[Article + Discussion] A look into the bias surrounding LS

[Mr Hyena]

Hello again. It is time for another one of my articles that I am writing for Pojo. This time, we will be looking into the bias against LS.

I will admit, this is not as well written I feel as my previous articles, so I put more focus on discussion in this one. But I wanted to present a debate about anti-Lightsworn bias so that Pojo will have an educated debate.

Here is a good example of a basic build for the deck. Credits go to PKpwnage for the build:

2 Judgment Dragon
3 Honest
3 Necro Gardna
1 Plaguespreader Zombie
3 Celestia, Lightsworn Angel
3 Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner
2 Wulf, Lightsworn Beast
2 Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress
1 Garoth, Lightsworn Warrior
1 Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter
1 Jain, Lightsworn Paladin
1 Aurkus, Lightsworn Druid

3 Charge of the Light Brigade
3 Solar Recharge
2 Gold Sarcophagus
1 Heavy Storm
1 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Brain Control

2 Bottomless Trap Hole
2 Beckoning Light
1 Torrential Tribute
1 Mirror Force
1 Trap Dustshoot

I must confess, I do not have much, if any, time spent playing Lightsworn. Its just not my type of deck, but I do have a full LS deck I run for fun sometimes:

Monsters: 21

2x JD
1x Garoth
1x Jain
1x Jenis
3x Lumina
2x Lyla
1x Arkus
2x Ryko
3x Celestia
2x Wulf
3x Necro Garnda

Spells: 12

3x Solar Recharge
3x Charge of the Light Brigade
2x Gold Sarcophagus
2x Pot of Avarice
1x Heavy Storm
1x Brain Control

Traps: 7

2x Beckoning Light
1x Torrential Tribute
1x Solemn Judgement
2x Dark Bribe
1x Mirror Force

As you can see. Not the best build in the world, but has a decent record. But anyway:

I would like it if more expert Lightsworn players would correct me on any mistake I make about the deck.


Introduction

To begin with, we must admit, there is no other tier 1 deck at the moment in this format that is as hated as Lightsworn are. There are a multitude of factors surrounding this but from what I can gather in the community (correct me if I am wrong, that is what the discussion is for) it is due to several factors:

1) Judgement Dragon
2) The 'luck' aspect (I will explain this later)
3) How well supported the archetype is.

I am going to examine this bias in greater detail, as that is the purpose of this article.

A Banlist: When the Light conquered the Darkness

When the banlist came out there were roars of anger and fury that would have matched the mighty wrath of God's angels themselves, due to the fact that Lightsworn apparantly got off the lightest of all tier 1 decks. But in all honesty, did it? Let us see: Did any cards LS used get hit? the answer: YES!

Cold Wave was put to 1.
CCV was banned. (Used in some Lightsworn variants if I remember right)
Solemn Judgement was put to 1. (Would be useful in a slower format)

And there we have it. LS were hit. Do not start with the argument that they did not get hit as all other decks lost these, as this still technically counts as being hit.

If any other cards LS used were hit, please do point it out and I will expand it here.

An SJC lost: The case of the Tragic Hero

Now...due to this, it was logically said that Lightsworn would dominate the format due to being 'untouched' by the banlist. Let us examine this:

It was true. They DID dominate the first SJC of the season, SJC Orlando. But did they win? No, they did not. Instead, it was one of the few Blackwing decks that managed to reach top 16 that took the title.

Now let us dissect this information. If LS would be so broken as many of the scaremongers would argue, then why did it not win? Was it a case of Luck such as bad milling?

Assuming there was a higher representation there, the chances of LS would naturally increase and that is the reason why so many LightSworn topped. So, if that is true, can we honestly get a real look at how the format will be from this first SJC?

I feel we cannot. In my opinion, the only real way to get an accurate view of the format, would be a tournament with equal numbers of each deck type playing. The only other way would be to wait till the next SJC.

For this, what we can conclude is that we cannot say Lightsworn has any detrimental effect on the metagame, and is not any more worse than any other tier 1 deck.

A Destiny Forgotten: The luck of the Gods

Now... I will admit, I cannot say much here as I do not have the skill to crunch the numbers here.

But what I will do, is apply some logical thought to this area of the deck.

Luck does not come into it for Lightsworn. It is all down to Probability. You have a set chance to draw a card or to mill a card. This may sound like luck yes, but professional Lightsworn players are able to build their decks to affect Probability as much as they can to ensure they minimise the damage bad milling can do.

I believe this aspect of the debate with Lightsworn would be better being said by PKpwnage. I believe he had some numbers crunched out for this.

EDIT: Heres some numbers on the Probabilities. Thanks goes to Ravin Tobias for these:


In an average 40 card LS deck with 24 monsters, 9 of which are 2x JD, 3x Necro, 1x Plague, and 3x Honest, and 15 of which are LS, with approx. 8 of those LS being Duplicates the chances of milling a monster on each individual mill is as follows.

60% to mill any monster
45% to mill a LS.
17.5% to mill a LS that in not a duplicate of another.
5% chance of Milling JD
7.5% chance of milling Honest or Necro Gardna
2.5% on milling Plague
40% to mill a S/T
15% to mill Charge or Recharge

Now, we shall move onto the main chunk of the debate, the bias itself.

Lightsworn: The Pariahs of the Pojo Community

Now what we shall discuss is WHY Lightsworn is any more worse than any other deck.

I have noticed that many people exhibit a Self-Serving Bias when they engage the deck in passionate rants. Many people say that the deck is 'crap', 'rubbish' but when it proves itself, they merely say that it is 'broken' and needs to be hit.

Does anyone see how hypocritical that thought is? How can a deck be horrid, yet broken at the same time?

Lets do a comparision: During the Tele-DAD format, Lightsworn was rarely complained about, instead people complained about Tele-DAD. Now, if we go on to assume that Lightsworn is broken, then should it not have been broken during the Tele-DAD time too?

In my personal opinion, I cannot honestly say that this deck is broken. What I know it is, is a perfect fusion of Tutors, good beatsticks and a godly boss monster, but broken?

No. It hasn't proven itself to be broken. What it has proven itself is that it is a powerful deck, at least the equal of other Tier 1 decks.

What we can conclude from this, is that it is merely down to another case of dislike of winners. People do not like Lightsworn because of their milling nature and because of Judgement Dragon.

So is it a case of opinion?: Of course.

The main argument people seem to put forward against Lightsworn is that it 'sacks'.

This is a very poor argument because that is the same for any deck. All decks have the potential to sack, is it then right to hate a deck for it?

People must remember that card games involve some sort of luck. Poker included.

To Conclude

In looking at the lightsworn deck, and at the reasons people have for their hatred of the deck, it seems that these arguments are based on illogical arguments.

The claims of 'sacking' and 'brokenness' do nothing to change the opinion of the deck as nothing more than a well-proven, high-tier deck that has done nothing detrimental to the meta. (Unlike other tier 1 decks which DID affect their metas: See gladiator beasts.)

So, taking all this into consideration, I can safely say that the dislike of lightsworn is down to personal opinion only, with no evidence to back it up.

[Kryztoff46]

You got solid points TsengFox, good starting point for a good and constructive debate. ;)

[Boltizar]

for help with the deck, consider dropping Jenis for another Aurkus
and maybe both Gold Sarc's for Foolish Burials

and i've been saying it for a long time now
in the hands of someone who actually knows what they're doing playing the deck instead of just dropping Judgment Dragon, the deck is very very good

my Lightswron friend said one of the better counters was Armor Master since Honest fails to do anything to it, requiring Judgment Dragon to be used

[Mr Hyena]

I find Foolish Burials to add inconstancies to the deck, I try not to focus on JD or Wulf. Sarcs let me fetch JD or Celestia. But I appreciate the suggestions, although the deck isn't really part of the article. More like to show how I view the deck.

In mine, I try to focus on increasing consistency with pot of avarice and going for the +1s rather than just JD.

[Typesylvester]

for help with the deck, consider dropping Jenis for another Aurkus
and maybe both Gold Sarc's for Foolish Burials

and i've been saying it for a long time now
in the hands of someone who actually knows what they're doing playing the deck instead of just dropping Judgment Dragon, the deck is very very good

my Lightswron friend said one of the better counters was Armor Master since Honest fails to do anything to it, requiring Judgment Dragon to be used

Celestia could also be used.

Pretty good article Tsengfox.

[Kryztoff46]

IMO With the "Vayu Fever", Armor Master loose a lot, is just a big Beatstick that's all, so Honest is still great.

[Mr Hyena]

As a pre-emptive measure:

Kitsune Blue, if you want to join the debate, please do give constructive comments and leave out the 'Ban JD plz' attitude.

If that happens, all will go swimmingly. :)

[Khepri]

I didnt read it completely, will do it later.

I agree on some points, however I also agree in the fact that JD needs to go to 1.

My opinion.

[Mr Hyena]

I didnt read it completely, will do it later.

I agree on some points, however I also agree in the fact that JD needs to go to 1.

My opinion.

I do feel the same, and its fine saying that as you did label it as your opinion.

As long as we can separate opinions from established fact, then that will promote discussion.

[Khepri]

BTW The whole Hypocrisy thing was well said.

One day people rant about how bad LS is, then a week later they complain about how sackish and broken they are.

I play LS on my DS, and I can tell you that:

LS can win fast, but can get owned as much.

[Ridders]

I would like it if more expert Lightsworn players would correct me on any mistake I make about the deck.

I find Foolish Burials to add inconstancies to the deck

It turns Celestia's stuck in hand into ones on the field. Gets you your 4th LS. Or in tighter spots, dump a Gardna or an LS you need for Lumina.

Unless your playing only 2 Wulf's then 1 Foolish would add consistancy rather than take it away.

Also,

So, taking all this into consideration, I can safely say that the dislike of lightsworn is down to personal opinion only, with no evidence to back it up.

Sounds good to me.

[[Cowboy]]

From what I can see people hate LS because of the milling. Luckymill this lucky draw that it's all I hear. People just don't realize that it is just as easy with a G beast deck to draw your six, summon g beast, set bunch of backrows. With LS when you use the effects (not milling effects) you have to make smart decisions as what do hit with what. With G beast it is simply choose the the monster that best suits the field and your hand; if they have scary monster get murmillo, backrows get bestiari. Given that you actually have to make a mildly difficult decision with G Beast if you don't have a Chariot or Waboku which should rarely happen.

Now let all the people start to get angry because I said something bad about G beast.

[Mr Hyena]

BTW The whole Hypocrisy thing was well said.

One day people rant about how bad LS is, then a week later they complain about how sackish and broken they are.

I play LS on my DS, and I can tell you that:

LS can win fast, but can get owned as much.

Exactly, that is what I feel too.

[invincible13matt]

;15305276']With G beast it is simply choose the the monster that best suits the field and your hand; if they have scary monster get murmillo, backrows get bestiari. Given that you actually have to make a mildly difficult decision with G Beast if you don't have a Chariot or Waboku which should rarely happen.


Except for the fact that GBs are specialized in their specific kind of hate they dish out and "simply" choosing the monster that best suits the field and hand can be horridly complicated in a lot of situations. Lightsworn have three "kill anything you like" cards in Ryko, Celestia, and Judgment Dragon.

Lightsworn get hated on mostly because not only do they have the most broken boss monster in the game that does things that no other boss in the game can do, but he's quickly summonable by their mechanic in most cases (except when I play Lightsworn since my luck sucks regardless of the numbers) and gets to wipe the field out for no reason. Not only that, but they're allowed to run TWO of him. And most will, simply because of the force he wields. Dark Hole + Heavy Storm + Blue-Eyes White Dragon all rolled into one. Killer.

Moving on, I'm sure a lot of people also hate Honest, simply because he says "I win any monster battle if played during damage calculation!" There is no other card that does what Honest does, with his level of unpredictability, since he gets to sit comfortably in your hand as opposed to having to be set for use. It's kinda absurd.

Also, while numbers do play a large part in deck construction (for some people), in the end it's the same as rolling a die with the milling mechanic. Numbers don't determine what comes off the top of your deck. Just because I have a 75% chance to mill a monster doesn't mean it will happen (Fire Emblem has taught me this many, many, MANY times. '-_-). Also, no one likes people getting free cards and effects just for keeping a monster face-up on the field until the end of your turn, and Lightsworn already gets lots of free cards off of Ryko/Garoth/Celestia/Wulf/Judgment Dragon/Gardna/Recharge/CoLB/Lyla etc. in multiple ways.

Also, a reverse toolbox of that versatility is pretty nasty. Self-milling + Monster Reincarnation + Beckoning Light = multiple ouchies

Pile it all together and you get Lightsworn, a deck so full of +1's, a mighty reverse toolbox, and two of the most frustrating cards to see in recent memory, and you have a deck that almost everyone will hate. Except if you're playing it.

[Mr Hyena]

Except for the fact that GBs are specialized in their specific kind of hate they dish out and "simply" choosing the monster that best suits the field and hand can be horridly complicated in a lot of situations. Lightsworn have three "kill anything you like" cards in Ryko, Celestia, and Judgment Dragon.

Lightsworn get hated on mostly because not only do they have the most broken boss monster in the game that does things that no other boss in the game can do, but he's quickly summonable by their mechanic in most cases (except when I play Lightsworn since my luck sucks regardless of the numbers) and gets to wipe the field out for no reason. Not only that, but they're allowed to run TWO of him. And most will, simply because of the force he wields. Dark Hole + Heavy Storm + Blue-Eyes White Dragon all rolled into one. Killer.

Moving on, I'm sure a lot of people also hate Honest, simply because he says "I win any monster battle if played during damage calculation!" There is no other card that does what Honest does, with his level of unpredictability, since he gets to sit comfortably in your hand as opposed to having to be set for use. It's kinda absurd.

Also, while numbers do play a large part in deck construction (for some people), in the end it's the same as rolling a die with the milling mechanic. Numbers don't determine what comes off the top of your deck. Just because I have a 75% chance to mill a monster doesn't mean it will happen (Fire Emblem has taught me this many, many, MANY times. '-_-). Also, no one likes people getting free cards and effects just for keeping a monster face-up on the field until the end of your turn, and Lightsworn already gets lots of free cards off of Ryko/Garoth/Celestia/Wulf/Judgment Dragon/Gardna/Recharge/CoLB/Lyla etc. in multiple ways.

Also, a reverse toolbox of that versatility is pretty nasty. Self-milling + Monster Reincarnation + Beckoning Light = multiple ouchies

Pile it all together and you get Lightsworn, a deck so full of +1's, a mighty reverse toolbox, and two of the most frustrating cards to see in recent memory, and you have a deck that almost everyone will hate. Except if you're playing it.

I do understand.

But I remember there were previous decks much worse than this, but they were decks much worse than this before and none have gathered as much hate as LS.

[Darko88]

While you hit some points dead on, others you really missed. While the deck isn't godly, the "sacking" as you put it, is what creates all the animosity towards the deck.

When you're opponent randomly mills 2 wulfs and draws 2 cards off garoth I personally feel cheated. A random +4 is absolutely brutal late game. There are instances where this won't happen, and I don't think the deck is unbalanced, but the mechanics of the deck (milling) is what makes it more luck based than any other deck.

My opponent has no control over what he mills usually and I think that's why people really dislike and will dislike the deck. Not for it's power, but rather for its complete design to make luck an even bigger factor than it already is.

[Mr Hyena]

While you hit some points dead on, others you really missed. While the deck isn't godly, the "sacking" as you put it, is what creates all the animosity towards the deck.

When you're opponent randomly mills 2 wulfs and draws 2 cards off garoth I personally feel cheated. A random +4 is absolutely brutal late game. There are instances where this won't happen, and I don't think the deck is unbalanced, but the mechanics of the deck (milling) is what makes it more luck based than any other deck.

My opponent has no control over what he mills usually and I think that's why people really dislike and will dislike the deck. Not for it's power, but rather for its complete design to make luck an even bigger factor than it already is.

I could agree I guess yeah.

I just don't see a problem when playing against LS. Its a deck focused around Probabilities but some people It just ticks them off, rather than real broken stuff like Synchro Cat.

[Forrenz]

I've only played LS on Stardust Accelerator, and they do work very well if you can build it right. They don't even need Judgment Dragon; JD's just an alternate win condition, and Celestia and Gragonith are the true aces of the archetype. Gragonith is easily a 3500+ ATK piercer - I really don't see why LS players don't use it; it's ability isn't hindered by specific summoning requirements like Celestia, and CotH and Glorious Illusion make it easy to hack away with.
So I can see why people don't like playing against them, but they're pretty simple to play against, and my main deck has no problem with them whatsoever.

[Mr Hyena]

I've only played LS on Stardust Accelerator, and they do work very well if you can build it right. They don't even need Judgment Dragon; JD's just an alternate win condition, and Celestia and Gragonith are the true aces of the archetype. Gragonith is easily a 3500+ ATK piercer - I really don't see why LS players don't use it; it's ability isn't hindered by specific summoning requirements like Celestia, and CotH and Glorious Illusion make it easy to hack away with.
So I can see why people don't like playing against them, but they're pretty simple to play against, and my main deck has no problem with them whatsoever.

I never did know why they didn't like Gragonith. Its pretty good yeah.

I find them easy to be beat to be honest.

[Chaos Corps]

Good article.

This is my feeling on LS, It's a special type of deck. The deck is broken, but the fact is it mills alot, leading to inconsistency. So it can lead to a victory or a loss. It's obvious this is truth if you look at its records. No SJC big wins, sure it dominated top 16, but it did not win due to its inconsistency due to milling. If it didn't mill as much, or if it wasn't effected as much by that, or by negation cards, then it would be just another basic broken deck, but LS is different.

[Gatsby]

Ego drives the hatred. A self-proclaimed pro won't let their good name be dragged down by the word "luck," so they go out their way to "innovate" the game. :/

[PKpwnage]

I approve.

For being so bad, Gragonith is an amazing card. It's the best piercer in the game.

Here's a "generic" good build you might want to firstpost and compare it to the "top" LS decks:

2 Judgment Dragon
3 Honest
3 Necro Gardna
1 Plaguespreader Zombie
3 Celestia, Lightsworn Angel
3 Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner
2 Wulf, Lightsworn Beast
2 Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress
1 Garoth, Lightsworn Warrior
1 Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter
1 Jain, Lightsworn Paladin
1 Aurkus, Lightsworn Druid

3 Charge of the Light Brigade
3 Solar Recharge
2 Gold Sarcophagus
1 Heavy Storm
1 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Brain Control

2 Bottomless Trap Hole
2 Beckoning Light
1 Torrential Tribute
1 Mirror Force
1 Trap Dustshoot

[Mr Hyena]

I approve.

