Can cheating be agreed upon?

[CloudStrife189]

Can Cheating be agreed upon; and if so, is it still cheating?


First note that a judge at my previous regional gave me a ruling which I now take into account. The judge told me "when something happened 2turns ago, we can not go back and change it because it was an "agreed upon game state" by both players. No players had any objection to the action at that time and we cannot reverse that..."



I've been attending a ton of regionals within the past few weeks. I have mastered a lot of card rulings and make misplays very rarely. However, recently I have been facing a dilemia. My opponent makes me do an action, which I know is wrong, that is granting me advantage...

Example 1:

I have a Raida on my side of the field and it had 4counters on it. He reads the card and ask me if he is correct in assuming Raida's ATK is 2300. I respond "yeah, that sounds about right"

Example 2:

I draw a card and for what ever reason the game gets paused and then resumed. My opponent then "re ends" his turn and tells me to draw a card for my turn. I respond "okay"

Example 3:

I summon breaker and add a counter and break his s/t. A few turns go by and he is hestitating on a move. He gets mad at me and says "don't forget your breaker has a counter on it still due to his effect" and I respond "oh yeah, my bad" as I place a counter on breaker.

Example 4:

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.


Note: All these are real situations which happened in the past few weeks.

So my question is, am I obligated to stop my opponent or can I take a victory due to his mistake?

Am I cheating?


Thanks for your input

[goldenjinzo30]

Nope, your opponent is just stupid.

[mrpwnage]

If the opponents are stupid enough to think those kinds of things i guess not.

[Spellcaster Smidge]

No it's not. It's just your opponent being a noob.

[scoop scoop]

that is what is known as "soft cheating." and, as can be infered by the name, it is still cheating. you are taking advantage of your opponent, and although it is not nearly as bad as stacking or drawing extra cards, you are still getting a win you should not have.

[cha0sc0ntroll]

if ur opponenets r r3tarded enof then do it lol

[Crown_Axe]

technically it is cheating because your not playing by the rules

[Titleist]

that is what is known as "soft cheating." and, as can be infered by the name, it is still cheating. you are taking advantage of your opponent, and although it is not nearly as bad as stacking or drawing extra cards, you are still getting a win you should not have.

Agreed .

[guardbear]

In the cases you described, if a judge were to look at these, he would have to assume that you and you're opponent were both unaware of the misplays. You'd still likely get penalties and since both players are obligated to inform each other of correct plays and procedure and such, you'd most likely end up with a double game loss.

If it were to come up multiple times, the penalty would probably increase...

So let's look at the facts: 1) Get a game win you shouldn't 2) Risk getting a penalty if you get caught...

If it's not cheating, it's still not the best idea.

[Judai]

It is cheating.

[CloudStrife189]

Well I understand, but I still hate the concept on helping my opponent make stronger plays to defeat me. I don't want to be like "Hey look, my Raida has 800ATK, you can easily kill it". If he thinks it has 2300ATK, who am I to change their mind?

[Judai]

The player .

[vorpalblade849]

well technically YES it is cheating...though your own concious should either say "Yes, i'd want to take advantage of him and just proceed to the X-0 tables quicker..." or you could "Maybe i'll correct him of his mistake and see who really wins."

In my own opinion, i'd say "Ok" and shake his hand =DDD

That's because it's a mistake on the OPPONENTS side, not YOURS, thus your not doing anything but agreeing to what your opponent is saying what he thinks is right.

Plus, i've never heard of giving someone ACTUALLY giving you another counter for breaker. if someone actually did so they deserve to be n00b of the week lulz

[Mr. Zero]

Most of that was cheating. Lying to your opponent in example one does not make you a cheater. Lying to your opponent and bluffing is part of the game. But when you draw extra or break two cards that's clearly against the rules.

[dan_the_man]

Obviously you're still cheating :/

[Lunar Fenris]

What you're doing is cheating's ugly adopted sibling. You're taking advantage of someone's mistake/misfortune, and turning it around to benefit you. If you embrace this as an opportunity to win, you've just opened the gate to full blown cheating, in which case you're an embarrassment to the game and have lost sight of competition altogether. Just don't do it. If your opponent isn't paying enough attention to catch these things, you may very well win anyways.

At least then it's winning the right way.

[Shadow of Death]

it's soft cheating, and more than 75% of players have done it at some point in time or another. Even if by ignorance.

[guardbear]

If a few turns after you tell you're opponent something that is false, they question it (ex. after you break a gravity bind two turns later, you break a Level limit area B, two turns later your opponent says, "wait a minute, didn't you break gravity bind?" and calls a judge, you are very likely to get a double game loss since the judge will assume it was unintentional).

If it happens more than once, the following might apply:

"P-32 Unsporting Conduct–Cheating (Penalty: Disqualification without Prize)

Cheating is the highest display of unsporting conduct a player may exhibit during a tournament. Cheating includes, but is not limited to, intentionally misrepresenting the game state, rules, and policies; reporting inaccurate information to tournament officials; and bribery. A statement must be sent to the address given at the beginning of this document outlining the incident leading to this penalty."

This is taken directly from UDE penalty guidelines.

I believe that telling your opponent your Raida has 2300 att when it has 800 or telling them that you're breaker has a counter when it no longer does would be classified as misrepresenting the game state.


"P-24 Drawing Cards–Drawing Extra Cards (Penalty: Game Loss)

A player is considered to have drawn a card once that card is combined with the rest of his or her hand. Drawing extra cards damages the game state beyond repair and as such, carries a severe penalty.

