Mirror Force Return Debate

[DMOC2826]

I don't know something tells me that Mirror Force has a good chance at returning in the next ban list. Widespread Ruin and Sakuretsu Armor are good substitutes but they are 1 for 1s only and cannot bail you out of a tough jam when you have 3 of your opponent's monsters attacking you like MF can. Besides, there are a lot of counters to Mirror Force that don't make it that ban-worthy:
Jinzo
Pitch Black War Wolf
Mirage Dragon
Elemental Hero Wildheart
Zero Gravity
Windstorm of Etiquita
Book of Moon
My Body as a Shield
^Anyways what are your thoughts on the card and what do you think its chances are for returning, and state your reasons please, TY ^_^

[Tsumaru]

There are numerous substitutes for Mirror Force. It's staying banned, get over it.

[Lord of the Bling]

Mirror Force should come back. I don't own it, but I'd still like it back.

[mech-hound]

The constant switch wth Dark Hole will probally continue.

[Paladinseer007]

Mirror Force should come back. I don't own it, but I'd still like it back.

I agree with that, The game wouldn't be the same without mirror force.

[B.A. Baracus]

Balances swarm on the def of end.

[WildfireR9]

Balances swarm on the def of end.

Hammer on the nail. I vote to bring it back.

[Paladinseer007]

Hammer on the nail. I vote to bring it back.

I say bringing mirror force back, I say I agree and here here to that. :D

[PC1X1]

I prefer to keep it banned ;), unless they change dark hole etc back to ban list, although I prefer dark hole strat wise ;).

[Master_Kakashi]

That's why Traditional exists. There's too many nonsensical people that want the state of the game back to where it was NEARLY KILLED.

Just shove it and play traditional. -.-

[Paladinseer007]

That's why Traditional exists. There's too many nonsensical people that want the state of the game back to where it was NEARLY KILLED.

Just shove it and play traditional. -.-

So your saying it coming off the list is outside of the realm of possibility. :D

[lucamon]

Mirror Force doesn't need to come back, We've got Dark Hole which is just as good or generally better.

We have 3 Sakuretsu and 3 Widespread.

Mirror Force is too broken to have around, and it punishes strategies more than Sak/WSR do.


Get along without it, you've got 6 smaller ones to play with for now.

[WildfireR9]

Mirror Force doesn't need to come back, We've got Dark Hole which is just as good or generally better.

We have 3 Sakuretsu and 3 Widespread.

Mirror Force is too broken to have around, and it punishes strategies more than Sak/WSR do.


I don't think MForce is anything like DHole. Sakuretsu and Widspread IMO do not have the same impact that MForce does. MForce is nothing like DHole because it's strictly a defensive kickback card. It punishes your opponent who is swarming and overexerting their offense, and best of all, doesn't kill ALL monsters on their field, just the aggressive ones. It's the same reason why nobody sets all of their M/T's down at once knowing their is a HStorm out there. With MForce gone, players are FAR more inclined to attack relentlesly.

[Master_Kakashi]

I don't think MForce is anything like DHole. Sakuretsu and Widspread IMO do not have the same impact that MForce does. MForce is nothing like DHole because it's strictly a defensive kickback card. It punishes your opponent who is swarming and overexerting their offense, and best of all, doesn't kill ALL monsters on their field, just the aggressive ones. It's the same reason why nobody sets all of their M/T's down at once knowing their is a HStorm out there. With MForce gone, players are FAR more inclined to attack relentlesly.
RAigeki punishes the opponent for swarming... OMG LETS BRING IT BACK!! :eek:

[ZorcTheAncientClown]

We don't need free mass-removal, in my very humble and lowly opinion. If mass-removal is necessary, a cost involved wouldn't be bad. Vortex is fairly balanced, so why not release a watered down Mirror Force? The fact that Mirror Force has no cost is just, you know. I have problems with unfair, free cards.

[lucamon]

With MForce gone, players are FAR more inclined to attack relentlesly.

So like.. After you use it in a game, you think that won't happen?

What if you don't draw it?


Are you saying that not only do you want it back, but also unlimited?



Doesn't matter, you're wrong. ;x

[DMOC2826]

There are numerous substitutes for Mirror Force. It's staying banned, get over it.
^And who are you to make that statement?
Among the current bannned cards, Mirror Force has one of the best shots at coming back IMO, and by common sense, they would never allow Dark Hole and MF unrestricted at the same time. I think Dark Hole should return to ban land, and MF replaces it for next time.

[topspin1617]

^And who are you to make that statement?
Among the current bannned cards, Mirror Force has one of the best shots at coming back IMO, and by common sense, they would never allow Dark Hole and MF unrestricted at the same time. I think Dark Hole should return to ban land, and MF replaces it for next time.

I don't see why Dark Hole and Mirror Force can't both be unbanned.

I think we should get back Mirror Force, and restrict Widespread and Sakuretsu to 1.

[DMOC2826]

I don't see why Dark Hole and Mirror Force can't both be unbanned.
I think we should get back Mirror Force, and restrict Widespread and Sakuretsu to 1.
The problem with MF and DH being unbanned simultaneously will the frequent amount of monster field clearing at no cost. I mean look at the this ban list and the previous one. April 1, 2004, MF was in but DH was out, and now since October 1, 2004, DH is in but MF is out, and MF has been in out of ban land.

[lucamon]

I think we should get back Mirror Force, and restrict Widespread and Sakuretsu to 1.

Justify your reason for saying that.

[topspin1617]

The problem with MF and DH being unbanned simultaneously will the frequent amount of monster field clearing at no cost. I mean look at the this ban list and the previous one. April 1, 2004, MF was in but DH was out, and now since October 1, 2004, DH is in but MF is out, and MF has been in out of ban land.