For being so bad, Gragonith is an amazing card. It's the best piercer in the game.

Here's a "generic" good build you might want to firstpost and compare it to the "top" LS decks:

2 Judgment Dragon
3 Honest
3 Necro Gardna
1 Plaguespreader Zombie
3 Celestia, Lightsworn Angel
3 Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner
2 Wulf, Lightsworn Beast
2 Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress
1 Garoth, Lightsworn Warrior
1 Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter
1 Jain, Lightsworn Paladin
1 Aurkus, Lightsworn Druid

3 Charge of the Light Brigade
3 Solar Recharge
2 Gold Sarcophagus
1 Heavy Storm
1 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Brain Control

2 Bottomless Trap Hole
2 Beckoning Light
1 Torrential Tribute
1 Mirror Force
1 Trap Dustshoot

Hmm...will do.

I didn't intend to be a focus on the deck itself, but rather the bias around the deck.

But its an improvement so I will add deck examples.

[PKpwnage]

I figure a lot of people can't tell a good build from a bad one, and fail to see why the deck doesn't win Jumps.

[Mr Hyena]

I figure a lot of people can't tell a good build from a bad one, and fail to see why the deck doesn't win Jumps.

Thats a good idea. Will add a deck analysis section.

[Kunx990]

I like the deck I just hate how people go, "lol JD for game." Even though JD shouldn't win games but the plays leading up to JD.

[Chaos Corps]

I approve.

For being so bad, Gragonith is an amazing card. It's the best piercer in the game.

Here's a "generic" good build you might want to firstpost and compare it to the "top" LS decks:

2 Judgment Dragon
3 Honest
3 Necro Gardna
1 Plaguespreader Zombie
3 Celestia, Lightsworn Angel
3 Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner
2 Wulf, Lightsworn Beast
2 Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress
1 Garoth, Lightsworn Warrior
1 Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter
1 Jain, Lightsworn Paladin
1 Aurkus, Lightsworn Druid

3 Charge of the Light Brigade
3 Solar Recharge
2 Gold Sarcophagus
1 Heavy Storm
1 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Brain Control

2 Bottomless Trap Hole
2 Beckoning Light
1 Torrential Tribute
1 Mirror Force
1 Trap Dustshoot

...Airknight parshath anyone?

[PKpwnage]

...Airknight parshath anyone?
3800 piercer > 1900 piercer

inb4Neo-Parshath; Gragonith is a simple tribute monster.

[Forrenz]

OMG, those "Chibi-Sworn" are so cute!!

[Chaos Corps]

3800 piercer > 1900 piercer

inb4Neo-Parshath; Gragonith is a simple tribute monster.

But gragonith is only viable in LS, so Airknight is one of, if not the best piercer.

[Kryztoff46]

Well with Parshat you draw a card ;)

[EpsilonKage]

Good article.

I personally like Lightsworns. I don't have a LS deck of my own, but if I could afford it (which I soon will be able to) I'd probably toy around with it. But the truth is, it just doesn't seem like my kind of deck. I've played Lightsworns on 09 a lot and after a while it just seemed like I was using the same plays over and over and over again.

I think as far as Lightsworns being "The Deck to beat" this format, I'd have to disagree. Nobody really knows what that deck is at the time, with only one Jump having passed us by and all, we'll just have to wait and see. But Lightsworns have had several opportunities to win a Jump. More so than any decktype I can think of. I think they're good, but apparently, they're just not good enough...yet. What exactly do we blame for that? Bad draws? Bad plays? Bad players? Stiffer competition? A format not favoring them? Fate conspiring against them?

Who really knows in the end? Time will tell if this format will belong to them or not. It's still up in the air at this point. It could be Lightsworns, Blackwings, DARK variants, Gladiator Beasts. There is simply no telling.

Also, I think another thing you could have added to this article was maybe an analysis of 2 of the deck's main/most powerful/most talked about cards (Judgment Dragon and Charge of the Light Brigade). The reason I suggest this is that whenever people bring up the "broken" argument whether they be for or against Lightsworns, they will usually point to one (or both) of these cards.

[Forrenz]

Not just that, but they'll also be getting two more support cards in Overdrive...

[Scaled Wurm]

My personal opinion is that the main reason people hate LS is how devastating a JD can be. I know that it isn't the main focus of the deck but a monster that blows up the field is one thing, but JD gets to stay out and wreck some face.
Other than that the deck just seems to play itself. I proxied a LS deck for my friend's son who is 11 and he picked it up and started playing it without any help at all. Now to be fair I know in the hands of a more skilled player you will see awesome combos and such come out of it.
Anyway it seems like I have started rambling again, thats just my two cents.

Scaled Wurm

[EpsilonKage]

My personal opinion is that the main reason people hate LS is how devastating a JD can be. I know that it isn't the main focus of the deck but a monster that blows up the field is one thing, but JD gets to stay out and wreck some face.
Other than that the deck just seems to play itself. I proxied a LS deck for my friend's son who is 11 and he picked it up and started playing it without any help at all. Now to be fair I know in the hands of a more skilled player you will see awesome combos and such come out of it.
Anyway it seems like I have started rambling again, thats just my two cents.

Scaled Wurm

Judgment Dragon is their win condition.

[Inu665]

Oh, LS didn't get hit by the list. You should edit that out of your initial post.

[Mr Hyena]

Oh, LS didn't get hit by the list. You should edit that out of your initial post.

They did. Cards used in LS decks (and variants like Twilight) got hit.

Though they weren't part of the LS archetype.

[PKpwnage]

Judgment Dragon is a win condition.
Fixed .

[EpsilonKage]

Avoid it all you like, JD is their main win condition.

[PKpwnage]

The mentality is more like this:

"I'm going to try and beat you with my vast array of toolbox options I have at my disposal. If I happen draw into JD and have 3 or 4 names in my grave, I'll try and use JD to beat you."

[Mr Hyena]

JD is a great card.

But I tend to find using Pot of Avarice and re-using/focusing on Celestia is somewhat more consistant, while treating JD as a great card if you draw.

"I'm going to try and beat you with my vast array of toolbox options I have at my disposal. If I happen draw into JD and have 3 or 4 names in my grave, I'll try and use JD to beat you."

Yeah, I play LS like that.

[EpsilonKage]

The mentality is more like this:

"I'm going to try and beat you with my vast array of toolbox options I have at my disposal. If I happen draw into JD and have 3 or 4 names in my grave, I'll try and use JD to beat you."

You could apply this logic to Gladiator Beasts as well, cept with Gyzarus/Heraklinos.

[Volkamar]

I think it's just the consistency thing that stops Lightsworn from ultimately winning a jump. Maybe it will all change, but how the deck works, it seems extremely tough to hold out a constant win ratio in one major event (your bound to either lose one or two rounds in the swiss or lose out in the final battles). As Lightsworn have evolved, so have their reliability, and with SOVR Exclusives coming up we may just see the saving grace that pulls Lightsworns consistency to the point it starts actually starts winning, and stops simply topping.

[invincible13matt]

They did. Cards used in LS decks (and variants like Twilight) got hit.

Though they weren't part of the LS archetype.

To be honest, LS did lose those cards, but, as you stated, so did everyone else, and I would argue that the cards that were limited were more important to the other decks than they were to LS.

Cold Wave - Shut down Lightsworn's explosive ability to use spells, the only use they had for this was a pre-Judgment Dragon s/t lockdown. On any other turn, it kinda hurts them more than it helps.

Crush Card Virus - Killed virtually EVERYTHING a Lightsworn player runs. All that they would have left is Lumina, Ryko, and Honest after this swatted them down. Other decks aren't quite as vulnerable.

Solemn Judgment - While this helped protect the Lightsworn player quite a bit, it was also one of the only completely viable responses to an almost inevitable JD that would stop you from losing your entire field. There is no other card that does that right now that people are willing to run.

[Mr Hyena]

To be honest, LS did lose those cards, but, as you stated, so did everyone else, and I would argue that the cards that were limited were more important to the other decks than they were to LS.

Cold Wave - Shut down Lightsworn's explosive ability to use spells, the only use they had for this was a pre-Judgment Dragon s/t lockdown. On any other turn, it kinda hurts them more than it helps.

Crush Card Virus - Killed virtually EVERYTHING a Lightsworn player runs. All that they would have left is Lumina, Ryko, and Honest after this swatted them down. Other decks aren't quite as vulnerable.

Solemn Judgment - While this helped protect the Lightsworn player quite a bit, it was also one of the only completely viable responses to an almost inevitable JD that would stop you from losing your entire field. There is no other card that does that right now that people are willing to run.

Good analysis. But I feel my point still stands, that they did lose things.

[Raven Tobias]

EXCELLENT article Tseng. I agree on every point.

[PJ]

PK, I'm interested in this 'number crunching' you did.

Can you link/post it up?

[patheman]

Great Article !

(+1 PJ)

[Mr Hyena]

I could have sworn he did some probability calculations.

Though I may have been wrong.

[The_Dark_Monarch]

I really enjoyed the article, Tseng.

Although I don't run LS myself & I have only dueled against a LS build a few times, I read a lot about both sides of the debate.

From what I gather, LS is an inconsistent deck, relying on luck & a powerful boss monster as its 'win condition'.

We also cannot discount Honest though, as it seems that not much can stop that. Personally, I'd rather see Honest restricted more that JD. That would 'even it out' a bit.

I think the main reason why people hate on LS, is that nobody likes to be 'lucked out' of a top 8 spot.

Now, I don't agree with those who say 'LS is a sackish deck'.
Granted, it may need luck to win, but that luck causes it to lose a lot too.

In a game based on 'luck' all of that is 'par for the course' anyway.

So, somebody may make a 'consistent' LS deck that tops every SJ it attends...then that whining will go from LS is a 'sackish' deck, to LS is a 'broken' deck.

You cannot have it both ways.

[PJ]

I could have sworn he did some probability calculations.

Though I may have been wrong.
He may have. of all the Pojo LS players he'd be the most likely to give it a go.

[solat75]

Lightsworns themselves are not too much of a problem, but Judgment Dragon wins games where a loss would otherwise be inevitable. I can't count the number of times I would be up by 3000 more life points, my opponent has no cards in hand, I have 3-4 and Judgment Dragon shows up to save the day.

I agree with a previous poster that Honest is somewhat of a problem too, there are very few cards in the game that can effectively deal with Honest.

While both of those cards are problems in their own rights, the real problem with Lightsworns is the game mechanic of milling, and the combination of all the cards that works so well with said mechanic. That is also their greatest hindrance, I have seen people mill 2x JD followed by 2x Charge, then next turn mill 2x Honest, and that is after I seriously pile shuffled, riffle shuffled and cut their deck, so the one thing that makes the deck work so well, can kill it outright too.

[PKpwnage]

PK, I'm interested in this 'number crunching' you did.

Can you link/post it up?
Hang on. I'll have to find it. Maybe I can re-create it.

[ih0tfirei]

He may have. of all the Pojo LS players he'd be the most likely to give it a go.

im pretty sure pk did not do this although i may be wrong. Being on the LS thread alot i remember another member doing the math to shut up someone who thought the deck was pure luck. Pk did however fix it up.

Only drag right now is finding the LS thread or the member who said it.

[Mr Hyena]

Well, it wasn't terribly important to the debate, but I thought it may help illuminate the matter on the 'luck' of the deck.

[PKpwnage]

I remember that it was spike15 that originally did the math.

I did a calculation for drawing X card in a duel compared to other decks, but in a macro sense instead of spike's micro sense.

[ih0tfirei]

I remember that it was spike15 that originally did the math.

I did a calculation for drawing X card in a duel compared to other decks, but in a macro sense instead of spike's micro sense.

good memory, it should not be hard since spike has not posted(to my understanding) in such a long time.

Additional Comment:

found it



hate that people don't really understand the way that Lightsworn works.

This post will probably turn into a TL : DR, but if you do read it, it'll probably enlighten you quite a bit to why the milling aspect of Lightsworn doesn't decrease its consistency by milling crucial cards.

The fact-of-the-matter here, is that cards that Lightsworn runs, but which aren't beneficial to mill (spells and traps, essentially) are not searchable, generally speaking. Sure, there are ways to tutor certain spells (TToC, Mana Seize, etc.) or even any spell (Dark Sage), and there are ways to tutor traps (A Cat of Ill Omen), but you're probably not going to see these run in any competitive deck.

There are also no competitive ways, beyond Endymion and Mask of Darkness, to retrieve "fallen" spells and traps, and, again, these are really fringe cards, and are unlikely to make an impact on the metagame, or be run in Lightsworn, in particular.

This said, we come to the conclusion that spell and trap cards must be drawn, somehow, whether that's in your Draw Phase, or off an effect that causes you to draw.

HYPOTHESIS: Milling (as in Lightsworn) does not appreciably decrease the amount that you will be able to use key cards.

SUPPORTING RHETORIC: Let's say that you have Mirror Force in your deck. One of a few things can happen to this Mirror Force:

A. You can draw it.
B. You can mill it.
C. You can not draw it

Your deck is 40 cards, therefore the odds of any particular card being Mirror Force is 1/40.

If you mill Mirror Force, it is useless. If you don't draw it, it is also useless. You have no way to tutor Mirror Force, so milling it and not drawing it are absolutely identical insofar as result. Both ways, you can't use it.

Let us say that a game lasts 3 turns (for both players), therefore it ends on Player B's 5th turn, Player A being the player who goes first. Let's assume that without fail the Lightsworn player (Player A) mills 3 cards each End Phase.

Both players have Mirror Force in their deck, and run exactly 40 cards.

At the beginning of the game, player A draws 5 cards, and then another card, so 6 cards.

As he draws each card, exactly one of two things can happen:

A. He draws Mirror Force.
B. He does not draw Mirror Force.

Upon drawing the first card, there is a 39/40 chance that he does not draw Mirror Force, there is a 1/40 chance that he does draw Mirror Force.

If we assume that he did not draw Mirror Force, there is a 38/39 chance that he does not draw Mirror Force with this second card, and so on.

Therefore, the odds of him not drawing Mirror Force in the first 6 cards is:

(39/40)*(38/39)*(37/38)*(36/37)*(35/36)*(34/35) = 85%

By complementing this relative to 100%, we see that the odds of him drawing Mirror Force in his first 6 cards is 15%.

Let's assume that he didn't draw Mirror Force, at the End Phase, he mills 3 cards. What's the chance that he mills Mirror Force? Well, he has to have not drawn it, so there's an 85% chance of that happening, and then each card milled can't be Mirror Force:

0.85*(33/34)*(32/33)*(31/32) = 77.5%

So, we now look at the probability:

85% chance he doesn't draw Mirror Force
77.5% chance he doesn't draw OR mill Mirror Force
15% chance he draws Mirror Force
7.5% chance he mills Mirror Force

So far, after one turn, there's a 85% chance that Mirror Force is "dead", and a 15% chance that it's "live".

Let's advance to Player A's second turn. He draws a card. There's a 77.5% chance that Mirror Force is in his deck, so:

0.775*(30/31) = 75%

75% chance that he doesn't draw Mirror Force. The odds of him milling Mirror Force haven't changed, because he hasn't milled again, so there's still that 7.5% chance he milled it, and a 75% chance that he didn't draw it, so what're the odds he drew it?

100 - 75 - 7.5 = 17.5%

At the End Phase, he mills 3 once more. In order for him to mill it, it has to be in his deck, so:

0.75*(29/30)*(28/29)*(27/28) = 67.5%

So there's not a 67.5% chance that he hasn't seen Mirror Force, a 17.5% chance that he's drawn Mirror Force, and a 15% chance that he's milled Mirror Force.

Next turn (his last turn)!

He draws:

0.675*(26/27) = 65%

65% he hasn't seen it
15% he's milled it
20% chance he's drawn it

He mills:

0.65*(25/26)*(24/25)*(23/24) = 57.5%

FINAL PROBABILITY FOR LS PLAYER:

57.5% chance he didn't see Mirror Force
20% chance he milled Mirror Force
22.5% chance he drew Mirror Force

Player B time!

Player B draws his 6 cards, and at this point his odds are the same as the LS player's were at this point:

85% chance he didn't draw it
15% chance he drew it

Next turn he draws, and then the turn after, and the turn after that:

0.85*(33/34)*(32/33)*(31/32) = 77.5%

FINAL PROBABILITY FOR NON-LS PLAYER:

77.5% chance he didn't see Mirror Force
22.5% chance he drew Mirror Force

In Conclusion: The milling aspect doesn't appreciably decrease the consistency with which Lightsworn players see essential spells and traps, especially since they minimize the number of spells and traps that they run in favour of monsters which capitalize on the grossly-large number of cards that they mill.

Calling Lightsworn "sack-ish" is unsubstantiated. You can argue that an LS player will mill more than 3 cards per turn, but there's also Solar Recharge and Garoth, which give the deck gross draw power that's unmatched in this format. It also has the ability to search its key monsters, and/or retrieve them from the graveyard, opening it up to an entirely new kind of consistency.

The problem with Lightsworn is not flaws with the archetype, it's flaws with the deck-builders who DO NOT PROPERLY CAPITALIZE ON THE UNIQUE NATURE OF THE DECK. Until people start seeing the deck for what it really is, it will fall.

That's a guarantee.

Finally:

Stop your unsubstantiated claims, now, lest you look like a fool.


Credit to spike15 .

[PJ]

lol I was just about to c/p the link myself.

[PKpwnage]

There we go.

[Havok]

Good read.

[ih0tfirei]

There we go.

whats funny is that he posted this in thread 18 or 17. The LS thread is on 41 and people still dont understand this

[invincible13matt]

The problem with that analysis is that it only measures the probabilities of ONE CARD. A single card does not make a deck. The chance that you mill any spell/trap card is somewhat greater that just the chance to mill a particular one. So, no, it does not substantially decrease the odds of drawing a particular card. What it DOES do, is increase the chance of cutting yourself off from other cards in the deck aside from that particular card.