Example:
• A player draws four cards instead of three during the resolution of Graceful Charity in a Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG game.
• A player in a Vs. System tournament plays Common Enemy on turn two and immediately draws a card while Black Cat, Master Theif is in play."

Also from the penalty guidlines...

If you're opponent doesn't see you draw and you draw an extra card, and they call a judge, something like this might be applicable. It'd be hard to prove, but it's still something to think about. Granted, if your opponent doesn't catch you drawing the extra card, they probably won't ask how many cards are in your hand.

The basic answer is this... it may not be classified as cheating, but there are penalty guidlines availible to deal with situations like this, meaning that there are ways to deal with it should it come up.

[JDGloom]

If you are aware of the inaccuracies in each situation, then all four of the examples you gave were cheating. You chose to misrepresent the game state to gain an advantage. Any time you do that, you are cheating.

-Jason

[Cantor Dust]

I generally correct people if they're being nice and it's an honest mistake. If they're being a jerk about it, I don't correct them.

The most noticable example was an opponent who didn't use paper to keep track of score, he was "smart enough" to do it in his head, and thought I was too slow/stalling by keep tracking on paper. In a duel where I had paid for Premie(or delinquent, or skill Drain etc) he ended up attacking directly with a cyber dragon, and obnoxiously barked, "you're at 5900." I said "fine, I'm at 5900," made it a point to cross out the 5100 (or whatever) and marked 5900.

So in summary, I don't go out of my way to help obnoxious people.

[starting_line32]

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.

Wow, those are some special math skills. You'd think your opponent would double-check that....

When it comes to situations like the ones you provided, I would correct my opponent's mistake and continue on. Winning because you didn't follow the rules, whether your opponent realized it or not, is cheating.

Well I understand, but I still hate the concept on helping my opponent make stronger plays to defeat me. I don't want to be like "Hey look, my Raida has 800ATK, you can easily kill it". If he thinks it has 2300ATK, who am I to change their mind?

As much as you "hate the concept", rules are rules. It would stink if you didn't fess up to the actual ATK your LaDD had at a higher-level tournament and a judge that happened to be passing by heard the exchange :X

[Geodude75]

Cheaters = Losers!

[guardbear]

I generally correct people if they're being nice and it's an honest mistake. If they're being a jerk about it, I don't correct them.

The most noticable example was an opponent who didn't use paper to keep track of score, he was "smart enough" to do it in his head, and thought I was too slow/stalling by keep tracking on paper. In a duel where I had paid for Premie(or delinquent, or skill Drain etc) he ended up attacking directly with a cyber dragon, and obnoxiously barked, "you're at 5900." I said "fine, I'm at 5900," made it a point to cross out the 5100 (or whatever) and marked 5900.

So in summary, I don't go out of my way to help obnoxious people.

Assuming you hadn't taken any damage and he attacked with a cyber dragon, 8000-2100 = 5900...

[starting_line32]

In a duel where I had paid for Premie(or delinquent, or skill Drain etc)

Assuming he hadn't taken damage would be a bad assumption to make.

[VitoBlade]

Assuming you hadn't taken any damage and he attacked with a cyber dragon, 8000-2100 = 5900...

Ya, but he paid for Premature.

[Shining Blue-eyes]

Well I understand, but I still hate the concept on helping my opponent make stronger plays to defeat me. I don't want to be like "Hey look, my Raida has 800ATK, you can easily kill it". If he thinks it has 2300ATK, who am I to change their mind?

You are not helping them make stronger plays. You are informing them of the correct state of game play that should be available to them at all times.

"Who am I to change their mind?" you are a player of the game who knows the correct state of the game therefore you not only can tell them how much attack your Light and Darkness Dragon has but it is your duty to tell them. Doing anything less is lying to your opponent about information that they deserve to have, that is cheating.

[Integrate]

Ok, if your opponents did all of that, then they can't possibly win anyways, right? You're probably a good player, and these situations are mostly likely done by either ******s or newbies. You would probably win in both situations without cheating, so be a sport and tell them the correct rulings and stuff, or maybe some spectator will see you through. Why risk it?

Anyways, if they were new to this game, cheating against them would just be unfair. If you are a good player, you should be helping them make the correct plays (ex: "your smashing will kill my magician of faith, not my stratos, but i'll let you take it back") and still make a win in the end. Your opponent would think your a nice guy and you'll probably still win. Everyones happy.

[Shining Blue-eyes]

Ok, if your opponents did all of that, then they can't possibly win anyways, right? You're probably a good player, and these situations are mostly likely done by either ******s or newbies. You would probably win in both situations without cheating, so be a sport and tell them the correct rulings and stuff, or maybe some spectator will see you through. Why risk it?

Anyways, if they were new to this game, cheating against them would just be unfair. If you are a good player, you should be helping them make the correct plays (ex: "your smashing will kill my magician of faith, not my stratos, but i'll let you take it back") and still make a win in the end. Your opponent would think your a nice guy and you'll probably still win. Everyones happy.

How does it make his opponent stupid because he made a mistake in LP? I know a lot of people that play yugioh and make life point mistakes every once in a while.

[guardbear]

Ya, but he paid for Premature.

For some reason I read "paid" as "Played" as in wagering... I was wondering who played for premies... my bad...