That happens now. We should:
unban MF
restrict Saku & Widespread
restrict Smashing



Justify your reason for saying that.

So your opponent can't endlessly stop your attacks with 3 x each of those.

[Master_Kakashi]

That happens now. We should:
unban MF
restrict Saku & Widespread
restrict Smashing

So your opponent can't endlessly stop your attacks with 3 x each of those.
How about we not look for a reason for overpowered cards to come back and actually do something about it to end this ****ty cycle? =\

[topspin1617]

How about we not look for a reason for overpowered cards to come back and actually do something about it to end this ****ty cycle? =\

There's nothing wrong with overpowered cards. One use and they're gone, and good players will not let themselves lose advantage against those.

3 x Smashing/Sakuretsu/Widespread is more of a problem. They don't require monsters to be on the field at the same time, so they will pick them off 1 by 1 as they come into play.

[Paladinseer007]

There's nothing wrong with overpowered cards. One use and they're gone, and good players will not let themselves lose advantage against those.

3 x Smashing/Sakuretsu/Widespread is more of a problem. They don't require monsters to be on the field at the same time, so they will pick them off 1 by 1 as they come into play.

I do agree that mirror force should come off the list, like I said before since that card was created there have been more ways to either destroy or discard that card from your opponent's hand to their graveyards.In otherwords, IT'S NOT THAT BIG AND BAD!!! and it should come back off the list. :p

[lucamon]

So your opponent can't endlessly stop your attacks with 3 x each of those.

Waboku and Thunder of ruler need to be restricted aswell if that's the case.

Try again.

[topspin1617]

Waboku and Thunder of ruler need to be restricted aswell if that's the case.

Try again.

Um, but those don't destroy monsters.

Try again.

[lucamon]

Um, but those don't destroy monsters.

Try again.


So your opponent can't endlessly stop your attacks with 3 x each of those.

You said that one above, I don't remember seeing anything about destroying monsters.. Therefore I didn't use it in my rebuttle.

Are you for, or against Mirror Force coming back?

[topspin1617]

You said that one above, I don't remember seeing anything about destroying monsters.. Therefore I didn't use it in my rebuttle.

Are you for, or against Mirror Force coming back?

You know what I meant.

It's annoying when your monster is destroyed every time it tries to attack, and any ones left over from a previous turn are hit with Smashing Ground.

I'm for Mirror Force coming back.

[99TourGuides]

when you have 3 of your opponent's monsters attacking you
You suck if you let that happen to you.

[lucamon]

You know what I meant.

It's annoying when your monster is destroyed every time it tries to attack, and any ones left over from a previous turn are hit with Smashing Ground.

I'm for Mirror Force coming back.

Yes, because I can read minds.

Also, if you're for Mirror Force coming back, doesn't that leave 1 Saku, 1 WSR, and 1 MF with your suggestions?

That's exactly the same as running 3 Saku (which everyone is currently doing).

Rebuttle?

[topspin1617]

Yes, because I can read minds.

Also, if you're for Mirror Force coming back, doesn't that leave 1 Saku, 1 WSR, and 1 MF with your suggestions?

That's exactly the same as running 3 Saku (which everyone is currently doing).

Rebuttle?

It's not the same as 3 Saku. Would you automatically waste your 1 Mirror Force to stop 1 monster's attack?

Right now, everyone is running 3 Saku + 1 or 2, possibly 3 Widespread. That is too much IMO.

EDIT: If you really want to know what I think, find the ban list I made at the bottom of this page.

[Dark Paliden]

Force should come back with all the swarming with Cybers+Reapers, and such we need more destruction. So you could just re-ban Hole and bring back Force.

[topspin1617]

Force should come back with all the swarming with Cybers+Reapers, and such we need more destruction. So you could just re-ban Hole and bring back Force.

But see, I don't think Hole needs to be banned either. It would be fine to have both.

[lucamon]

It's not the same as 3 Saku. Would you automatically waste your 1 Mirror Force to stop 1 monster's attack?

Right now, everyone is running 3 Saku + 1 or 2, possibly 3 Widespread. That is too much IMO.

EDIT: If you really want to know what I think, find the ban list I made at the bottom of this page.

Mirror Force is generally only going to hit 1 monster anyway.

If it were unbanned, playstyles would change and not many people would be swinging simultaniously unless they needed to (In which case, Mirror Force is unnecessary).

[topspin1617]

Mirror Force is generally only going to hit 1 monster anyway.

If it were unbanned, playstyles would change and not many people would be swinging simultaniously unless they needed to (In which case, Mirror Force is unnecessary).

Against good players it will only hit 1.

Mediocre players will swarm the field with multiple monsters before Mirror Force is used, allowing you to gain advantage with its activation.

With cards like this, advantage goes to skilled players. We need cards that good players can exploit to open up an advantage. Saku/Widespread will hit one monster every time. It has no more potential than that, so it doesn't take skill to time it right.

[Shadowrulz3164]

i think it could be unbanned, and when it comes to restriction of sak armor and widespread, i say if anything semi restrict them. if you are really having trouble iwth them just use royal decree

[ixidor89]

Mirror Force could come back, but Dark hole will almost certainly be banned again and some of the 1 for one cards are getting restricted...

