How do people percieve others as pro or cheater

[Aresstar5]

Alright now Im finally getting a little tired of whats going on. People always argue that credentials dont mean anything in this game. My question after being to so many competitive scenerios is, how are you able to tell if someone is a really good player or is simply a shady cheater who will resort to anything to win in this game. Take for instance someone with multipule day 2's and wins such as fili luna or emon or any others. How do people determine whether or not they are cheaters or just really good. I made this thread cause I am personally sick and tired of people sitting behind their computer screen and calling other people cheaters for being consistent. And going on a more "goofier" tangent, what is the whole thing with clothing such as ghetto hoodies got to do with people being pros or cheaters cause thats all people have been talking about. Please discuss any and all thoughts about how people precieve a certian duelist a pro or cheater.

[Stewie Griffin]

Alright now Im finally getting a little tired of whats going on. People always argue that credentials dont mean anything in this game. My question after being to so many competitive scenerios is, how are you able to tell if someone is a really good player or is simply a shady cheater who will resort to anything to win in this game. Take for instance someone with multipule day 2's and wins such as fili luna or emon or any others. How do people determine whether or not they are cheaters or just really good. I made this thread cause I am personally sick and tired of people sitting behind their computer screen and calling other people cheaters for being consistent. And going on a more "goofier" tangent, what is the whole thing with clothing such as ghetto hoodies got to do with people being pros or cheaters cause thats all people have been talking about. Please discuss any and all thoughts about how people precieve a certian duelist a pro or cheater.
Most of them base their opinions soley on those of others since they have no first hand perspective on the matter. Everyone on here has something to say about Emon/other people even though those people have never seen Emon play and have no proof on what he/they did or did not do.

[Aresstar5]

Most of them base their opinions soley on those of others since they have no first hand perspective on the matter. Everyone on here has something to say about Emon/other people even though those people have never seen Emon play and have no proof on what he/they did or did not do.

So pretty much when a trend is created about someone or something (in regards to people all of a sudden wearing and winning jumps with hoodies) there is no way to escape negative perception that others have over u or another certian person?

[Crown_Axe]

there are no pros in YGO

[Shadow of Death]

it's all just another excuse.

[The_Dark_Monarch]

I go on the number of times they win. Nobody can be sure though. I just wonder why no scrub with a rogue deck has ever won out of sheer arse yet?

[JoeyGuerrero]

Well, the only ways you can be "consistent" in a game based largely on luck is one of two ways:
1.) Getting really lucky all the time
2.) Cheating

And since the first one is extremely odd, people tend to think those who do good often cheat. Even the best players WILL lose if they open with a hand full of crap. The only way skill plays a factor is by basically knowing the rules of your cards, and how they can be used. And an average player like me knows all that of this. So, skill really doesn't exist in any card game, unless you either count what I just said or blind guessing that ultimately benefits you as skill. And I don't count "reading" your opponent as skill either. People see someone like Fili Luna win or do well a lot, and they wonder, "what makes him any "better" than me"? And I (as well as many others) see that there really is nothing that makes him "better" than me, so many then think the only way he could do better is by cheating. And they are right to have this suspicion. But luck exists too. However, skill in a card game is very limited.

[sasuke2015]

phili is just good because i play with him at this local, he went to. there are also couple of the top player in texas who plays there

OH YEA HES MY IDOL!!!!!!!!!!

[Shadow of Death]

Well, the only ways you can be "consistent" in a game based largely on luck is one of two ways:
1.) Getting really lucky all the time
2.) Cheating

And since the first one is extremely odd, people tend to think those who do good often cheat. Even the best players WILL lose if they open with a hand full of crap. The only way skill plays a factor is by basically knowing the rules of your cards, and how they can be used. And an average player like me knows all that of this. So, skill really doesn't exist in any card game, unless you either count what I just said or blind guessing that ultimately benefits you as skill. And I don't count "reading" your opponent as skill either. People see someone like Fili Luna win or do well a lot, and they wonder, "what makes him any "better" than me"? And I (as well as many others) see that there really is nothing that makes him "better" than me, so many then think the only way he could do better is by cheating. And they are right to have this suspicion. But luck exists too. However, skill in a card game is very limited.

actually there is skill in this card game. It's a different kind of skill. The ability to make reads on your opponent so you can make plays with the best rewards and lowest risk to costing you the game. Seems easy, but given many scenarios that could make or break the game at any moment there's many ways a turn can be played, and that alone may show the skill of a player. When I read feature matches, or watch games played by top players or people who I consider good in this game, I try to figure out why they played a move a certain way. Also being able to play around a certain play, and adapt to the fast paced situations this game creates can also be skillful. Players that are well recognized have had feature matches vs. rogue decks that are completely unexpected, and even at times are originally bewildered by the deck, but manage to pull through and play around it to the best of their ability.

While luck is a factor in any card game, there is some degrees of skill in this game which is why certain players are more consistent than not. If you play online the same thing occurs. There's some really consistent people who play online like the guys who top8 regularly, this is because they are skillful players at the game. If the game was entirely luckbased it'd be impossible to have a winning record any higher than 50% unless you do infact cheat. I'd say I win 66-75% of the games I play on a regular basis, and I do not cheat. I play to the best of my abilities, and am able to pull out wins slightly more often than losses.

[TeslaMouse]

credentials dont matter because the person could have cheated to get them or lucksaked to get them.

even a person who doesnt play competetive could wind up being an SJC chapmion if they tried hard enough.

there are no pros in this game, only lucksakers (coughdemisecough), decent people, SJC champions, cheaters, noobs, or scrubs.