[Integrate]

i made a general reply to all his situations. yes, everyone makes lifepoint mistakes, and yes he should notify his opponent when they make the mistake, whether it be to his advantage or disadvantage.

[Duel-God]

Yea that is cheating but if your opponent is to stupid to realize it then your in luck. But if they're a newb help them, but a noob then they just suck.

[JDGloom]

Yea that is cheating but if your opponent is to stupid to realize it then your in luck. But if you don't want to get banned help them, but a noob then they just suck.

Fix'd.

-JD

[the cheez-wizard]

did you win the duel?

[Fallen Monk Zanba]

It is a good idea to play with honor and respect. If your opponent makes a mistake in your favor and you do not realise it, that is understandable. But if your opponent makes a mistake that you understand and agree upon it, then that is wrong.

Reminds me of an incident at my last regionals. My opponent was running a Gadget deck, which can turn the tables rather quickly. On, not one, but two accounts did he miscalculate his lifepoints (in the same duel), thinking that he lost already, but on both instances I informed him he was still alive. This was in the third round, 1-to-1.

[guardbear]

It kinda reminds me a of a situation that came up in may when my team mate was playing demise at a regionals.

My friend was playing for his invite and it was a demise mirror match. He had game one and was going for game. He had a megamorphed demise, an insect knight, and a senju. He cleared field and attacked... the judge added up lifepoints. My friend sets a backrow and ends. During his opponent's turn he ring his own senju for game, but his opponent chains Royal Decree.

It's at that point my friend does the math... 4800+1900+1400 = 8100... that was game the previous turn.

The judge gave the win to my buddy, but his opponent tried to protest it. The judge basically said, "Do you agree on the lifepopints from last turn? Do you agree there was a lifepoint error? If you do, than there's nothing you can do."

Basically, I'm going to agree with everything JDG is saying.

[Geodude75]

What part of cheating do people not understand? I've been in the situation several times where I ask my opponent what the lifepoint totals are they have me 1000 or 2000 MORE than I actually do. Why is it so hard to be honest and say, no you forgot to take off for this ...

Cheaters = Losers!

[Roland]

Why didn't you tell him the truth and correct him? Were you to worried that you would lose if he realized?

hehe never mind being a cheater, the real issue is if your man enough to play honorably. But you won so I guess it doesn't matter.... right?

[L2theZ]

that is what is known as "soft cheating." and, as can be infered by the name, it is still cheating. you are taking advantage of your opponent, and although it is not nearly as bad as stacking or drawing extra cards, you are still getting a win you should not have.

Totally correct. The only thing different about soft cheating is that almost everybody does it.

[ness00]

You are expected to have a sportive conduct while playing this game (and socially, any competition). Both players have to ensure the game runs as fair and smooth as possible.

First of all, I disagree with that particular judge's position on "agreed game state". Players CAN agree about moves, but illegal moves are illegal, regardless on the players' decisions on "letting it go".

For example, if a player activates Pot of Avarice, and his/her opponent chains D.D. Crow on one of Pot's targets, Pot of Avarice shouldn't resolve. The player who activated Pot of Avarice says "what happens now?", and the player who chained D.D. Crow says "I just didn't want you to shuffle Stratos back in your deck, shuffle the other 4". In this case, even if both players agree, the one controlling Pot of Avarice should recieve a penalty for altering the order of his/her deck, or at least for not knowing how his/her own card works.

Regarding the concept of "soft cheating", keep in mind "cheating" is still on it's name. There's a huge difference between both players not realizing about a mistake, and lying to your opponent about how a card resolves. Even if "everybody does it", you could say it's normal, yet illegal. How many people drive without seatbelts? It's illegal, at least in my country, yet most drivers don't use them, even if using a seatbelt actually protects themselves.


Example 1:

I have a Raida on my side of the field and it had 4counters on it. He reads the card and ask me if he is correct in assuming Raida's ATK is 2300. I respond "yeah, that sounds about right"

You lied about how the card works. By the way, Light and Darkness Dragon doesn't get "counters". You can show it has 4 ATK losses with beads or a dice, but they aren't counters.



Example 2:

I draw a card and for what ever reason the game gets paused and then resumed. My opponent then "re ends" his turn and tells me to draw a card for my turn. I respond "okay"

If you were aware that you had already drawn a card, you should have told your opponent. Again, you lied. You shouldn't draw a card unless your opponent is completely sure his/her turn is over, either.


Example 3:

I summon breaker and add a counter and break his s/t. A few turns go by and he is hestitating on a move. He gets mad at me and says "don't forget your breaker has a counter on it still due to his effect" and I respond "oh yeah, my bad" as I place a counter on breaker.

You should have pointed out Breaker has already used it's effect, leaving it without any spell counters.


Example 4:

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.

This is the only scenario that could slightly escape being illegal. If at any point your opponent wishes to conceed by own will, it's his/her choice to do so. When you ask "is that game?", it doesn't reduce to numbers in your opponent's head, it could also mean "I don't have anything to take down 3 Zombie Masters, so in the next turn I'll lose anyway". For example, if your opponent has no cards left in his/her deck, and ends his/her turn, you could ask "is that game?" and s/he may conceed aswell, even if a mistake during your turn would cause you to lose or somehow prevent your opponent from losing.


A state where both players have agreed is something COMPLETELY beyond solution, where neither player could be penalized for their mistakes, at least to me. If a player explains how Light and Darkness Dragon works, completely and without mistakes, and his/her opponent simply "misunderstands" and doesn't bother to ask the player or a judge, and due to that misunderstanding the player loses, then, after the match, that player finds out s/he misunderstood the card, THEN there is nothing to be done about it.