Also, probability is a pretty treacherous thing that may or may not favor you in a given time, as the probability should theoretically be balanced across all Lightsworn players, and across all of your games.

Also, if you mill, the chances of you seeing that card later in the game instantly become zero, as opposed to your opponent who still has the chance to draw it.

In conclusion: numbers must be applied across the whole deck, but, in my opinion, cannot be counted much on anyway. '-_- Thanks Fire Emblem, you've jaded me to probability.

[PKpwnage]

The problem with that analysis is that it only measures the probabilities of ONE CARD. A single card does not make a deck. The chance that you mill any spell/trap card is somewhat greater that just the chance to mill a particular one. So, no, it does not substantially decrease the odds of drawing a particular card. What it DOES do, is increase the chance of cutting yourself off from other cards in the deck aside from that particular card.

Also, probability is a pretty treacherous thing that may or may not favor you in a given time, as the probability should theoretically be balanced across all Lightsworn players, and across all of your games.

Also, if you mill, the chances of you seeing that card later in the game instantly become zero, as opposed to your opponent who still has the chance to draw it.

In conclusion: numbers must be applied across the whole deck, but, in my opinion, cannot be counted much on anyway. '-_- Thanks Fire Emblem, you've jaded me to probability.
*facepalm*

......

*FACEPALM*

[invincible13matt]

*facepalm*

......

*FACEPALM*

The point is that the probability of milling something IMPORTANT is substantially greater than the probability of milling something specific. >_>

[PKpwnage]

That makes no sense.

The math is showing that drawing X card has the same chances for LS as it does with any other deck.

[invincible13matt]

Let's put it this way then.

Assuming a balanced 40 card deck, (s/t = monster), and assuming a balanced first draw (s/t=monster, again), the probability from milling 3 cards that you will mill something irretrievable is:
first card: 50%
second card if first card was a monster: 51.5%
third card if both were monsters: 53.125%
second if first was a s/t: 48.49%
third card if both were s/t: 46.875%
third if one of each: 50%

Lightsworn wants to mill monsters in general. It has ways to get them back quite easily. Lightsworn does not want to mill spells or traps in general. It cannot use them if it does.

IMO, the probability of milling a general category of card is much more important than the probability of milling a specific card.

[PKpwnage]

Let's put it this way then.

Assuming a balanced 40 card deck, (s/t = monster), and assuming a balanced first draw (s/t=monster, again), the probability from milling 3 cards that you will mill something irretrievable is:
first card: 50%
second card if first card was a monster: 51.5%
third card if both were monsters: 53.125%
second if first was a s/t: 48.49%
third card if both were s/t: 46.875%
third if one of each: 50%

Lightsworn wants to mill monsters in general. It has ways to get them back quite easily. Lightsworn does not want to mill spells or traps in general. It cannot use them if it does.

IMO, the probability of milling a general category of card is much more important than the probability of milling a specific card.
You didn't say anything useful. All you did was show the probability of milling a monster off a Charge.

You're missing the bigger point that milling doesn't affect your chances of drawing a certain card over the course of a duel; ergo, it's no different than Monarchs having Brain Control at the bottom of the deck.

[FridayMooN]

I stopped reading as soon as I saw Jenis.

[Gaving]

Sorry, but I have to point out a few things. I may be biased against lightsworn, but you clearly are biased for them. The way you talk about the people who are 'biased' against them, and some of your points are just rediculous.

Did any cards LS used get hit? the answer: YES!

Cold Wave was put to 1.
CCV was banned. (Used in some Lightsworn variants if I remember right)
Solemn Judgement was put to 1. (Would be useful in a slower format)

And there we have it. LS were hit. Do not start with the argument that they did not get hit as all other decks lost these, as this still technically counts as being hit.

If any other cards LS used were hit, please do point it out and I will expand it here.

That shouldn't even count as getting hit, CCV being banned Helped LS just as much as it hurt it.

Most LS builds only used 1 Cold Wave (IF EVEN)

And who says LS would of used solemn this format? And even if they did, it doesn't even matter because it also helps them more than it could of ever hurt them because now there's nothing to stop Celestia or JD for decks that don't run oppression/Drain.

Just because it didn't win the SJC doesn't mean that its not broken. The fact that your using the arguement that it DIDN'T win implies that just because theres some competition, Lightsworn is magically not good.

You say "For this, what we can conclude is that we cannot say Lightsworn has any detrimental effect on the metagame, and is not any more worse than any other teir 1 deck"

Really?...Really? Lightsworn causes no harm? So, you don't consider 9 of the top 16 decks the same at the SJC harm? You don't consider that any player with little to no expirence can top with Lightsworn harm?

Whats that phrase? "Give a man a Vayu deck and he'll drop, Give a man a Lightsworn deck and he'll top"

The Only reason why Lightsworn hasn't won an event is because the good players are out numbered by bad players. You might think hey, so what there good players. But when they face luck at the same rate, what you get left by chance is a group of lucky bad players left in the top 16, about to face the toughest of the crowd.

Saying that the 'Sack' arguement is invalid because other decks can do the same thing is funny, because a top deck JD is a sac like no other.



I may be biased against Lightsworn, but atleast I don't hide it.

And to be honest, we don't need to hear from someone about lightsworn who has "Full Lightsworn" with Jenis mained and no honest. You must be the typical LS player.


Time to finish this off.

I must confess, I do not have much, if any, time spent playing Lightsworn. Its just not my type of deck, but I do have a full LS deck I run for fun sometimes:

Monsters: 21

2x JD
1x Garoth
1x Jain
1x Jenis
3x Lumina
2x Lyla
1x Arkus
2x Ryko
3x Celestia
2x Wulf
3x Necro Garnda

(No Honest)
Spells: 12

3x Solar Recharge
3x Charge of the Light Brigade
2x Gold Sarcophagus
2x Pot of Avarice
1x Heavy Storm
1x Brain Control

Traps: 7

2x Beckoning Light
1x Torrential Tribute
1x Solemn Judgement
2x Dark Bribe
1x Mirror Force

As you can see. Not the best build in the world, but has a decent record.


/thread

[linvus232]

As the top decks go, LS is definitely the easiest to just pick up and win with (at least in my experience- I've had a go with all of the top decks using generic builds and LS was by far the friendliest) and I think a lot of the animosity comes from people thinking they have been beaten by a 'less-skilled' (whatever that means) player as a result. I think it's been said before- a big part of the problem is ego.

I enjoyed the article, but one thing confused me a bit- obviously LS weren't entirely untouched by the new list but you cannot compare the fates of LS and, say, Synchro Cat (they were both 'hit' in some sense). Surely a lot of people who say LS were untouched are talking relatively? Everything else top tier was, or at least seemed to be, hit 'harder' in that more cards that were more useful to them got restricted.

[Mr Hyena]

Sorry, but I have to point out a few things. I may be biased against lightsworn, but you clearly are biased for them. The way you talk about the people who are 'biased' against them, and some of your points are just rediculous.



That shouldn't even count as getting hit, CCV being banned Helped LS just as much as it hurt it.

Most LS builds only used 1 Cold Wave (IF EVEN)

And who says LS would of used solemn this format? And even if they did, it doesn't even matter because it also helps them more than it could of ever hurt them because now there's nothing to stop Celestia or JD for decks that don't run oppression/Drain.

Just because it didn't win the SJC doesn't mean that its not broken. The fact that your using the arguement that it DIDN'T win implies that just because theres some competition, Lightsworn is magically not good.

You say "For this, what we can conclude is that we cannot say Lightsworn has any detrimental effect on the metagame, and is not any more worse than any other teir 1 deck"

Really?...Really? Lightsworn causes no harm? So, you don't consider 9 of the top 16 decks the same at the SJC harm? You don't consider that any player with little to no expirence can top with Lightsworn harm?

Whats that phrase? "Give a man a Vayu deck and he'll drop, Give a man a Lightsworn deck and he'll top"

The Only reason why Lightsworn hasn't won an event is because the good players are out numbered by bad players. You might think hey, so what there good players. But when they face luck at the same rate, what you get left by chance is a group of lucky bad players left in the top 16, about to face the toughest of the crowd.

Saying that the 'Sack' arguement is invalid because other decks can do the same thing is funny, because a top deck JD is a sac like no other.



I may be biased against Lightsworn, but atleast I don't hide it.

And to be honest, we don't need to hear from someone about lightsworn who has "Full Lightsworn" with Jenis mained and no honest. You must be the typical LS player.


Time to finish this off.

I must confess, I do not have much, if any, time spent playing Lightsworn. Its just not my type of deck, but I do have a full LS deck I run for fun sometimes:

Monsters: 21

2x JD
1x Garoth
1x Jain
1x Jenis
3x Lumina
2x Lyla
1x Arkus
2x Ryko
3x Celestia
2x Wulf
3x Necro Garnda

(No Honest)
Spells: 12

3x Solar Recharge
3x Charge of the Light Brigade
2x Gold Sarcophagus
2x Pot of Avarice
1x Heavy Storm
1x Brain Control

Traps: 7

2x Beckoning Light
1x Torrential Tribute
1x Solemn Judgement
2x Dark Bribe
1x Mirror Force

As you can see. Not the best build in the world, but has a decent record.


/thread

I'm interested why people are pointing out my deck. Its not really got anything to do with the article, I just thought, for fun I should post my build anyway. It wasn't intended to be for competition.

Now...for the banlist, you are arguing semantics. They technically DID get hit, even if some of the things help more than hurt.

Also, yes, 9 out of 16 decks does sound bad. HOWEVER. The Diversity this time is superior to the previous format. (To be confirmed by the next SJC.) Who says we'll have 9 out of 16 LS next time?

Also, I'm a Koa'ki Meriu player. Not an LS player. Quite a few people here know that. :cool:

As the top decks go, LS is definitely the easiest to just pick up and win with (at least in my experience- I've had a go with all of the top decks using generic builds and LS was by far the friendliest) and I think a lot of the animosity comes from people thinking they have been beaten by a 'less-skilled' (whatever that means) player as a result. I think it's been said before- a big part of the problem is ego.

I enjoyed the article, but one thing confused me a bit- obviously LS weren't entirely untouched by the new list but you cannot compare the fates of LS and, say, Synchro Cat (they were both 'hit' in some sense). Surely a lot of people who say LS were untouched are talking relatively? Everything else top tier was, or at least seemed to be, hit 'harder' in that more cards that were more useful to them got restricted.

Synchro Cat got hit harder than Lightsworn did, simply because of the fact that Synchro Cat was infinitely more broken and bad for the metagame.

Look to the banlist about How Konami does it. Konami prefers to neuter decks that are harming Diversity.

Diversity is key for Konami. With the killing of Synchro Cats, a better meta in this term has developed.

[Chaos Li]

i agree with linvus232

I'm not really experinced in dueling against tourney level LS decks, a friend has one and it's pretty strong and i must admit that my ego was hitted by constantly losing to him xDU, but i think it was Karma, when i was a young player in the game, somehow i rapidly build a Chaos Control Deck(a.k.a. The Popular Deck of the time) and won against my friends or other competitor in the local area, growing foolishly confident about my skills, my friends hated that deck and with good reasons: good synergy, hand advantage, graveyard manipulation and an awesome field control & prescence and the most terrifying thing is .....that the deck almost plays by itself. then, the Advanced Format appears my godly deck was destroyed, i cried, ranted & blamed against the new "format" left the game for a few months, and then ...back and start to really learning how to play the game(and i'm still learning xDU).

First, i don't say that Lightsworns are like Chaos, they are more complicated(one of the reason for why the banlist don't make mince meat with them), but surely they have various mechanics that allows for powerfull(yet dangerous) plays that allow winning a duel. But that's not the main reason i think. The Main reason it's the support that "apparently" surrounds them, well it's true, they got hit, but not as hard as the other "Top Tiers" and, on top of that, they will receive "new support" in SOVR, well they are an "Archetype" and it's fairly common that "Archetypes" get new support from time to time(we have Reatiari, Blackstorm and Equeste to name a few), but the fact that the deck is likely the most "promising" at this moment, that they don't abandon the tiers since it's release(i'm maybe wrong with this but i'm sure that this is don't so far away from reality), and escapes the banlist barely "touched", it's no surprise that various duelist argue about this with founded or unfounded arguments.

When i think it's good to release reprints of cards that otherwise are very dificult to obtain, the announces of 2 "vital lightsworn cards" one after another followed by the anounce of "Honest" with an introduction that almost invites the players to make a "Lightsworn" deck leaves the people with a feeling of "wow ....Konami sure love Lightsworns", of course not everybody thinks like that but i'm sure that the majority does.

[Isgots1]

From my experiences, it seems people hate JD and Honest more than they do the deck. Because both can easily win games for you, so since they are ran in Lightsworns, they are hated. I also notice the hate because of the support they get.

Also Lightsworn "not getting touched" by the banlist also has to do with the OCG not having a strong presence of LS. That all will change with CoTLB. So expect some major damage to LS decks next banlist.

To add to this, JD is not the problem. While JD is broken, he's not the most broken aspect of the deck. It's honest, he can let you sit there in your hand and protect your monsters. If honest was restricted to 1, it'd balance LS a bit. But Beckoning Light would need to be restricted as well.

[PKpwnage]

To add to this, JD is not the problem. While JD is broken, he's not the most broken aspect of the deck. It's honest, he can let you sit there in your hand and protect your monsters. If honest was restricted to 1, it'd balance LS a bit. But Beckoning Light would need to be restricted as well.
I can guarantee you wouldn't be complaining about Honest if Judgment Dragon didn't exist. Honest is nothing more than a card you need to play around or bait out, like Bottomless Trap Hole or D.D. Warrior Lady.

[EpsilonKage]

I can guarantee you wouldn't be complaining about Honest if Judgment Dragon didn't exist. Honest is nothing more than a card you need to play around or bait out, like Bottomless Trap Hole or D.D. Warrior Lady.

Bottomless and D.D. Warrior Lady are easier to play around and you know it.

[PKpwnage]

Not really. They both have less restrictive activation requirements, and DDWL is vulnerable to the same sort of counters as Honest is. To clarify, the cards that counter DDWL also counter Honest by making him a dead card.

Bottomless is pretty much only vulnerable to MST/Heavy, and is chainable to any monster that would threaten it (Celestia, Bestiari, Gyzarus, JD, DAD, etc).

[invincible13matt]

Not really. They both have less restrictive activation requirements, and DDWL is vulnerable to the same sort of counters as Honest is. To clarify, the cards that counter DDWL also counter Honest by making him a dead card.

Bottomless is pretty much only vulnerable to MST/Heavy, and is chainable to any monster that would threaten it (Celestia, Bestiari, Gyzarus, JD, DAD, etc).

However, both of them must be on the field to be used. DDWL can be preemptively countered be almost any sort of monster destruction. The hand destruction that would stop Honest is usually reduced to Trap Dustshoot and Mind Crush, one of which is limited and one of which isn't always run...

Bottomless is semi-limited, where I think Honest should be, so I'm not going to complain about it.

Also, neither of those can cause such high levels of damage. (this is mostly in relation to double/triple Honest drops)

[PKpwnage]

However, both of them must be on the field to be used. DDWL can be preemptively countered be almost any sort of monster destruction. The hand destruction that would stop Honest is usually reduced to Trap Dustshoot and Mind Crush, one of which is limited and one of which isn't always run...

Bottomless is semi-limited, where I think Honest should be, so I'm not going to complain about it.
You're not getting it.

Bottomless, Mirror Force, D-Prison, etc. counter DDWL by getting rid of her.

Bottomless, Mirror Force, D-Prison, etc. counter Honest by making him dead.
(Even on your turn you can use stuff like Smashing, Book, and Fissure)

Bottomless and Honest should both be at three for a very long time, barring something outrageous.

Additional Comment:

Getting hit with double or triple Honest very rarely occurs and is one of those "**** happens" moments.

Plus, to be honest, if you get hit by double or triple Honest, you were already losing and the LS player had a decent amount of cards at the very least.

[EpsilonKage]

Not really. They both have less restrictive activation requirements, and DDWL is vulnerable to the same sort of counters as Honest is. To clarify, the cards that counter DDWL also counter Honest by making him a dead card.

Bottomless is pretty much only vulnerable to MST/Heavy, and is chainable to any monster that would threaten it (Celestia, Bestiari, Gyzarus, JD, DAD, etc).

The only handy counter Honest has in the first place is Divine Wrath and Mind Crush. D.D. Warrior Lady may be vulnerable to Divine Wrath as well, but it's also vulnerable to: Bottomless Trap Hole, Trap Hole, Skill Drain, Light-Imprisoning Mirror, any generic monster removal (Smashing, Fissure, Torrential). Just to name a few. A vast majority of the time, Honest is not vulnerable to those (seeing as how he hardly ever hits the field).

And Bottomless is vulnerable to...well, any S/T removal. MST, Heavy Storm, Malevolent Catastrophe, Trunade and Cold Wave (temporarily), Solemn, Ryko, Yaichi, etc.

[ih0tfirei]

People are actually complaining about honest? Wow that amazes me

[invincible13matt]

You're not getting it.

Bottomless, Mirror Force, D-Prison, etc. counter DDWL by getting rid of her.

Bottomless, Mirror Force, D-Prison, etc. counter Honest by making him dead.
(Even on your turn you can use stuff like Smashing, Book, and Fissure)

Bottomless and Honest should both be at three for a very long time, barring something outrageous.


the thing is, three of those are reactive answers to pretty much anything (kinda like Solemn), and it's very easy to mask an in-hand Honest underneath a genuine play, i.e. You have Stardust and Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer, I summon Garoth to swing over Kycoo and free up my Gardnas. I would do this regardless of whether or not I have Honest in hand.


Additional Comment:

Getting hit with double or triple Honest very rarely occurs and is one of those "**** happens" moments.


IMO, one of the "**** happens" moments that shouldn't happen, like having Crush Card wipe out your entire hand. Being able to hit someone with double Honest essentially punishes your opponent for playing a decent sized monster.


Plus, to be honest, if you get hit by double or triple Honest, you were already losing and the LS player had a decent amount of cards at the very least.

I don't believe this to be entirely the case, as it is entirely possible to draw two Honests in an opening hand, pick up a second from recharges, get hit by Beckoning Light, Monster Reincarnation, etc.

[EpsilonKage]

People are actually complaining about honest? Wow that amazes me

I'm not. I actually like Honest. I'm just trying to make a point that it's harder to counter than BTH or DDWL.