[JoeyGuerrero]

actually there is skill in this card game. It's a different kind of skill. The ability to make reads on your opponent so you can make plays with the best rewards and lowest risk to costing you the game. Seems easy, but given many scenarios that could make or break the game at any moment there's many ways a turn can be played, and that alone may show the skill of a player. When I read feature matches, or watch games played by top players or people who I consider good in this game, I try to figure out why they played a move a certain way. Also being able to play around a certain play, and adapt to the fast paced situations this game creates can also be skillful. Players that are well recognized have had feature matches vs. rogue decks that are completely unexpected, and even at times are originally bewildered by the deck, but manage to pull through and play around it to the best of their ability.

While luck is a factor in any card game, there is some degrees of skill in this game which is why certain players are more consistent than not. If you play online the same thing occurs. There's some really consistent people who play online like the guys who top8 regularly, this is because they are skillful players at the game. If the game was entirely luckbased it'd be impossible to have a winning record any higher than 50% unless you do infact cheat. I'd say I win 66-75% of the games I play on a regular basis, and I do not cheat. I play to the best of my abilities, and am able to pull out wins slightly more often than losses.

Reading is not skill. It is basically educated guessing.

[Minato Namikaze]

I seriously doubt any of them start off as cheaters. Most likely the pressure of winning got to them so they succombed to cheating so they could proove that they weren't a one-hit wonder.

Thats my theory. Its just like how students with 4.0 GPA's get caught cheating because the pressure of grades got to them. If you want me to go into further detail, I will. But for now thats my 2 cents.

[smallYGOpro]

there are no pros in this game, only lucksakers (coughdemisecough), decent people, SJC champions, cheaters, noobs, or scrubs.

So basically....you covered everybody. :)

[TeslaMouse]

So basically....you covered everybody. :)

whos everybody lol and yes i guess i did:)

[Requiem_Spirit]

credentials dont matter because the person could have cheated to get them or lucksaked to get them.

even a person who doesnt play competetive could wind up being an SJC chapmion if they tried hard enough.

there are no pros in this game, only lucksakers (coughdemisecough), decent people, SJC champions, cheaters, noobs, or scrubs.

Lucksack is just an excuse. Unless the player runs Re-Roll and Second Toin Toss Decks, there is no lucksacking whatsoever.

Unless you look at the game as a 99.9% luck game. Then everything is lucksack :p

[BARANOWSKI]

i know a lot of players who are very good and completely clean. however they have never even top 16ed a Jump. my suspicion as to why that happens is that honest players who don't cheat can't compare to how huge the luck factor is no matter how good they are. that is why i believe it is very suspicious of ppl who continuously top 16 Jumps.

[JoeyGuerrero]

i know a lot of players who are very good and completely clean. however they have never even top 16ed a Jump. my suspicion as to why that happens is that honest players who don't cheat can't compare to how huge the luck factor is no matter how good they are. that is why i believe it is very suspicious of ppl who continuously top 16 Jumps.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I too know several really good and honest players. And only 1 of them ever did anything (top 4ed a regional) ever.

[Requiem_Spirit]

Fili
(http://metagame.com/uploads/YuGiOh/2007/sanmateo/day1/R1FMatch-Fili.jpg)
Look at him, sitting there, all "innocent" like.

Now analyze his mouth...Why is it bulging you say? BECAUSE HE PUT CARDS IN HIS MOUTH! And he will spit them out when coughing the other way!

And his hands...why are they blurry? Is he playing mind games with Jerry?

Fili...again (http://metagame.com/uploads/YuGiOh/2007/sanmateo/day2/T4-Fili.jpg)

Now we see him distracting the public by pointing at his opponent, while his other hand sneaks down to grab a few cards!


Now watch his expression as he shuffles... "suspiciously"
Fili Shuffling (http://metagame.com/uploads/YuGiOh/2007/sanmateo/day2/T8-Fili.jpg)
And then, Fili Shuffling Again (http://metagame.com/uploads/YuGiOh/2007/sanmateo/day2/Finals-Fili.jpg)

Odd enough?












Or maybe it's gum, the camera was funky, and he's just messin' with his opponent.

That last one was two different duels, but very similar, eh?

[Minato Namikaze]

i know a lot of players who are very good and completely clean. however they have never even top 16ed a Jump. my suspicion as to why that happens is that honest players who don't cheat can't compare to how huge the luck factor is no matter how good they are. that is why i believe it is very suspicious of ppl who continuously top 16 Jumps.

A little cynical aren't we?

[OneTurnKo_king]

people who always are rude cause thats just telling me "hurray up i wanna pick up the cards under my mat" lucksack is nuthing do to with this game even demise need some skill cause if your stupid your can just **** your self over like calling proity to blow up the field then they activate torrential

[JoeyGuerrero]

Fili
(http://metagame.com/uploads/YuGiOh/2007/sanmateo/day1/R1FMatch-Fili.jpg)
Look at him, sitting there, all "innocent" like.

Now analyze his mouth...Why is it bulging you say? BECAUSE HE PUT CARDS IN HIS MOUTH! And he will spit them out when coughing the other way!

And his hands...why are they blurry? Is he playing mind games with Jerry?















Or maybe it's gum and the camera was funky

I honestly think you don't understand just how easy cheating is.

[Requiem_Spirit]

I honestly think you don't understand just how easy cheating is.

