Realism in this Forum

[elitedesolator]

It shouldn't exist.

I'm tired of people (especially JDGloom) *******g about how banlist decisions made here are useless because they are unrealistic. Because they don't fit with the overall marketing strategy of UDE/Konami. Even worse, some people develop the habit of using the words "Konami won't do this/that" to support their argument.

Do you people actually think what we say here as any bearing to reality? It's a place for the intuitive and not the realistic. It's a board where people discuss how things SHOULD be, and not how things will be.

If the board is dedicated towards discussing what will be, what on earth is there to discuss?

And if you happen to not like how intuitive people think (in the abstract, what could be), then please show some respect. People are different. Don't ever think that your way of thinking is better than another person's way.

This case could be applied to us intuitive thinkers as well. Hey, why don't we accept the way of thinking that sensing people adopt?

Why don't we think of realistic banlists instead of going along dreamy tangents, posting the most logically sound banlist possible, riddled with changes, with odds of Konami applying that banlist to be close to zero?

Because this is an intuitive board. If you were to apply "realistic" standards to the discussion, not only does the discussion slow down, the discussion is inhibited from going on in some cases.

/Rant.

[Doctor K]

Actually the original purpose of this forum was to keep all ban list related topics from cluttering up the other Yugioh forums, namely the Gossip and Single Card Discussions. When the ban lists first came out, they were everywhere and anywhere possible, pushing back topics that were actually forum appropriate. Naturally, the users and mods got pretty tired of this and thus the Ban/Restriction forum was created to centralize these topics in one place so they wouldn't spam up the other forums. And the main purpose of the ban list forum back then was to discuss why some cards were/were not on Konami's ban list. Obviously, there were some people who agreed, some who disagreed, and many in between. Some people got the idea that they had better reasoning skills than Konami and could create better ban lists. And so the forum has always had a healthy supply of both parts: 1) To discuss Konami's decisions on the real ban lists and 2) To offer other lines of reasoning on how the ban list should be. I see no need to take out either from the forum discussions.

Unless you can show documented proof of ownership, you are in no position to push your viewpoint on how this section of Pojo is run. Sure some topics/ideas may irk/annoy you to death, but like you said, they are opinions people have. And if they wanna say it intuitively, realistically, or any other way (that's not offensive or ridiculously spammy) then they should be free to, just like you can.

And hey, everyone could anticipate how boring and useless the Ban/Restriction Forum would be if everyone agreed on how to go about discussions. This is like the Soap Opera Channel of Pojo; it brings people back for the drama.

[elitedesolator]

My main point was to try to show people how it doesn't make any logical sense to use realism when it comes to banlist decisions. I understand your points but I don't understand how they apply.

[Ergonomic Hero]

I don't like people bashing Metabomb posts because they're metabomb. I mean, fine, give reasons, and I'll have a genuine debate with you. But what good is LOL****MOARMETABOMBZGO******HELL?

[Doctor K]

My main point was to try to show people how it doesn't make any logical sense to use realism when it comes to banlist decisions. I understand your points but I don't understand how they apply.

My point is that this forum has naturally developed into two umbrella discussions:

1) Discussions on the current ban list and Konami's reasoning behind each card.
(This was the original ban forum discussion and is what you could say, the realistic position)

2) Discussions on how one could differ from Konami's lists and create one's own ban list that could theoretically be better (one could call this the intuitive).

Now I understand what your problem is. You don't like these two umbrellas overlapping each other. You want one camp isolated from each other, so that the discussions could stay on topic for their sections and that like-minded people can discuss on collectively interesting topics, thus a likely decrease in deviating ideas and stable progression for both sides.

Well its impossible to stop. You could petition for a division of the Ban/Restrict forum into these two camps, but this is useless for several reasons. One, you'd need a heck of a convincing argument to the admins on why this is necessary and why they should have mods work harder to moderate another forum. Two, there is nothing to filter out people's thoughts on the ban list into these two camps (no thought policing please). Three, troublemakers on both sides would naturally want to cross lines and make trouble anyways.