[DMOC2826]

You suck if you let that happen to you.
Dude just shut up okay. There are plenty of ways your opponent can get 3 or more monsters on you and you have no control over. So just b/c an opponent of mine unleashes 3 monsters on me doesn't mean I suck so that post of yours was stupid and pointless.
Ever heard of:
Cyber Dragon
Chaos Sorceror
Marauding Captain
Cyber Jar
Snatch Steal
Brain Control
Hydrogeddon
^Those cards listed above can easily get a player to unleash multiple monsters in 1 turn, and FYI it seldom ever happens to me, but it does sometimes; not every duel is going to go your way. :-/

On topic: I think Mirror Force is more fair and less broken than Dark Hole. When you set a MF fd it can easily get dusted or MST'd and it is not really chainable like Waboku, and Mirror Force is only useful when your opponent declares an attack, so aganst exodia and burners it is basically a useless and unreliable card, where as Dark Hole IMO is useful and relaible in just about any deck(if not all decks)
Counters for Dark Hole:
Horus Lv.8
Horus Lv.6
My Body as a Shield
Magic Drain
Magic Jammer
Spell Shield
^Those are the few counters I can think of at the moment.

[Paladinseer007]

Dude just shut up okay. There are plenty of ways your opponent can get 3 or more monsters on you and you have no control over. So just b/c an opponent of mine unleashes 3 monsters on me doesn't mean I suck so that post of yours was stupid and pointless.
Ever heard of:
Cyber Dragon
Chaos Sorceror
Marauding Captain
Cyber Jar
Snatch Steal
Brain Control
Hydrogeddon
^Those cards listed above can easily get a player to unleash multiple monsters in 1 turn, and FYI it seldom ever happens to me, but it does sometimes; not every duel is going to go your way. :-/

On topic: I think Mirror Force is more fair and less broken than Dark Hole. When you set a MF fd it can easily get dusted or MST'd and it is not really chainable like Waboku, and Mirror Force is only useful when your opponent declares an attack, so aganst exodia and burners it is basically a useless and unreliable card, where as Dark Hole IMO is useful and relaible in just about any deck(if not all decks)
Counters for Dark Hole:
Horus Lv.8
Horus Lv.6
My Body as a Shield
Magic Drain
Magic Jammer
Spell Shield
^Those are the few counters I can think of at the moment.

Thank you, for getting the point of even if some cards are powerful that doesn't mean they don't have any weaknesses.

[DMOC2826]

Thank you, for getting the point of even if some cards are powerful that doesn't mean they don't have any weaknesses.
LoL you're welcome, but I was really meaning to defend the fact that MF is less broken and more fair of a card than DH, and I was comparing their strengths and weaknesses basically to show their difference in effectiveness and power.

[localghost]

It's banned. Stop whining and put in some Saku's.

[Ghost hunter]

I think Mirror Force is deadlier in this format.If they unban it I`ll have to think twice before attacking with reaper,swarming and stuff.Dark Hole must stay as a counter to mass summoning,and it doesn`t bring unbalance,cause it`s at best 3 for 1 and it`s just one copy in your deck.There must be at least one super destroyer and if you ask me that should be dark hole.

[Chronos]

Do you not think why MF was banned and DH was unbanned? A change in format, a change in playstyles, in this format swarm is much more of a reality and a possibility, its designed to make players strategise and to think of ways of countering the swarm, making the players evolve. Its all about strategy.

I know also that all the Saks and WS and SG's are running around but they also take a strategy to use, I for one have used them strategically and Im positive in my belief that other good players do so as well so stop whining about how they are they unfair etc.

All in all, MF is banned and DH is here, live with it and stop whining.

[DMOC2826]

Guys who said anybody was whining here? This is just suppose to be friendly mature debate of whether or not Mirror Force should return and its possibility of replacing dark hole. So tell me how that equates to whining? I seriously could care less whether MF returns or not; I haven't owned MF anyway since before the April 1st list of this past year, and I'm sure you guys wouldn't mind either if MF returned as well and I bet you'd add the card to your deck. :-/

[StealthoftheWest]

Mirror Force usually hits only one monster. If it returns, it will force players to be more conservative in terms of how many monsters they play.

Which doesn't require any skill whatsoever.

[drizzztdourden]

Mirror Force doesn't need to come back, We've got Dark Hole which is just as good or generally better.

We have 3 Sakuretsu and 3 Widespread.

Mirror Force is too broken to have around, and it punishes strategies more than Sak/WSR do.


Get along without it, you've got 6 smaller ones to play with for now.

but once its gone.... its gone

[Paladinseer007]

It's banned. Stop whining and put in some Saku's.

May I point out to you the fact that Sakuratsu armor cards only handle one monster on your opponent's side of the field which is very little help to people. :p

[corbomb]

I have 3 Sakuretsus and 3 Widespreads, they do everything and more Mirror Force did for me so it can stay banned

[Shadow of Death]

Screw dark hole. I would like mirror force to return. I already have 100 sakuretsu armor, and 2 widespread ruin, but mirror force has been a part of my deck for some time.

[Indignation]

We don't need free mass-removal, in my very humble and lowly opinion. If mass-removal is necessary, a cost involved wouldn't be bad. Vortex is fairly balanced, so why not release a watered down Mirror Force? The fact that Mirror Force has no cost is just, you know. I have problems with unfair, free cards.
I agree. Most players have problems with unfair free cards. Dark hole is enough. I do think it would be better if MF came back instead of dark hole as dark hole is better and more broken.

May I point out to you the fact that Sakuratsu armor cards only handle one monster on your opponent's side of the field which is very little help to people. :p

Can you understand that free massive removal cards unbalance the game? Like seriously. You are supposed to make up a strategey or spend your resources skillfully and wisely so you actually have to think before using a stupidly free massive removal card.

[topspin1617]

Can you understand that free massive removal cards unbalance the game? Like seriously. You are supposed to make up a strategey or spend your resources skillfully and wisely so you actually have to think before using a stupidly free massive removal card.

