Dead or Alive (spoilers for book five)

[Michuru81]

Chapter 52, Choices, of Robert Jordan's "The Fires of Heaven", the fifth book in his Wheel of Time series, reads as follows: "Suppressing a small bubble of hope- she could not allow herself that luxery- Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Sources and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything."

Moiraine is, in the Wheel of Time books, something of a guide and guardian to Rand- the main character of the books. A young orphan who thinks he is completely normal, until he finds himself able to use the One Power. Lanfear is one of the Forsaken; Aes Sedai who went over to the dark side and joined the Dark One- who's name is not spoken by those who walk in the light.

So, in the fifth book, a young man who has just recently found his other worldly power watches as his guide and protector is fighting a servant of the all powerful dark lord and is flung through a mysterious archway no one understands. There is no body, just friends convincing each other that this means death. Basically, she dies in circumstances that parallel the death Sirius Black. Kind of funny, isn't it? Fifth book of the series and everything.

Here's the fun part: There are hordes of clues in the recent Wheel of Time books that suggest Moiraine is not dead but is merely waiting in a pocket dimension that archway leads to... waiting for a rescue. If their apparent ends parallel each other, is it safe to assume that Sirius Black isn't dead either?

What do you think?

[WildWill]

I think you're reaching for something that isn't there.

[Rafael Z]

Sirius Black is not death, he is trapped in the Veil.

[NevrMore]

man, that makes no sense. The veil can obviously be enchanted, but shouldn't there be SOME sign on it of what happened to those unfortunate enough to fly into it? A decoration of those who fell in, a name, something. Is it really a good idea to just hang a magic veil that can abduct anyone and everyone from this dimension in a room of the ministry of magic that any rookie can accidentally stroll into?

Seems fishy.

[Betelgeux]

They called it the Death Room, so it might be safe to assume Sirius is dead.

I don't completely doubt you, I just need more evidence that he's still alive.

[Village Dag]

He IS dead. I know it.

[RCG_]

He's dead. JK said so. If he came back, it would be back from the dead.

[RobbieBond008]

The thing about the suspiciousness of the veil is if JK was just gonna kill him off she could have used Avada Kevadra. There's something mysterious about that veil, and I just can't WAIT to find out.

[trinity5_14]

The thing about the suspiciousness of the veil is if JK was just gonna kill him off she could have used Avada Kevadra. There's something mysterious about that veil, and I just can't WAIT to find out.

I agree. I honestly don't know if he's dead, but I'm really hoping he's not. I was soooo mad when that happened. Sirius is arguably my fave character, he can't just die! But like I said, it's more hope than any real guess. I just want to find out for sure.

[chaoslord]

The thing about the suspiciousness of the veil is if JK was just gonna kill him off she could have used Avada Kevadra. There's something mysterious about that veil, and I just can't WAIT to find out.

i may have misremembered/misread this part of the book, but doesnt it say a jet of green light hit sirus?

[pedrobobo]

i may have misremembered/misread this part of the book, but doesnt it say a jet of green light hit sirus?

We actually don't know what color the jet of light was... just the one right before it... here is the quote...

" Only a couple were still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.
The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest.
The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock."

[Betelgeux]

I think part of the mystery is just that. Did the light kill Sirius, or did the veil? She never specified, and in this case it's very important information.

[chaoslord]

I think part of the mystery is just that. Did the light kill Sirius, or did the veil? She never specified, and in this case it's very important information.
i never understood what the veil was for.........im just dense.......
what purpose did the veil serve?

[Betelgeux]

It's supposedly the dividing "curtain" between life and death. The people in the Department of Mysteries were studying it.

[Village Dag]

It was probably green. JK would never sugar coat anything.

[pedrobobo]

It was probably green. JK would never sugar coat anything.

I may be going out on a limb here.. but Harry's eyes are green... Could that explain all of the references to his eyes (he looks just like his dad except he has his mother's eyes - green)

[Padfoot]

Well, sirius fell into the veil alive, so i believe he is still trapped inside -- alive!

[Shining Celebi]

So all the characters in the book and the author just decided to lie about it?

[NevrMore]

So all the characters in the book and the author just decided to lie about it?

The characters couldn't know for sure that he's deceased. They didn't know what the veil did, and believed that the spell killed him before he even hit the ground. They thought that he was dead and just on the other side of the veil. So he may be alive, unless one of the members of the OotP has extensive knowledge of the Department of Mysteries and can prove that he's gone for good.

And authors can lie alot, because it makes the climax all that much more interesting.

