Zen Daaz
07-03-2004, 04:06 PM
This isn't my work, but an argument from another board that I found to be pretty good. And since RCG has been fighting for H/Hr on his own, I figured I'd pay a little homage to this ship with a small bit of points I saw elsewhere. It doesn't make either ship an inevitable thing, since we can never know for sure, but it does present some reassuring factors for H/Hr shippers. Anyway, here it is.
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It's interesting how people here try to portray their views as facts, when they're nothing more than a different opinion.
You think H/Hr are just best friends? I disagree strongly.
You're not jealous of your best friends love interest. And don't tell me Hermione supported Harry and Cho in OotP. Want evidence? Here it is, and most of these are from a very good theory I read.
"'Is it Cho?' she asked in a businesslike way. 'Did she corner you after the meeting?'"
Why does she ask that in a "businesslike" way? Hermione has never been "businesslike" with Harry, especially not when he seemed to have a problem. She's always been first in line to support him when nobody else would. So where did Hermione the "good friend" suddenly go? Also, between the DA-meeting and Harry returning to the Gryffindor common-room, there were 30 minutes. And first thing Hermione asks is whether Cho "cornered" him or not, which could lead someone to believe that she obviously thought about that possible scenario during this time. Also, the term "to corner somebody" is contemptous. Why would Hermione talk like that? She doesn't even KNOW Cho, therefore she has no reason to behave this way.
"Ron sniġġered, breaking off when Hermione caught his eye."
Seems like Hermione wants some answers from Harry and certainly doesn't want Ron to ruin it for her. And again, why is she so peeved? It just doesn't add up when you read her as a "good friend" of Harry's.
"'So- er- what did she want?' he asked in a mock casual voice.
'She-' Harry began, rather hoarsely; he cleared his throat and tried again. 'She- er-'
'Did you kiss?' asked Hermione briskly."
And again Hermione manipulates her voice. First it's "buisnesslike", now it's "briskly". JK was clearly having Hermione cover up some emotions. And it's more than obvious why IMO.
"Ron sat up so fast he sent his ink bottle flying all over the rug. Disregarding this completely, he stared avidly at Harry.
'Well?' he demanded.
Harry looked from Ron's expression of mingled curiosity and hilarity to Hermione's slight frown, and nodded."
Hermione's "slight frown"? Why frown upon your "good friend" kissing the girl he likes? Shouldn't a "good friend" be happy about that, since supposedly Hermione is the "super H/C supporter"? After all, Hermione is ALWAYS celebrating good things happening to Harry with a wide grin or something to that effect. So again, Hermione's behavior is more than weird.
"'HA!'
Ron made a triumphant gesture with his fist and went into a raucous peal of laughter that made several timid-looking second-years over beside the window jump. A reluctant grin spread over Harry's face as he watched Ron rolling around on the hearthrug.
Hermione gave Ron a look of deep disgust and returned to her letter."
Isn't it weird that it was HERMIONE who desperately needed to find out what was going on between H/C, and now she doesn't even comment on it? While RON is the one behaving like a TRUE friend, Hermione is obviously even mad at him for being happy for Harry and returns to her letter.
"'Dunno,' said Harry, who hadn't considered this, and immediately felt rather worried. 'Maybe I am.'
'Of course you're not,' said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter.
'How do you know?' said Ron very sharply.
'Because Cho spends half her time crying these days,' said Hermione vaguely. 'She does it at mealtimes, in the loos, all over the place.'"
First off, Hermione is absent? Yeah, totally. Obviously. And after she says that Harry's not a bad kisser, she doesn't even look up from her letter. Did it maybe slip out of her and she was afraid to meet Harry's eye? And to repeat Ron's question: How does she know anyway? Did she already have fantasies about kissing Harry? And also notice how she doesn't even ANSWER Ron's question? She just goes on about how Cho is crying all the time (which, btw, is AGAIN a contemptous line of Hermione's towards Cho). And she said it "vaguely". Was she unsure of what to say? Hermione sounds like someone who's just been caught and needed an excuse. Also, Hermione seems pretty informed in regard to Cho. Watching the rival, Hermione?
"'You'd think a bit of kissing would cheer her up,' said Ron, grinning.
