has pokemon turn into a science?

[danielmer]

With the release of diamond and pearl pokemon team building has turned into a science because if one thing is wrong with one pokemon the whole team can suffer. what are your thoughts on this subject?

[Rakath]

Well, since Gen 3 there have been more things to balance.

Gen 1 had a lot less to balance. There were Strong Special Poemon, and Weak Special Pokemon, this is why Alakazam could kill about anything.

Gen 2 Split Special into two stats, this re-arrainged the balance of power a bit more. Some Pokemon became useless, others became useful. This was a nice change of pace.

Gen 3 added Natures and Abilities. These further separated Pokemon and further made a science of team building. Even the strongest Pokemon in the game can die from the wrong Nature. And Abilities gave some nice bonuses to Pokemon that had a few problems. Like Levitate on Koffing, and Cute Charm.

Fourth Gen separated out the Attacks, this caused some moves to be useless to some Pokemon (Alakazam and the Elemental Punches), and more Abilities to tweak other Pokemon (Scizor + Technician + Aerial Ace). It does make it more work to raise a Pokemon than just 'catch it and run with it'.

[torchamp]

With the release of diamond and pearl pokemon team building has turned into a science because if one thing is wrong with one pokemon the whole team can suffer. what are your thoughts on this subject?

it's been a science since g/s/c. At least back in r/b/y days you could max out all stats just by leveling up. No worries about natures, ev's, genders, items. The only bad part was that psychic types dominated everything.

I agree that it has become a bit to much of a science, but i also think that having to work so hard to get your perfectly ev'd, nature'd, dream team, just makes it more satisfying when you win

[darkendlink]

With the release of diamond and pearl pokemon team building has turned into a science because if one thing is wrong with one pokemon the whole team can suffer. what are your thoughts on this subject?

As long as it doens't become too much of a science it's fine. IDK about you guys but sometimes I miss those days of just catching, leveling, battling then ******; now it's come to the point of paying attention to move sets, nature sets, sex, stats sets, cheap breeding stats, items. One wrong set in any of those categories would cause the pokemon to become useless. Sure it's to bring balance, but if a pokemon sucks, puting all these restriction's on it just makes it suck even more.

Too me, pokemon is advancing too much, causing most of the game to be focused on pokemon and their stats rather than actually training and battling. When it gets to the point where you have to feed your pokemon or else they faint, then you know the game begins to become rediculous...oh wait msytery dugeon....

I just wish they could release a back to the basic game for all of us old time players instead of always trying to advance to the next level and bring something new to the table. Sometimes Repition is the best marketing tool. I would always love to play another pokemon game with just 151 creatures, maybe 251..not this bull 486. A newer version of Blue or Red would be the best, new adventure, harder matches/ more gyms; I can dream can't I?

it's been a science since g/s/c. At least back in r/b/y days you could max out all stats just by leveling up. No worries about natures, ev's, genders, items. The only bad part was that psychic types dominated everything.

The only reason psychics ***** was because they shared little to no weakness and had no drawbacks in move sets. They had great speed and the only weakness was like bug...but bugs were slow, had poor damaging moves, and shared the weakness of psychic; making them vanurable to anything a Alakazam for instance would do. Mewtwo and Alakazam were the two best pokemon in the game. Too bad Dark Didn't exist in r/b/y.

[Near]

As long as it doens't become too much of a science it's fine. IDK about you guys but sometimes I miss those days of just catching, leveling, battling then ******; now it's come to the point of paying attention to move sets, nature sets, sex, stats sets, cheap breeding stats, items. One wrong set in any of those categories would cause the pokemon to become useless. Sure it's to bring balance, but if a pokemon sucks, puting all these restriction's on it just makes it suck even more.

Too me, pokemon is advancing too much, causing most of the game to be focused on pokemon and their stats rather than actually training and battling. When it gets to the point where you have to feed your pokemon or else they faint, then you know the game begins to become rediculous...oh wait msytery dugeon....

I just wish they could release a back to the basic game for all of us old time players instead of always trying to advance to the next level and bring something new to the table. Sometimes Repition is the best marketing tool. I would always love to play another pokemon game with just 151 creatures, maybe 251..not this bull 486. A newer version of Blue or Red would be the best, new adventure, harder matches/ more gyms; I can dream can't I?