[Isgots1]

I can guarantee you wouldn't be complaining about Honest if Judgment Dragon didn't exist. Honest is nothing more than a card you need to play around or bait out, like Bottomless Trap Hole or D.D. Warrior Lady.

Some what true, but there's still the fact that Celestia is just as destructive as JD is. Just not as quick to bring out as JD is. So in theory, Honest should be okay at 3 without JD. But it's not, because it activates in hand and in the damage step, Honest helps LS players set up for the win.

BTH and DDWL aren't game winning cards on their own, Honest can be and is sometimes. At 1, Honest does less damage and won't let the the LS decks set up as quick. And that's the problem with Honest at 3, it can bait the player into not attacking a LS monster allowing for more mill. At one, they can bait it once and you won't have to worry about it.

Like I said, JD is broken. But it's the fact that Honest is a set up card. But then there's also the fact that LS has so much support that it's practically it's own monster type. The reason it hasn't won many Jumps is because the fact that there have been more broken decks than LS Decks. This format, is a LS heavy format, so LS should start dominating more. But we all know, if JD is banned, then DAD needs to be banned as well and vice-versa.

[PKpwnage]

Some what true, but there's still the fact that Celestia is just as destructive as JD is. Just not as quick to bring out as JD is. So in theory, Honest should be okay at 3 without JD. But it's not, because it activates in hand and in the damage step, Honest helps LS players set up for the win. Honest is more counter-productive to JD than anything else, because your LS monster won't be hitting the grave.

BTH and DDWL aren't game winning cards on their own, Honest can be and is sometimes. Show me how Honest wins games on its own. At 1, Honest does less damage and won't let the the LS decks set up as quick. And that's the problem with Honest at 3, it can bait the player into not attacking a LS monster allowing for more mill. At one, they can bait it once and you won't have to worry about it.

Like I said, JD is broken. But it's the fact that Honest is a set up card. But then there's also the fact that LS has so much support that it's practically it's own monster type. The reason it hasn't won many Jumps is because the fact that there have been more broken decks than LS Decks. This format, is a LS heavy format, so LS should start dominating more. But we all know, if JD is banned, then DAD needs to be banned as well and vice-versa.
There's a lot of stuff that should be banned.

[ih0tfirei]

Honest does not need any limiting whatsoever. Its a perfectly balanced card. It does not matter if JD is legal or not.

[PKpwnage]

the thing is, three of those are reactive answers to pretty much anything (kinda like Solemn), and it's very easy to mask an in-hand Honest underneath a genuine play, i.e. You have Stardust and Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer, I summon Garoth to swing over Kycoo and free up my Gardnas. I would do this regardless of whether or not I have Honest in hand.



IMO, one of the "**** happens" moments that shouldn't happen, like having Crush Card wipe out your entire hand. Being able to hit someone with double Honest essentially punishes your opponent for playing a decent sized monster.



I don't believe this to be entirely the case, as it is entirely possible to draw two Honests in an opening hand, pick up a second from recharges, get hit by Beckoning Light, Monster Reincarnation, etc.It's also possible for someone to draw into Solemn, Chariot, Tiger, and a Glad Beast.

[Mr Hyena]

Yeah, Honest is fine.

[Isgots1]

There's a lot of stuff that should be banned.

LOL, true, true. I guess it's just my dislike for Honest.

[Gaving]

Lightsworns are too easy, there easier than most if not all decks. Prove me wrong, please.

[PKpwnage]

Lightsworns are too easy, there easier than most if not all decks. Prove me wrong, please.
"I have a sandwich."
"Prove it."
"You can't prove I don't."

Amazing logic, dude.

[ih0tfirei]

Lightsworns are too easy, there easier than most if not all decks. Prove me wrong, please.

easy to play or easy to beat?

Nevermind

your wrong on both cases anyway.

if its easy to beat then most wont ***** about them.

and if its easy to play LS should have gotten more wins by now instead of just tops.

sure the deck sometimes has clear cut moves like

derp derp summon lyla- pop backrow-summon JD

but its alot harder then people give it credit for.

[gigan45]

easy to play or easy to beat?

Nevermind

your wrong on both cases anyway.

if its easy to beat then most wont ***** about them.


It's easy to beat if you're good... which is probably why alot of ppl on pojo ***** so much

[ih0tfirei]

It's easy to beat if you're good... which is probably why alot of ppl on pojo ***** so much

LOL .

[JRCxyz]

I don't even get why people are arguing over Honest. He isn't broken at all, imo. The problem, however, is Judgment Dragon. Yes, you may say "JD is just a win condition" but is the most destructive win condition, not only in the typical Lightsworn deck, but in the format. Don't get me wrong, I like Lightsworn; I think they are almost free wins (I play Monarchs and idk I just beat them easily) and they are fun to play with. This doesn't mean the facts change because I like the deck. Imo, Judgment Dragon should go at one. I see that the ban is un-needed but that's just my opinion.

Btw, other than random godly mills, like 2 Wulf and 2 draws off Garoth's effect, milling is fine.

[PKpwnage]

You know, I've never ever milled 2 Wulfs with Garoth before.

[Anteres]

It's easy to beat if you're good... which is probably why alot of ppl on pojo ***** so much
i would give you a cookie, but i just ate the last of mine. i don't have any trophies either.

i lol'd at the sacking math. when you attack someone who claims the deck sacks, you have to realize how they're looking at it. they're not going "oh, i've run all the numbers and the deck is just a luck deck", they're complaining about the inherent randomness associated with the deck. mostly in the cases of garoth, wulf, and JD, the LS player can easily get random +2's, or more, depending on what has just happened. a sack as we know it is a random god draw. random god mills work the same way. so why are you people denying that LS sacks? even if you've run the numbers, it all comes down to randomness. It just happens more frequently with LS on account of milling multiple cards at once. all decks sack, but LS does it much more often.

[JRCxyz]

You know, I've never ever milled 2 Wulfs with Garoth before.

That didn't happen to me either, but my opponent did mill 2 Wulf with Celestia. And next game with Lyla. That was crazy.

[retrogamer]

What's with all this crap that JD isn't broken? Only cards I believe are more broken than he is are PoG, GC, Yata and CED. Seriously. The cost is laughable, it can be used multiple times in the same turn, massive attack AND defense points. And to top it all of? There could be an honest backing him up case you try a suicide mission or overtake him with Colossal Fighter.

Everything else is fine in a lightsworn deck. EXCEPT Judgment Dragon. Anyone that says different is in denial. That card either needs to be limited if not banned. Aside from that, Lightsworn is just an interesting tool box based mostly on monster effects and is easy to side against. With JD gone, they are a GOOD deck.

[Ayame Kougyoku]

stuff.

I'd like to point out that Honest is easily one of the most obvious plays in the game, other than the obvious Shrink play. This makes Honest plays HIGHLY susceptible to Book of Moon, and Mind Crush.

Actually, the ENTIRE deck gets skull****ed by a smart player who draws into a Mind Crush or a Trap Dustshoot. Easy reads on certain plays the deck make, and the fact that the deck runs x3 Beckoning Light, x3 Charge just makes things easier.

Obviously this isn't the end-all to LS, but Mind Crush is a very good option against the deck, since most of their plays should be mad obvious to anyone with experience against the deck, or anyone who makes a half-decent read.

Lightsworn are an open book. Read it.

[ih0tfirei]

i would give you a cookie, but i just ate the last of mine. i don't have any trophies either.

i lol'd at the sacking math. when you attack someone who claims the deck sacks, you have to realize how they're looking at it. they're not going "oh, i've run all the numbers and the deck is just a luck deck", they're complaining about the inherent randomness associated with the deck. mostly in the cases of garoth, wulf, and JD, the LS player can easily get random +2's, or more, depending on what has just happened. a sack as we know it is a random god draw. random god mills work the same way. so why are you people denying that LS sacks? even if you've run the numbers, it all comes down to randomness. It just happens more frequently with LS on account of milling multiple cards at once. all decks sack, but LS does it much more often.

This is where i call BS.

Why when LS mill good does it have to be refered to as a sack?

Last i checked the deck wants to mill wulf's, hence why they play three. They also want to draw with garoth, thats why they play a high monster count. Since players use 3 lumina, 3 wulf, and 2 garoth along with CotLB to make sure that they always have the best chance of milling wulf or drawing off garoth, its a sack? Thats absurd.

Tell me why is it called a "sack" when the deck does what its supposed to do sometimes?

Are you telling me im not supposed to mill wulf's or draw with garoth when i tailored my deck to do it? In that case let me take them out of my deck.

[Anteres]

This is where i call BS.

Why when LS mill good does it have to be refered to as a sack?

Last i checked the deck wants to mill wulf's, hence why they play three. They tend not to play 3 anymore because of dead draws. Using 3 left much lower chances of having all wulfs in the deck where you want them. They also want to draw with garoth, thats why they play a high monster count. You can make the odds whatever you want, it's still random in a game like this. Since players use 3 lumina, 3 wulf, and 2 garoth along with CotLB to make sure that they always have the best chance of milling wulf or drawing off garoth, its a sack? Thats absurd.

Tell me why is it called a "sack" when the deck does what its supposed to do sometimes? Because when it happens it is random and sudden, just like a sack draw in the case of any other deck. But, as I did say, it is more frequent. More frequent, but nonetheless random.
At least your misunderstanding of what I said is rather obvious.

[Foenix]

Nobody minds Lightsworns. They're fine. They mind stupid bull**** Judgment Dragon just showing up with no combo required and nuking everything except it's *****-ass self.

[PKpwnage]

At least your misunderstanding of what I said is rather obvious.You're not getting his point.

[Sharpie-ova]

I'm interested why people are pointing out my deck. Its not really got anything to do with the article, I just thought, for fun I should post my build anyway. It wasn't intended to be for competition.



I'm interested to know why you posted such a terrible deck for funsies. You said it yourself, its not even meant to be with the article.

For the life of me, I could not keep reading after that. I could only focus on how poorly built it is. Take that garbage off the first post so more people would take you seriously. As far as I'm concerned, that deck is the article.

It's like you wrote a seemingly articulate piece then pasted in an image of a naked woman with it. Except that deck isn't as close to pleasant.

[EpsilonKage]

I'm interested to know why you posted such a terrible deck for funsies. You said it yourself, its not even meant to be with the article.

For the life of me, I could not keep reading after that. I could only focus on how poorly built it is. Take that garbage off the first post so more people would take you seriously. As far as I'm concerned, that deck is the article.

It's like you wrote a seemingly articulate piece then pasted in an image of a naked woman with it. Except that deck isn't as close to pleasant.

He wouldn't do that. He's gay.

[Mr Hyena]

I'm interested to know why you posted such a terrible deck for funsies. You said it yourself, its not even meant to be with the article.

For the life of me, I could not keep reading after that. I could only focus on how poorly built it is. Take that garbage off the first post so more people would take you seriously. As far as I'm concerned, that deck is the article.

It's like you wrote a seemingly articulate piece then pasted in an image of a naked woman with it. Except that deck isn't as close to pleasant.

Because the debate is meant to be not on the deck itself, but rather the bias against it.

I understand discussing individual cards and such, but its more a reflection on the community than it is the deck.

[AzPharizon]

Not a bad article.

I've been playing Lightsworn since they first were released. When I first started no one cared about the deck it was all about Dark Armed Dragon and Emergency Teleport no one even acknowledged the deck. At the decline of Tele-Dad Lightsworn became popular. The deck was never broken what it is though is misunderstood. Judgment Dragon is not a Lightsworn it is a reward you get for playing that deck, Celestia is much better and she creates the possibility of leading into a Wulf especially if you placed one on top with the plague and she tends to save you from not milling out as Judgment Dragon will do sometimes.

heres a fun combo...

Have a lumina in grave one of the field and 1 in grave lumina pitch for lumina sack for Celestia pitch for lumina pitch for another lightsworn (Garoth) and win.


^_^

[necromonger]

I hate all the LS bias. I never hated LS, sure I played them in the past. I lost to them more than I beat them, but I never hated them.

Now that I'm an LS player all the bs stuff about players saying its an easy deck to play are wrong. LS is just if not more complicated than GBs which I also play. You have to control your milling. Sometimes you take huge risk to try and call bluffs by playing certain cards. Sometimes those risk pay off. Other times they end up costing you the game. Have you ever seen an intense LS match? They are tough. You have to play it right otherwise you'll lose.

LS might be one of the most random decks of all. You're constantly searching and milling. You never know what you're going to mill but you expect it to be good. You're always changing the odds with that. Another thing, LS also can get countered easily. A quick side decking kills LS, that's if the LS player doesn't anticipate it.

All the people bashing LS because they are supposedly luck sack/no brainer have no clue what they're talking about. They're just mad because they suck and cannot beat them. This same thing happens with any top deck. Bad players trash talk about them because the decks are good and they cannot come up with something just as good.

[Sharpie-ova]

Because the debate is meant to be not on the deck itself, but rather the bias against it.

I understand discussing individual cards and such, but its more a reflection on the community than it is the deck.

You missed my point. The fact is that deck detracts from what you're trying to accomplish: to have a debate.

If someone wrote an article that contained x divided by zero = 0 in order to facilitate a math debate, I won't be able to because I cannot take him seriously. I will be too stuck on x divided by zero = 0 . . . and this question will pop into my mind. "Why are you writing an article to start a discussion when you can't even get the simple things right?"

I may have been a bit harsh on my wording but that's one of the general rules when it comes to writing an article.

[Anteres]

You're not getting his point.
Really? Yes, I know the point is mainly to use the effects of cards like wulf and JD to gain advantage, but the speed at which they hit the field is a variable, and it can happen very suddenly, as it sometimes does. It doesn't all the time, but when it does it's usually within 1 turn, 2 at most. I know it's bound to happen, since the deck is built to accommodate these moves, but for it to do so it has to fall under the probability for it happening, which is a random act in and of itself. The fact that that's what the deck is supposed to do only furthers my point that the deck relies on the mills, which put things onto luck and odds. When it pans out, it's usually called a sack by the opponent. People will continue to do this, because it behaves almost exactly like lucksacking late game. All that has been done is putting the odds into numbers. Knowing those numbers doesn't change its massive dependancy on the luck of the mill. I'm standing by my point, because it explains why people profess to hate LS so much, that's all. I'm not one of these people that ***** about it, I'm just showing you how the other side of the argument thinks.

[[Dark]~Squall]

I think the bias comes from players being frustrated that Konami hasn't put JD to one or banned it while continuing to touch everything that can compete with it's deck. For instance, last format LS was right up there topping with Synchro Cat and BWs, yet they still didn't get hit, while BWs lost Gale (granted they did get Vayu, but still...), and Synchro Cat got wrecked. Even the format before that LS was still topping with Tele-DaD and GB, and still didn't get hit. It just seems a bit rediculous to me, especially since JD is most powerful card in the game right now, and is a joke to summon in it's deck themed or not. I can understand that they don't want to kill the deck, but I think putting JD to 1 would be fair and would still allow them to be competitive. They sure had no problem limiting Bestiari and watching GB still be competitive.

And another thing...for all of you keyboard warriors running your mouth about "blah blah they're just butthurt because they lose to JD", get a clue. Anti-LS players have every right to complain, especially one as frustrating to play against as LS. You can say the same thing about players who complained about Yata-Lock, and DSF. Are they all just scrubs who couldn't beat them? No, of course not. Losing because a LS player topped a JD when you had complete control over a match is a joke and has nothing to do with skill at all.

[YanDaMan]

People are biased against lightsworn because they think so highly of themselves being "skilled" players while thinking LS is skilless because of supposedly mindless +1s it generates from the milling. So they somehow convinced themselves that they always lose to luck (good luck for the LS player), and not a good player, which is obviously false.

LS was created with the milling mechanic, and people saw potential in it and took advantage of the milling with cards like Necro Gardna, a card that has zero to do with LS, yet is a staple for the deck. Yeah its a luck based mechanic, or "probability" as TsengFox said, but its still part of the lightsworn overall strategy. People are way too narrow-minded or self consciously egotistical about their own non-existent skill to realize this. Thats why the keep hating on LS.

I will admit that Judgment Dragon is the cause of the majority of the legid haters, because that is really overpowered and too easy to summon. But all the other haters who hate it just because, as h0tfire said, they do what they're suppose to do (milling to your advantage), they are simply idiots.

The End.

[ih0tfirei]

People are biased against lightsworn because they think so highly of themselves being "skilled" players while thinking LS is skilless because of supposedly mindless +1s it generates from the milling. So they somehow convinced themselves that they always lose to luck (good luck for the LS player), and not a good player, which is obviously false.

LS was created with the milling mechanic, and people saw potential in it and took advantage of the milling with cards like Necro Gardna, a card that has zero to do with LS, yet is a staple for the deck. Yeah its a luck based mechanic, or "probability" as TsengFox said, but its still part of the lightsworn overall strategy. People are way too narrow-minded or self consciously egotistical about their own non-existent skill to realize this. Thats why the keep hating on LS.

I will admit that Judgment Dragon is the cause of the majority of the legid haters, because that is really overpowered and too easy to summon. But all the other haters who hate it just because, as h0tfire said, they do what they're suppose to do (milling to your advantage), they are simply idiots.

The End.

+1 for actually getting what i said and using it for your argument.

[TeslaMouse]

The reason people are biased against lightsworns is because
A. They cant afford it
B. They cannot beat them
C. thier deck was touched by the banlist while lightsworns werent.
D. It sacks but so does six sams.
E. Its mostly luck based but hey, what card game doesnt have atleast a little luck involved.

Lightsworns arent my only deck so don't call me biased. People need to get over it and realize that lightsworns arent as dominant (if at all) as much as people think. I mean Blackwings (-2 gale and 3 dsf) took out LS even with ls going untouched. What does that say?

No, Im not saying ls is a bad deck but its not nearly as powerful as people make it out to be. Its true Judgment Dragon is scary as **** to face but deal with it or play pokemon/MTG/world of warcraft.

[retrogamer]

No, Im not saying ls is a bad deck but its not nearly as powerful as people make it out to be. Its true Judgment Dragon is scary as **** to face but deal with it or play pokemon/MTG/world of warcraft.

