).
You can to this because you have priority but you don't give up your priority to do so. As I said before you can do things that don't start a chain (like summon, Jinzo in this case) at the time you have priority but since you don't give up priority to do so you retain priority.

In the example you gave it's true that the opponent can't use Ring of Destruction to destroy Treeborn Frog before you tribute it to summon Jinzo but that's not because you have priority to summon, it's just that you have priority in general, even if you tributed that Treeborn Frog for Summoned Skull (for example) the opponent would not then be able to use their Ring of Destruction to destroy your Summoned Skull, since you retain priority so the opponent would have to wait for you to activate an effect that starts a chain or verbally pass your priority before they may respond.
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:57 AM   #24
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You can to this because you have priority but you don't give up your priority to do so. As I said before you can do things that don't start a chain (like summon, Jinzo in this case) at the time you have priority but since you don't give up priority to do so you retain priority.

In the example you gave it's true that the opponent can't use Ring of Destruction to destroy Treeborn Frog before you tribute it to summon Jinzo but that's not because you have priority to summon, it's just that you have priority in general, even if you tributed that Treeborn Frog for Summoned Skull (for example) the opponent would not then be able to use their Ring of Destruction to destroy your Summoned Skull, since you retain priority so the opponent would have to wait for you to activate an effect that starts a chain or verbally pass your priority before they may respond.
Now, where did i ever said that you have to pass priority after performing a summon or any other action that doesn't uses the chain?

And just to clarify, since i believe some people might be misled by reading that you can perform a summon before your opponent responds "because you have priority in general", using your priority to perform a summon can only be done when starting the Main Phase (just like if you were trying to activate Cold Wave) or after both players pass on an empty chain.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:00 PM   #25
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You didn't, that's what I'm saying, if you perform a summon or an action that doesn't use the chain you have to either activate something that does use the chain or pass priority before the opponent can activate something, since you retain priority.
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