'Ron,' said Hermione in a dignified voice, dipping the point of her quill into her inkpot, 'you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.'"
Oh, NOW you're concerned about Cho's feelings, Hermione? When it's YOU, who just dissed her seconds before? Or was it just the mention of the kiss that got you all peeved again?
"'What's that supposed to mean?' said Ron indignantly. 'What sort of person cries while someone's kissing them?'
'Yeah,' said Harry, slightly desperately, 'who does?'
Hermione looked at the pair of them with an almost pitying expression on her face.
'Don't you understand how Cho's feeling at the moment?' she asked.
'No,' said Harry and Ron together.
Hermione sighed and laid down her quill.
'Well, obviously, she's feeling very sad, because of Cedric dying. Then I expect she's feeling confused because she liked Cedric and now she likes Harry, and she can't work out who she likes best. Then she'll be feeling guilty, thinking it's an insult to Cedric's memory to be kissing Harry at all, and she'll be worrying about what everyone else might say about her if she starts going out with Harry. And she probably can't work out what her feelings towards Harry are, anyway, because he was the one who was with Cedric when Cedric died, so that's all very mixed up and painful. Oh, and she's afraid she's going to be thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she's been flying so badly.'"
Hermione SEEMS to try to help Harry understand Cho, but read this bit from Harry's POV. She raises all doubts in him he could possibly get. She portray's Cho like a complete lunatic and judging by Harry's reaction, she fully succeds. And as an afterthought she adds that she could even get thrown off the Quidditch team. Given that Harry LOVES Quidditch, it would definitely hurt him to see that he caused someone else to get thrown out. Ooooh, that was a hit, Hermione.
"'You just had to be nice to her,' said Hermione, looking up anxiously. 'You were, weren't you?'
'Well,' said Harry, an unpleasant heat creeping up his face, 'I sort of - patted her on the back a bit.'
Hermione looked as though she was restraining herself from rolling her eyes with extreme difficulty."
Since when does Hermione question whether Harry is "nice" or not? Still haven't raised enough doubts in Harry's mind, Hermione? And instead of supporting him, she even rolls her eyes at him, which surely doesn't make Harry feel any better. But yeah, Hermione is a "good friend". Very.
"'Well, I suppose it could have been worse,' she said. 'Are you going to see her again?'"
It could've been WORSE? The "good friend" Hermione would've said "Cheer up, it wasn't that bad". But no, it could've been worse. And also, um....don't you guys recognize this constant questioning from somewhere? Like...gee...I don't know...RON IN GOF? Hermione just covers it a LOT better. And this is all in a book where JK did NOT say that everyone falls for the wrong person...like she did in GoF. And where Luna obviously falls for Ron. Hee.
"‘I’ll have to, won't I?' said Harry. 'We've got DA meetings, haven't we?'
'You know what I mean,' said Hermione impatiently.
Harry said nothing. Hermione's words opened up a whole new vista of frightening possibilities. He tried to imagine going somewhere with Cho — Hogsmeade, perhaps - and being alone with her for hours at a time. Of course, she would have been expecting him to ask her out after what had just happened… the thought made his stomach clench painfully."
Hellooooo, Ron #2 anyone? LOL. Gee, Hermione. Pull yourself together. Oh, and notice the way Harry "looks forward" to meeting Cho? Well done, Hermione, you little sneak. *winks*
"'What if he doesn't want to ask her?' said Ron, who had been watching Harry with an unusually shrewd expression on his face.
'Don't be silly,' said Hermione vaguely, 'Harry's liked her for ages, haven't you, Harry?'"
Dude, at least Hermione is being her old self in one way: she has to has all the facts straight. And again she asks this "vaguely". JK sure did her job in hiding Hermione's emotions.
And this is my favorite part:
"He did not answer. Yes, he had liked Cho for ages, but whenever he had imagined a scene involving the two of them it had always featured a Cho who was enjoying herself, as opposed to a Cho who was sobbing uncontrollably into his shoulder.
'Who're you writing the novel to, anyway?' Ron asked Hermione, trying to read the bit of parchment now trailing on the floor. Hermione hitched it up out of sight.
'Viktor.'
'Krum?'