True, until he gets hit (which judging by what Tewart mentions, it will take a long time if ever) we just gotta deal with it. However, it is the same as talking about DAD. We gotta deal with them; but that does not make them any less troublesome. The fact is, those cards are too powerful. Screw overpowered, those things are broken and NEED to get hit for the game to become healthier. Though hopefully they keep the trend and address even more problems with the next lists.

[ScytheBlade]

Yes, because drawing Laqauri and setting 2 cards takes skill.

It's Chariot, Bottomless, Book of Moon, Waboku, or a combination of both. Next turn he can simply Proving Ground into Bestiari for instant +2.

Later in the game, Test Tiger (which you run 3 of) plus ANY GB = instant Gyzarus. Darius is just as bad.

Recycling Chariots/Proving ground when you're winning isn't hard at all.

GB does not take "more skill" than LS. It's not hard to select which destructive effect you want, you have a complete toolbox.

Additional Comment:

Nobody minds Lightsworns. They're fine. They mind stupid bull**** Judgment Dragon just showing up with no combo required and nuking everything except it's *****-ass self.

OH MY GOD TEST TIGER INTO DARIUS IS SOOO SKILLFUL. PROVING GROUND BESTIARI INTO GYZARUS IS ALSO GOOD.

I draw into any GB, Waboku/Book of Moon, and Proving Ground. That's pretty much game if your opponent has no answer to Waboku.

[Gaving]

Nobody minds Lightsworns. They're fine. They mind stupid bull**** Judgment Dragon just showing up with no combo required and nuking everything except it's *****-ass self.

He speaks the truth.

[Suijin13]

I'm okay with Lightsworns. I can beat Lightsworn with a PC Monarch build. Judgement Dragon annoys me but hell, I can live with it. The one card in any Lightsworn build I cannot stand and will never be able to swayed away from my opinion is mother******* Honest. OMG, Honest, damn, that card is broken as all hell. He enables a Ryko to run over Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon. The **** is that ****? He bounces back to your hand when on the field, just an annoying effect to go with his brokeness. OMG, opponent 2 cards in hand, 3 Honest's in grave. I attack, he chains Beckoning, brings back Honest and drops Honest. ****!!! IT NEEDS TO BE BANNED!

[ih0tfirei]

I'm okay with Lightsworns. I can beat Lightsworn with a PC Monarch build. Judgement Dragon annoys me but hell, I can live with it. The one card in any Lightsworn build I cannot stand and will never be able to swayed away from my opinion is mother******* Honest. OMG, Honest, damn, that card is broken as all hell. He enables a Ryko to run over Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon. The **** is that ****? He bounces back to your hand when on the field, just an annoying effect to go with his brokeness. OMG, opponent 2 cards in hand, 3 Honest's in grave. I attack, he chains Beckoning, brings back Honest and drops Honest. ****!!! IT NEEDS TO BE BANNED!

Bad player^^^

honest is no more broken then d.prison

[The Kotarou]

Sorry, OP, for not reading the entire first post. Too much for a first post ... sometimes a little goes a long way ...

... anyway, from what I read this is my response: LS still has not won a big tourney. Until it does, it won't get any respect. Besides, due to the way the build HAS to be for LS, too much luck is involved. That explains why it doesn't get a ton of respect and why it probably will never win anything big consistently.

[Suijin13]

Bad player^^^

honest is no more broken then d.prison

D. Prison, you can see coming, Honest is a little harder because it comes from the hand.

[Euphoria]

Yes, because drawing Laqauri and setting 2 cards takes skill.

It's Chariot, Bottomless, Book of Moon, Waboku, or a combination of both. Next turn he can simply Proving Ground into Bestiari for instant +2.

If I may kind of counter your logic here, when I'm not reading Storm, I'll very often summon Laquari with one or two backrows, and often only one, or sometimes even none of the set cards will do anything, but apparently players like you will leap to that conclusion which works in benefit for me. So yes, please try to keep assuming this, and I'll continue to skillfully bluff a backrow occasionally.

[KingOfKings]

Stopped reading after the bad build.

A 5 year old can win with LS with great mills and luck. However, their luck runs out and they lose. A great ls play can go far through the tournament.

However the only reason LS has not won is because not of the builds, is because of side decking, luck, coinsidence, and consistency.

The builds you see that make it to the top 16 make it because of their standard builds. These trash builds like on post one are never seen because they don't make it past day one.

Takes skill to play a ls deck properly but to be honest when it comes to it the deck is basic autopiliot if the player is half decent. Because if the guy has game and is half decent and sees it, well there is nothing you can do when they get charge, and 2 wulfs out for gg.


The truth is any deck where it has enough combo's to end the game in 1-3 turns means its less skilled than a deck that takes more thought on how to win the game. Ls is a deck with many game ending combo's where even a rookie can see a game winning play once in a while, even if he is a full blown idiot. While a deck that is more skilled with less game winning combo's takes skill to know when to go for the combo's and win the game with the decks design on when to go for game. Because of the low amount of possible wins with the decks cards, it means paying attention more and not just playing cards and getting lucky but using the right situations and then going for it which means more skill.


My pro post for you all. lol

[Euphoria]

Bad player^^^

honest is no more broken then d.prison

I can't attack you with my Gadget and use D-Prison on your monster and inflict X damage to you.

[ScytheBlade]

I can't attack you with my Gadget and use D-Prison on your monster and inflict X damage to you.

I can't Honest if there are no monsters on the field. I also can't honest if there's Waboku/Armor Master/Colossal Fighter/cannot be destroyed by battle effects. Honest doesn't work if D-Prison/Macro cosmos on field. Not to mention it's easier to bait out than D-Prison.

D-Prison just gets rid of the monster and REMOVES IT FROM PLAY. You can't use Blizzard on that Bora, sorry.

D-Prison has 2 easy requirements:

Set.
Monster attacks.

Honest has 3:

LIGHT monster on FIELD.
ATK position.
Must be able to send to Graveyard.

I will agree that Honest/D-Prison should go to 2.

Additional Comment:

If I may kind of counter your logic here, when I'm not reading Storm, I'll very often summon Laquari with one or two backrows, and often only one, or sometimes even none of the set cards will do anything, but apparently players like you will leap to that conclusion which works in benefit for me. So yes, please try to keep assuming this, and I'll continue to skillfully bluff a backrow occasionally.

Yes, totally. You're going to set Heavy Storm and MST.

Everything else does something, like:

Book of Moon
Waboku
Chariot
Mirror Force
Torrential Tribute
Call of the Haunted (CoTH Gyzarus for +6*? YES PLEASE.)

First 3 are run in multiples. Any of these activate when you summon/attack a monster, prepare for Proving Ground/Test Tiger/Tag into Bestiari next turn.

Requirements for CotH Gyzarus combo? Gyz in Grave + CoTH set (2 cards total).

SS Gyzarus (+1).
Destroy 2 cards (+2).
Attack into monster (+1).
Tag out (+2).

Total of +6. Compare to Judgment Dragon, which has a stricter summoning requirement (NOMI monster) and almost never gets +6 (happens once in a blue moon).

Glads are stupidly auto-pilot, even a half-decent person can Contact into Gyzarus. After that, Contact again into Herk and win (YAY CHARIOT RECYCLE!).

[Euphoria]

I can't Honest if there are no monsters on the field. I also can't honest if there's Waboku/Armor Master/Colossal Fighter/cannot be destroyed by battle effects. Honest doesn't work if D-Prison/Macro cosmos on field. Not to mention it's easier to bait out than D-Prison.

D-Prison just gets rid of the monster and REMOVES IT FROM PLAY. You can't use Blizzard on that Bora, sorry.

D-Prison has 2 easy requirements:

Set.
Monster attacks.

Honest has 3:

LIGHT monster on FIELD.
ATK position.
Must be able to send to Graveyard.

I will agree that Honest/D-Prison should go to 2.

...Did you just say D-Prison should go to 2?

[iWank]

Let's start off small...

1.) Cold Wave, Crush, an Solemn were not core cards in any popular LS deck...Crush was to some extent, but LS got off far better with this being banned than not being hit.

2.) Is luck not just favored probability?

[Red Ryu]

The only card I want banned in LS by having played the deck myself is Judgment Dragon.

That card makes OTKs much more probable.

The rest of the deck is balanced and should be left alone.

[nyra90]

wasn't card of safe return a big player in lightsworn?

[ScytheBlade]

...Did you just say D-Prison should go to 2?

Sorry, let me rephrase that.

If Honest goes to 2, D-Prison should too.

The only thing Honest has over D-Prison is that it inflicts Battle Damage. D-Prison makes up for that because it doesn't need a monster on field and wrecks Stardust/Colossal. Also, who can deny the REMOVE effect?

[Red Ryu]

That was banned more so due to X sabers drawing insane amounts of cards.

[Japonman]

Here is my problem with LS

1. The Ban list didn't do much. If you think it did, I strongly disagree. The only thing I saw hurting LS was CCV, just made Necro and Plague not as good.

2. JD, a card that blows up the world that leaves him standing for a petty cost that is at 2. Sure LS didn't win a jump, but we saw over half of them were in the top 16. Obviously is because of JD.

3. The ban list nukes all other decks but LS, why? Just because LS have to win a deck before Konami decides to limit JD. "Yeah put Demise at 1", "JD, he's cool keep him at 2."

4. They are getting more support in Stardust Overdrive. Is that really necessary? A deck that has a boss monster really need more support?

5. It's clear Konami is all about the Benjamins, so they reprint all the LS stuff
so everyone can play it like they did w/Allure and Dark Creator for BW. And we see a deck that requires no skill (imo) that so many kids are going to be playing. It will just get annoying after a while.

That's why I'm biased against LS. More support for a deck that has a win condition at 2, reprints means everyone wants to play it and no balance at all. (W/JD at 2)

It's like Konami trying to push LS to win a jump or something.

[delpos]

It's like Konami trying to push LS to win a jump or something.

It's either they win a Jump once or twice (they've got the consistent topping ratio down) or they dominate Japan before there are any real "hard" hits.

Too bad they ignore European results, eh?

[Japonman]

Its ridiculous. 9/16 isn't good for you Konami!? "Ban Demise and put JD at 4."

[secheck162]

I like the article-good job. Personally I agree with you for the most part.

However, play the deck this format to all you that claim Lightsworn is bad, the deck is good; it's been made a slight bit cheaper so you won't keep complaining, AS MUCH (although those who worked to get the deck are. however I traded but I dont care. I would rather more people have these cards); here's a rough draft of a good build;

2 Judgment Dragon
3 Celestia, Lightsworn Angel
3 Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner
2 Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress
2 Wulf, Lightsworn Beast
2 Aurkus, Lightsworn Druid(I prefer 2nd Aurkus over the lone Jain or Ehren, or 2nd Garoth)
1 Garoth, Lightsworn Warrior
1 Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter
3 Honest
3 Necro Gardna
1 Plaguespreader Zombie
1 Blackwing-Gale the Whirlwind Allows for Arcanite, Black Rose, Armor Master, extra LV6's, even LV5's like Catastor.

3 Charge of the Light Brigade
3 Solar Recharge
2 Gold Sarcophagus
1 Heavy Storm
1 Mystical Space Typhoon

2 Beckoning Light
2 Bottomless Trap Hole
1 Torrential Tribute
1 Mirror Force
1 Call of the Haunted

[Z҉A҉L҉G҉O̚̕̚]

Great read. Much better than your last "article".

[PKpwnage]

I'm okay with Lightsworns. I can beat Lightsworn with a PC Monarch build. Judgement Dragon annoys me but hell, I can live with it. The one card in any Lightsworn build I cannot stand and will never be able to swayed away from my opinion is mother******* Honest. OMG, Honest, damn, that card is broken as all hell. He enables a Ryko to run over Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon. The **** is that ****? He bounces back to your hand when on the field, just an annoying effect to go with his brokeness. OMG, opponent 2 cards in hand, 3 Honest's in grave. I attack, he chains Beckoning, brings back Honest and drops Honest. ****!!! IT NEEDS TO BE BANNED!You seem butthurt about not being able to make a read to save your life.

[Suijin13]

You seem butthurt about not being able to make a read to save your life.

I hate that word...

Read's do help...

[PKpwnage]

I hate that word...

Read's do help...
I'm going to look past your grammatical error and say that Honest is incredibly easy to read, much more so than Dimensional Prison.

[Red Ryu]

I'm going to look past your grammatical error and say that Honest is incredibly easy to read, much more so than Dimensional Prison.

It tricks people who don't know the archetype or heck even light decks in general.

Wanna play around honest? Use battle floaters or shift the Lightsworn to defense, seriously D.D. Warrior Lady laughs at Honest.

[Kratos123]

I do like this article and i find the probability to be a key factor with lightsworn. Yes lightsworn can mill their good cards. BUT with that same probability as the deck gets smaller there is then a higher chance of drawing sertain cards you may need. As you said a good lightsworn builder can and will take this into consideration. As for cards like gragonith i dont understand why people dont use him. In my oppinion it is a fantastic beat stick that can get realy big realy fast. Yes there is the factor of "IDTE" but so does everything els. In my oppinion Lightsworn is a good deck (i dont run one but my friend does) it shouldnt be taken for grandted. With that said aswell its not the best deck in the world. But i also believe there is no unstopable deck built out there :)

[Xeros.]

I agree with your article, TsengFox.

[PsyKnz]

I agree with most of what you're saying Tseng (except the banlist stuff, where you're very wrong for the reasons that have been stated numerous times already) but the article was poorly written. You made a lot of statements but your support for them was pretty lacking or misinformed. You wern't wrong, you just didn't do a good job of explaining your ideas.

My 2 cents on LS: It is probably the easiest deck in the format to read and play against. Losing to LS tends to be the fault of the other player, who didn't understand how to disrupt the plays they were up against. People just need to play the matchup a lot more to get used to when to set what. In my opinion the most broken part of LS is their easy access to necro gardna. If they get 2 necro in the grave in the first two turns, you're in for one hell of an uphill climb. Necro forces you to waste removal, over extend, or play at the LS players pace, all of the above options are terrible.

[Mr Hyena]

Great read. Much better than your last "article".

What was wrong with my last article? It was an unbiased look into the subject.

I do appreciate feedback.

I agree with most of what you're saying Tseng (except the banlist stuff, where you're very wrong for the reasons that have been stated numerous times already) but the article was poorly written. You made a lot of statements but your support for them was pretty lacking or misinformed. You wern't wrong, you just didn't do a good job of explaining your ideas.


I didn't explain my ideas much because really, the deck is not something I run. But I did want to do this thread to try and calm down the anti-ls madness.

[Euphoria]

Sorry, let me rephrase that.

If Honest goes to 2, D-Prison should too.

The only thing Honest has over D-Prison is that it inflicts Battle Damage. D-Prison makes up for that because it doesn't need a monster on field and wrecks Stardust/Colossal. Also, who can deny the REMOVE effect?

Apparently a lot of people, D-Prison hasn't top 16'ed a SJC since December iirc.

[YanDaMan]

Why would D.Prison be hit?

Honest at 2 is a lot realistic.

And LOL @ the Honest vs D.Prison argument. All they argue is time of activation and requirements, they didnt say ANTHING about ways to DISRUPT them:

Honest: Mind Crush or D.Fissure, and the rare instance of DDV, thats it.
D.Prison: ANY S/T hate gets rid of it. Lyla/Breaker/other monster effects gets rid of it. Non-chainable to destruction, vulnerable on the field.

Yeah, great comparisson.

[PKpwnage]

Why would D.Prison be hit?

Honest at 2 is a lot realistic.

And LOL @ the Honest vs D.Prison argument. All they argue is time of activation and requirements, they didnt say ANTHING about ways to DISRUPT them:

Honest: Mind Crush or D.Fissure, and the rare instance of DDV, thats it. Book of Moon/D Prison/Force/Tomato/DDWL/etc
D.Prison: ANY S/T hate gets rid of it. Lyla/Breaker/other monster effects gets rid of it. Non-chainable to destruction, vulnerable on the field.

Yeah, great comparisson.Indeed .

[Mr Hyena]

Edited the article to add in some numbers. Credits go to Raven Tobias for them.

[YanDaMan]

Indeed .

How would Book of Moon stop Honest?

How would D.Prison stop honest when they are attacking into your monster most of the time?

Keep the arguments realistic please.

[iWank]

How would Book of Moon stop Honest?

How would D.Prison stop honest when they are attacking into your monster most of the time?

Keep the arguments realistic please.

...seriously....?

[secheck162]

How would Book of Moon stop Honest?

How would D.Prison stop honest when they are attacking into your monster most of the time?

Keep the arguments realistic please. Book of Moon flips the monster face down, stopping the attack.

Dimensional Prison stops the attack they make on you with the Honest.

Are you really that stupid?

[Japonman]

How would Book of Moon stop Honest?

How would D.Prison stop honest when they are attacking into your monster most of the time?

Keep the arguments realistic please.

1. Because Book of Moon doesn't place the monster face down, so Honest doesn't recognize it. =\

2. D.Prison doesn't stop Honest because when the monster declares an attack it doesn't get removed. =\

My problem w/LS is not the milling it's

1. JD at 2
2. More support that is not necessary.
3. Reprints making this deck annoying to play everywhere.

LS milling Wulf's and Necro's aren't the problem, for the deck does what it is designed to do. Sometimes they Mill it sometimes it's dead in their hand. We gotta accept both good and bad of the mill. We of course like whatever pleases us.

[EpsilonKage]

Note: The only way Book of Moon stops Honest is to activate it on the monster that Honest would be applied to BEFORE Honest could activate its effect. And that's only if you're reading your opponent correctly that they do in fact have 1-3 Honest in hand. It's an inconvenient way to get around Honest, and should hardly be brought up in this argument. A waste of a Book, if you ask me.

[PKpwnage]

Lumina attacks Goyo.

Book.