You have to think more with Mirror Force than Sakuretsu Armor.

You will never save Sakuretsu for a better situation, because it will always be 1 for 1 and never better, no matter how you time it.

Mirror Force can be a 1 for 1, but so much more if you time it right.

A bad player will turn a Mirror Force into a Sakuretsu Armor.
A good player will gain advantage with a Mirror Force.

Differences like that add skill to the equation of a duel.

[Paladinseer007]

I agree. Most players have problems with unfair free cards. Dark hole is enough. I do think it would be better if MF came back instead of dark hole as dark hole is better and more broken.



Can you understand that free massive removal cards unbalance the game? Like seriously. You are supposed to make up a strategey or spend your resources skillfully and wisely so you actually have to think before using a stupidly free massive removal card.

How do they unbalance the game, and another thing I know how to make up a strategy okay I have been in duels you know. Also their is ways of destroying or discard that card before it is actually used. :p

[Indignation]

You have to think more with Mirror Force than Sakuretsu Armor.

You will never save Sakuretsu for a better situation, because it will always be 1 for 1 and never better, no matter how you time it.

Mirror Force can be a 1 for 1, but so much more if you time it right.

A bad player will turn a Mirror Force into a Sakuretsu Armor.
A good player will gain advantage with a Mirror Force.

Differences like that add skill to the equation of a duel.
That is barely thinking but more of common sense. Almost no-one (good players) uses dark hole for a 1-1 unless they know they are doing it for good reason.

How do they unbalance the game, and another thing I know how to make up a strategy okay I have been in duels you know. Also their is ways of destroying or discard that card before it is actually used. :p

lol. There are many ways of negating or discarding CED or Raigeki but they are still broken and still are unbalanced as the easy use can give major advantage or game ending effects.

[topspin1617]

That is barely thinking but more of common sense. Almost no-one (good players) uses dark hole for a 1-1 unless they know they are doing it for good reason.

That's why we need to restrict Saku/Widespread and get MF back. That way, you don't have the ability to waste all your cards.

Now, with 3 of each, you can waste them however you choose. There is no strategy involved in flipping that card every time a monster attacks, just because you can afford to.

[Indignation]

That's why we need to restrict Saku/Widespread and get MF back. That way, you don't have the ability to waste all your cards.

Now, with 3 of each, you can waste them however you choose. There is no strategy involved in flipping that card every time a monster attacks, just because you can afford to.
Now there are people that waste it whenever they can but that is stupid. What if you have a monster that can take out their weaker monster. Are you going to just sak it or let it hurt you and then take it out for free. Or will you stop it because you are low on lp or because you want a free direct attack next turn for reaper or don. There is skill with them. At least they have to spend 1-1 cards instead of 1- possible 5 with the other 1-1 cards.

[schabutt]

I think Mirror Force Should be brought back,could careless about dark hole.Peopl Can say that dark holes a free broken card,but if think about someone waiting to use it untill the timeing is right and waiting for the opponent to fill up the field because they know there opponent will,its not there fault they were smart and waited to use it dark holes fine,but is still better than mirror force,Mirror force back in play would bring a lot more skill into the game,Like when to use it,Should i attack with this monster or switch it to defense mode,that face down card might be a mirror force,they both should be there untill it becomes much easier for new players to get the good cards.

[Tails9095]

It took me years to get my hands on another Mirror Force, but i'm glad it's on the list, to powerful!

[Paladinseer007]

That is barely thinking but more of common sense. Almost no-one (good players) uses dark hole for a 1-1 unless they know they are doing it for good reason.



lol. There are many ways of negating or discarding CED or Raigeki but they are still broken and still are unbalanced as the easy use can give major advantage or game ending effects.

Okay first of all, I was refering to mirror force since this is title of this thread.And I also apoligize if I wasn't specific with about which card I was talking about in my last post. Getting back to my point here, the way you were talking about mirror force is that MY WORD IT'S TOO STRONG I HAVE NO IDEA ON HOW TO STOP THIS GAMEBREAKING CARD!!! like I said before no card in this game is without a weakness. :p

[Maximillion Pegasus]

Personally, I'm not too fussed if it's unbanned or not. 3 x Sakuretsu and 2 x Widespread are good enough for now.

[topspin1617]

Now there are people that waste it whenever they can but that is stupid. What if you have a monster that can take out their weaker monster. Are you going to just sak it or let it hurt you and then take it out for free. Or will you stop it because you are low on lp or because you want a free direct attack next turn for reaper or don. There is skill with them. At least they have to spend 1-1 cards instead of 1- possible 5 with the other 1-1 cards.

Okay, how's this:

Your opponent has DDA, and you have a Spirit Reaper in hand. Of course you would use Sak Armor, with a chance at a free hit from Reaper.

If it was the same scenario, would you use Mirror Force? In that case, Mirror Force would be a waste to use on 1 monster. It's things like that you have to think about with more powerful cards.

[Indignation]

Okay, how's this:

Your opponent has DDA, and you have a Spirit Reaper in hand. Of course you would use Sak Armor, with a chance at a free hit from Reaper.

If it was the same scenario, would you use Mirror Force? In that case, Mirror Force would be a waste to use on 1 monster. It's things like that you have to think about with more powerful cards.

Now if your opponent has one or 2 cards in his hand would it really be a waste? you are still technically getting a 2 for 1. mirror force for the destroyed DDA and a free discard with reaper still alive. Now your opponent has one card and is in danger because your just going to cripple them even more next turn with whatever you have in your hand.