Its something we got to live with dude/dudette. Just suck up your pride once in a while, don't get too serious or hot headed, and be considerate of as many viewpoints as you can. You'll feel better, trust me.

[elitedesolator]

Let me clarify.

The two umbrellas are both okay. I have absolutely no problem with them coexisting under one forum. You propose that they discuss different things.

They do not in fact.

When they discuss about the current ban list and Konami's reasoning behind each card, only the realistic side should logically be used.

Discussions on how one could differ from Konami's lists and create one's own ban list that could theoretically be better is the dominant discussion topic in this forum right now. The huge issue here is that some people still could not drop the realistic mindset and denounce other people who have dropped it.

You really assume too much K. And I don't really appreciate that "Now I understand what your problem is." line.

[Mantracker]

This Forum is a joke
Realism IS needed

The ban lists here are as productive as making up a fan fic tournament report

You can't even debate these lists because they are off-the-planet ludicrous.

[elitedesolator]

This Forum is a joke
Realism IS needed

The ban lists here are as productive as making up a fan fic tournament report

You can't even debate these lists because they are off-the-planet ludicrous.

Doctor K: We have an example for you here.

[Doctor K]

People think this and people think that. Some people don't like people thinking this and some people don't like others thinking that. Its no problem. Just let it go and let people think whatever they want (within reasonable lines). Sure people will attack the positions of others but that's how a forum works. I'm sure there are some intuitists that denounce realists just as strongly as you are saying the other way. But they are just expressing disagreement. Now some people can't express their opinions in a civil/clear/accepting manner sometimes but that is an entirely different issue.

There is no natural progression from realistic to intuitive or intuitive to realistic. Don't expect there to be one.

And do forgive my presumptuous post there. Didn't mean to offend.

[elitedesolator]

The point of this thread isn't really to try to change what people think and how people react to certain circumstances. It's mainly a whine thread. And if people are to read it I think the amount of brainless flaming (due to those aforementioned differences) will decrease.

[Doctor K]

The point of this thread isn't really to try to change what people think and how people react to certain circumstances. It's mainly a whine thread. And if people are to read it I think the amount of brainless flaming (due to those aforementioned differences) will decrease.

Well I'm glad I could help somewhat but whines/rants really just make the problem worse. Frankly, whining anywhere is bloody annoying so people will get you on that. And people who aren't fond of you start making personal attacks since the thread is centered on yourself. And you aren't seriously expecting to move people to your viewpoint by whining are you?

[elitedesolator]

When I said whine I didn't actually mean my post was a whine post.

It's more of a way of saying "I'm not sure exactly where I am going with this" and "My paragraph might help people realise things about other users".

No offense, but do you take everything in a literal sense? I have yet to meet a person as literal as you are. Not that it's a bad thing in most cases.

[Doctor K]

When I said whine I didn't actually mean my post was a whine post.

It's more of a way of saying "I'm not sure exactly where I am going with this" and "My paragraph might help people realise things about other users".

No offense, but do you take everything in a literal sense? I have yet to meet a person as literal as you are. Not that it's a bad thing in most cases.

Its the only way I can take both sides of an argument equally I must say. If you can't look past the fluff, then you must be blinded by it partially.

But I'm really not so literal. I just feel that you are deserving of a sensible ear to your comments. I'm quite optimistic over most things. I am expecting an Usa-Chan doll like my avatar for Christmas!

[elitedesolator]

I guess after going on so much about the useless tidbits, what I really meant to say was that I hate how some people seem to think "realism" is a good substitute for reasoning.

Realism in this case inhibits reasoning and discovery.

Just out of interest K, what's your major?

[Doctor K]

I guess after going on so much about the useless tidbits, what I really meant to say was that I hate how some people seem to think "realism" is a good substitute for reasoning.

Realism in this case inhibits reasoning and discovery.

Just out of interest K, what's your major?

You need both. Reasoning starts the process, realism determines progress. If you have all of the former, none of the latter, you can expect to go in circles without direction or knowing if you are progressing or regressing. If you lack the former entirely, then you have no imagination at all and can't even set a direction.

I'm a Management Science Major, with a minor in Psychology. I can't see your age, but are you college/grad as well?