[xc_hawk]

my two cents/rambling:

Good article Tsengfox, although I can say that I sympathize with those players so frustrated with LS. I guess the beef that so many players have with lightsworn is that they got damn-near everything as far as a theme goes. It makes the deck extremely hard to approach, as they have an answer to just about anything.
breaker-type monster? check
generic destruction flip monster? check
draw card? check
RotA? check
monster-based revival/swarm? check
tribute monster that outclasses monarchs, the dominant tribute engine in the game? check
battle phase domination card? check
battle plase negation/OTK prevention? check
a basic deck structure that allows for the siding of royal decree? check

and to top it all off, a boss monster that outclasses much of the banlist


I hope nobody is arguing that LS is unbeatable, because clearly otherwise has been proven. However, there is no true playstyle that can be used to fight LS, as the deck is so flexible. GB's can be beaten by heading off their monster summoning, as freshly summoned monsters don't float. Blackwings can be beaten with battle negation, as long as you can fend off icarus attack. Chaos, Hopeless Dragon, Plants, etc all have a weak point to try to abuse, but interesting enough, LS seems to really lack it. Oppression gets knocked out easily by lyla/ryko/celestia, macro and dfissure meet a similar end, stardust gets run over by honest/JD, heavy field setups tend to be wiped out by celestia/JD, and speed matches tend to end in LS's favor.

So why does it lose? It's certainly not a lack of answers, the theme has most everything in spades. LS loses when it doesn't mill out right, when they don't open up proactively, when the player misplays, when the build is bad. Yes, it can be a matter of probability, and sometimes that probability betrays the deck.

You rarely beat Lightsworn through your own deck's means, Lightsworn beats itself.

[EpsilonKage]

Lumina attacks Goyo.

Book.

Yes.

Why bring that example up? Anyone with a brain knows to stop something like that from happening.

[JRCxyz]

Yes.

Why bring that example up? Anyone with a brain knows to stop something like that from happening.

Well, since everyone knows that anyone with a brain would stop something like that from happening, a good player can capitalize on that fact and make you waste your Book Of Moon that is, in my opinion, of great importance in the Lightsworn matchup.

[ScytheBlade]

Note: The only way Book of Moon stops Honest is to activate it on the monster that Honest would be applied to BEFORE Honest could activate its effect. And that's only if you're reading your opponent correctly that they do in fact have 1-3 Honest in hand. It's an inconvenient way to get around Honest, and should hardly be brought up in this argument. A waste of a Book, if you ask me.

Book stops the milling.

No mill = GG Lightsworns.

Seriously, get D-Fissure out early. It's almost game right there, since the card shuts down 70%+ of the deck.

Lightsworns are the most conditional deck, and also the most subsceptible to side-decking.

Additional Comment:

Well, since everyone knows that anyone with a brain would stop something like that from happening, a good player can capitalize on that fact and make you waste your Book Of Moon that is, in my opinion, of great importance in the Lightsworn matchup.

No more than GB setting 2 face-downs, which is MUCH more deadlier.

You can either attack into a Waboku, or get hit by Gyzarus next turn.

[PKpwnage]

Book stops the milling.

No mill = GG Lightsworns.

Seriously, get D-Fissure out early. It's almost game right there, since the card shuts down 70%+ of the deck.

Lightsworns are the most conditional deck, and also the most subsceptible to side-decking.You say this as if LS players don't side at all. You draw Fissure, I draw Twister.

[gigan45]

You say this as if LS players don't side at all. You draw Fissure, I draw Twister.

I like fairy wind better, but same idea. Good LS players side for your side

[PKpwnage]

I use both, along with Dust Tornado.

[PJ]

I'm just gonna bump this because of the recent SJC victory by an LS variant.

It seems the bias against the deck is still present.

[Shinobi-Ken]

1. Because Book of Moon doesn't place the monster face down, so Honest doesn't recognize it. =\

2. D.Prison doesn't stop Honest because when the monster declares an attack it doesn't get removed. =\

My problem w/LS is not the milling it's

1. JD at 2
2. More support that is not necessary.
3. Reprints making this deck annoying to play everywhere.

LS milling Wulf's and Necro's aren't the problem, for the deck does what it is designed to do. Sometimes they Mill it sometimes it's dead in their hand. We gotta accept both good and bad of the mill. We of course like whatever pleases us.

Actually milling Wulf's and Necro's ARE the problem! This is the way I see it. LS are an annoyance because of the milling mechanic. It's not JD. JD is broken in the deck because of the cards that enable him to come out by the 2nd turn. If we REALLY want to correct the problem of LS, all you have to do is something like this:

Ban or Limit Charge of the Light Brigade
Limit or Semi-Limit Wulf

With those changes LS will be crippled enough to make the deck manageable by other decks. Wulf's popping up early game off of a Charge of the Light Brigade mill are brutal. That along with the fact that they can dump Necro's, Vayu's, and Plague's are the problem.

When JD was at 3 and Charge wasn't released, LS wasn't topping or winning. Yes Tele-DAD was the deck of the time, but I just want to point out that JD wasn't the problem because he wasn't as consistent to get out.

And I just want to ask why would Konami restrict RoTA but keep CoTLB at 3? They really make no sense sometimes.

[TeslaMouse]

Actually milling Wulf's and Necro's ARE the problem! This is the way I see it. LS are an annoyance because of the milling mechanic. It's not JD. JD is broken in the deck because of the cards that enable him to come out by the 2nd turn. If we REALLY want to correct the problem of LS, all you have to do is something like this:

Ban or Limit Charge of the Light Brigade
Limit or Semi-Limit Wulf

With those changes LS will be crippled enough to make the deck manageable by other decks. Wulf's popping up early game off of a Charge of the Light Brigade mill are brutal. That along with the fact that they can dump Necro's, Vayu's, and Plague's are the problem.

When JD was at 3 and Charge wasn't released, LS wasn't topping or winning. Yes Tele-DAD was the deck of the time, but I just want to point out that JD wasn't the problem because he wasn't as consistent to get out.

And I just want to ask why would Konami restrict RoTA but keep CoTLB at 3? They really make no sense sometimes.

That maybe a little too much. Just limit beckoning light and monster riencarnation. That way if JD gets milled, it will be harder to add back to your hand.

[Jynxsan]

I don't think the bias of the Lightsworns will go away.

[JDGloom]

I think there's a big flaw in the premise here. Lightsworn hasn't gathered nearly as much hate as past decks like DaD Return and Cyber-Stein gathered in their times. Heck, I think there's actually less complaining about LS than there was about TeleDAD.

-JD

Additional Comment:

And I just want to ask why would Konami restrict RoTA but keep CoTLB at 3? They really make no sense sometimes.

Probably because Charge doesn't get you Stratos, which given the timing of the clamp-down on Reinforcement of the Army, was probably the driving force behind that decision.

-JD

[DarthLuigi36]

Here's my problem with them. I've been playing against them a lot recently.

1. JD at 2. Yes, that's probably everybody's reasoning for hating them. But I'll explain a little better. JD is at two, while Celestia, Lyla, Ryko are still at 3 each. That is a ridiculous amount of destruction, even without JD. With Solar Recharge, Charge of the Light Brigade, and Beckoning Light, you can search it out or retrieve what you need very easily. Judgment Dragon is just ridiculous when you add him into the equation. If LS didn't have so much destruction already, JD would not be nearly as bad as he is, because he'd be their only destructive effect. It's stupid to pile JD onto the rest though.

2. You can rarely attack Lightsworn players. Necro Gardna and Honest basically allow a Lightsworn player to control the entire Battle Phase. And, the things that counter one do not counter the other. Kycoo stops Necro Gardna, and loses to Honest. Book of Moon stops Honest, but your monster is blocked by Gardna. Nothing counters both simultaneously (Except Light and Darkness Dragon, who is weakened and killed by them both, or Angel 07 lol). Beckoning Light again makes Honest even worse, while also dumping Necro Gardnas from the hand if needed.

3. Wulf and Garoth. I challenge anyone to tell me where the skill is in Wulf or Garoth. Milling Wulf off is not skill. Foolish Burial is not skill. Topdecking it for Plaguespreader hardly is skillful. Wulf is, by definition, a luck-based card 99% of the time. And it's freaking huge too. Then there's Garoth, who follows the same vein. At least Garoth is useless without another LS out, but drawing 1-2 cards for NO ACTUAL REASON is not skillfull.

[Jynxsan]

I don't think LS bias is really justified. At most people complain is JD but that is really nothing compare to synchrocat or Teledad. The stats are people moving away from LS in tourneyments....The only real complaint I had been addressed by Konami in the reprints.

Charge does not need a limited perhaps semi but even extreme....that is my opinion

[tecphonwoelrogy]

Great solid article. It does seam that a top deck or more dominant deck of a format is always the one deck that gets the most hatred. I myself am not a fan of Lightsworn or any of the other top decks of the format as I feel they all are very simular in how they are built requiring no to little skill to play. I may be wrong to some degree, but all top decks of a format seam to be built the same and built for one reason; to win. It is much easier to spend money to duplicate a sucessful deck that someone else has built. Sure there may be very minor changes in each deck and the Side Deck, but most top decks of any format are the same. There is no fun, little skill or no creativity in building and running the same deck everyone else does and wil not play a top deck of the format.

Example: I have recently decided to build a Gladiatot Beast deck to see just how easy it is to play. I have never had any experience with this deck other then what I have read online. By turn three I easily won with Gladiator Beast Heraklinos with Royal Decree after summoning Gladiator Beast Gyazarus by turn two. Doesn't that say how easy it is to build any top deck of this format involving no or little skill?

Yes, I agree that it may seam like luck rather then probability of a deck to draw the right cards needed in a situation or to win, but doesn't it seam like Lightsworn always manage to summon Judgment Dragon when it is least expected or when you are going to win next turn? Solemn Judgment is currently limited, but it doesn't matter if Judgment Dragon is negated and destroyed when any Ligyhtsworn player can simply summon a second for free and pay nothing but 1000 life points to win. If Dark Armed Dragon is limited, but less powerful then Judgment Dragon or Gladiator Beast Gyazarus, then explain why they are still not limited.

Here's my problem with them. I've been playing against them a lot recently.

1. JD at 2. Yes, that's probably everybody's reasoning for hating them. But I'll explain a little better. JD is at two, while Celestia, Lyla, Ryko are still at 3 each. That is a ridiculous amount of destruction, even without JD. With Solar Recharge, Charge of the Light Brigade, and Beckoning Light, you can search it out or retrieve what you need very easily. Judgment Dragon is just ridiculous when you add him into the equation. If LS didn't have so much destruction already, JD would not be nearly as bad as he is, because he'd be their only destructive effect. It's stupid to pile JD onto the rest though.

2. You can rarely attack Lightsworn players. Necro Gardna and Honest basically allow a Lightsworn player to control the entire Battle Phase. And, the things that counter one do not counter the other. Kycoo stops Necro Gardna, and loses to Honest. Book of Moon stops Honest, but your monster is blocked by Gardna. Nothing counters both simultaneously (Except Light and Darkness Dragon, who is weakened and killed by them both, or Angel 07 lol). Beckoning Light again makes Honest even worse, while also dumping Necro Gardnas from the hand if needed.

3. Wulf and Garoth. I challenge anyone to tell me where the skill is in Wulf or Garoth. Milling Wulf off is not skill. Foolish Burial is not skill. Topdecking it for Plaguespreader hardly is skillful. Wulf is, by definition, a luck-based card 99% of the time. And it's freaking huge too. Then there's Garoth, who follows the same vein. At least Garoth is useless without another LS out, but drawing 1-2 cards for NO ACTUAL REASON is not skillfull.

All true statments. All top decks have more advantage through either searching the deck, card desctruction or both. Simply all top decks have greater advantage over other decks that can achive the same gaol, but actually require skill to do so.

[Ridders]

Then there's Garoth, who follows the same vein. At least Garoth is useless without another LS out, but drawing 1-2 cards for NO ACTUAL REASON is not skillfull.

*facepalm*

Hell forbid you have to run a themed/specific deck to get the advantage out of it.

What did you want, a generic free +1/2 so you can chuck it in all decks?

Unskillful? lol.

[DarthLuigi36]

*facepalm*

Hell forbid you have to run a themed/specific deck to get the advantage out of it.

What did you want, a generic free +1/2 so you can chuck it in all decks?

Unskillful? lol.

Generating advantage for the theme is fine. Things like Lyla or Ehren or Ryko are great cards that generate advantage and help Lightsworn be a good theme. Garoth though, you don't actually do anything to get his effect. You just toss him out there and draw 1-4 cards, or even more, easily at the end of your turn just by having a couple Lightsworn. And if his effect fails, you haven't actually lost anything. There's no player interaction in the least with his effect, there's little or no setup. Just "I might get to draw some cards without trying".

Wether it's able to be chucked into any deck isn't the point, the topic is why people dislike LS.

[tecphonwoelrogy]

*facepalm*

Hell forbid you have to run a themed/specific deck to get the advantage out of it.

What did you want, a generic free +1/2 so you can chuck it in all decks?

Unskillful? lol.

I wonder why Destiny Hero - Disk Commander was banned then since it too is themed based.

Very easy to spot a "netdecker" as they agrue in support of their deck with a passion. Money can do that to you.

[JDGloom]

I wonder why Destiny Hero - Disk Commander was banned then since it too is themed based.

Garoth's level of success is directly determined by how dedicated you are to the theme. Disk Commander however, was part of a splashable 6-7 card draw engine that often rewarded off-theme cards instead of on-theme cards (Call, Premature, et cetera).

Lots of people play dedicated LS decks. Very few play dedicated Destiny Hero decks. That's the difference.

-JD

[Ridders]

I wonder why Destiny Hero - Disk Commander was banned then since it too is themed based.

Very easy to spot a "netdecker" as they agrue in support of their deck with a passion. Money can do that to you.

Thats strange, I checked my post but I don't see any hint of where I mentioned Disk Commander?

Oh right, your applying what I said to something irrelevant given that the topic is all about LS and LS only.

You can stop being an ass now for making assumptions. Or am I now allowed to flame you for no real reason ;D

Generating advantage for the theme is fine. Things like Lyla or Ehren or Ryko are great cards that generate advantage and help Lightsworn be a good theme. Garoth though, you don't actually do anything to get his effect. You just toss him out there and draw 1-4 cards, or even more, easily at the end of your turn just by having a couple Lightsworn. And if his effect fails, you haven't actually lost anything. There's no player interaction in the least with his effect, there's little or no setup. Just "I might get to draw some cards without trying".

Wether it's able to be chucked into any deck isn't the point, the topic is why people dislike LS.

You have to either Normal Summon him, or use your Lumina's effect on him, so yes you do have to do something.

Drawing 1-4 cards is dependant on what you have on the field and whether you'll actually draw something or not. Or if the extra mills will lead you to decking out quicker, as after a point. You won't be able to fill your field with LS unless you got victory guarenteed or you'll lose by decking yourself out.

[JDGloom]

Very easy to spot a "netdecker" as they agrue in support of their deck with a passion. Money can do that to you.

This is a pretty naive statement, and contributed nothing to your post. The fact is, you didn't understand the difference between the two situations you were comparing. Man up and keep it clean.

-JD

[Ridders]

I also like how I am being called a 'netdecker' for defending Garoth.

Not JD, not Celestia, not Charge.

Garoth :rolleyes:

The bias is strong in this one.

[DarthLuigi36]

You have to either Normal Summon him, or use your Lumina's effect on him, so yes you do have to do something.
OK, sorry. I don't consider using a Normal Summon to be much of a "doing something". Lumina's effect, also is ******edly easy to do. But that's my method of thinking, I'll give you that.

Drawing 1-4 cards is dependant on what you have on the field "Dependant on what you have out" isn't really an issue though. It's stupidly easy to get at least one Lightsworn with Garoth out. We've already mentioned Lumina. Necro Gardna and Honest make it easy to keep at least one Lightsworn in play. And of course things like Call of the Haunted to revive or Bottomless to protect. Getting Garoth with another LS is a mostly non-issue.
and whether you'll actually draw something or not.And if it fails, you haven't lost anything, since Garoth takes no investment to use. You haven't left yourself vulnerable, since Garoth is huge. There's little or no drawback to it, but massive gains if it works.

Or if the extra mills will lead you to decking out quicker, as after a point. You won't be able to fill your field with LS unless you got victory guarenteed or you'll lose by decking yourself out.I honestly have seen good LS players deck out maybe a dozen times total in the entire time since LODT has been released. That is very rarely an issue (At least in my experience), since by the time they've milled enough to be close to decking out, things like JD, Lumina, Beckoning Light, and Monster Reincarnation just become more and more powerful and usually end the game. If Garoth is going to make them deck out and lose, they were likely going to lose that game anyway.

Additional Comment:

I also like how I am being called a 'netdecker' for defending Garoth.

Not JD, not Celestia, not Charge.

Garoth :rolleyes:

The bias is strong in this one.


ROFL. That's what you get for being a netdecker.;)

[StormVyper Zera]

The rage against Garoth and Wulf in here is freaking hysterical. Garoth, as stated, is there to reward people who are dedicated to the Lightsworn theme and their self-milling engine. You're not supposed to have to do anything, because he's supposed to just sit there and give you freebies. Being angry about Garoth milling or Wulf getting free dropped is the equivalent of getting mad at Gladiator Beasts for tagging in/out and gaining effects for doing it. It's what the cards are designed to do, and they are meant to reward you for using the theme.

[ultrabro77]

The rage against Garoth and Wulf in here is freaking hysterical. Garoth, as stated, is there to reward people who are dedicated to the Lightsworn theme and their self-milling engine. You're not supposed to have to do anything, because he's supposed to just sit there and give you freebies. Being angry about Garoth milling or Wulf getting free dropped is the equivalent of getting mad at Gladiator Beasts for tagging in/out and gaining effects for doing it. It's what the cards are designed to do, and they are meant to reward you for using the theme.

except the difference is GBs have to attack in order to tag out in order to get those "rewards" when LS can just activate their draw or search card, and get a free wulf or 2 or necros in the grave because of it, they can also just sit on the field with lumina and garoth and continue to get plusses by doing nothing

[PKpwnage]

Lightsworns put you on a clock to "win now or lose."

[DarthLuigi36]

The rage against Garoth and Wulf in here is freaking hysterical. Garoth, as stated, is there to reward people who are dedicated to the Lightsworn theme and their self-milling engine. You're not supposed to have to do anything, because he's supposed to just sit there and give you freebies. Being angry about Garoth milling or Wulf getting free dropped is the equivalent of getting mad at Gladiator Beasts for tagging in/out and gaining effects for doing it. It's what the cards are designed to do, and they are meant to reward you for using the theme.

Except Gladiator Beasts require you to actually DO something. You have to attack, live through the battle, and then tag out (Or, you have to have Test Tiger in hand.). If the Gladiator you want to tag into is dead or in your hand, it doesn't work so well.