Do you really want to run a whole bunch of techs to stop a card like MF because it can ruin everything for you? Anyway I think we should get MF back and take away Dark hole.

Okay first of all, I was refering to mirror force since this is title of this thread.And I also apoligize if I wasn't specific with about which card I was talking about in my last post. Getting back to my point here, the way you were talking about mirror force is that MY WORD IT'S TOO STRONG I HAVE NO IDEA ON HOW TO STOP THIS GAMEBREAKING CARD!!! like I said before no card in this game is without a weakness. :p

Look,that is not what i am saying. Everything can be stopped. And it is not hard. I can make a full antichaos deck and beat chaos all the time and then lose to the other decks that aren't chaos. Ya you packed divine wraths royal decrees and everything that negates but then you get owned by some beatdown which doesn't rely as much on effects.

Mirror force gets used more then it gets negated. Heck how many times did you ever see BLS or CED get divine wrathed or solemn judgemented? Hmm not too many. You know when the cards are too powerful is when you use the same cards you are trying to beat because that is the most effective way to beat the same deck and the other random decks that come along.

[Paladinseer007]

Now if your opponent has one or 2 cards in his hand would it really be a waste? you are still technically getting a 2 for 1. mirror force for the destroyed DDA and a free discard with reaper still alive. Now your opponent has one card and is in danger because your just going to cripple them even more next turn with whatever you have in your hand.

Do you really want to run a whole bunch of techs to stop a card like MF because it can ruin everything for you? Anyway I think we should get MF back and take away Dark hole.



Look,that is not what i am saying. Everything can be stopped. And it is not hard. I can make a full antichaos deck and beat chaos all the time and then lose to the other decks that aren't chaos. Ya you packed divine wraths royal decrees and everything that negates but then you get owned by some beatdown which doesn't rely as much on effects.

Mirror force gets used more then it gets negated. Heck how many times did you ever see BLS or CED get divine wrathed or solemn judgemented? Hmm not too many. You know when the cards are too powerful is when you use the same cards you are trying to beat because that is the most effective way to beat the same deck and the other random decks that come along.

Okay I understand that, but should of said this before, how I understood you is that you were saying that mirror force and the chaos monsters and a few other cards are too powerful to stop. I mean I do understand what you're saying now, believe me I do, I mean that's all I'm saying. :)

[Tim86]

I don't know something tells me that Mirror Force has a good chance at returning in the next ban list. Widespread Ruin and Sakuretsu Armor are good substitutes but they are 1 for 1s only and cannot bail you out of a tough jam when you have 3 of your opponent's monsters attacking you like MF can. Besides, there are a lot of counters to Mirror Force that don't make it that ban-worthy:
Jinzo
Pitch Black War Wolf
Mirage Dragon
Elemental Hero Wildheart
Zero Gravity
Windstorm of Etiquita
Book of Moon
My Body as a Shield
^Anyways what are your thoughts on the card and what do you think its chances are for returning, and state your reasons please, TY ^_^

Add to the list: 7 Tools, Trap Jammer, Royal Decree, Solemn Judgment

In addition, it has a requirement for activation (like Torrential Tribute) at Battle Step, whileas Dark Hole, on the other hand, doesn't.

[DMOC2826]

Add to the list: 7 Tools, Trap Jammer, Royal Decree, Solemn Judgment

In addition, it has a requirement for activation (like Torrential Tribute) at Battle Step, whileas Dark Hole, on the other hand, doesn't.
Thank you for the additions and making that point about its activation requirement. You just stated two more good reasons why MF isn't as ban-worthy as the others, and why Dark Hole is much better ;-D

[Paladinseer007]

Thank you for the additions and making that point about its activation requirement. You just stated two more good reasons why MF isn't as ban-worthy as the others, and why Dark Hole is much better ;-D

I do agree with that, and it's like I was talking about with mirror force before after it came out other cards followed it to serve as a balance for the game.

[Indignation]

Thank you for the additions and making that point about its activation requirement. You just stated two more good reasons why MF isn't as ban-worthy as the others, and why Dark Hole is much better ;-D
This is true. It is not as banworthy as the others but it is still arguably ban-worthy. Although it would not effect the game as much as the others. It would be better to have MF than Dark Hole.

[Paladinseer007]

This is true. It is not as banworthy as the others but it is still arguably ban-worthy. Although it would not effect the game as much as the others. It would be better to have MF than Dark Hole.

I agree with that, because to me, it wouldn't be the same without having mirror force, because it's so cool. :D

[ajp123]

Mirror Force = possible uncosted advantage.
Possible uncosted Advantage = bannage.

Mobius, on the other hand, risks falling into BTHole, Torrential, etc., etc.

Capiche?

~AJP.

[topspin1617]

Mirror Force = possible uncosted advantage.
Possible uncosted Advantage = bannage.

Mobius, on the other hand, risks falling into BTHole, Torrential, etc., etc.

Capiche?

~AJP.

Every card than can give advantage doesn't need to be banned.

I would be happy if both were unbanned, having n00bs waste Dark Hole and Mirror Force on my one monster while I can get more advantage out of mind.

Instead of a bunch of 1 for 1's, we need a few cards that can gain advantage. That way, you can't just waste all your monster removal and the moves aren't all so obvoius.

Like, "oh Spirit Reaper in my way, I'll just use Smashing because 1 got 2 more in my deck".

If you Dark Hole, it's gone. You just got a 1 for 1 with Dark Hole, not letting it gain you the advantage it should.

Same thing applies to Mirror Force and its substitutes.

[DMOC2826]

Mirror Force = possible uncosted advantage.
Possible uncosted Advantage = bannage.