[pedrobobo]

The characters couldn't know for sure that he's deceased. They didn't know what the veil did, and believed that the spell killed him before he even hit the ground. They thought that he was dead and just on the other side of the veil. So he may be alive, unless one of the members of the OotP has extensive knowledge of the Department of Mysteries and can prove that he's gone for good.

And authors can lie alot, because it makes the climax all that much more interesting.

Could it be possible for a member of the OotP to be working, or have worked for in the past, the Department of Mysteries before? I thinkit is highly possible that this is the case (could of even been Lily Potter). If this is true than the OotP would have a lot of knowledge about what the veil is.

It is also possible that the veil, not the spell, caused his death. The members of the Order would have known that he was dead, while Harry (our eyes and ears for the books) would continue to wonder. Therefore it is possible for some of the characters to know if he really is dead or not.

Also you mentioned that "authors can lie a lot" ... but I feel that the good ones (Like J.K.) don't have to lie (about the plot) to make things interresting. Furthermore, when authors do lie (about the plot) in an attempt to make things interresting... it ruins the book for many readers such as myself. Many good writters will actually leave a trail of clues about what is going to happen later in the book, but have enough skill to make us forget them or to simply overlook them (the first time we read the book).

[trinity5_14]

i may have misremembered/misread this part of the book, but doesnt it say a jet of green light hit sirus?


I too may be mistaken, but I don't believe it actually said which "killed" (if he's dead at all) Sirius - the light or the veil. I was under the impression that the spell just stunned him and knocked him back into the veil. But that's just my interpretation.

[prongs2003]

Sirius was not stunned as when a person is stunned they cannot change their facial expressions as Sirius did - from laughter to shock

[WoodenCoyote]

Maybe there was a point to having a character fall through an arch and disappear.

Sirius is gone. Not dead, not alive, just gone. Without a body, we never know what killed him, in fact, we can't be sure if he's even dead at all. There'll always be that question, that doubt - both for us and for the characters in the book.

The chance to see Sirius again is Hope, something to strive for. If Harry believes in his heart that his godfather is coming back someday, doesn't that give him a reason to fight?

[RCG_]

JK confirmed in the recent Q&A that he is, in fact, dead. That's just the way it is. Whether JK possibly brings him back I'm not going to address, nor am I going to put my hope in it. All we know is that Sirius plays some sort of role in the next two books, because she says there's some sort of part of Sirius' story that hasn't been addressed yet.

[phoenix_phan]

The thing about the suspiciousness of the veil is if JK was just gonna kill him off she could have used Avada Kevadra. There's something mysterious about that veil, and I just can't WAIT to find out.
the book said another beam of lite hit him not that it was the same spell

[Charninja]

Istill fail to understand why everyone is so upset about Sirius. I never really cared for the guy, he really was someone I could have lived without. Now if it was hagrid, or Ron, or Snape, or somebody like that, absolutely, I'd be pissed. But Sirius has done very little in the scope of the book, and just.... "lacks a connection" that the aforementioned characters do to the story in my oppinion.

[RobbieBond008]

New theory: Perhaps Sirius was killed by the jet of light, and the veil is (what we beleive) Heaven, or the afterlife. So he was killed, then went behind the veil because of it.

New theory #2: Harry's eyecolor came up, about his green eyes and the Avada Kedavra curse being green. You are right, it is mentioned MANY times through the book about his green eyes being "Lily's." Soooooo... perhaps that's how the "blood protection" from his mother lives on... in his eyes.

Old theory (and what I still beleive): The spell hit him, and it pushed him through the veil. Now... I think that the spell was a stunner, because the first was a "beam of red light," or a stunning spell. Then J.K. repeated, "Another beam of light." If she didn't describe it, but she did say another, I would think it would be like the first one. Second of all, why did he specifically go through the veil, it looks like he flied in mid-air SPECIFICALLY toward it.

[Mystic Reaper]

New theory-it wasnt sirus who was killed but someone who was taking the polyjuice potion and was working for either the minstry or of voldermort

[WoodenCoyote]

Well that would certainly be a twist :eek:
Where did you hear that?

[RobbieBond008]

That would be some twist, knowing J.K. who the heck knows? Sounds up her alley though, I do admit...

[Mystic Reaper]

I made up my theory but it could be true

[hplotr23]

don't you think though that if it was someone taking the polyjuice potion the real sirius would have heard about it and made it known to dumbledore and the order that he was still alive?

[WoodenCoyote]

Unless he was being held captive, as Moody was.

[hplotr23]

Unless he was being held captive, as Moody was.



true. didn't think of that either.

[Firestorm27]

that doesn't seem likely. Would be too repetitious for Rowling