Test Tiger is like getting a freebie, except is a completely dead card without other GBs. Garoth is not dead without other LS, as he is a huge beatstick. Wulf is mostly crap if you draw it, but LS have plenty of ways to make use of it such as Solar Recharge, Lumina, or Beckoning Light. There's no way to make a use out of a dead Test Tiger except setting it to chump block.

There's no "random free stuff" in Gladiator Beasts, except maybe Gyzarus, which can a big minus to yourself if he gets killed/countered. There's no drawback like that to Garoth.

"Freebies" are annoying, and again, this is a thread of "why the anti-LS bias?"

[StormVyper Zera]

except the difference is GBs have to attack in order to tag out in order to get those "rewards" when LS can just activate their draw or search card, and get a free wulf or 2 or necros in the grave because of it, they can also just sit on the field with lumina and garoth and continue to get plusses by doing nothing

The difference is the more Lightsworn mill and are rewarded for it, the less cards there are in the deck, and those "rewards" start to turn into a liability. A tag in for Gladiators is never a bad thing. The fact still remains is they both reward the player for using the theme, and complaining about it doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the Gladiator Beast comparison, go ahead and swap it with Blackwings. One successful summon gets you a volley of special summons.

[PKpwnage]

Except Gladiator Beasts require you to actually DO something. You have to attack, live through the battle, and then tag out (Or, you have to have Test Tiger in hand.). If the Gladiator you want to tag into is dead or in your hand, it doesn't work so well. Lightsworns require you to win within a few turns. There is no "win via attrition" with LS. You win now, or lose no matter what you do.

Test Tiger is like getting a freebie, except is a completely dead card without other GBs. Garoth is not dead without other LS, as he is a huge beatstick. Wulf is mostly crap if you draw it, but LS have plenty of ways to make use of it such as Solar Recharge, Lumina, or Beckoning Light. There's no way to make a use out of a dead Test Tiger except setting it to chump block. Gladiator Proving Ground. If a LS player is holding Lumina or Recharge, Wulf isn't really "dead," now is he?

There's no "random free stuff" in Gladiator Beasts, except maybe Gyzarus, which can a big minus to yourself if he gets killed/countered. There's no drawback like that to Garoth. Except you still get to kill two cards with Gyzarus, making him a 2:2 at worst, and a 2:3 in your favor if they have to use a BTH you didn't target.

"Freebies" are annoying, and again, this is a thread of "why the anti-LS bias?"Why the anti-LS bias? People like you.

[Zaffy]

The thing is, and Correct me if I'm wrong, but LS have some of the best monsters in the game for their theme.

A more versatile Zombie master (can discard anything)
A Man eater bug which can target anything
A cyber dragon which is summoned with no disadvantage caused, and is summoned from the decks main effect (milling)
A ddraw
A super freakin' amazing (broken) Boss monster
A card which allows a lightmonster to beat anything.
The best monarch in the game (Celestia)
A draw card from milling
A searcher for pretty much any of their monsters.

Heck, they even have COTH, and scrap iron scarecrow which no one uses.

[DarthLuigi36]

Why the anti-LS bias? People like you.

lol <3

Lightsworns require you to win within a few turns. There is no "win via attrition" with LS. You win now, or lose no matter what you do.So what? Require you to win in a turn? Oh no, my broken as all hell cards that I can run multiples of certainly can't do that.

Gladiator Proving Ground. If a LS player is holding Lumina or Recharge, Wulf isn't really "dead," now is he?That's kind of my point, though. Wulf is even decent to have in your hand. A card that you literally cannot play, is decent in your hand. There's something wrong there.

The Test Tiger thing was sort of an aside mention, since we were talking about "freebies". Meh.

Except you still get to kill two cards with Gyzarus, making him a 2:2 at worst, and a 2:3 in your favor if they have to use a BTH you didn't target.Well yeah. I honestly think Gyzarus is rather broken. But, broken or not, it requires you to actually work somewhat to get it to go off. You have to get that one copy of Bestiari out safely, along with a second Gladiator. Then you've got to successfully summon him and keep it out. It's when Gyzarus attacks and tags out for two more GBs to get two more effects, that it starts to be really broken.

There are several things that can go wrong for Gyzarus in all of those steps, but with Garoth, all you have to do is summon it with another LS out. That's it. No restriction on the number of any cards you can play with him, no attacking or costs, just summon him. Then you get to draw cards, without any actual reason, other than "I'm playing a theme."

[StormVyper Zera]

The thing is, and Correct me if I'm wrong, but LS have some of the best monsters in the game for their theme.

A more versatile Zombie master (can discard anything)
A Man eater bug which can target anything
A cyber dragon which is summoned with no disadvantage caused, and is summoned from the decks main effect (milling)
A ddraw
A super freakin' amazing (broken) Boss monster
A card which allows a lightmonster to beat anything.
The best monarch in the game (Celestia)
A draw card from milling

Heck, they even have COTH, and scrap iron scarecrow which no one uses.

Aside from JD being absolutely ******ed, Lightsworn is what I'd classify as a model theme. They have good monsters with good effects that support their tribe and they have good support. I would love to see more themes like this in this game.

[Zaffy]

Aside from JD being absolutely ******ed, Lightsworn is what I'd classify as a model theme. They have good monsters with good effects that support their tribe and they have good support. I would love to see more themes like this in this game.

Yes, i think i would be happy with LS if JD was gone too.

It's just the fact they have a broken boss monster along with some of the best theme monsters in the game is why it is hated.

[StormVyper Zera]

Yes, i think i would be happy with LS if JD was gone too.

It's just the fact they have a broken boss monster along with some of the best theme monsters in the game is why it is hated.

Lightsworn being hated never really bothered me, to be honest. Nobody ever complains about Lightsworn (as a whole) until they lose to it enough times. Complaining about JD makes sense because it is actually a broken card (themed boss or not), but complaining about the rest of the deck is just people venting frustration in most cases.

People complain about Honest, when in actuality, they should simply expect him and just be smart about the battle phase. Wulf/Gardna is only a problem when somebody random mills multiple copies, but oddly enough, they're a fair card when they clog the Lightsworn player's hand and cost them the game. It's just people trying to justify a loss.

[Zaffy]

People complain about Honest, when in actuality, they should simply expect him and just be smart about the battle phase. Wulf/Gardna is only a problem when somebody random mills multiple copies, but oddly enough, they're a fair card when they clog the Lightsworn player's hand and cost them the game. It's just people trying to justify a loss.

Honest was made a bit overpowered, due to no other attribute has anything which can compare to that (do not say kalut) but it's managable.

Wulf is actually the only other card i have a problem with in LS, it was made too powerful for too low of a restriction

Drawing wulf can still be used via recharge/discards

If wulf was anything from 1600-1850 attack, it wouldnt be a problem, it would be mini-beatsticks

But 2100 beats anything you dont have to tribute for, and suicides into any 2100 monsters (eg, field searchers)

[DarthLuigi36]

Lightsworn being hated never really bothered me, to be honest. Nobody ever complains about Lightsworn (as a whole) until they lose to it enough times. Complaining about JD makes sense because it is actually a broken card (themed boss or not), but complaining about the rest of the deck is just people venting frustration in most cases.

People complain about Honest, when in actuality, they should simply expect him and just be smart about the battle phase. Wulf/Gardna is only a problem when somebody random mills multiple copies, but oddly enough, they're a fair card when they clog the Lightsworn player's hand and cost them the game. It's just people trying to justify a loss.


This is my reasoning, pretty much. Judgment Dragon has been consistently my biggest issue with Lightsworn (Though Celestia gets honorable mention).

This debate about Garoth and Wulf and crap, of course I don't think Garoth breaks LS or should be limited or something. That's stupid. The thread is why there is so much LS bias, and that's one of them though: Free cards. Wulf, Gardna, Garoth, etc. all give free cards that you honestly don't have to do anything to get, you just have to be using a theme deck.


Although, I have to disagree somewhat on "Play smart in your battle phase to get around Honest." That is extremely difficult, often impossible to do. And as I keep saying, Beckoning Light makes Honest nigh broken.

[StormVyper Zera]

Honest was made a bit overpowered, due to no other attribute has anything which can compare to that (do not say kalut) but it's managable.

Wulf is actually the only other card i have a problem with in LS, it was made too powerful for too low of a restriction

Drawing wulf can still be used via recharge/discards

If wulf was anything from 1600-1850 attack, it wouldnt be a problem, it would be mini-beatsticks

But 2100 beats anything you dont have to tribute for, and suicides into any 2100 monsters (eg, field searchers)

Darks (as in the attribute) got an ENTIRE set dedicated to making it good, whereas the only thing Light got was Honest. Unless you use Earth/Fire/Water/Wind (i.e. the elements that don't do much in competitive play), I don't want to hear that noise.

Also, I can't say I've ever witnessed anybody who was in a winning position lose it because their opponent free dropped a Wulf. That may not count for much, but I honestly don't see how the card is a legitimate problem.

This is my reasoning, pretty much. Judgment Dragon has been consistently my biggest issue with Lightsworn (Though Celestia gets honorable mention).

This debate about Garoth and Wulf and crap, of course I don't think Garoth breaks LS or should be limited or something. That's stupid. The thread is why there is so much LS bias, and that's one of them though: Free cards. Wulf, Gardna, Garoth, etc. all give free cards that you honestly don't have to do anything to get, you just have to be using a theme deck.

Although, I have to disagree somewhat on "Play smart in your battle phase to get around Honest." That is extremely difficult, often impossible to do. And as I keep saying, Beckoning Light makes Honest nigh broken.

Wulf and Garoth give you free cards based on probability though. I'm no good at math, so I can't tell you the chance you'd have to mill a Lightsworn for Garoth, but you've only got about a 7.5% chance to mill a Wulf. The free cards are, for the most part, completely random (which is why they're free in the first place). It doesn't make sense to me to blame Lightsworn for something that happens at random.

I play with and against Lightsworn, so I expect and see Honest all the time. Yeah, it can be an absolute pain to play against, but that doesn't mean its a problem card. It's just one of those things people need to get used to having around, and it will ultimately help you become a better player. If I know my opponent is playing Honest, I take steps to make sure it doesn't absolutely wreck me when they use him. Very rarely will you see me just walk into an Honest and be surprised about it.

[Zaffy]

Darks (as in the attribute) got an ENTIRE set dedicated to making it good, whereas the only thing Light got was Honest. Unless you use Earth/Fire/Water/Wind (i.e. the elements that don't do much in competitive play), I don't want to hear that noise.

Also, I can't say I've ever witnessed anybody who was in a winning position lose it because their opponent free dropped a Wulf. That may not count for much, but I honestly don't see how the card is a legitimate problem.

Yes, they did, and let's see which dark cards are actually used from that set (specifically darks used in a dark deck, eg, Dark horus will not be on this list for being used in REDMD decks):
Allure
Dark grepher
DAD
Armageddon knight
Dark creator
Dark Nephthys (though not really used often)
Dark eruption
Darklord Zerato

8 Dark cards from that set which made dark decks good

I know lights only got 1, but still, they got LS, which is pretty much just as good.

But anyway, Honest is a very well made card, but some fuctions (beckoning light) are a bit silly with it, eg dropping multiple ones at a time.

And no, one one would get from a winning to a losing position from someone dropping a wulf, but it does help reinforce that winning position, gain that winning position in the first place, and win faster so your opponent can't get back from their losing.

Just imagine, say.... E heros got to summon 1 2100 beater at the end phase once every 2 turns or so (i know this is exaggerated, sue me :P) your opponent would either have to waste resources by killing your wulf with a LV/fissure/etc

or kill your wulf with a bigger monster, which means you still have your other monster to do stuff

Basically, i can't really explain my point without raving off stupidly, but you're still getting a free monster time to time, which is fairly strong.

And incase you're wondering, i run twilight antimeta :) TKR, banishers, kycoos, breakers, CS, tragoedia, etc, with 1 allure and 1 honest, so yes, i know i do run these cards which im debating against.

[StormVyper Zera]

Lightsworns do not support Light-attribute monsters. They are merely a tribe of Light-attribute monster. There's a difference. Honest is the only good card in Light of Destruction that actually supports Light-attribute monsters. Without it, there's no reason to play any attribute that isn't Dark-based.

You explained Wulf's purpose eloquently when you said "but it does help reinforce that winning position, gain that winning position in the first place, and win faster". Lightsworns are on a timer, and their aim is to win quickly before they are actively killing themselves. If the field position is neutral, a dropped Wulf can pull the position in your favor because each mill brings you closer to a loss. If you're winning, Wulf can potentially pull board position further in your favor. That's what the card is for.

[Zaffy]

Lightsworns do not support Light-attribute monsters. They are merely a tribe of Light-attribute monster. There's a difference. Honest is the only good card in Light of Destruction that actually supports Light-attribute monsters. Without it, there's no reason to play any attribute that isn't Dark-based.

You explained Wulf's purpose eloquently when you said "but it does help reinforce that winning position, gain that winning position in the first place, and win faster". Lightsworns are on a timer, and their aim is to win quickly before they are actively killing themselves. If the field position is neutral, a dropped Wulf can pull the position in your favor because each mill brings you closer to a loss. If you're winning, Wulf can potentially pull board position further in your favor. That's what the card is for.

I know LS aren't actual light support, but we are in a LS biased thread.

Basically, i miss wrote what i meant to say, i didn't mean honest was overpowered because of only light has one, but how with support like beckoning light and being able to drop multiple ones, and how you have no defence against it, then it is stupid.

& i know, but however, say wulf was only 1600, any half decent monster would be able to run over it. I could simply 'summon stratos, attack wulf' and it was no longer a threat

2100 means that you cannot simply summon any old monster, you must devote some resources towards destroying it in the form of destruction, or summoning a big monster.

[StormVyper Zera]

I know LS aren't actual light support, but we are in a LS biased thread.

Basically, i miss wrote what i meant to say, i didn't mean honest was overpowered because of only light has one, but how with support like beckoning light and being able to drop multiple ones, and how you have no defence against it, then it is stupid.

& i know, but however, say wulf was only 1600, any half decent monster would be able to run over it. I could simply 'summon stratos, attack wulf' and it was no longer a threat

2100 means that you cannot simply summon any old monster, you must devote some resources towards destroying it in the form of destruction, or summoning a big monster.

That doesn't really change the fact that the Lightsworn monster doesn't support Light monsters though.

Again, playing again Honest is nothing new to me. I'm not bothered by the card in the slightest, because I'm used to playing around it and reducing the damage it can do. There are good cards that can neutralize Honest. Book of Moon, Enemy Controller, and Spirit Burner immediately come to mind. Also, unless there's a specific reason (like it's game or you're trying to get your opponent under a certain number of LPs), using multiple Honest seems like a poor idea.

Now, if Wulf only had 1600 ATK, it wouldn't do what it is supposed to do; swing the board early. You want Wulf to be weaker so you easily attack over him, but the fact of the matter is you are not supposed to be able to just attack over him with any old monster.

[DarthLuigi36]

Wulf and Garoth give you free cards based on probability though. I'm no good at math, so I can't tell you the chance you'd have to mill a Lightsworn for Garoth, but you've only got about a 7.5% chance to mill a Wulf. The free cards are, for the most part, completely random (which is why they're free in the first place). It doesn't make sense to me to blame Lightsworn for something that happens at random.

The chances of milling a Wulf are not that low. Lightsworn can mill two or three cards a turn on a bad hand. On a good one, fifteen or more.

The chances aren't even what annoy me. It's the fact that there is no skill to those random free cards, theme or not. There's no setup. Nothing.

I keep saying this, I know, but it's still just "Free cards, simply because I'm playing a theme; I didn't do anything to get this free huge monster or free draw or free attack negation or free syncho destruction. I just played my search spell, then my draw spell, then summoned a monster or two and milled eight+ cards. And that's an average hand for me!"

No other deck does that.

[BlackVoid2]

The main problem with this article is its claim that LS was hit by the list.

Cold Wave was not run in LS. If it was, it would have been replaced with Trunade.
CCV wasn't used either. In fact, it was the number one counter to Lightsworn.
Solemn was the number 2 counter. It saved you from Judgment Dragon and a Lumina-Lumina-Lumina-Wulf combo.

[Zaffy]

And not being able to attack over him would have been fine, but he is summoned for free! LS players do not lose anything in the process of getting him, so it means you now this have problem which you have to waste resources to get rid off, when your opponent recieved it for free.

If you didn't have to waste a spell/trap/tribute monster to get rid of it, i'd be eprfectly fine with it.

[DarthLuigi36]

And not being able to attack over him would have been fine, but he is summoned for free! LS players do not lose anything in the process of getting him, so it means you now this have problem which you have to waste resources to get rid off, when your opponent recieved it for free.

If you didn't have to waste a spell/trap/tribute monster to get rid of it, i'd be eprfectly fine with it.

Exactly. If Wulf weren't so huge, or if it was "discard a card when this is milled to..." or something, anything. But it's just a big free guy they didn't do a thing to get.

[Ridders]

EDIT - Oh screw it, not worth trying to argue.

[DarthLuigi36]

edit - ok deal. <3

[StormVyper Zera]

Can we stop complaining about Wulf/Garoth like they're actual problem cards, please? Neither card is overpowered or anything, it's just you two seem to have it stuck in your heads that they shouldn't work the way they do (which is just an opinion based on how you feel). That's how the card works and you two are simply going to have to get over it.

I'm also a little ticked at myself for no noticing that I was arguing against an opinion. Such a waste. =/

[DarthLuigi36]

The entire thread is about opinion, lol. It's a discussion on why there is so much bias against LS. Bias = opinion.

When I first posted, one of my reasons was that they generate free cards without any effort, via Garoth and Wulf.

I'm not arguing that they're problem cards or anything like that. I was just explaining why I find it annoying to see random free cards obtained by the opponent, when they didn't do anything. There aren't any other themes that can do that so easily.

If you go back to my original post, I listed three reasons for my bias against Lightsworn. Garoth/Wulf are the least annoying to me among those reasons, but they were the ones that got picked up into debate so I went with it. =/

[StormVyper Zera]

Oh, that's right. I still believe that's just silly nitpicking, but I suppose you're entitled to think however you want.

[JoeLewis]

Ok Let me read this. Will I laugh Zera?