If a player thinks s/he can't destroy a defense position Gellenduo with Sanctuary of the Sky face-up because s/he didn't understand "Take any damage" includes effect damage aswell, and the player had a burn card to use, nothing can be done.
Note: All these are real situations which happened in the past few weeks.

So my question is, am I obligated to stop my opponent or can I take a victory due to his mistake?

Am I cheating?


Thanks for your input[/QUOTE]

[Mengde]

In regard to "asking people their LP totals," I have only one thing to say:

Always track your own life points and your opponent's! On pencil and paper! NOT A CALCULATOR! NOT IN YOUR HEAD!

I cannot stress that enough to every duelist I play against, from new player to seasoned veteran. Never, ever trust your opponent for anything, especially life point totals, regardless of who it is. You always want to make sure you have a record of every gain and loss in case of a conflict. This will save you a lot of headaches later if you make a habit of it now.

[Requiem_Spirit]

How bout you be honest
Just 'cause your opponent screws up, don't mean both of yall have to.

[G a R 0 n]

JD Gloom hit it right on the head.

[Trench]

I don't think that it's cheating, it's just that your opponent is surrendering to you for being bad at an aspect of the game. Like if they add up the damage from your attacks wrong and scoop.

[Requiem_Spirit]

I don't think that it's cheating, it's just that your opponent is surrendering to you for being bad at an aspect of the game. Like if they add up the damage from your attacks wrong and scoop.

That still is cheating. You should tell your opponent he calculated wrong.
And he/she should be double checkin in the first place.

[Henryy]

Something that I've learned from the past couple years of intense play is that always assume that your opponent is dumber than a doornail.

[Deck-Crafter001]

Calculators work if they're TI-83 or similar... No need to kill the trees.

It's cheating.
However it's common cheating. Over half the people who play Yugimonz competitively have probably done this.

[Henryy]

The 3rd situation is the only one in which I can 100% agree with. If your opponent wants to scoop, he can whenever he wants..

[Foenix]

God damn, does everyone on pojo cheat?

[weirdanimekid]

God damn, does everyone on pojo cheat?

At some point yes, unintentionally but yes.

[Xing*]

Your opponent is not focusing, that's their loss and being a bad player is their own loss, however this does NOT give you any right to take advantage of that and break the rules. Cheating is cheating, no matter what. If you know you're breaking any rules, DON'T DO IT.

[JeffP@UDE]

If you are aware of the inaccuracies in each situation, then all four of the examples you gave were cheating. You chose to misrepresent the game state to gain an advantage. Any time you do that, you are cheating.

-Jason

Quoted for truth.

Come on now, you guys don't really want to make my job more difficult, do you? Before you decide to cheat like in your examples, please, if nothing else, think of me and how cool I am and how you really don't want to put more work on my desk.

:D

[masterofpain]

...forgive my ignorance, but who are you again?

[JeffP@UDE]

...forgive my ignorance, but who are you again?

Jeff Piroozshad
Premier Events Specialist
Upper Deck Entertainment

(copied sig ftw!)

In a quick nutshell, I'm responsible for Regionals and Shonen Jump Championships for Yu-Gi-Oh! If you have any questions or concerns with either of those two programs, or suggestions on how to make them better, let me know. I also have a Rules Knowledge level 3 certification in Yu-Gi-Oh! so I know the game intricately well. :)

[Jinjuriken]

Jeff, just an off subject question. Has UDE given any thought as to why 85% of the top 16 decks at most of the SJC contain Crush Card Virus, which to me would imply a lot of repeat players, thus no variety in players who can win? I am not complaining, just asking.

[Requiem_Spirit]

Jeff Piroozshad
Premier Events Specialist
Upper Deck Entertainment

(copied sig ftw!)

In a quick nutshell, I'm responsible for Regionals and Shonen Jump Championships for Yu-Gi-Oh! If you have any questions or concerns with either of those two programs, or suggestions on how to make them better, let me know. I also have a Rules Knowledge level 3 certification in Yu-Gi-Oh! so I know the game intricately well. :)

Will there ever be a Regional/SJC in Dallas, TX?

[Jinjuriken]

What about SJ in Tucson?? Phoenix is 3 and half hours away since I live in SE Arizona.

[Judai]

Wow, this is so on topic now.

[Xing*]

Quoted for truth.

Come on now, you guys don't really want to make my job more difficult, do you? Before you decide to cheat like in your examples, please, if nothing else, think of me and how cool I am and how you really don't want to put more work on my desk.

:D

I thought you're only in charge of tourneys, so you take care of cheaters too? Wow, I bet you get paid a lot. ($_$) Awesome job you have there. You might want to change your avatar back to the UDE one, I (and I'm sure some other people) didn't recognize you for some time. =p

[Game_Boy87]

Trying to get back on topic for a second.... I like to think that what comes around goes around. You know the wrong you are doing, so eventually that will come back on you. If you the situation was reversed, would you not want your opponent to tell you of the mistake? Always take the high road, you will come out on top in the end.

[Foenix]

I don't believe in karma.

Unless you do it yourself... with a tire iron.

[madcat_lives]

You should win by honor, if not you could play against a toy or something. The win on both are useless.

[Tricky]

Can Cheating be agreed upon; and if so, is it still cheating?