I edited. :D

[Patrick Murray]

I have only accused one person of cheating after I played him a few times. He continuously draw the same hand minus 1 different card duel each duel. Now yes some of the cards he used were run in 3's giving him a fair chance to draw into one, but always he had 2 or 3 raiza, MST or Heavy, Frog (everytime 1st hand), GK Spy, and a Dark Bride. When I played he always tried to rush my turn and play out his making it more likely for me to make a mistake. Then when I called out his moves he got mad because he felt like I placed him on the spot. Lets just say when he was deck checked at a regional I was attending he got himself a game lose for fighting with a judge for shuffling his deck all around.

The game requires planning and yes a better understanding of your opponents body language. Over all I do not see cheating to be a issue unless it becomes painfully obvious like in the story above of that guy who could not win unless he stacked his deck.

[Judai]

Pro card games!

[JoeyGuerrero]

Well, with all the ways to cheat, stack, hide cards, draw extra, etc there are (and many are relatively easy) I think there's probably a lot higher a level of cheating than many think.

[Jinjuriken]

I think that it is kind of odd to see a lot of the same people in the top 16 at nearly every SJC. Despite the changes in format and the Ban List, there are the players that are always there. I know that there are good players and skill is part of this game. Skill is needed to know how and when to use the cards in your deck at right time and in the right manner. I am not saying that everyone cheats or that there is wide spread cheating. With the shear number of people that attend the SJCs and the fact that there is a lot of netdecking it just doesn't seem plausible that these "good players/pros" don't lose or just barely lose, but only lose to "known players". However they never seem to lose to what would be considered unknown players, good, noob, scrub, or otherwise. Honestly no one can draw great hands game after game for nine rounds. Notice when Metagame does their on-site reporting their "feature matches," always involve known players. Ask yourselves this, have we ever heard of an unknown player upsetting a "pro player" ? I can't say I've heard of it, but if it has happened please show me. I don't know about anyone else but I would love to see more parody in the game, not just the same 16 players always in the top. These are just my thoughts, and as for the "hoody issue" UDE should just have a rule that says no jackets/coats or anything else that could hide cards and each players should ask the other to lift their mat periodicly to check for hidden cards.

[The_Dark_Monarch]

That is exactly the same thing I said, only I managed to condense it into 3 short sentences.lol

[CyberOverload2]

I think that it is kind of odd to see a lot of the same people in the top 16 at nearly every SJC. Despite the changes in format and the Ban List, there are the players that are always there. I know that there are good players and skill is part of this game. Skill is needed to know how and when to use the cards in your deck at right time and in the right manner. I am not saying that everyone cheats or that there is wide spread cheating. With the shear number of people that attend the SJCs and the fact that there is a lot of netdecking it just doesn't seem plausible that these "good players/pros" don't lose or just barely lose, but only lose to "known players". However they never seem to lose to what would be considered unknown players, good, noob, scrub, or otherwise. Honestly no one can draw great hands game after game for nine rounds. Notice when Metagame does their on-site reporting their "feature matches," always involve known players. Ask yourselves this, have we ever heard of an unknown player upsetting a "pro player" ? I can't say I've heard of it, but if it has happened please show me. I don't know about anyone else but I would love to see more parody in the game, not just the same 16 players always in the top. These are just my thoughts, and as for the "hoody issue" UDE should just have a rule that says no jackets/coats or anything else that could hide cards and each players should ask the other to lift their mat periodicly to check for hidden cards.

ude cant ban someone from playing in a tournament if they were a hoody. Lawsuits would fly at any company for doing something that stuipid.

The Reason you see the same top players at SJC's is first their rank is reall high with the tie breakers what ever else mantis does to keep track of points. They already know what they are going to run at the next Jump a month before it happens. Most people reading this build a janky deck the night before and dont test it aganist every teir 1 deck.

The Retarts dont keep up to date. Ive meet a ton of people that are never up to date which is to there loss. Besides I why care if metagame only puts a few people on their site? Most of the stuff metagame talks about is trash anyway.

[Mengde]

I seriously doubt any of them start off as cheaters. Most likely the pressure of winning got to them so they succombed to cheating so they could proove that they weren't a one-hit wonder.

Thats my theory. Its just like how students with 4.0 GPA's get caught cheating because the pressure of grades got to them. If you want me to go into further detail, I will. But for now thats my 2 cents.

That's one point I was going to make, almost verbatim. Those who do cheat at the highest echelons of play, regardless of how few or how many there are, don't cheat due to a lack of skill, but due to a heavy pressure to win. There's no denying that people like Ghanean and LaBounty are exceptional duelists. Regardless of what they they did or didn't do (and I'm not even going to venture a guess regarding guilt), it would be idiotic to say that if they did indeed cheat, they would have done so due to a deficiency of dueling ability. If they did, it would have been because they were on such a high pedestal that they were afraid to fall from it.

I basically compare "cheaters" in the top levels of Yu-Gi-Oh! tournament play to those who take performance enhancing drugs in professional sports. You don't win a professional sports contract as a prize in a Cracker Jack box. You become a professional sports player due to your ability and hard work. And then, when you're at such a level of competition, the pressure to succeed becomes so great that you're willing to do virtually anything to not fail.

In regard to any given person cheating, in theory, you can pretty much cheat in a particular duel in hundreds, if not thousands, of different ways. You seriously could write a book on how to cheat at a premier Yu-Gi-Oh! event. Hell, this isn't just limited to YGO, but it fits the premier events concept for any card game.

The problem YGO has is the fact there's such a heavy air of paranoia that doesn't exist on nearly the same level in other major card games. If you cheat at casino poker, for example, and you get caught, there's a good chance you may receive physical harm. In Magic the Gathering, if you're a big name and if you cheat, it'll likely make huge news and not get swept under the rug under a sea of controversy.