Additional Comment:

Two interveiws come to mind when I read some of this. Ill post them now.


Erin Diaz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG8cee7EUKU

Alex "Thunderpants" Vansent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzIxYczeeC8

[StormVyper Zera]

I only got here a few pages ago, so I don't know about the whole thread. The last couple pages might draw out some lulz or a WTF reaction. It's a coin flip.

[Zaffy]

Can we stop complaining about Wulf/Garoth like they're actual problem cards, please? Neither card is overpowered or anything, it's just you two seem to have it stuck in your heads that they shouldn't work the way they do (which is just an opinion based on how you feel). That's how the card works and you two are simply going to have to get over it.

I'm also a little ticked at myself for no noticing that I was arguing against an opinion. Such a waste. =/

I know it is, I'm just stating how i feel about Wulf, but i can't change that, nor can anyone else.

Basically, JD gone, LS = a decent deck.

[Tcwalter]

Didn't read, but LS is a trash deck and should be hit.

[JoeLewis]

Didn't read, but LS is a trash deck and should be hit.



Why do you say that?

[PKpwnage]

Didn't read, but LS is a trash deck and should be hit.
Get out of this thread. We don't need you trolling around these parts.

[JoeLewis]

Get out of this thread. We don't need you trolling around these parts.

You're a silly goose. =)

[Tcwalter]

I was making a joke. Trolls are for bridges.


I actually agree with a good portion of the thread. I still think that LS has too much luck involved with it, but the OP is right about it getting slightly too much hate.

[JoeLewis]

I was making a joke. Trolls are for bridges.


I actually agree with a good portion of the thread. I still think that LS has too much luck involved with it, but the OP is right about it getting slightly too much hate.

Lightsworn is a big bully.

Lets make up a situation:

Adam Corn goes to a regional with a Morptronic deck. Adam goes undefeated into round five. He then sits down against Erin Diaz, a Lightsworn player, and loses. Adam then goes 4-4 for the day. Turns out he got stuck in Lightsworn land.


What I am trying to say is that Lightsworn likes to sit at Middle tables at regionals. Similar to that GB did during Teladad Format. If you go to a regional and lose in one of the middle rounds, that gives you a good chance of playing Lightsworn for the rest of the day.


Lightsworn decks who are at top tables lose (Due to mirror matchs), Then sit at tables 15-30/35.

What im saying is I think the people who don't like Lightswowns are those group of people who lose at regionals in the Middle/Late rounds and then get stuck at those tables with a non lightsworn deck and play Lightsworn.


If this is hard to comprehend im sorry, I can try to word it differently.

[BlackVoid2]

Lightsworn is a big bully.

Lets make up a situation:

Adam Corn goes to a regional with a Morptronic deck. Adam goes undefeated into round five. He then sits down against Erin Diaz, a Lightsworn player, and loses. Adam then goes 4-4 for the day. Turns out he got stuck in Lightsworn land.


What I am trying to say is that Lightsworn likes to sit at Middle tables at regionals. Similar to that GB did during Teladad Format. If you go to a regional and lose in one of the middle rounds, that gives you a good chance of playing Lightsworn for the rest of the day.


Lightsworn decks who are at top tables lose (Due to mirror matchs), Then sit at tables 15-30/35.

What im saying is I think the people who don't like Lightswowns are those group of people who lose at regionals in the Middle/Late rounds and then get stuck at those tables with a non lightsworn deck and play Lightsworn.


If this is hard to comprehend im sorry, I can try to word it differently.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that way too many people are running LS. This can be fixed with a better ban list that isn't biased towards one deck. It does get repetitive dueling the same deck over and over.

[Tcwalter]

When I was at a Regionals in Lenexa, Kansas over the weekend, I played two Lightsworn all day and beat both of them narrowly. These two decks were at the middle tables. After that, I went on to the higher tables and saw a much lower amount of LS. When I played in Top 8 later in the day there was only a few LS players. I see what you are saying about LS having most of its users at the middle tables. All this says is that too many people are running it.

[DrakMagicianGirl9]

Lightsworn is fine, what I don't like is Honest for one and JD for two.

Honest-"I single double or triple honest you." "I play one of my (3 or 6, not sure) cards to get them back." "I single double or triple honest you."

JD-"I summon JD and blow up the field and attack for 3k." Next turn, "I blow up the field, summon a monster and attack you for 3k and the monster."

The way I see it, I give up, if ya can't beat them, join them. I'll slowly make my own and since it will never get weakened to any good extent I will always have a deck.

(Flame me if you like, this is my opinion)

[loonybob123]

I personally think that lightsworn are not as bad as everyone thinks. I have had little trouble with them as they are very easy to side against * I play GBs) I usually end up siding dimensional fissures and light imprisoning mirrors. The only change I could suggest would not be putting JD to 1 but errating it so that it can only blow up the field when summoned.

[PKpwnage]

I personally think that lightsworn are not as bad as everyone thinks. I have had little trouble with them as they are very easy to side against * I play GBs) I usually end up siding dimensional fissures and light imprisoning mirrors. The only change I could suggest would not be putting JD to 1 but errating it so that it can only blow up the field when summoned.
...while I side in Twisters and Dust Tornadoes.

[loonybob123]

...while I side in Twisters and Dust Tornadoes.

well thats assuming you don't mill them and nonethless every card that I make a LS player side out is an advantage for me.

[PKpwnage]

well thats assuming you don't mill them and nonethless every card that I make a LS player side out is an advantage for me.
You're not getting it.

Milling = not drawing. It's the same thing as you plain "not drawing" your Fissures/Mirrors.

[loonybob123]

You're not getting it.

Milling = not drawing. It's the same thing as you plain "not drawing" your Fissures/Mirrors.

No I am pretty sure I understand perfectly I know milling=not drawing my main point was that if you have to side out 3 cards for tornado's or twisters thats a torrential, or beckoning, or named LS or something that your taking out just and losing the advantage of just to get rid of several cards(fissure, mirror) that I may or may not draw and I may or may not need to play to win.

[StormVyper Zera]

Actually, when you side cards out, you side out the cards that do the least in that matchup/game. So no, I highly doubt you'll see some side out things like Torrential and Beckoning Light. If you think your opponent siding cards is something that ends in your favor, you're in for a rude awakening.

[DrakMagicianGirl9]

I say we don't need to ban any of their cards, just limit JD and semi limit Honest? Then LS is fine imo.

[ScytheBlade]

...while I side in Twisters and Dust Tornadoes.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that doesn't work. Your Twisters are trash when there's no face-up, and Dust Tornados end up hitting set Waboku/Books. Drawing them late is also useless, all your **** is removed.

D-Fissure Glads > Lightsworn. You pull D-Fissure off, Lightsworn loses 70%+ of their deck. What are you going to do, hope you pull a Heavy? You end up attacking with Garoth and getting ***** for game.

Go ahead, side in Twisters/Dust Tornados and dead-draw yourself even more. I run LS also and it already suffers enough from dead draws as is.

Milling does not equal drawing, I agree. But you are forgetting one important aspect. BOTH players can see what is milled. You mill that Heavy, you kiss that round good-bye.

[PKpwnage]

You say this as if Twister and Dust don't kill D Fissure and Light Mirror.

[ScytheBlade]

Actually, when you side cards out, you side out the cards that do the least in that matchup/game. So no, I highly doubt you'll see some side out things like Torrential and Beckoning Light. If you think your opponent siding cards is something that ends in your favor, you're in for a rude awakening.

True, but LS side-decks are bad anyway. The problem with their side is that it makes an inconsistent deck even more inconsistent. There are many essential cards you don't have the luxury to take away, unlike BW/GB.

It's easy taking away a Shura/Bora/Blizzard/Icarus/Kalut/BWW, but do you really want to take out Charge/Lumina/JD/Honest/Necro Gardna/Beckoning Light/Monster Reincarnation/Garoth/80% of your deck even though you know they're going to side in D-Fissure/Macro?

Additional Comment:

You say this as if Twister and Dust don't kill D Fissure and Light Mirror.

They kill D-Fissure and LIM, but D-Fissure and LIM kills 90% of your deck.

[PKpwnage]

Ergo, Twister and Dust Tornado would be good side cards, no?

[ScytheBlade]

Ergo, Twister and Dust Tornado would be good side cards, no?

Dust Tornados are decent sides. But LIM and and D-Fissure are even better.

Dust Tornados don't affect Glads that much. But D-Fissure destroys your deck.

For example:

MEZUKI-MKII

1900 ATK / 1400 DEF

Remove from play this card in your Graveyard to Special Summon a monster from either player's Graveyard.

Cyber D.D. Crow

1100 ATK / 800 DEF

Discard this card to negate an effect which Special Summons an opponent's monster from the Graveyard.

Mez. MKII is almost always useful, but Cyber D.D. is highly conditional. This is the same situation with Twister/Dust Tornado vs D-Fissure/LIM/Macro.

[PKpwnage]

Considering D Fissure and Light Mirror are pretty much all you can side to do significant damage against LS, Twister and Dust are pretty good choices.



Oh, also Jujitsu Master.

[StormVyper Zera]

True, but LS side-decks are bad anyway. The problem with their side is that it makes an inconsistent deck even more inconsistent. There are many essential cards you don't have the luxury to take away, unlike BW/GB.

It's easy taking away a Shura/Bora/Blizzard/Icarus/Kalut/BWW, but do you really want to take out Charge/Lumina/JD/Honest/Necro Gardna/Beckoning Light/Monster Reincarnation/Garoth/80% of your deck even though you know they're going to side in D-Fissure/Macro?


Actually, siding in Lightsworn is the same as siding with any other deck, the only difference is you run the risk of milling the cards you sided in. That's it. As for dropping cards, unless you need to side into everything in your sidedeck at once, it's not a huge problem either.

Your logic seems off base for someone who claims to play Lightsworn.

[ScytheBlade]

Actually, siding in Lightsworn is the same as siding with any other deck, the only difference is you run the risk of milling the cards you sided in. That's it. As for dropping cards, unless you need to side into everything in your sidedeck at once, it's not a huge problem either.

Your logic seems off base for someone who claims to play Lightsworn.

You have too many essential cards in LS. Plus, if you mill your side, your opponent KNOWS that you won't be able to counter what he does. Mill Storm/MST/Dust Tornado = overextend.

Blackwings have no problem with side-decking. They can easily destroy it with Icarus. LS needs Celestia and dedicated S/T's.

I have played Lightsworns since LODT. I think I know what I'm talking about.

[PKpwnage]

I don't think you do.

[StormVyper Zera]

You have too many essential cards in LS. Plus, if you mill your side, your opponent KNOWS that you won't be able to counter what he does. Mill Storm/MST/Dust Tornado = overextend.

Blackwings have no problem with side-decking. They can easily destroy it with Icarus. LS needs Celestia and dedicated S/T's.

I have played Lightsworns since LODT. I think I know what I'm talking about.
2 JD
2 Lumina
1 Garoth
2 Lyla
1 Ryko
2 Celestia
1 Aurkus
2 Honest
3 Necro Gardna

3 Charge of Light Brigade
3 Solar Recharge
1 Heavy Storm

X Beckoning Light

The rest of your s--- can be cut with more than enough room to spare. I've said it once before, siding with Lightsworn isn't an impossible task, you've just tricked yourself into thinking everything is essential when it's not.

And just because you've played Lightsworn for a long time doesn't mean you've necessarily done it well.

[ScytheBlade]

I don't think you do.

Want to YVD? I'll run Glads with side in D-Fissures/removal and then you side in whatever you want with LS.

Apparently, you think JD @ 0 would still mean a top-tier LS. That's like saying Glads without Gyzarus is tier 1. This would most likely be true if it was years ago.

LS is laughable in Japan when you compare it to Zombies. Japan is what counts in the banlist, btw.

I'm not claiming to be a Lightsworn expert. But don't fool yourselves into thinking that Lightsworn's side-deck options can even hold a candle to GB/BW.

I don't want to theory-duel here, this is from countless matches against D-Fissure Glads. They don't really care if you side in Dust Tornado/Twister.

I'm tired, so this will be my last post.

Additional Comment:

2 JD
2 Lumina
1 Garoth
2 Lyla
1 Ryko
2 Celestia
1 Aurkus
2 Honest
3 Necro Gardna

3 Charge of Light Brigade
3 Solar Recharge
1 Heavy Storm

X Beckoning Light

The rest of your s--- can be cut with more than enough room to spare. I've said it once before, siding with Lightsworn isn't an impossible task, you've just tricked yourself into thinking everything is essential when it's not.

And just because you've played Lightsworn for a long time doesn't mean you've necessarily done it well.

Pure LS without Wulf or JD fails.

[Sam Gillians]

JD, Wulf and Honest are pretty hard hitters.

Wulf
In the effects of milling Wulf is the one who really takes advantage, he seems to be a instant +1 with a attack that can pretty much run over alot.

Honest
I like this card, I mean yeah its rough to compete with but its splashy and stuff so it doesn't bother me to much. It just shines here, because its a pure light theme aside from plagues and gardnas. All in all this isn't so bad.

JD
Evil =), The only reason I really hate this is cause its instant -X to you. I know you shouldn't overextend plays and hold your things when battling them, but the surprise gets you when they drop this.

All in all, I don't hate lightsworn their really fun to duel, but if I was to make any complaints I would want JD = 1, Wulf = 2, Honest = 2

Also their are alot of things out there to combat them, just make a side deck that can take em.

Anyways that is my thoughts on them.

[PJ]

I think there's a big flaw in the premise here. Lightsworn hasn't gathered nearly as much hate as past decks like DaD Return and Cyber-Stein gathered in their times. Heck, I think there's actually less complaining about LS than there was about TeleDAD.

There's more talk of the deck having 'no skill involved' than either of those 2 though.

Additional Comment:

Considering D Fissure and Light Mirror are pretty much all you can side to do significant damage against LS, Twister and Dust are pretty good choices.



Oh, also Jujitsu Master.

Fairy Wind's amazing in an LS side. Use it.

[Jiraiya-ThePervysage]

I am surprised they havent mentioned Fairy Wind. thats my new staple. since it has been out in my side.

As for LS being no skill, it is annoying, but I feel the people who say so are just finding an excuse to losing to them. you get that or you are a sacker.

[PJ]

I am surprised they havent mentioned Fairy Wind. thats my new staple. since it has been out in my side.

As for LS being no skill, it is annoying, but I feel the people who say so are just finding an excuse to losing to them. you get that or you are a sacker.

Fairy Wind's been winning me a lot of games recently, much more reliable than Decree.

[StormVyper Zera]

Pure LS without Wulf or JD fails.

What's more fail is the fact that you completely missed my point in it's entirety.

[Kitsune Blue]

Article is not that good, and is as biased and flavored as the opinions he is criticizing.


As for LS being no skill, it is annoying, but I feel the people who say so are just finding an excuse to losing to them. you get that or you are a sacker.

LS doesn't take any skill.

It is the most auto-pilot, see where the deck takes you deck to date. In the history of Yugioh.

Milling half your deck then dropping JD/Beckoning is not hard. Any moron could do it.

[StormVyper Zera]

The same logic could be used for most of the decks around these days, so I'm not seeing your point.

[Ridders]

Ignore the Blue Fox, his bias is at the other end of the extreme.

[Kitsune Blue]

The same logic could be used for most of the decks around these days, so I'm not seeing your point.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware most decks played themselves.

Even Blackwings take more then LS. If you can't see this, you're biased, or an idiot (If you run Lightsworns, you could very well be both), and I don't want to waste any more time on you.

[StormVyper Zera]

Blackwings is a hard deck to play? That's news to me. I also didn't know Gladiator Beasts were such a science either. I must be a really good player then for doing so well with it on my first try.

I think it's cute how adamant you are, despite the fact that you don't seem to actually have any real logic or substance to your posts other than "Lightsworn is bad, and if you don't agree, you are bad too". You're cute, in a yappy dog that barks at the mailman at 9:30 in the morning sort of way.

Ignore the Blue Fox, his bias is at the other end of the extreme.

Yeah, I know.

[Kitsune Blue]

Excuse me for not wanting to type out the same analytic 12 page thesis about LS on this thread that I have already written in various segments about 40 times since the deck's creation for someone who's opinion is not likely to budge.

At least with Blackwings, you have a few ways to go about it. LS is just mill, mill, possible JD drop, beckoning. That's it.

[StormVyper Zera]

Yeah, all the deck does is win by Judgment Dragon, because we all know it can't do anything else. Clearly Celestia is a terrible card and doesn't win any games. And everyone knows looping Honest with Beckoning Light puts you on the fast track to a game loss. And I mean, it's not like their monsters are huge with amazing effects, so swarming is completely out of the question, right?

Oh wait.

[PJ]

Excuse me for not wanting to type out the same analytic 12 page thesis about LS on this thread that I have already written in various segments about 40 times since the deck's creation for someone who's opinion is not likely to budge.

At least with Blackwings, you have a few ways to go about it. LS is just mill, mill, possible JD drop, beckoning. That's it.

You don't have to re-write anything so lng as you can link us to said thesis.

[Kitsune Blue]

You don't have to re-write anything so lng as you can link us to said thesis.

As the post said, it has been broken up over several threads.

Basically, I don't want to re-type my position on LS and explanations needed because I've already done it several times before.

If I get a spare 20 minutes, I'll work on one, I guess.

Yeah, all the deck does is win by Judgment Dragon, because we all know it can't do anything else. Clearly Celestia is a terrible card and doesn't win any games. And everyone knows looping Honest with Beckoning Light puts you on the fast track to a game loss. And I mean, it's not like their monsters are huge with amazing effects, so swarming is completely out of the question, right?

Oh wait.
None of those are the main strategies of lightsworn. Those are what we call fall-backs.

The main purpose of the deck is to summon JD. Normal summoning a monster and sitting on it because you have Honest in hand is not "Skilled", I don't know where you got this impression.

[Ridders]

None of those are the main strategies of lightsworn in my opinion.

Those are what I call fall-backs.

The main purpose of the deck is to summon JD in my opinion.

When your done once again parading your opinion as some sort of fact. Maybe people could actually take anything you post seriously.

[Kitsune Blue]

When your done once again parading your opinion as some sort of fact. Maybe people could actually take anything you post seriously.

k.

I love how you act as if anyone else isn't parading their view as some sort of fact.

Nah, I'm the only one.

Good eye, Ridders.