The only reason psychics ***** was because they shared little to no weakness and had no drawbacks in move sets. They had great speed and the only weakness was like bug...but bugs were slow, had poor damaging moves, and shared the weakness of psychic; making them vanurable to anything a Alakazam for instance would do. Mewtwo and Alakazam were the two best pokemon in the game. Too bad Dark Didn't exist in r/b/y.

Bugs shared the weaknesses of Psychic?
We only had Leech Life. Had we had something else,
they could've gone competitive.

Who said you have to follow that?
Level up and "****"? You can do so in your game.
A LV100 Pokemon will destroy everything. Have fun.

[Rakath]

The strongest Bug move in R/G/Y was Twin Needle, which was only learned by one Pokemon and Beedrill had that Poison type making him weak to Psychics. Hence the Bug Move > Psychic Type not being helpful. G/S/C didn't help that all that much.

[Near]

The strongest Bug move in R/G/Y was Twin Needle, which was only learned by one Pokemon and Beedrill had that Poison type making him weak to Psychics. Hence the Bug Move > Psychic Type not being helpful. G/S/C didn't help that all that much.

My bad about that.

G/S/C offered us our first competitive bug,
who had a 120 power bug move.

Not to mention Dark type, Metal type, and sp.def/sp.atk split.

[Rakath]

That G/S/C bit was about bugs, even with Megahorn it was only learnable by 1 Bug Pokemon (If'n I'm remembering Right). Having some easy to learn decent bug moves is what made Diamond and Pearl look nice... instead of having to Breed a Scyther with Silver Wind...

[Mr.Missingno]

this is becoming a big "science,"as danielnmr would call it. In r/s/e there wasnt as many things to worry about. but now,r/s/e is becoming hard. It took me two hours to get a brave mudkip!

[Spitzer]

It's funny how most people consider Pokemon a kids video game. With all the balancing you have to do with each Pokemon I don't know many 10 year olds that would be able to play it succefully.

[Dawn_pokemon_master]

With the release of diamond and pearl pokemon team building has turned into a science because if one thing is wrong with one pokemon the whole team can suffer. what are your thoughts on this subject?

definetly ever since the twin type showed in g/s/c their is more to balance do to that,then in r/s/e the introduced natures which gives a new spin on things and the double battle(awesome)which is a science to make up for the weaknesses in battle.

[Brooks(M.O.B)]

some questions....cuz im kinda new

1) what do natures have to do with anything in this game...does it affect battle at all...or other pokemon somehow...???

2) do they have like tournament play for this game...and if so where can i go to find it...also are there like websites that show what pokemon people have been using...like in yu-gi-oh we have top8 decks for people who have done well in tournaments, something like that....

3) how and what do you look for to make a good team...

and last question...

4) can someone explain wifi for me?


thanks in advance...plz pm me!

[Near]

some questions....cuz im kinda new

1) what do natures have to do with anything in this game...does it affect battle at all...or other pokemon somehow...???

2) do they have like tournament play for this game...and if so where can i go to find it...also are there like websites that show what pokemon people have been using...like in yu-gi-oh we have top8 decks for people who have done well in tournaments, something like that....

3) how and what do you look for to make a good team...

and last question...

4) can someone explain wifi for me?


thanks in advance...plz pm me!
1 - Natures boost a certain stat and lower another by 10%.
2 - Probably Nintendo events.
3 - You make a team using your own brain's capabilities and then have people rate/fix it.
4 - Nothing to explain; it's simply connecting with other DS' around the world using your internet connection.
You can trade/battle people around the world using it.

[Lost Digi Girl]

It's funny how most people consider Pokemon a kids video game. With all the balancing you have to do with each Pokemon I don't know many 10 year olds that would be able to play it succefully.

(This is based on the previous games, I haven't played P/D yet) If only playing the game on your own, kids can just play with their favorite pokemon leveled up really high. My cousin, who just turned 9, is getting really into the games, and knowing him, I can't imagine him spending time to nit-pick over stats. For all my family knows(since my brother and mom play also-we all have a copy reserved), things may change too much.

