Romancer's Ideal Ban List [Archive]

Romancer

12-04-2005, 05:59 PM

Here's what I'd like to see out of the next ban list. I’d like to play in a more diverse environment, for starters, and to make such an environment, it’s my opinion that the over-powered cards need to be banned or restricted, depending on how powerful they are in relation to the available card pool. Also, It'd be nice to play in an environment devoid of the cheapest win conditions possible, which means no FTK, easy to execute 1TK, or easy to pull off total lock downs.

I see costless (excluding the card itself) mass removal as the greatest evil at the moment, alongside 1 for 1 monster removal. Konami has already banned all but 4 costless mass field removers from the game, so why leave the rest. It undermines their efforts to make costed remakes of cards to let these cards stay off the ban list.

Costless 1 for 1 monster removal is cheap, and it requires little to no thought or skill to use them. You see a monster you don't want to deal with or can't deal with, so you drop a card on the field, and it is gone. There's so much of it currently that the game has become a match of trading 1:1s in a battle of card advantage, making the field secondary to all else.

Costless removal undermines tribute monsters, nomi monsters, fusion monsters, ritual monsters, and all spell/trap cards that do not instantly destroy a monster, or ones that do, but require a cost or have a situational condition. No one wants to use costly removal or summon anything more than the most powerful LV 4 monsters, when they know the loss of card advantage could cost them the game, and that monsters won't see a turn 3, even in a deck based on protection and summoning.

Another big problem with costless spells and traps is that you are using a type of card that you can use any number of per turn against a card that you are limited to 1 per turn of. Monster vs. monster 1 for 1s usually break even, but a single S/T against a monster creates an opening to get a monster out and get damage.

Overpowered cards: Konami has printted fewer and fewer of these over the years, and they have pushed numerous themes and new powerful monsters... But who cares. +95% of Yu-Gi-Oh cards might as well not exist, because they cannot compete against the 5% of cards that are overpowered. I'd very much like to play in an environment where I can use and will play against more than the same 50 - 100 cards. Most cards have a balance between activation condition, costs, versatility, and results, but they'll never see play when there are cards that can do the job that it would normally take 2 or more of them to do. Why use cards to change monster positions, negate attacks, stop monsters from attacking, or anything else, when you can just activate a S/T card, and the monster is gone.

This list is not meant to act alone, and it would require Konami to do their job by printing the types of theme support that this game badly needs. Seriously, we don't need 2 broken forms of S/T removal, we need 20+ balanced S/T removal options that function better or worse in different decks. Same with monster recurrsion, and monster removal, and everything else in this game. The list is only there, because no one would use the new balanced cards while they can run the most versatille and over-powered cards available to them.

***Mini-checklist at bottom, for easy access.***

Forbidden Cards

You cannot use these cards in your Deck, Fusion Deck, or Side Deck.

- Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning: Too much power for too small a cost. Leads to some seriously cheap wins.

-Butterfly Dagger - Elma: Too many infinite loops with Gearfried. (Never coming off the ban list, unless there is a ruling change forbidding infinite loop locks.)

- Change of Heart: One of the cheapest wins possible.

- Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End: Too much power for too small a cost. Also, does too much damage with its effect leading too cheap game ending wins.

- Cyber Jar: Mass monster removal with no cost, condition, or thought other than to set it. Changes the entire field and leaves the outcome to luck.

- Dark Hole: Free mass monster removal with no cost, and the drawback of destroying your own monsters if you chose to play them before using this (that’s hardly a drawback).

- Delinquent Duo: Robbing your opponent of 2 options (equivalent of 2 draw phases) for an insignificant amount of LP is just plain cheap. Can lead to cheap wins and prevents multiple card combos from being implemented in decks more often.

- Fiber Jar: Resetting the game, except LP during tournaments is annoying. There isn’t enough time to be dealing with this kind of card in tournaments.

- Graceful Charity: Draw power, deck thinning, controlled discards, and now, Dark World swarming from what should be a cost on a powerful draw card.

- Harpie's Feather Duster: Free mass S/T removal.

- Heavy Storm: Another S/T field clearer with no cost, and the drawback of destroying your own S/T cards if you chose to set them and not activate them before using this. Not as broken as Dark Hole, but still too powerful for its own good.

- Imperial Order: Free chainable spell negation plus the ability to keep your opponent locked down from 1/2 of their deck’s resources at a minimal and optional cost to the player... Broken.

- Magical Scientist: Scientist FTK/1TK. There is nothing cheaper than losing before you’ve even drawn. Broken. If Catapult Turtle didn’t exist, then this would be Restricted to 1. It’s that powerful.

- Makyura the Destructor: Reversed World 1TK and loop combo with Cliff The Trap Remover. Another cheap way to lose.