First note that a judge at my previous regional gave me a ruling which I now take into account. The judge told me "when something happened 2turns ago, we can not go back and change it because it was an "agreed upon game state" by both players. No players had any objection to the action at that time and we cannot reverse that..."



I've been attending a ton of regionals within the past few weeks. I have mastered a lot of card rulings and make misplays very rarely. However, recently I have been facing a dilemia. My opponent makes me do an action, which I know is wrong, that is granting me advantage...

Example 1:

I have a Raida on my side of the field and it had 4counters on it. He reads the card and ask me if he is correct in assuming Raida's ATK is 2300. I respond "yeah, that sounds about right"

Example 2:

I draw a card and for what ever reason the game gets paused and then resumed. My opponent then "re ends" his turn and tells me to draw a card for my turn. I respond "okay"

Example 3:

I summon breaker and add a counter and break his s/t. A few turns go by and he is hestitating on a move. He gets mad at me and says "don't forget your breaker has a counter on it still due to his effect" and I respond "oh yeah, my bad" as I place a counter on breaker.

Example 4:

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.


Note: All these are real situations which happened in the past few weeks.

So my question is, am I obligated to stop my opponent or can I take a victory due to his mistake?

Am I cheating?


Thanks for your input

Yes you are cheating.

[iwannawinregionals]

ive done things like this plenty of times back about 3 years ago when i only went to my locals but not recently becuz its a holo victory if u dont win fairly and cheating is not how i roll anymore, so yea IMO its cheating

[Neko]

Can Cheating be agreed upon; and if so, is it still cheating?


First note that a judge at my previous regional gave me a ruling which I now take into account. The judge told me "when something happened 2turns ago, we can not go back and change it because it was an "agreed upon game state" by both players. No players had any objection to the action at that time and we cannot reverse that..."



I've been attending a ton of regionals within the past few weeks. I have mastered a lot of card rulings and make misplays very rarely. However, recently I have been facing a dilemia. My opponent makes me do an action, which I know is wrong, that is granting me advantage...

Example 1:

I have a Raida on my side of the field and it had 4counters on it. He reads the card and ask me if he is correct in assuming Raida's ATK is 2300. I respond "yeah, that sounds about right"

Example 2:

I draw a card and for what ever reason the game gets paused and then resumed. My opponent then "re ends" his turn and tells me to draw a card for my turn. I respond "okay"

Example 3:

I summon breaker and add a counter and break his s/t. A few turns go by and he is hestitating on a move. He gets mad at me and says "don't forget your breaker has a counter on it still due to his effect" and I respond "oh yeah, my bad" as I place a counter on breaker.

Example 4:

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.


Note: All these are real situations which happened in the past few weeks.

So my question is, am I obligated to stop my opponent or can I take a victory due to his mistake?

Am I cheating?


Thanks for your input

Come on now bud, of course it's cheating. But, the opponent's are too stupid to coorect their OWN mistakes, that's their problem.

Yea, you should tell them, but if they're not paying enough attention to the duel to care, take your win and move on =]

[The_Dark_Monarch]

At some point yes, unintentionally but yes.
I hate cheaters & would never do it myself, but I must confess, there are two times I unintentionally did it & only coz I was a NOOB.
The first time Brain Control just came out & I thought (dunno why I thought it) but if I used Giant Trunade, I'd get to keep their monster.
I was corrected by my opponent, I apologised & that was that.
The second time was just after the "manual change" rules came out & I decided to put Giant Orcs in my deck, thinking that Giant Orc would bloody do what it said it would do!!! again, I was corrected & I apologised.
I think there are times when everybody has made a mistake at one point or another, but there's a huge difference between an "honest mistake" & cheating.
Some people don't cheat, but they just don't know all the rulings. Whilst annoying, that is understandable. The true cheaters are the ones who stack & hide cards up their sleeves etc like second rate magicians.

[Neko]

This thread isn't too old. Sorry cloud, I decided to revive it because I'm still interested in what people have to say about this topic. Especially with the way the meta's going right now...

[Mantracker]

Can Cheating be agreed upon; and if so, is it still cheating?


First note that a judge at my previous regional gave me a ruling which I now take into account. The judge told me "when something happened 2turns ago, we can not go back and change it because it was an "agreed upon game state" by both players. No players had any objection to the action at that time and we cannot reverse that..."

Example 1:

I have a Raida on my side of the field and it had 4counters on it. He reads the card and ask me if he is correct in assuming Raida's ATK is 2300. I respond "yeah, that sounds about right"

Example 2:

I draw a card and for what ever reason the game gets paused and then resumed. My opponent then "re ends" his turn and tells me to draw a card for my turn. I respond "okay"

Example 3:

I summon breaker and add a counter and break his s/t. A few turns go by and he is hestitating on a move. He gets mad at me and says "don't forget your breaker has a counter on it still due to his effect" and I respond "oh yeah, my bad" as I place a counter on breaker.

Example 4:

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.


Note: All these are real situations which happened in the past few weeks.

So my question is, am I obligated to stop my opponent or can I take a victory due to his mistake?

Am I cheating?


ex. 0 - your judge is wrong. If there is a problem with the game state, it should always be corrected if possible. If it is not possible, generally a game loss is given to the player in error.