I'm already disappointed that everyone seems to spaz about move sets and EV/IV stuff, making it so people that just raise pokemon just as normal pokemon can't even consider competing. But if there's a point where you have do worry about all that just to beat the Elite 4, then the game's gone too far. Yes, it may appeal to older audiences who'd enjoy this statistical game, but at the same time, the younger audiences will give up. However, outsiders would still think that pokemon, digimon, etc is just children's games and cartoons, with no real way to show otherwise.

[shineyaltaria]

With the release of diamond and pearl pokemon team building has turned into a science because if one thing is wrong with one pokemon the whole team can suffer. what are your thoughts on this subject?

For team building, and the game in general, each gen has been more expansive and complicated than the previous one. IMO, the answer to your question is subjective in that a person playing can just be satisfied by going through with a minimum of team building to beat the E4, or they may be very serious about the game and need to understand the subtleties and many different aspects involved with building a competitive team. Both players may enjoy the game very much and feel they got their money worth. In a way, we get out of it what we put in.

In any case, the actual 'science' is in the game theory, analysis, concept development, programming, testing, implementation, etc., before we ever see it advertised.

[Chaostamer]

It's funny how most people consider Pokemon a kids video game. With all the balancing you have to do with each Pokemon I don't know many 10 year olds that would be able to play it succefully.

They could play it, but Pokémon is definitely a complex strategy game. Still, it's easy enough to play Ingame, where Mixed Sweepers actually work.

[danielmer]

it has been a few month after this thread was posted and has your views change from before?

[-Airknight-]

Well since it's your thread, guess we can't get angry over you for bumping such an old thread. But it is a nice topic that I never got to comment on before.

And to answer it. Yes, pokemon has become more strategic. I wouldn't call it a science, as I don't think any game could be considered something like that. A science is like.. chess. This is just a game. But in order to have fun in it, most people like to win. In order to win, peopel need to train effectively. And that is where the so called "science" comes into play. This game now takes more effort in a single Pokemon than I've ever put into a whole game alone. Just the past two nights I've bred over 30 Modest Topepi's [god knows how many Eggs overall], just so I could get decent IV's in her stats so she could do well against other people.

This game is pretty lame in the fact that half the people put no effort into their Pokemon, though. PokeSav has sucked nearly all the fun out of it. It's fine if they make reasonable Pokemon, but honestly, breeding a good Pokemon makes me feel much better. Using something hacked would be like.. what the hell? Did I honestly just cheat at Pokemon?

[Xing*]

You should tell this to Smogon. =/ That place has literally became a Pokemon science reseach lab fulll with amazing mathematicians.

[danielmer]

----lol----

[Xing*]

----lol----

At which post? =p

[shineyaltaria]

I don't mind this topic having further serious discussion for related ideas since it was last posted to, but let's keep the spam down.

[Jiggy-Ninja]

Pokemon is one of the things that make me lmao at the people that say video games are making kids stupider and reducing the work ethic.

Every game in exestance has two kinds of players, the casual players and the competitive ones. While playing a game casually might not bring any benefit other than fun, playing competively damn well does.

The comment was made above "I'm already disappointed that everyone seems to spaz about move sets and EV/IV stuff, making it so people that just raise pokemon just as normal pokemon can't even consider competing.". This is one of the examples of what I like about competitve play, that it takes effort and knowledge to do successfully. While it might take a lot of time and effort to perfect your prediction and your team, it is infinitely more satisfying accomplishing something difficult than something easy. You get a feeling of accomplishment that all your hard work paid off, rather than just "Meh, whatever".

Take Super Smash Brothers Melee for instance. I know I'm not a particularly good player, and neither is my brother. I get tired of facing the LV9 CPU over and over. I always want to face my brother. Facing him is more of a challenge, and if I beat him it feels much better than just 5-0ing the dumb Bowser for the 87th time.