Now, this isn't a call for necessarily doing bodily harm to or running down the reputations of anyone who cheats at YGO. This isn't even necessarily a call to enforce harsher sanctions against those who cheat. What I've been saying all along, and I shall reiterate here, is that UDE needs to actively address the cheating problem and combat it in an effective manner, sparing no resource in the process. UDE needs to give confidence back to up and coming duelists in the tournament scene and UDE also needs to make every effort to destroy any excuses people have for losing. If UDE can take adequate measures to guarantee their tournaments are on the level and remove any reasonable doubt from the minds (and ammunition from the mouths) of duelists that they don't have an honest opportunity to succeed, then the paranoia and the debate will lessen greatly.

[CyberOverload2]

Our top player in our state has never been acussed as a cheater. He'll let us suffle his deck for an hour or let us have someone else draw for him and he still wins.

If fili, Shane, and all the other top players play a match where the judge hands them the card off the top of their deck and they still win then most losers reading this would have to Close their Big F mouths. Most people cant take a hit to their ego, some people get tired of losing, but when a top player in there local tries to give them advice and the dont take, well that shows they want to remain in the dark.

[TeslaMouse]

Our top player in our state has never been acussed as a cheater. He'll let us suffle his deck for an hour or let us have someone else draw for him and he still wins.

If fili, Shane, and all the other top players play a match where the judge hands them the card off the top of their deck and they still win then most losers reading this would have to Close their Big F mouths. Most people cant take a hit to their ego, some people get tired of losing, but when a top player in there local tries to give them advice and the dont take, well that shows they want to remain in the dark.

I never said they cheated, i just said there are people who cheat:confused:

[Shadow of Death]

Reading is not skill. It is basically educated guessing.

It takes a specific type of skill to make reads, much less accurate ones, and can be a dividing factor between two players.

[KingOfKings]

Alright let me try this agian. I had this arguement hundreds of times, but i really want to take it home this time.

Skill's of Yugioh


Skill can be making a deck to the certain metagame, create new techs, and even take a suprizing deck and change the whole metagame as we seen players do.

Knowing how to correctly side, knowing what to side in and what to side out can be a skill. What to put into your side in the first place is a another decent skill.

Knowing how to make certain reads in a certain situations. Such as knowing when to overextend and when not to. To read a mirror force or to read a torrential. To this over this card in a certain situation. There are different types of situations where if you knew how to read it, you can do better if you didn't. That's what wins out some games.

Playing the cards the best it can be possibly played. When you play each hand perfect is a skill. Making no misplays is what makes people do better than others. Making 0 misplays is what is done by most good players.

Knowing a lot of the new cards/sets/new decks comming out before everyone does.

Knowing a lot of rulings about the game.

When you know how not to get cheated. Yes it is probably one of the best skills. When you can protect your self and have a fair game and know when to call a judge on your opponent and catch him cheating is a skill.

When you know how each deck in the metagame works.



Luck


I said this hundreds of times, that luck is a huge factor and which leads me to believe that the game is almost no skill at all, because of it.

Let me go over the skill's i mentioned step by step and then say how luck may be involved

Building new decks and creating new techs. Ok some don't work and some do, and some people dont even test these decks. The one's that do and do good can be called skilled players. Then you have a field of people Net-deck.

Side decking is easily done by any decent player. Knowing how to side vs this and this is almost simple. Ok say you side decked very good. Now it all depends if you draw your key side decked cards. If you don't it was random luck that made you lose, right? If you won, that means you side decked the best you can and it pulled you the win. You can just hope to draw those cards and thats the luck.

Ok making reads can win you the game, but it can also do nothing. You can read all you want, but if your oponent has a better hand, you can't do anything. Your helpless. Reading is a skill do, we can def. say it is a skill.

Playing no misplays. Well a lot of decent players make some misplays here and there. But, in some cases decent players may make no misplays and beat a better player, because of luck. He may just out draw the better player.

Knowing new sets/cards isn't as important, but i guess its almost a skill. No luck here.

Knowing rulings is always good so it is a skill. No luck here.

Not being cheated is def. a skill. No luck here obv.

Knowing how each deck works is an ok skill. No luck here.
Ok let me now explain deck building. You can build any deck you want, but you will always have the luck of playing a better/worse matchup depending on your pairing which is luck.

It let's players win more often with a more consistent than that beat's most decks in the format which can be considered skill. Taking the best deck you can, which handles most deck is the best idea. Having a good matchup is important,

Ok the starting Hand and drawing each card is luck. Playing them out correctly and making good reads in each situation is skill.

I really think playing each hand is simple, but i learned not everyone can do it. I always thought it was easy, and it comes second nature to me, so i guess this game does have skill.


In conclusion, there is a lot of luck depending on what you draw in your starting hand and draw phases, but it does take skill to play each card correctly, make certain reads in certain situations, knowing how to side deck properly, and knowing how not to get cheated.

Cheating

Luck is only a Factor when two players are both the same skill.

The only problem i have is consistancy.

"There is only a certain level you can achieve in Yugioh, Once you become good, you can't get any better."

Once you know, how to play correctly, you will play like any other good player. Now it all depends on Luck.

The problem i have is some players are doing much better than every other player.

For example if Player X is as good as Player Y. But, player X does better in 6-7 jump's. Does that mean Y is unlucky or does that mean X is Lucky? Could it mean X cheated? Yes, it could. It is probably the reason why X is doing better than Y. If they are matches in skill, luck is involved, but it shouldn't be that far off that luck takes that big of an effect.

We can admit that if a player does well more than others, luck is def involved.

When one does better than every other good player more than once over and over, something is up. The game is filled with luck and enough skill to be even playable. When a player does well over and over and over better than every other good player out there, then there is only one thing to say, and that is he is cheating.