1. cheating

2. cheating

3. cheating

4. sort of cheating, your opponent does have the right to forfeit the game at any time so its not cheating unless you tell him its game when its not

All of these are examples of soft cheating.
They are 100% illegal and if a judge is on to you, you can get DQ'd and even banned.
Nonetheless, it still happens a lot and some players are known for this tactic

[John Danker]

If a few turns after you tell you're opponent something that is false, they question it (ex. after you break a gravity bind two turns later, you break a Level limit area B, two turns later your opponent says, "wait a minute, didn't you break gravity bind?" and calls a judge, you are very likely to get a double game loss since the judge will assume it was unintentional).

If it happens more than once, the following might apply:

"P-32 Unsporting Conduct–Cheating (Penalty: Disqualification without Prize)

A couple of corrections, you've got most of it right here, however...

The only time you should ever see a judge assign a double game loss is when two unrelated events mandate it, such as when a deck check reveals both players with an illegal deck. Double game loss is a big no-no otherwise.

Good judges don't "assume" that anything is unintentional, they do some investigation first.

If it is deemed that a proceedural error such as this is unintentional and a warning is given for Proceedural Error-Minor, then later in the same game the offense is repeated again and deemed unintentional, the penalty should be upgraded in the second instance to a game loss. The only time Unsporting Conduct-Cheating should be applied is when the judges deems cheating is indeed involved, a second offense of a proceedural error if deemed unintentional should never be upgraded to Unsporting Conduct-Cheating.


If you're opponent doesn't see you draw and you draw an extra card, and they call a judge, something like this might be applicable. It'd be hard to prove, but it's still something to think about. Granted, if your opponent doesn't catch you drawing the extra card, they probably won't ask how many cards are in your hand.

Please keep in mind that a judge doesn't need to "prove" you're cheating in order to give a Unsporting Conduct-Cheating (Disqulaifciation w/o prize) penalty. Only the head judge can assign this penalty and all that judge needs to do is firmly believe the player is cheating, not prove it. This is why that responsability is granted only to the head judge who should be the highest level judge available at the tournament.

Additional Comment:

ex. 0 - your judge is wrong. If there is a problem with the game state, it should always be corrected if possible. If it is not possible, generally a game loss is given to the player in error.

While I'll agree with you on the portion about a judge should always repair any game state possible, I (along with the UDE Judge Manager) will disagree with you regarding the portion about the judge in this instance being wrong and that generally a game loss is given.

While we don't know the particulars in the scenario that was described, indeed there are many instances where an agreed upon game state is an acceptable scenario, this is assuming that the mistake was unintentional and when the mistake happened it was public knowledge and both players were responsable for resolving effect / game state that caused the problem. Please let a judge determine how to resolve such a scenario, don't assume that it is indeed an agreed upon game state and play should therefore move forward as normal.

I urge players to read the UDE Player Management forum for additional information and discussion regarding what I've outlined.

[rant5]

Well I understand, but I still hate the concept on helping my opponent make stronger plays to defeat me. I don't want to be like "Hey look, my Raida has 800ATK, you can easily kill it". If he thinks it has 2300ATK, who am I to change their mind?

you dont have to be like: hey my raida is at 800 atk, kill me

but when he asked if it is at 2300 atk you SHOULD say it is at 800 atk as you were basicaly lying about the game state.

You should be penalized with game loss or even match loss for these as this IS 100% cheating

the only time when it isnt cheating and everything is OK is if both players make a mistake but as you said you intentionaly did it, thus you are cheater



how can anyone think this isnt cheating, it obviously isnt allowed as bluffing and if I were judging at that event I´d disqualify you if I´d notice you doing it

[uncsteve53]

that's still cheating. keep up with your own plays and inform your opponent of what had happened. It's still cheating, even if your opponent is incompetent.

[John Danker]

you dont have to be like: hey my raida is at 800 atk, kill me

but when he asked if it is at 2300 atk you SHOULD say it is at 800 atk as you were basicaly lying about the game state.

You should be penalized with game loss or even match loss for these as this IS 100% cheating

the only time when it isnt cheating and everything is OK is if both players make a mistake but as you said you intentionaly did it, thus you are cheater


Indeed intentionally mistrepresenting a game state such as the example given is cheating. The UDE Penalty Guidelines don't have ascending penalties for cheating though, it's one penalty, Unsporting Conduct-Cheating (Disqualification w/o prize)

[Mantracker]

Originally Posted by DoctorNik
ex. 0 - your judge is wrong. If there is a problem with the game state, it should always be corrected if possible. If it is not possible, generally a game loss is given to the player in error.
While I'll agree with you on the portion about a judge should always repair any game state possible, I (along with the UDE Judge Manager) will disagree with you regarding the portion about the judge in this instance being wrong and that generally a game loss is given.

While we don't know the particulars in the scenario that was described, indeed there are many instances where an agreed upon game state is an acceptable scenario, this is assuming that the mistake was unintentional and when the mistake happened it was public knowledge and both players were responsable for resolving effect / game state that caused the problem. Please let a judge determine how to resolve such a scenario, don't assume that it is indeed an agreed upon game state and play should therefore move forward as normal.
Thats why I used the word "generally"
I completely agree it depends on the specific scenerio
I would say that most of the time, the game is irrepairable (because if it was repairable, players often fix it without calling judge)
Most of the time, a judge is called because the error has resulted in an unfair situation. If the error was relatively meaningless, such as someone accidently shuffling their deck when they werent supposed to, often the judge is not called.

classic example is someone drawing for dekoichi when skill drain is on the field and judge being called 2 turns later
The play error has completely changed the game state and is no longer playable. The game has to be restarted, and in this case, a game loss must be awarded