'How many other Viktors do we know?'"
R/Hr shippers always claim that Hermione wants to make Ron jealous here, which IMO isn't quite what it seems like, to put it mildly. First of all, IF she wanted to make him jealous, why didn't she just let Ron read the letter for his "rival"? If anything, Hermione just seems genuinely annoyed at Ron's jealousy. And what is she writing to Krum anyway? Perhaps something about Harry/Cho? After all, we know from Viktor himself that "Hermione talks about Harry a lot", so maybe she's pouring her heart out to him? Because who else could she talk to if not Viktor? Surely not Harry (for obvious reasons) and not Ron (since he has feelings for her), so that could be a possibility.
Anyway, so much for that scene.
Then, Hermione knows that H/C have a date on Valentines Day. Now look at this:
"He and Ron arrived at breakfast just in time for the arrival of the post owls. Hedwig was not there - not that Harry had expected her - but Hermione was tugging a letter from the beak of an unfamiliar brown owl as they sat down.
'And about time! If it hadn't come today…' she said, eagerly tearing open the envelope and pulling out a small piece of parchment. Her eyes sped from left to right as she read through the message and a grimly pleased expression spread across her face."
'If it hadn't come TODAY'? Why TODAY of all days, Hermione? Desperate to get Harry out of his date? And then she has a "grimly pleased expression" on her face. And later we realise from Rita Skeeter that Hermione didn't even TELL her why she had to come, she just told her she had to come on VALENTINES DAY. To say it with the words of Chandler Bing: could this girl BE any more obvious?
Oh, and about that jealousy subject regarding Ron: When Hermione is sitting with Skeeter, Luna and Harry in the "Three Broomsticks", Luna sings in a dreamy voice "Weasley is our king" and Hermione doesn't even notice. A jealous Hermione would have caught that immediately.
If nowhere else, in OotP Hermione's behavior towards Harry starts to shift, and JKR made sure to point that out several times. So there's no way this is a coincidence.
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Well there you have it. I think it's an interesting perspective. Don't flame me or bash me for this, this isn't meant to convert anybody. If you're already an H/Hr shipper, it will probably just cement your opinion and hopes. And if you're a R/H shipper, it'll probably do nothing other than serve to annoy you. It's just a collection of evidence in H/Hr's favor. So there you have it.
------------------------------
It's interesting how people here try to portray their views as facts, when they're nothing more than a different opinion.
You think H/Hr are just best friends? I disagree strongly.
You're not jealous of your best friends love interest. And don't tell me Hermione supported Harry and Cho in OotP. Want evidence? Here it is, and most of these are from a very good theory I read.
"'Is it Cho?' she asked in a businesslike way. 'Did she corner you after the meeting?'"
Why does she ask that in a "businesslike" way? Hermione has never been "businesslike" with Harry, especially not when he seemed to have a problem. She's always been first in line to support him when nobody else would. So where did Hermione the "good friend" suddenly go? Also, between the DA-meeting and Harry returning to the Gryffindor common-room, there were 30 minutes. And first thing Hermione asks is whether Cho "cornered" him or not, which could lead someone to believe that she obviously thought about that possible scenario during this time. Also, the term "to corner somebody" is contemptous. Why would Hermione talk like that? She doesn't even KNOW Cho, therefore she has no reason to behave this way.
"Ron sniġġered, breaking off when Hermione caught his eye."
Seems like Hermione wants some answers from Harry and certainly doesn't want Ron to ruin it for her. And again, why is she so peeved? It just doesn't add up when you read her as a "good friend" of Harry's.
"'So- er- what did she want?' he asked in a mock casual voice.
'She-' Harry began, rather hoarsely; he cleared his throat and tried again. 'She- er-'
'Did you kiss?' asked Hermione briskly."
And again Hermione manipulates her voice. First it's "buisnesslike", now it's "briskly". JK was clearly having Hermione cover up some emotions. And it's more than obvious why IMO.
"Ron sat up so fast he sent his ink bottle flying all over the rug. Disregarding this completely, he stared avidly at Harry.
'Well?' he demanded.
Harry looked from Ron's expression of mingled curiosity and hilarity to Hermione's slight frown, and nodded."