I may of said this game has no skill at all in the past, but i realized that some players arent all the same, and some people don't pay as much attension. So i learned there is some skill after all, but not that much that players are doing so good, better than everyone else.

Creds don't and do matter. They are a form of you done something. If Player X won a sjc and player Y didn't. Player Y can't hes better than player X, because of what player X has accomplished. So i guess creds matter only a little.

[SKAK]

You're good if:

*you top16 and your deck is superior to most/all of the others in top16
*you don't top16 but post a report about bad beats and your deck is superior to most/all of what top16'd
*when you talk about YGO theory/strategy most established good players (like OD or SF) agree with you
*you play/test deck types BEFORE they ever top16 and become netdecked
*you make less misplays than someone who has 3167858392 creds
*you aren't Tony Mera

[KingOfKings]

You're good if:

*you top16 and your deck is superior to most/all of the others in top16
*you don't top16 but post a report about bad beats and your deck is superior to most/all of what top16'd
*when you talk about YGO theory/strategy most established good players (like OD or SF) agree with you
*you play/test deck types BEFORE they ever top16 and become netdecked
*you make less misplays than someone who has 3167858392 creds
*you aren't SKAK A.KA. Random scrub.

Lol..... Damn chill homie.. lol but, anyways i never said i was a good player, but i'm also not a bad player. So Mr. talk why are you bad?

[Shadow of Death]

You're good if:

*you top16 and your deck is superior to most/all of the others in top16
*you don't top16 but post a report about bad beats and your deck is superior to most/all of what top16'd
*when you talk about YGO theory/strategy most established good players (like OD or SF) agree with you
*you play/test deck types BEFORE they ever top16 and become netdecked
*you make less misplays than someone who has 3167858392 creds
*you aren't Tony Mera

good game.

[KingOfKings]

good game.

Never got to really meet you good since you ran away at the sjc. But since im going to the 1k in your state, maybe we can settle it in some matches of money or cards?

[SKAK]

Lol..... Damn chill homie.. lol but, anyways i never said i was a good player, but i'm also not a bad player. So Mr. talk why are you bad?

U mad ?

[Shadow of Death]

Never got to really meet you good since you ran away at the sjc. But since im going to the 1k in your state, maybe we can settle it in some matches of money or cards?

I didn't run away from you? lolwut.

and sure. I don't know what we're settling, but w/e.

[Nuuuuf]

If you have ma-a-aagic powers to make Crush Card Virus magically rise to the top of your deck, then you're pro.

[Jinjuriken]

ude cant ban someone from playing in a tournament if they were a hoody. Lawsuits would fly at any company for doing something that stuipid.

The Reason you see the same top players at SJC's is first their rank is reall high with the tie breakers what ever else mantis does to keep track of points. They already know what they are going to run at the next Jump a month before it happens. Most people reading this build a janky deck the night before and dont test it aganist every teir 1 deck.

The Retarts dont keep up to date. Ive meet a ton of people that are never up to date which is to there loss. Besides I why care if metagame only puts a few people on their site? Most of the stuff metagame talks about is trash anyway.

Have any of the SJC winners won the National or World tournament? If not, then why haven't they? Also I never said to ban people who wear hoodys, just not allow them to wear them while they play. I agree that some make their decks hastily and don't test them. Those folks get what they get in that situation. I do understand how the tournament system works at these events, so no need to explain the tie breaker system. I mention Meta-game because that is where I see the tournament coverage for the SJC I don't attend.

[CyberOverload2]

Have any of the SJC winners won the National or World tournament? If not, then why haven't they? Also I never said to ban people who wear hoodys, just not allow them to wear them while they play. I agree that some make their decks hastily and don't test them. Those folks get what they get in that situation. I do understand how the tournament system works at these events, so no need to explain the tie breaker system. I mention Meta-game because that is where I see the tournament coverage for the SJC I don't attend.


you just cant ban someone from playing because what they are wearing. Someone will get smart were something that if made taken off they can make it into a racial thing. Besides the SJC reports, new cards that are worth running and the articles by Bryan Camareno the rest of the stuff is Trash. The Hastily people will always lose because they are just dumb.

[Titleist]

At the end of day 1 UpperDeck should give each of the top 16 players a lie detector test:

"Did you cheat during the tournament today?"

[Aarikku]

IMO, a pro is someone who gets prizes for playing card games. A cheater is someone who cheats.

[Jinjuriken]

you just cant ban someone from playing because what they are wearing. Someone will get smart were something that if made taken off they can make it into a racial thing. Besides the SJC reports, new cards that are worth running and the articles by Bryan Camareno the rest of the stuff is Trash. The Hastily people will always lose because they are just dumb.

Man sharpen your reading skills I didn't write anything about banning anyone. I said not to allow them to wear the hoddy/jacket while they play, that's all. Just your shirt, pants, shoes and socks. Again I said nothing about banning anyone. The racial card being played is just ignorance and an excuse. I am not a Meta-game supporter I find it to be as useful as you do.

[Yellow]

Just your shirt, pants, shoes and socks. Again I said nothing about banning anyone.

LOL. No underpants. COMMANDO!:D

{filler}

[Raida]

as long as cheaters dont get caught, they are pro.

[Requiem_Spirit]

as long as cheaters dont get caught, they are pro.

And as long as a person gets away with murder, they're clean...Give me a break. He/She, no matter how heartless, will feel guilt in the long run.

[Raida]

And as long as a person gets away with murder, they're clean...Give me a break. He/She, no matter how heartless, will feel guilt in the long run.

so? from other peoples' views, he/she would be clean...