Mobius, on the other hand, risks falling into BTHole, Torrential, etc., etc.

Capiche?

~AJP.
MF risks falling into MST, Dust, Heavy, Trunade, Breaker, etc., etc... ;-P

[Indignation]

MF risks falling into MST, Dust, Heavy, Trunade, Breaker, etc., etc... ;-P
Raigeki falls to Spell shield type 8, magic jammer, solemn judgement, cursed seal, confiscation etc... and it's still damn broken! **** thats like saying BLS falls to BTHole, Torrential, divine wrath, solemn judgement, sakuretsu, smashing ground, widespread ruin etc...

Those kind of arguements are obselete and should be ignored.

Mirror Force = Easy possible uncosted advantage.
Easy possible uncosted Advantage = bannage.

^^^ That is a little more like it.

[ss4giel]

It punishes bad players. bring it back.

[topspin1617]

It punishes bad players. bring it back.

That's what I've been trying to say. It's really only broken if you let it be broken against you.

[ss4giel]

That's what I've been trying to say. It's really only broken if you let it be broken against you.

Same with Raigeki, etc. =/

[Paladinseer007]

That's what I've been trying to say. It's really only broken if you let it be broken against you.

I agree with that, Because to me the only way to stop it from getting you is to prevent it from happening to you, sorry if that didn't make any sense to anyone. :)

[Indignation]

Same with Raigeki, etc. =/
Hey BB|XIX| what's up?. I do not agree with ya on this one. Ya raigeki and those cads punish bad players but we have cards like dark hole to do that (which is also broken).

If you wanna punish bad players then make up a strategy or just play smarter than them with none free massive removal cards instead of just holding a raigeki in hand until you can get advantage.

Just play traditional you can do that as much as you want and punish bad players over and over again. If you can't seem to win much in this format then it is your lack of skill and not a problem with the ban list.

I say bring back traditional for 6 months just so people can remember the dark ages of yugioh and why many of these cards were banned. Then we won't have to show them again.

[Paladinseer007]

Hey BB|XIX| what's up?. I do not agree with ya on this one. Ya raigeki and those cads punish bad players but we have cards like dark hole to do that (which is also broken).

If you wanna punish bad players then make up a strategy or just play smarter than them with none free massive removal cards instead of just holding a raigeki in hand until you can get advantage.

Just play traditional you can do that as much as you want and punish bad players over and over again. If you can't seem to win much in this format then it is your lack of skill and not a problem with the ban list.

I say bring back traditional for 6 months just so people can remember the dark ages of yugioh and why many of these cards were banned. Then we won't have to show them again.

What you call "the dark ages of yu-gi-oh" most people consider to be high points of the game where it was actually fun. I know that a lot people consider these cards broken and all, but these were the cards that challeged us to play better, thinking of other ways on how to destroy these cards before they come out.

[topspin1617]

Hey BB|XIX| what's up?. I do not agree with ya on this one. Ya raigeki and those cads punish bad players but we have cards like dark hole to do that (which is also broken).

If you wanna punish bad players then make up a strategy or just play smarter than them with none free massive removal cards instead of just holding a raigeki in hand until you can get advantage.

Just play traditional you can do that as much as you want and punish bad players over and over again. If you can't seem to win much in this format then it is your lack of skill and not a problem with the ban list.

I say bring back traditional for 6 months just so people can remember the dark ages of yugioh and why many of these cards were banned. Then we won't have to show them again.

Right now we have nothing to punish bad players.

Without a way to punish bad players there is no differentiation between good and bad players.

Without a difference between good and bad players, skill plays no roll because there is no difference between a good and a bad player.

Therefore, without anything to punish bad players, skill plays no roll in the game.

Any questions?

[Indignation]

What you call "the dark ages of yu-gi-oh" most people consider to be high points of the game where it was actually fun. I know that a lot people consider these cards broken and all, but these were the cards that challeged us to play better, thinking of other ways on how to destroy these cards before they come out.
Do you know who asked for there to be a ban list? The players did. Why? Because the game was at an enjoyable (sarcasm) point of the same decks seen all the time. It was like "hey, I got a completely different chaos deck than him because I run a Asura Priest instead of Blade knight" (sarcasm) (the other 39 cards exactly the same). The only difference between decks was the side decks lol. Even the side decks were almost the same.

It was at a point where scientist otks would beat some of the world best players before they had their first turn! Let us say you are the best player in the world and you play some random punk, who plays scientist OTK, who wins the dice roll and goes first. He then slightly lucky wins next two matches on first turn and their first turn next game. He then goes to next round where he gets eliminated because of a bit of bad luck. Now this makes you look bad because you lost to some random guy who got owned by some other random guy.

Right now we have nothing to punish bad players.

Without a way to punish bad players there is no differentiation between good and bad players.

Without a difference between good and bad players, skill plays no roll because there is no difference between a good and a bad player.

Therefore, without anything to punish bad players, skill plays no roll in the game.

Any questions?

Lol. If there was no skill right now you would not be seeing different decks today at every SJC. The Germans thought of teching strike ninja, (check metagame) and they use it skillfully to generate advantage (if you cannot see how they generate advantage with it in this format then you should stay in traditional where the skill and combos stay relatively less complicated and require less thought). Skill plays a major roll in the game today. You just cannot be reckless like before. If two equally skilled players play each other with broken banned cards it will most likely be the one who draws it first who will be the winner. Like back in traditional.

[King of Dragon]

No questions but one simple comment with the only thing I disagree with. Holding a big card for a mistake isn't really skill its common sense.

:rolleyes: Heh the bad players in a game are the ones with 0 at the end of the game ya know.