Hermione's "slight frown"? Why frown upon your "good friend" kissing the girl he likes? Shouldn't a "good friend" be happy about that, since supposedly Hermione is the "super H/C supporter"? After all, Hermione is ALWAYS celebrating good things happening to Harry with a wide grin or something to that effect. So again, Hermione's behavior is more than weird.
"'HA!'
Ron made a triumphant gesture with his fist and went into a raucous peal of laughter that made several timid-looking second-years over beside the window jump. A reluctant grin spread over Harry's face as he watched Ron rolling around on the hearthrug.
Hermione gave Ron a look of deep disgust and returned to her letter."
Isn't it weird that it was HERMIONE who desperately needed to find out what was going on between H/C, and now she doesn't even comment on it? While RON is the one behaving like a TRUE friend, Hermione is obviously even mad at him for being happy for Harry and returns to her letter.
"'Dunno,' said Harry, who hadn't considered this, and immediately felt rather worried. 'Maybe I am.'
'Of course you're not,' said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter.
'How do you know?' said Ron very sharply.
'Because Cho spends half her time crying these days,' said Hermione vaguely. 'She does it at mealtimes, in the loos, all over the place.'"
First off, Hermione is absent? Yeah, totally. Obviously. And after she says that Harry's not a bad kisser, she doesn't even look up from her letter. Did it maybe slip out of her and she was afraid to meet Harry's eye? And to repeat Ron's question: How does she know anyway? Did she already have fantasies about kissing Harry? And also notice how she doesn't even ANSWER Ron's question? She just goes on about how Cho is crying all the time (which, btw, is AGAIN a contemptous line of Hermione's towards Cho). And she said it "vaguely". Was she unsure of what to say? Hermione sounds like someone who's just been caught and needed an excuse. Also, Hermione seems pretty informed in regard to Cho. Watching the rival, Hermione?
"'You'd think a bit of kissing would cheer her up,' said Ron, grinning.
'Ron,' said Hermione in a dignified voice, dipping the point of her quill into her inkpot, 'you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.'"
Oh, NOW you're concerned about Cho's feelings, Hermione? When it's YOU, who just dissed her seconds before? Or was it just the mention of the kiss that got you all peeved again?
"'What's that supposed to mean?' said Ron indignantly. 'What sort of person cries while someone's kissing them?'
'Yeah,' said Harry, slightly desperately, 'who does?'
Hermione looked at the pair of them with an almost pitying expression on her face.
'Don't you understand how Cho's feeling at the moment?' she asked.
'No,' said Harry and Ron together.
Hermione sighed and laid down her quill.
'Well, obviously, she's feeling very sad, because of Cedric dying. Then I expect she's feeling confused because she liked Cedric and now she likes Harry, and she can't work out who she likes best. Then she'll be feeling guilty, thinking it's an insult to Cedric's memory to be kissing Harry at all, and she'll be worrying about what everyone else might say about her if she starts going out with Harry. And she probably can't work out what her feelings towards Harry are, anyway, because he was the one who was with Cedric when Cedric died, so that's all very mixed up and painful. Oh, and she's afraid she's going to be thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she's been flying so badly.'"
Hermione SEEMS to try to help Harry understand Cho, but read this bit from Harry's POV. She raises all doubts in him he could possibly get. She portray's Cho like a complete lunatic and judging by Harry's reaction, she fully succeds. And as an afterthought she adds that she could even get thrown off the Quidditch team. Given that Harry LOVES Quidditch, it would definitely hurt him to see that he caused someone else to get thrown out. Ooooh, that was a hit, Hermione.
"'You just had to be nice to her,' said Hermione, looking up anxiously. 'You were, weren't you?'
'Well,' said Harry, an unpleasant heat creeping up his face, 'I sort of - patted her on the back a bit.'
Hermione looked as though she was restraining herself from rolling her eyes with extreme difficulty."
Since when does Hermione question whether Harry is "nice" or not? Still haven't raised enough doubts in Harry's mind, Hermione? And instead of supporting him, she even rolls her eyes at him, which surely doesn't make Harry feel any better. But yeah, Hermione is a "good friend". Very.
"'Well, I suppose it could have been worse,' she said. 'Are you going to see her again?'"