[Requiem_Spirit]

so? from other peoples' views, he/she would be clean...

Here's a metaphor
If a person just got out of the shower, but missed a spot, is he/she completely clean? Answer is No

Now the metaphor is that the murderer him/herself is that spot. So as long as someone, doesn't matter who, knows, he/she is not clean.

[Raida]

Here's a metaphor
If a person just got out of the shower, but missed a spot, is he/she completely clean? Answer is No

Now the metaphor is that the murderer him/herself is that spot. So as long as someone, doesn't matter who, knows, he/she is not clean.

in your metaphor, true that person might not be 'clean', but as long as no one knows, he/she would be then.

bottom line is, as long as no one finds out, it doesnt matter. thousand or million people commint crimes everyday, but if no one ever finds out and turn them in, they are 'clean' to everybody else.

same as ygo here, thoe SJC champs might have cheated all the way here, but if nobody find out about that, they would be considered as skillful.

[the thunder monarch]

in your metaphor, true that person might not be 'clean', but as long as no one knows, he/she would be then.

bottom line is, as long as no one finds out, it doesnt matter. thousand or million people commint crimes everyday, but if no one ever finds out and turn them in, they are 'clean' to everybody else.

same as ygo here, thoe SJC champs might have cheated all the way here, but if nobody find out about that, they would be considered as skillful.

That is one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen. It is so stupid I think it just made me go blind.

[Raida]

That is one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen. It is so stupid I think it just made me go blind.

however stupid it could be, it is still true. you people are just being too honest sometimes.

[Swordstrike]

Well, the only ways you can be "consistent" in a game based largely on luck is one of two ways:
1.) Getting really lucky all the time
2.) Cheating

And since the first one is extremely odd, people tend to think those who do good often cheat. Even the best players WILL lose if they open with a hand full of crap. The only way skill plays a factor is by basically knowing the rules of your cards, and how they can be used. And an average player like me knows all that of this. So, skill really doesn't exist in any card game, unless you either count what I just said or blind guessing that ultimately benefits you as skill. And I don't count "reading" your opponent as skill either. People see someone like Fili Luna win or do well a lot, and they wonder, "what makes him any "better" than me"? And I (as well as many others) see that there really is nothing that makes him "better" than me, so many then think the only way he could do better is by cheating. And they are right to have this suspicion. But luck exists too. However, skill in a card game is very limited.

actually there is skill in this card game. It's a different kind of skill. The ability to make reads on your opponent so you can make plays with the best rewards and lowest risk to costing you the game. Seems easy, but given many scenarios that could make or break the game at any moment there's many ways a turn can be played, and that alone may show the skill of a player. When I read feature matches, or watch games played by top players or people who I consider good in this game, I try to figure out why they played a move a certain way. Also being able to play around a certain play, and adapt to the fast paced situations this game creates can also be skillful. Players that are well recognized have had feature matches vs. rogue decks that are completely unexpected, and even at times are originally bewildered by the deck, but manage to pull through and play around it to the best of their ability.

While luck is a factor in any card game, there is some degrees of skill in this game which is why certain players are more consistent than not. If you play online the same thing occurs. There's some really consistent people who play online like the guys who top8 regularly, this is because they are skillful players at the game. If the game was entirely luckbased it'd be impossible to have a winning record any higher than 50% unless you do infact cheat. I'd say I win 66-75% of the games I play on a regular basis, and I do not cheat. I play to the best of my abilities, and am able to pull out wins slightly more often than losses.

I think Joey is right in some parts, while I think skill is involved, its not the reason behind winning, I was in this game for years before I had quit basically because cheating is what was running this game, not ruining it, but RUNNING it. Skill is only about 20% of the game, 20% involves nothing more then when
to play the card and knowing the rules of the card you got.

Questions I ask is the same questions some of you is asking, why hasnt these so called "GOOD" players like Emon and Fili lost due to bad hands or luck? We have seen the same thing in past players as well that ended up being cheaters and suspended by Upperdeck, remember St Claire? I can recall a couple more 2 like them but I cant think of their names right now since it was a while back, but I think one of them was from Team Comic Oddysey to. I wouldnt hesistate to lable Emon or Fili as cheaters, afterall, that topic on here "How to Cheat" is perfect example of how to get by with it and is the most common methods used in which you literally wont be caught.

Additional Comment:

Our top player in our state has never been acussed as a cheater. He'll let us suffle his deck for an hour or let us have someone else draw for him and he still wins.

If fili, Shane, and all the other top players play a match where the judge hands them the card off the top of their deck and they still win then most losers reading this would have to Close their Big F mouths. Most people cant take a hit to their ego, some people get tired of losing, but when a top player in there local tries to give them advice and the dont take, well that shows they want to remain in the dark.


Maybe, lets see the big machos like Emon, Fili or anyone pick up a random shuffled deck shuffled by someone else every game during 1 tournament and then lets see where they go tournament wise. Considering the deck shuffling is where the cheating is most likely at.

Additional Comment:

You want proof? its circumstantial evidence though I guess. But why can any other TCG send American duelist to a world tournament and win it almost every year yet Yugioh which has been out since what? 2001-02 in the U.S. and not one American has come close to taking worlds.

Reason for that........ Well the best players are not in Worlds to start with. If the best players from the U.S. were in worlds every year, I am sure 3-4 of those years would result in the U.S. duelist taking worlds. Argument can almost be said for the same thing about Nationals to, which can tell you that this game has serious cheating problems that go down to the smallest of tournaments.