Back to the work ethic thing, it was brought up that a true competitive Pokemon player needs to focus on EVs, IVs, Natures, and in some cases Ability. Unless you use Pokesav or a Gameshark or whatever, getting the right IVs and Natures and whatnot takes time, normally through repeated breeding or, in the case of Legendaries, soft-resetting. Breeding, soft-resetting, and EV Training are very tedious and repetitive processes, none of which are very fun. Yet many competitive people do that anyway, and why? Why do something that's not fun? It's because the players want the benifit of having that awesome Pokemon for their team, and they are willing to do something for it, even if that particular something isn't very fun. If that isn't a work ethic, I don't know what is.

The battling itself has evolved since the beginning. With the Special Split in Metal, Abilities and Natures in Advance, the most recent Phys/Spec split, all the new Items that DP brought for competitive play (rather than just Lefties on all) and I believe that the EV/IV system was redone in Advance, there are a lot of things that must be considered. Does that Weavile have Choice Band or Focus Sash? That Garchomp just used Swords Dance, is it Physical or Chain Chomp? Is that a Scarfcross or CBCross? DDTar, CBTar, or Boah? All this information must be processed quickly (else you piss off your opponent with your stalling) and descisions must be made about how to proceed.

And not only do you have to consider everything for the given situation at hand, you also have to remember that there is another person on the other end thinking about everything you are. They might be thinking you'll do something, and do something to counter it. On the flip side, you might be expecting a counter, but do something to counter the counter. It's akin to Blissey vs Infernape. CC could easily KO Blissey, but A has to remember that B has thoughts of his own. A might expect B to switch, so instead of using a Physical attack uses a Special Attack like Flamethrower. B, expecting this counter, keeps Blissey in to absorb the Flamethrower. It stops becoming a Rock-Paper-Scissors battle of this Pokemon beating this Pokemon and becomes a battle of who can surprise whom first and better. If I ever meet a stupid kid that could pull of mental feats like this, I will eat my words.

There's also benefits outside of the actual game itself. Pokemon, breeding specifically, inspired me to use the knowledge I had gathered from teaching myself programming to actually create something worthwhile and usable rather than random useless stuff to explore capabilities. And while Pokemon battling isn't a skill you might put on a resume or an application, creating a small program in high school is.

At the risk of this being considered an advertisment, you should all read the book "Everything Bad is Good for You". I forgot who it's written by, but it basically goes in-depth about how popular culture, rather than dumbing kids down according to standard convention, is actually increasing the mental capabilities of kids. And it supports this view very well. Rather than citing simple studies about standardized test scores or other stupid things (and I could go off on a whole different tangent about how stupid I think standardized tests are), it goes very indepth into the actual content and looks at facts and statistics rather than just perceptions (The best selling video games all about sex and violence? "The Sims" begs to differ). It is an excellent read and I highly recommend it.

Okay, while I didn't stay strictly on the given topic, I'm close enough. Wall-o-Text FTW.

[OmegaMan1144]

I like to play competetively as well, but sometimes I sit back and think "were we even supposed to know that IVs and EVs exist? The game developers dont show the stats of these out in the open, and I think that's for a reason. These were *supposed* to be slight additions to stats gained over time by fighting many DIFFERENT pokemon. So after alot of battles, your Lv 100 pokemon would have slightly higher stats in all areas, and would give it an edge over someone else's Lv 100 pokemon that was given a ton of rare candies just to get it high level.
I've got a Staraptor that I caught when I started the game. I got lucky with Adamant nature, and I have no idea whatsover what its IVs or EVs are, but it's been faring very well over wifi battles.

So to answer my own question: No, I dont think we were supposed to know that they exist, and I'd like to see them taken out of game for the next gen of pokemon...at least the IV thing anyway.
Oh yeah, I'd also like to see Hidden Power become completely random, not based on IV's.

[danielmer]

----bump----

[Duke_of_Duel]

Yeah, it is a science. It's all math, it's an art. It's turning into something bigger than we ever thought it could be. It's like a pro sport now.

And I am glad about this. =)

[WildAce]

Yeah, it is a science. It's all math, it's an art. It's turning into something bigger than we ever thought it could be. It's like a pro sport now.

And I am glad about this. =)

Yes, I can see it now.
The 2012 Olympics will feature Competitve Pokemon battling.

[Xing*]

Yes, I can see it now.
The 2012 Olympics will feature Competitve Pokemon battling.

Actually that would be cool.