It could've been WORSE? The "good friend" Hermione would've said "Cheer up, it wasn't that bad". But no, it could've been worse. And also, um....don't you guys recognize this constant questioning from somewhere? Like...gee...I don't know...RON IN GOF? Hermione just covers it a LOT better. And this is all in a book where JK did NOT say that everyone falls for the wrong person...like she did in GoF. And where Luna obviously falls for Ron. Hee.
"‘I’ll have to, won't I?' said Harry. 'We've got DA meetings, haven't we?'
'You know what I mean,' said Hermione impatiently.
Harry said nothing. Hermione's words opened up a whole new vista of frightening possibilities. He tried to imagine going somewhere with Cho — Hogsmeade, perhaps - and being alone with her for hours at a time. Of course, she would have been expecting him to ask her out after what had just happened… the thought made his stomach clench painfully."
Hellooooo, Ron #2 anyone? LOL. Gee, Hermione. Pull yourself together. Oh, and notice the way Harry "looks forward" to meeting Cho? Well done, Hermione, you little sneak. *winks*
"'What if he doesn't want to ask her?' said Ron, who had been watching Harry with an unusually shrewd expression on his face.
'Don't be silly,' said Hermione vaguely, 'Harry's liked her for ages, haven't you, Harry?'"
Dude, at least Hermione is being her old self in one way: she has to has all the facts straight. And again she asks this "vaguely". JK sure did her job in hiding Hermione's emotions.
And this is my favorite part:
"He did not answer. Yes, he had liked Cho for ages, but whenever he had imagined a scene involving the two of them it had always featured a Cho who was enjoying herself, as opposed to a Cho who was sobbing uncontrollably into his shoulder.
'Who're you writing the novel to, anyway?' Ron asked Hermione, trying to read the bit of parchment now trailing on the floor. Hermione hitched it up out of sight.
'Viktor.'
'Krum?'
'How many other Viktors do we know?'"
R/Hr shippers always claim that Hermione wants to make Ron jealous here, which IMO isn't quite what it seems like, to put it mildly. First of all, IF she wanted to make him jealous, why didn't she just let Ron read the letter for his "rival"? If anything, Hermione just seems genuinely annoyed at Ron's jealousy. And what is she writing to Krum anyway? Perhaps something about Harry/Cho? After all, we know from Viktor himself that "Hermione talks about Harry a lot", so maybe she's pouring her heart out to him? Because who else could she talk to if not Viktor? Surely not Harry (for obvious reasons) and not Ron (since he has feelings for her), so that could be a possibility.
Anyway, so much for that scene.
Then, Hermione knows that H/C have a date on Valentines Day. Now look at this:
"He and Ron arrived at breakfast just in time for the arrival of the post owls. Hedwig was not there - not that Harry had expected her - but Hermione was tugging a letter from the beak of an unfamiliar brown owl as they sat down.
'And about time! If it hadn't come today…' she said, eagerly tearing open the envelope and pulling out a small piece of parchment. Her eyes sped from left to right as she read through the message and a grimly pleased expression spread across her face."
'If it hadn't come TODAY'? Why TODAY of all days, Hermione? Desperate to get Harry out of his date? And then she has a "grimly pleased expression" on her face. And later we realise from Rita Skeeter that Hermione didn't even TELL her why she had to come, she just told her she had to come on VALENTINES DAY. To say it with the words of Chandler Bing: could this girl BE any more obvious?
Oh, and about that jealousy subject regarding Ron: When Hermione is sitting with Skeeter, Luna and Harry in the "Three Broomsticks", Luna sings in a dreamy voice "Weasley is our king" and Hermione doesn't even notice. A jealous Hermione would have caught that immediately.
If nowhere else, in OotP Hermione's behavior towards Harry starts to shift, and JKR made sure to point that out several times. So there's no way this is a coincidence.
----------------------------
Well there you have it. I think it's an interesting perspective. Don't flame me or bash me for this, this isn't meant to convert anybody. If you're already an H/Hr shipper, it will probably just cement your opinion and hopes. And if you're a R/H shipper, it'll probably do nothing other than serve to annoy you. It's just a collection of evidence in H/Hr's favor. So there you have it.