[Indignation]

No questions but one simple comment with the only thing I disagree with. Holding a big card for a mistake isn't really skill its common sense.

:rolleyes: Heh the bad players in a game are the ones with 0 at the end of the game ya know.
I agree lol.

[topspin1617]

Lol. If there was no skill right now you would not be seeing different decks today at every SJC. The Germans thought of teching strike ninja, (check metagame) and they use it skillfully to generate advantage (if you cannot see how they generate advantage with it in this format then you should stay in traditional where the skill and combos stay relatively less complicated and require less thought). Skill plays a major roll in the game today. You just cannot be reckless like before. If two equally skilled players play each other with broken banned cards it will most likely be the one who draws it first who will be the winner. Like back in traditional.

You can afford to be more reckless now than before. We don't have many cards to punish that sort of play.

Skill still plays a role. But it is impossible for a good player to control the tempo of the game like they could before. With MoF, TER, and Tsukuyomi, they could control many aspects of the match. Now so much is left to chance.

[Indignation]

You can afford to be more reckless now than before. We don't have many cards to punish that sort of play.

Skill still plays a role. But it is impossible for a good player to control the tempo of the game like they could before. With MoF, TER, and Tsukuyomi, they could control many aspects of the match. Now so much is left to chance.
I agree with you here. Yes we cannot control as much as before but it;s not because of powerfull cards but because of the massive draw power that gave us such advantage that we can use the extra cards receaved for control.

[Makuku]

Personally, I'd not only prefer to keep Force banned, I'd love to see them Semi or restrict Sakuretsu and Widespread. xD

[topspin1617]

I agree with you here. Yes we cannot control as much as before but it;s not because of powerfull cards but because of the massive draw power that gave us such advantage that we can use the extra cards receaved for control.

It's just, I find myself thinking a lot less in this format. The moves all seem to be automatic, as opposed to trying to figure out the different ways out of a situation. Now, there is only 1 way to go about things most of the time.

[Indignation]

It's just, I find myself thinking a lot less in this format. The moves all seem to be automatic, as opposed to trying to figure out the different ways out of a situation. Now, there is only 1 way to go about things most of the time.
Yes yes I used to think like that too. But when you start using cards like LJM (legendary jujitsu master) (example) before he became famous you actually found a major use that most people will fall to since they are dogmatic and only learn from what they see.

If you find your not thinking when playing and you are winning constantly then its probably because you have a weak meta or surrounding players and you just play to their dumb mistakes or weak decks like instinct. What you would need is more competitive players to play against.

[topspin1617]

Yes yes I used to think like that too. But when you start using cards like LJM (legendary jujitsu master) (example) before he became famous you actually found a major use that most people will fall to since they are dogmatic and only learn from what they see.

If you find your not thinking when playing and you are winning constantly then its probably because you have a weak meta or surrounding players and you just play to their dumb mistakes or weak decks like instinct. What you would need is more competitive players to play against.

No it's the same on YVD. Even when I play good players, the matches are very one dimensional. There's always only 1 good move to make.

I play LJM too, but what does that have to do with anything? It was pretty obvious to me that it had a playable effect.

[ss4giel]

This is why I don't like posting my opinion on Pojo.

[topspin1617]

This is why I don't like posting my opinion on Pojo.

And why is that?

[Indignation]

No it's the same on YVD. Even when I play good players, the matches are very one dimensional. There's always only 1 good move to make.

I play LJM too, but what does that have to do with anything? It was pretty obvious to me that it had a playable effect.
I was using LJM as an example. Beleive me many many people on YVD are good players but not great and there is a great deal of noobs too (There are amazing players too but not as much as the average player). You know how long it actually takes to find and get a good match in there lol. I mean if you can only see one good move when you play then maybe you should try looking for different ways to do things or make decks instead of following everyone else. And many decks have one good move when you play because you set up the deck for mainly that one move.

[topspin1617]

I was using LJM as an example. Beleive me many many people on YVD are good players but not great and there is a great deal of noobs too. You know how long it actually takes to find and get a good match in there lol. I mean if you can only see one good move when you play then maybe you should try looking for different ways to do things or make decks instead of following everyone else. And many decks have one good move when you play because you set up the deck for mainly that one move.

Can you host on YVD? Because I'd like to have a match some time.

There is one move because the cards played today allow for only one thing to happen. They are not flexible.

[Indignation]

Can you host on YVD? Because I'd like to have a match some time.

There is one move because the cards played today allow for only one thing to happen. They are not flexible.
I agree they are not as flexible as before but they are abused and some might need some kind of restriction.

The thing is we are actually seeing different decks making big impacts like Bazoo OTK, Soul control, Chaos, FFC, FFC-chaos, Aggro, Beatdown, Burn etc..
In the last format there was one real dominant deck and that was a chaos deck with at least 20/40 cards constantly exactly the same as every other chaos. Now there can be a game of somewhat more skill but massive amount of same decks or a game of somewhat dogmatic plays which will probably change with the following ban list to correct this problem to the best of konamies ability (hopefully).

I cannot host on YVD but do you have hamachi? If you have MSN I can add you and then we can find a time to duel like tommoro or something?

[King of Dragon]

Can you host on YVD? Because I'd like to have a match some time.

There is one move because the cards played today allow for only one thing to happen. They are not flexible.

Yeah that's true. But the more flexiable cards aren't very playable right now. Also its not just the cards played also the way they are played. Being SO tight on cards for advantage reasons keeps some big moves from ever happening anymore.

Ouick off topic Q. Is this YVD thing free and will it screw me since I'm on dial up most of the time?

Thanks

Too short to make a new post.