[John Danker]

classic example is someone drawing for dekoichi when skill drain is on the field and judge being called 2 turns later
The play error has completely changed the game state and is no longer playable. The game has to be restarted, and in this case, a game loss must be awarded

In this situation some investigation is in order. Asking the players how long Skill Drain was on the field, if other effects had been negated and acknowledged by both players, etc. What the judge should be doing is trying to get a feel for the awareness of Skill Drain being on the field from both players. This could be a scenario of cheating rather than Proceedural Error-Major. If the opponent of the player who drew called over the judge I'd question them about why they didn't stop the player from drawing with the knowledge that Skill Drain is on the field? Is this person fishing for a game loss for their opponent? (Be paticularly wary of the player if they're saying, "That's a game loss!") Did the person who drew have 4 pcs. of Exodia in their hand with few cards left in the deck? Where they trying to pull a fast one with a good percentage chance that another card drawn would win the game?


A judge should also find out if the card that was drawn from Dekoichi's effect (which should have been negated by Skill Drain) has been added to the hand or if there is any way of determining what that card was if added to the hand (again reflecting the fact that all game states should be fixed if possible)

If it's determined that indeed both players unintentionally forgot about Skill Drain, I see no problem with letting play continue and issuing a Proceedural Error-Minor (Warning) to both players. It was both player's responsability to know that Skill Drain negates the effect of Dekochi and stop the player from drawing. An extra card drawn doesn't necessarily equate to an unrepairable game state when both players were responsable for that game state.

Believe me, I've hashed and rehashed this topic on the UDE Player Management and Rules Knowledge RK3 forums for numerous years. I'm reflecting (to the best of my knowledge) UDE's mindset.

[r3skyline]

im not sure if anyone has said this yet...but
1) yes you are cheating
2) technically you are not because like a judge has said, as long as both parties agree its ok.
3) its really more of a morality issue than anything else.

do you personally feel that its ok to do those things?

[Mantracker]

In this situation some investigation is in order. Asking the players how long Skill Drain was on the field, if other effects had been negated and acknowledged by both players, etc. What the judge should be doing is trying to get a feel for the awareness of Skill Drain being on the field from both players. This could be a scenario of cheating rather than Proceedural Error-Major. If the opponent of the player who drew called over the judge I'd question them about why they didn't stop the player from drawing with the knowledge that Skill Drain is on the field? Is this person fishing for a game loss for their opponent? (Be paticularly wary of the player if they're saying, "That's a game loss!") Did the person who drew have 4 pcs. of Exodia in their hand with few cards left in the deck? Where they trying to pull a fast one with a good percentage chance that another card drawn would win the game?


A judge should also find out if the card that was drawn from Dekoichi's effect (which should have been negated by Skill Drain) has been added to the hand or if there is any way of determining what that card was if added to the hand (again reflecting the fact that all game states should be fixed if possible)

If it's determined that indeed both players unintentionally forgot about Skill Drain, I see no problem with letting play continue and issuing a Proceedural Error-Minor (Warning) to both players. It was both player's responsability to know that Skill Drain negates the effect of Dekochi and stop the player from drawing. An extra card drawn doesn't necessarily equate to an unrepairable game state when both players were responsable for that game state.

Believe me, I've hashed and rehashed this topic on the UDE Player Management and Rules Knowledge RK3 forums for numerous years. I'm reflecting (to the best of my knowledge) UDE's mindset.

I agree with every thing you said except that part
Drawing an extra card, in my books, is automatically a Procedural Error - Major. The only exception I would make is if both players insisted the match continue as is.

I realize that UDE Tournament Policy is very "flexible"
To a certain degree its good to give judges some freedom of interpretation
However, it needs to be standardized a bit more. Consistency is key to a well organized game. Rules and punishments are a bit too subjective, imo

[FlareWingman]

Well in reality, you are cheating, but since the opponent doesnt seem to care and since both of you decide on the situations, it would seem as it is not cheating...lol...my brain hurts.

[Philadelphia_Duelist]

IMO, drawing a card like that is not deserving of a major penalty and here's why: It's easily correctable. Just either put the card back on the top of the deck(as though he never drew it), or keep it in his hand and he cannot draw the following turn. There are some problems of course, you can make the argument that said player knows what his draw is and can make plays in advance. Or the player may be able to activate a card that he/she obviously wouldn't otherwise have activated. But even so, it's not really an irressivable game state IMO.

[Mantracker]

IMO, drawing a card like that is not deserving of a major penalty and here's why: It's easily correctable. Just either put the card back on the top of the deck(as though he never drew it), or keep it in his hand and he cannot draw the following turn. There are some problems of course, you can make the argument that said player knows what his draw is and can make plays in advance. Or the player may be able to activate a card that he/she obviously wouldn't otherwise have activated. But even so, it's not really an irressivable game state IMO.

2 wrongs do not make a right
The game state is completely altered, and irreversable

[John Danker]

im not sure if anyone has said this yet...but
1) yes you are cheating
2) technically you are not because like a judge has said, as long as both parties agree its ok.
3) its really more of a morality issue than anything else.

do you personally feel that its ok to do those things?

Is it my understanding you're relating your statement below with the scenario below it?

<Quote;>
2) technically you are not because like a judge has said, as long as both parties agree its ok.