[TobiasX]

Ban lists here are made by people who enjoy the game (whether it's the skill, the lucksacking, the art, or whatever other reason they have), think UDE / Konami have done some things wrong and think they can do a better job.

Whether you want to take the meta or "business sense" into account for your list is your own decision, nobody should be forced to accept either.

My only request to everyone who posts a ban list is that you include a reason for your changes (or your entire new list) because it saves a lot of time when you know the first post will be "why did you put [Card] at 0/1/2/3? It's broken!" Even if your reason is "I get lucksacked by it a lot" or "I bought 3 of ebay so I don't think it's broken!" at least that's something for the people replying to work with.

[elitedesolator]

As I explained earlier, all that is said here will not (even slightly) alter the real outcome. So is realism necessary here?

Bachelor of Business Administration. Undergraduate.

[Mantracker]

I guess after going on so much about the useless tidbits, what I really meant to say was that I hate how some people seem to think "realism" is a good substitute for reasoning.

Realism in this case inhibits reasoning and discovery.

Just out of interest K, what's your major?

I disagree
Realism does not inhibit discovery at all
Realism is the application of reasoning, I don't see how it can be a substitute.

[Doctor K]

As I explained earlier, all that is said here will not (even slightly) alter the real outcome. So is realism necessary here?

Bachelor of Business Administration. Undergraduate.

YAY Business Majors!

But what I would personally like to see are more actual testing of ban lists created here. I applaud any attempt to run their custom ban list in a tournament set-up over a period of time to at least gather data on what happened. People should post more of their custom ban-list tournaments from YVD or AIM. With data, one can change/keep their hypothetical lists for the better and can back it up in the defense of them.

[TobiasX]

I disagree
Realism does not inhibit discovery at all
Realism is the application of reasoning, I don't see how it can be a substitute.
I believe elitedesolator means people just saying "it's something UDE / Konami would do" rather than coming up with their own reasons.

[Mantracker]

As I explained earlier, all that is said here will not (even slightly) alter the real outcome. So is realism necessary here?

Bachelor of Business Administration. Undergraduate.

This is untrue
UDE DOES look at these forums (I should say did)
They were interested in what non-casual players liked and disliked about the game.
But when they saw banlists that included 200+ cards including every monster destruction effect card, they decided to completely disregard this forum since they knew it did not represent the average player or even a minority.
These lists represent the views of 1 player, and are usually created with the logic of, "I always lose to this card so it needs to be banned", with no consequential thinking at all.

Additional Comment:

I believe elitedesolator means people just saying "it's something UDE / Konami would do" rather than coming up with their own reasons.

If that is the arguement, then using that statement DOES replace reasoning and is meaningless.

Personally, I've tended to use that arguement only when someone posts something ludicrous, like a 200+ card list, and I don't have the patience to go through every card and explain why each is a poor decision

[elitedesolator]

I disagree
Realism does not inhibit discovery at all
Realism is the application of reasoning, I don't see how it can be a substitute.

No it isn't. I would've agreed with you in most other cases if we were not talking about Yu-Gi-Oh.

If we were talking about Physics, you would be about 80% correct in your statement.

Now let's think about how realism screws with Yu-Gi-Oh.

Realism first implies first hand experience of the matter in discussion. This required observation is often heavily opinionated and downright biased in some cases. This part of realism differs from person to person, and is largely composed of emotions during a game rather than thinking.

Realism also implies that banlist decisions must be realistic. What does that mean? That it cannot be too radical and that it must absolutely fit under some rules that are absolutely preposterous.

For instance, banlist decisions should not mess with the secondary market. Banlist decisions should not mess with the bran image. Banlist decisions should fit Konami's neglectful way of dealing with the card game. The banlist must therefore be like the banlist we have right now. I wouldn't say anything about the quality of the banlist. But let's just say the banlist isn't perfect. If you are further basing assumptions with these constraints in mind:

Does this inhibit discovery of the perfect banlist?