[GladBeastGyzarus]

In my opinion, a pro is someone who can win with any deck. I'm not saying someone who consistently top 8's with Destiny Heroes. Let's face it, if I had a Crush Card Virus I'd be able to top if I drew it turn 1 every game.

A cheat basicly is someone's who's over consistent. I'm not pointing finger at Fili at all. Do I think it's wierd that he has 3 jump wins? Yah, I do. When he won that 3rd jump alarms basicly started going off and my heard saying "cheat, cheat!" Only because I'll admit it, I was an Emon fan. Now I'm starting to think anyone who has 3+ jump wins and is really consistent must be a cheater. This isn't always right, but in my opinion is what I perceive as a cheater. If something is too good to be true, odds are it is.

[Swordstrike]

In my opinion, a pro is someone who can win with any deck. I'm not saying someone who consistently top 8's with Destiny Heroes. Let's face it, if I had a Crush Card Virus I'd be able to top if I drew it turn 1 every game.

A cheat basicly is someone's who's over consistent. I'm not pointing finger at Fili at all. Do I think it's wierd that he has 3 jump wins? Yah, I do. When he won that 3rd jump alarms basicly started going off and my heard saying "cheat, cheat!" Only because I'll admit it, I was an Emon fan. Now I'm starting to think anyone who has 3+ jump wins and is really consistent must be a cheater. This isn't always right, but in my opinion is what I perceive as a cheater. If something is too good to be true, odds are it is.


its the idea also that the way this game is designed, the level of skill involved in this game only goes to a point, meaning I dont think its possible for 1-2 people to stand out in a crowd of 100 duelist who all had at least won a regional had they not cheat, I think you can only be so smart at this game and nothing over it, this is why when people like Fili, Emon, St Claire were winning tournments and never losing it raised questions, its hard for me to say theirs really a best player in the world or even the country but I am more keen on saying theirs alot of players on the same level and all of them would be classified as the best but none of them is better then the other. The idea that this game is so dependent on the drawing of certain cards should set off any alarms if someone starts dominating in such fashions as Fili has, I said the same thing regarding Roy St Claire to, eventually it caught up to him where he was suspended until 2009 I think.


I cant help notice someone posting a pic of Fili, cant help notice that one pic of him shuffling should tell you something in how hes shuffling that deck, 3-4 cards in his hand looking straight at them while shuffling. All you have to is shuffle, get your best cards, stick em on the bottom all in 1 stack, when your opponent cuts, odds are 80% of the time you going open up with a god hand, if not those stacked cards is going to come into play very soon.

[Geodude75]

As said before, skill is only so much in this game. Eventually it comes down to how starts with the better hand. How do you get consistent/god hands for 7 rounds straight in a jump? Some sort of stacking/marked cards seems logical.

[Swordstrike]

As said before, skill is only so much in this game. Eventually it comes down to how starts with the better hand. How do you get consistent/god hands for 7 rounds straight in a jump? Some sort of stacking/marked cards seems logical.


or in Filis case, 3 straight SJC's.

[Requiem_Spirit]

A great hand doesn't make the duelist.
The next cards make it! :D

But seriously, everytime I get a bad hand, I know it cannot get worse, and I'm right. Hold 'em off a bit, and explode. Probably what many do.

Innocent until proven guilty.

[LaBounty]

The only way to know if someone is a cheater is to watch how good they are for your self. Don't listen to other people because all they are is a hater. You guys can call me a cheater all you want because someone said i "Marked a Sangan" lol who would risk all I have in this game to mark a Sangan? i would be up for the lie detector test tho. thats a good idea, but will never happen.

[king trill]

ok fili doesnt stack and emon doesnt either it seems kinda pointless to stack in a game where you have a 40+ card decks and your opponent constantly gets to cut and if you really have suspicions then shuffle your opponents deck and let them cut it like emon said in the gen con he drew a jank hand that had d draw no crush card and no d heros either

[Swordstrike]

pics worth a thousand words though.

http://metagame.com/uploads/YuGiOh/2007/sanmateo/day2/T8-Fili.jpg


Gee wonder what 3-4 cards hes looking at while shuffling.

[king trill]

Bro Do You Not Look At Your Deck When You Shuffle To Make Sure Your Cards Dont Fall So They Could Call You For Stacking

[Omega Red]

In my opinion, a pro is someone who can win with any deck. I'm not saying someone who consistently top 8's with Destiny Heroes. Let's face it, if I had a Crush Card Virus I'd be able to top if I drew it turn 1 every game.

A cheat basicly is someone's who's over consistent. I'm not pointing finger at Fili at all. Do I think it's wierd that he has 3 jump wins? Yah, I do. When he won that 3rd jump alarms basicly started going off and my heard saying "cheat, cheat!" Only because I'll admit it, I was an Emon fan. Now I'm starting to think anyone who has 3+ jump wins and is really consistent must be a cheater. This isn't always right, but in my opinion is what I perceive as a cheater. If something is too good to be true, odds are it is.

45 cards + a round 1 feature match loss (which inevitably put him in the doldrums and allowed him to cheat lesser players) = SJC win?

Yeah...

He basically won with madcheats.dek. Case closed.

[Centric]

In my opinion, a pro is someone who can win with any deck. I'm not saying someone who consistently top 8's with Destiny Heroes. Let's face it, if I had a Crush Card Virus I'd be able to top if I drew it turn 1 every game.

A cheat basicly is someone's who's over consistent. I'm not pointing finger at Fili at all. Do I think it's wierd that he has 3 jump wins? Yah, I do. When he won that 3rd jump alarms basicly started going off and my heard saying "cheat, cheat!" Only because I'll admit it, I was an Emon fan. Now I'm starting to think anyone who has 3+ jump wins and is really consistent must be a cheater. This isn't always right, but in my opinion is what I perceive as a cheater. If something is too good to be true, odds are it is.