Example 2:

I draw a card and for what ever reason the game gets paused and then resumed. My opponent then "re ends" his turn and tells me to draw a card for my turn. I respond "okay"

If you're relating these two items then I need to clarify, a judge would not (or should not) agree (nor did I agree) that it is okay to draw additonal cards with the knowledge that the drawing of additional cards is not justified by card effect. Even if both players "agree" and one of the players knows they shouldn't draw an extra card, it's intentional misrepresentation of a game state, which is cheating.

[Charsky]

All of these are examples of soft cheating.


Why do you guys insist on calling this soft cheating. Does it somehow make it easier to justify?

Call it what it is -- opportunistic cheating. You didn't go into a match planning to draw an extra card or misrepresent life points, but an opportunity arose and you cheated.

Bottom line is that it's still cheating and when judges DQ players and we ban them, we make no distinction between opportunistic and premeditated cheating.

[John Danker]

I agree with every thing you said except that part
Drawing an extra card, in my books, is automatically a Procedural Error - Major. The only exception I would make is if both players insisted the match continue as is.

I realize that UDE Tournament Policy is very "flexible"
To a certain degree its good to give judges some freedom of interpretation
However, it needs to be standardized a bit more. Consistency is key to a well organized game. Rules and punishments are a bit too subjective, imo

Weather both players insist the game / match continue or not has absolutely no bearing on the situation whatsoever. Penalties are not assigned according to the wishes of players. If a scenario is applicable to the UDE Penalty Guidelines, the associated penalty should be applied regardless of the player's wishes. While we like to let players play, we need to track penalties as well.

Drawing an extra card is not automatically a Proceedural Error-Major. Again, I encourage you to participate in and read often the UDE Player Management Forum. Such topics are discussed there often with the interjection of the UDE Judge Manager (Alex Charsky)

[Hollistar]

CHEATING IS BAD!

[Anthem91]

if these are people trying to compete let them be dumb like that, but i personally would not do that because i will have a guilty conscience afterwards and i am a man of honor. i dont want to think "i won cause that kid made a mistake".

[Ice_ghs]

technically it is cheating because your not playing by the rules

Yeah i was going to say that.

The closes thing in the past couple weeks i seen close to cheating on my part was bring back a Jinzo While Shadow Mirror Was on the field He assumed he could not activitie Mirror Force and lost the match.

[StealthoftheWest]

Example 4:

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.



Was your opponent in a coma when you somehow managed to assume control of 4 monsters on your side of the field?

[The_Shogun]

Yes it is cheating. It seems you are a liar that lacks of morals, integrity and character. To put the childs game win above your integrity is truly sad. It sems yugioh is the proving ground for the executives of enron and MCI.

[icoolikethat]

you are cheating, if your opponent is incorrect in a card ruling, or calculates incorrectly you should stop him.

I've had opponents who brain controlled my breaker and asked if it had a counter to break my mirror force, I told the truth, it did.

how would you feel if i drew twice because your friend distracted you in the middle of a duel.

or if i summon stratos, get diamond dude, you get asked something, and when you turn around you ask "do you summon anything". I'll say i already summoned stratos.


if your not gonna play honestly why waste cheating skills on YGO, there is million dollar poker asking for those skills.

Additional Comment:

Yeah i was going to say that.

The closes thing in the past couple weeks i seen close to cheating on my part was bring back a Jinzo While Shadow Mirror Was on the field He assumed he could not activitie Mirror Force and lost the match.

he was not allowed to activate mirror force, Jinzo is a continuous effect that is not negated by shadow Imprisoning Mirror.

so you accidently played it correctly.

[enjoyonionrings]

Can Cheating be agreed upon; and if so, is it still cheating?


First note that a judge at my previous regional gave me a ruling which I now take into account. The judge told me "when something happened 2turns ago, we can not go back and change it because it was an "agreed upon game state" by both players. No players had any objection to the action at that time and we cannot reverse that..."



I've been attending a ton of regionals within the past few weeks. I have mastered a lot of card rulings and make misplays very rarely. However, recently I have been facing a dilemia. My opponent makes me do an action, which I know is wrong, that is granting me advantage...

Example 1:

I have a Raida on my side of the field and it had 4counters on it. He reads the card and ask me if he is correct in assuming Raida's ATK is 2300. I respond "yeah, that sounds about right"

You are cheating by not giving the correct information. Information about a monster's attack power is public knowledge, and you are deliberately lying about it.

Example 2:

I draw a card and for what ever reason the game gets paused and then resumed. My opponent then "re ends" his turn and tells me to draw a card for my turn. I respond "okay"

Again, you are failing to maintain game proper game state and taking advantage of something that is illegal.

Example 3:

I summon breaker and add a counter and break his s/t. A few turns go by and he is hestitating on a move. He gets mad at me and says "don't forget your breaker has a counter on it still due to his effect" and I respond "oh yeah, my bad" as I place a counter on breaker.

Again, failure to maintain game state. It is your responsibility to make sure your opponent doesn't mess things up as well.

Example 4:

My opponent has 8000lp and I atk him with 3 zombie masters and a sangan and I ask him "is that game?"... He adds up the life points and adds incorrectly and gets 9300 damage and confirms its game.

This is a gray area. If he conceded, then yes you win. But, you were deliberately trying to get your opponent to make a mistake.


Note: All these are real situations which happened in the past few weeks.

So my question is, am I obligated to stop my opponent or can I take a victory due to his mistake?

Am I cheating?


Thanks for your input

Yes, you are cheating.