[Indignation]

Ouick off topic Q. Is this YVD thing free and will it screw me since I'm on dial up most of the time?
Ya it's free and I do not think it will screw up on dial up since it doesn't seem to screw up on some others I know that use dial up

[DMOC2826]

Raigeki falls to Spell shield type 8, magic jammer, solemn judgement, cursed seal, confiscation etc... and it's still damn broken! **** thats like saying BLS falls to BTHole, Torrential, divine wrath, solemn judgement, sakuretsu, smashing ground, widespread ruin etc...

Those kind of arguements are obselete and should be ignored.

Mirror Force = Easy possible uncosted advantage.
Easy possible uncosted Advantage = bannage.^^^ That is a little more like it.
In that case you might as well ban Torrential Tribute, a card that doesn't discriminate unlinke MF ;-/

[Paladinseer007]

I still think that mirror force should come off the next list, when it originally came out their have counters to destroy or have discarded to your opponent's graveyard if your opponent had one in their hand that is.

[Paladinseer007]

In that case you might as well ban Torrential Tribute, a card that doesn't discriminate unlinke MF ;-/

Okay, what would that solve if Torrential tribute got banned. More importantly, Mirror force doesn't discriminate it can easily be countered by most counter trap card. :p

[CHaOsYaTa]

Its stayying on the list nuff said.

[JasonJaguar]

yeah id rather it not comeback its annoying as hell so leave it banned

[Pacman]

Mirror Force should never come back.

It's a terrible (going up against it) card that is a possible 5-1. I say leave it banned.

[darkphoenix88]

I say trade torrential for mirror force if anything.

[topspin1617]

Mirror Force should never come back.

It's a terrible (going up against it) card that is a possible 5-1. I say leave it banned.

Sure, if you're dumb enough to have 5 monsters in attack mode and attack while your opponent has a trap and has not used Mirror Force yet.

[Kid dark magicain]

There are numerous substitutes for Mirror Force. It's staying banned, get over it.
i think it should come back i mean wats the matter with leaving ur life points open 4 1 turn u'd probably have a waboku set and ready to protect your life points 4 that turn right

[Kid dark magicain]

i agree if u cant take mirror force u guys r little girls.

[kEviN21]

NO need for mirror force to return...if it does then it makes sakurestsus and widespreads "useless"....

[topspin1617]

NO need for mirror force to return...if it does then it makes sakurestsus and widespreads "useless"....

Um, no it wouldn't.

[BLSoldier109]

It should stay banned because well its how do i put this...
broken There is a reason saku's/widespreads are played in 2-5 per deck about they are really good. Mirror Force is just a more broken version of these cards the only way i agree with this being unbanned is if they ban/limit both saku and widespread.

[topspin1617]

It should stay banned because well its how do i put this...
broken There is a reason saku's/widespreads are played in 2-5 per deck about they are really good. Mirror Force is just a more broken version of these cards the only way i agree with this being unbanned is if they ban/limit both saku and widespread.

That's what I want:

unban MF
restrict SA and WR

[Paladinseer007]

That's what I want:

unban MF
restrict SA and WR

I like that idea, because to be honest widespread and sakuratsu's are really annoying in mutiples. :D

[Shadow The Unborn]

Mirrior Force return!!!!? WHY DON'T WE BRING BACK TRIBE INFECTING VIRUS WHILE WERE AT IT!!? [scarcasim]

[Paladinseer007]

Mirrior Force return!!!!? WHY DON'T WE BRING BACK TRIBE INFECTING VIRUS WHILE WERE AT IT!!? [scarcasim]

Okay, because it really should come off the list, because there are so many counters in the game that it doesn't seem so much ban-worthy.

[DMOC2826]

Okay, what would that solve if Torrential tribute got banned. More importantly, Mirror force doesn't discriminate it can easily be countered by most counter trap card. :p
Yes it does discriminate; it destroys only ATTACK position monsters. Torrential destroys all monsters regardless of position. That is what I meant by discrimination. ;-P

[topspin1617]

I like that idea, because to be honest widespread and sakuratsu's are really annoying in mutiples. :D

Yeah, that's my point. In many cases, multiples of Sakuretsu Armor and Widespread Ruin can be more deadly than a Mirror Force. This is because they can kill your monsters one at a time as you summon and attack with them.

However, once Mirror Force is used, they don't have multiples of that to keep hitting your monsters.

[ChaosDark]

Mirror Force is at one now scrub I guess you were wrong and are just bad at this game.

Nice Necro!

[?0123456789?]

Mirror Force could go to 3 and have no impact on this game the way it is now. Who would have ever thought this game would get so degenerate enough to allow for such a transition seven years ago when this thread was made? My, how times have changed ...

[Saifullah]

Mirror Force is at one now scrub I guess you were wrong and are just bad at this game.

7 year necro? are you 12?

[LSswarmer]

FuzzyMuffin is the worst troll ever. First he tries to argue that Pot of Greed is balanced and then he thinks that necrobumping is cool on 7 year old threads. Grow a pair.

[Silencer]

Mirror Force is at one now scrub I guess you were wrong and are just bad at this game.

Petty ego boost is petty but... What else can we respect from a ******ed baboon with Down(s?) Syndrome.

[VaironGod]

Mirror Force is at one now scrub I guess you were wrong and are just bad at this game.

The list was real. Aren't you supposed to be gone by now?

[footfoe]

game is broken. multiple mirror forces won't do anything.

hunter sends it before you can set it. Laggia negates it. hornet destroys it.

[SkaterTrainer]

Mirror Force is at one now scrub I guess you were wrong and are just bad at this game.

7 year necro. Kill youself