John Jensen technically has 3 and no one has considered him a cheater :p.

[Inu665]

Life is all about perception. People perceive things differently, and are entitled to their own opinions.

You can't stop the haters from hating.

[IceCreamFairy]

To quote Nixon. "I am not a [stacker]"

Thank you

Additional Comment:

In my opinion, a pro is someone who can win with any deck. I'm not saying someone who consistently top 8's with Destiny Heroes. Let's face it, if I had a Crush Card Virus I'd be able to top if I drew it turn 1 every game.

A cheat basicly is someone's who's over consistent. I'm not pointing finger at Fili at all. Do I think it's wierd that he has 3 jump wins? Yah, I do. When he won that 3rd jump alarms basicly started going off and my heard saying "cheat, cheat!" Only because I'll admit it, I was an Emon fan. Now I'm starting to think anyone who has 3+ jump wins and is really consistent must be a cheater. This isn't always right, but in my opinion is what I perceive as a cheater. If something is too good to be true, odds are it is.

Oh please, Fili doesn't cheat. Saying he's a cheat because he won 3 SJC is like saying wrestling is fake because John Cena held the title for over a year... oh ****

[Wake]

On the issue of stacking; simply shuffle your opponent's deck as much as you think is needed. That basically puts the effectiveness of cheating via stacking to 0%. That should bring this issue to a close.

[PJ]

there are no pros in YGO
Fair point, but you know what he meant..

[Titleist]

On the issue of stacking; simply shuffle your opponent's deck as much as you think is needed. That basically puts the effectiveness of cheating via stacking to 0%. That should bring this issue to a close.

How does that stop palming?

[mrpwnage]

This is a card game w/ involves luck. Now Fili is a good player but he has like 7 straight top 16's which is a little to good.

[Bonjwa]

other then cheating the real way people are consistent is having their team mates scooping to get them into the next round or to give them an advantage over another deck in the next round. this also screws over the rogue decks since they usually are some kind of anti-meta deck. then a team mate scoops after beating the rogue deck which pretty much knocks them out becuase they have a loss and that person will scoop making them a horrible tie breaker. then you add in the fact that sjc'c are filled with teams and this allows the same people to always top. this probably causes the consistency even better then cheating would since it is unstoppable compared to cheating which must go unnoticed.

[chicano15]

Why When There Is A Tread Of Cheaters Fili Luna Name Is Always In ,not Trying To Be A Di?? Rider But I Have Seen Him Play At Reginals In Texas A Week Ago And He Those Not Cheat.just Cuz He Won 3 Jumps Those Not Mean That He Cheats.what About Othere Players That You Always See On Metamage Eric Wu,jerry Wang Ho Has Toped Also In San Mateo And Chicago Not Long Ago Is He A Cheater.just Cuz Luna Has Won 3 Jumps .he Is Very Lucky And Has Some Skills.

[PS4Lthekingofsmash]

Something people are ignoring is the amount of SJCs people go to. Fili goes to like, every one, and others may seem consistent for their amount of wins, but they play so often that it ups there chances of doing well.
Just my 2 cents.

[king trill]

okay fili topped 16 about 7 jumps consistently if he had been cheating why has he not won one since san mateo.

[DarkRedMoon]

There is no pros in Yugioh. Pros get paid to do something. Is there anyone thats getting played. I do think there r good players and some cheaters.

[boximus_prime]

how long will it take for ppl to figure out that people usethe term pro to mean that someone is good at the game. stop acting like a smart ass and saying theres no pros in yugioh. were aloud to use the term however we want.

[SSj2TeenGohan184]

No such thing as a pro, and obviously a cheater will do things such as stacking to get the cards they want.

[Pro-Moe]

I really don't care at all what people think of others who play the game.

[IceMaster]

If Fili cheats I know for certin he didnt at Orlando just look at what he placed.

[BlackSayen13]

It is funny to read ...

All i can say is that during all the tournament that i was in as a judge, (mainly regionals, SJCs), the head judge always ask the floor judges to watch very carefully all the "pros" for any suspicious activity.

Any accusation of cheating is taken very serioulsy by the judging staff and is carefully investigate even if the players are not aware of it.

High profile players such as Fili, shane curry, Paul levitin, etc ... (sorry if your name is there...) are under scrutiny a lot during every SJC, it is almost impossible for them to cheat.

I just think that fili is more focus than other and he has the skill to make the best of it with the cards he draw (my definition of a "pro").

[Fortune Teller]

90% of the so called 'Pro' and your admirers are cheaters. This has been proven hundreds of time. Yugioh is a game of luck. Give another pro your deck and he will not be able to perform the same result as the owner of the deck. Why? it's because the owner stack, cheat, lies and steal (like Eddie Guerros of WWE, oh yea, he stack too. women that is, lol).





Alright now Im finally getting a little tired of whats going on. People always argue that credentials dont mean anything in this game. My question after being to so many competitive scenerios is, how are you able to tell if someone is a really good player or is simply a shady cheater who will resort to anything to win in this game. Take for instance someone with multipule day 2's and wins such as fili luna or emon or any others. How do people determine whether or not they are cheaters or just really good. I made this thread cause I am personally sick and tired of people sitting behind their computer screen and calling other people cheaters for being consistent. And going on a more "goofier" tangent, what is the whole thing with clothing such as ghetto hoodies got to do with people being pros or cheaters cause thats all people have been talking about. Please discuss any and all thoughts about how people precieve a certian duelist a pro or cheater.