[TobiasX]

This is untrue
UDE DOES look at these forums (I should say did)
They were interested in what non-casual players liked and disliked about the game.
But when they saw banlists that included 200+ cards including every monster destruction effect card, they decided to completely disregard this forum since they knew it did not represent the average player or even a minority.
Hopefully they'll still pass by from time to time, though when you put it as you have it seems doubtful.

These lists represent the views of 1 player, and are usually created with the logic of, "I always lose to this card so it needs to be banned", with no consequential thinking at all.
... and that's why people need to post the reasons for all their changes.

[elitedesolator]

I'll give an example.

You could argue how DAD is a 2800 beater, easily SSed with good Graveyard manipulation, that can give you a +3 just by his effect alone.

You could also argue how DAD has been recently released, decreasing the chance of it being banned. You could also argue that Konami has had a tendency to keep broken cards in the meta to spike things up.

Do you understand what I am trying to point at?

[JDGloom]

Do you people actually think what we say here as any bearing to reality? It's a place for the intuitive and not the realistic. It's a board where people discuss how things SHOULD be, and not how things will be.

As usual, I'll go ahead and ask the pressing question: "Says who?"

Nobody involved with the control of these boards has ever stated "this board is for people to discuss how things SHOULD be, not how things will be." There are alot of people who would be interested in discussing the realistic changes that could be made - I'm one of them. The entire problem with this board is that a handful of people have decided it "should" be one thing when in reality, it "should" be many things.

You don't get to dictate what this forum is for just because you decided to. I'd suggest learning some tolerance for the users who would like to get something else out of this particular board, instead of constantly pushing your opinion with threads like this one.

-Jason

[elitedesolator]

Doctor K went through this exact point. And we discussed it. If you aren't going to read the whole thread before squeezing in something, don't post.

[JDGloom]

I did read everything, and I don't know why you'd assume I didn't. The flaws weren't in the further discussion - the flaw was in your initial premise.

And in addition, as not a moderator here on these boards, but a member of this community in general, I will post where ever I like. You are not in charge, and you do not have any right to dictate your preferences. Please try to remember that.

Thanks,

-Jason

[elitedesolator]

Alright, I'm not your mother and I can't tell you what to do.

[Memo333]

Lol...its weird...the list never touched GB...everyone ranted..now tele dad is top top, now nobody rants about GB because they arent competitive...fun with pojoers.

[MidKnightLT]

Totally agree with the original post..


It is a bit sad that people already forfeit the possibilities to ban overpowered cards, since they realise that UDEnami won't have the guts to ban them anytime soon..

I guess that's why we see people suggest stuff like limiting malicious instead of banning broken cards like reborn/CCV/DAD..
I realise that business is business, but.I don't know xD
It is a bit stupid when the company which manages the game consciously allows overpowered cards ingame for personal reasons..(lure money out of players by stuff like DAD or keep casual players ingame by allowing broken cards like monster reborn.We all know little kids just LOVE to win by using their "MOST POWERFUL!" cards")

But whatever, **** IT! xD

[PegasusX_MJH]

While I agree that people making up their own banlists on this forum shouldn't be restricted to what they think UDE and Konami would do, simply because we have the actual Forbidden/Limited List to show everyone what UDE and Konami wants to do with the list.

But as someone who once in awhile reads some of these lists, it's clear to me that people really need to keep reality in check when coming up with some of these ban choices. Now I'm not talking about cards like Crush Card Virus or Dark Armed Dragon, we know why those cards haven't been banned on the real list, but it still makes sense why you would ban them on your list and no one will mock you for it.

No, it's when people start putting cards that are neither broken or even played like Armed Samurai - Ben Kai or Superalloy Beast Raptinus on ban lists and expect people to understand the lists or take your opinion seriously. And before you say it, it's not just Quiff and Nuuuf who do this, too often with these do-it-yourself ban lists I see card choices like those that just immediately show us that not just "realism" but plain old common sense has been lost in these Forums.

Now I'm not completely anti-metabomb lists, I do think they can work, but only if the reasons for banning a card are using a realistic point of view, as in two people actually sitting down to play this game to have fun realistic. But when you don't use that point of view, the results show, then you can't blame people for being dismissive and saying your list sucks.