- Mirage of Nightmare: Mass drawing and discarding that can be used in combos to help a lot of 1TK decks.

- Mirror Force: Wiping out an opponent’s entire monster zone with 1 card just because they attacked is too much power for 1 card.

- Monster Reborn: Too powerful at no cost. Free monster recursion with no restrictions to position or which player’s graveyard.

- Painful Choice: Helps too many 1TK decks, and its drawback is the best part of its effect.

- Pot of Greed: Deck thinning, hand replenishment, no cost... Nuff said.

- Raigeki: Free mass monster removal.

- Ring of Destruction: Free monster removal and game ending damage inflicter. Cheap wins.

- Sangan: Not as bad as Witch, but still powerful. All it must do is see the field and leave the field, and you get card advantage in the form of most any monster from your deck that your heart desires. The only way to get around his effect is RFG.

- Sinister Serpent: Negates all discard costs, gives you a monster to set every single turn.

- Snatch Steal: Having a monster stolen once and tributed or turned lose on you is cheap.

- Torrential Tribute: Costless mass monster removal with a negligible cost.

- Tribe-Infecting Virus: It’s Lightning Vortex, but it’s recyclable, and it’s built into a 1600 no tribute monster. The ability to clear the field at will is just too much power to give a no tribute monster with no recursion restrictions. This is a theme deck destroyer.

- Tsukuyomi: His/Her versatility helps many 1TK decks, but also, this card seems to be the heart of brokenness and abuse for many a combo. This card was Goat Control more so than Scape Goat, Metmophasis, or Book of Moon. This card makes that interesting Neebleworm into a brutal deck out engine. In a format with limited removal, who knows what the next heinous CC is that will come from abusing this card. Magician at Faith at 1 with this card, could easily become Magician of Faith at 2 plus with this card (one more reason no one wants Raigeki back). 6 months on the list to give the other great spirit monster some company would be okay by me. It might even be safe to play a monster with a weak defense now.

- Witch of the Black Forest: She can fetch most any monster in your deck upon leaving the field regardless of how she gets to the graveyard. Worst of which, she fetches the beatsticks and all weenie monsters.

- Yata-Garasu: The very definition of cheap win conditions. Raise your hands if you love to be Yata-Locked regardless of the opponent’s skill level...

New Restricted: Cyber Jar, Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, Sangan, Snatch Steal, Torrential Tribute, Tsukuyomi

Limited Cards

You can ONLY use one of the following cards in the Deck, Fusion Deck & Side Deck combined.

- Book of Moon: Extremely versatile. Recycle your flip effect monsters, stop 1 monsters attack, set up a monster to be destroyed, etc. It's numerous cards in one, has no activation cost, minimal requirement, and you can use it on any turn. Did, I mention it helps 1TK decks relying on flip monsters.

- Book of Taiyou: Helps 1TK decks, ecspecially when combined with BOM.

- Brain Control: This card can be minimally costed removal, but only if you have a monster to tribute the stolen monster for. Otherwise, it has the potential to do that cheap trick that Change of Heart does.

- Breaker the Magical Warrior: Destroy 1 S/T card for free and keep a 1600 attack monster. This thing isn't godly, but it is powerful enough to need limiting.

- Bottomless Trap Hole: 1 for 1 monster removal. The condition is almost minimal. Deters players from playing more tribute monsters, nomi monsters, ritual monsters, fusion monsters, and at times, just summoning during a turn.

- Call of the Haunted: Free recursion with few limitations.

- Card Destruction: Helps 1TK decks. Helps Dark World. Helps any deck relying on filling the graveyard. Helps any player wanting to draw new cards, while screwing the player who was setting up a combo in their hand.

- Ceasefire: Flip negation and game ending burn. Cheap win condition.

- Compulsory Evacuation Device: I had previously over-looked this little gem. In essence, it is costless 1 for 1 removal, even if it is only temporary removal. This would become new splashable removal if left unchecked with the destroyers gone.

- Confiscation: 1 for 1 hand disruption with a cost. Too powerful if run in multiples, but not so powerful it needs to be banned completely.

- Creature Swap: I hate this card. It’s ugly and cheap. Also, it combos well in more decks than it should be allowed to.

- Cyber Dragon: A free 2100 beatstick anti-swarmer swarmer. They shouldn’t have made its effect a special summon. (Sadly, I'm the type of person who would like to see Cyber Dragon decks at their full potential after SOI and EOJ, but Konami f***ed up by making this card the epitome of CC splash cards. Honestly after EOJ is released, thsi car dmay not need to be restricted in anyway, shape, or form, thanks to some darlingly broken and splashable monsters named "Lightning Gears."

- Cyber Stein: Cheap... Very very cheap.

- D.D. Assailant: Guaranteed to break even or gain field advantage.

- D. D. Warrior Lady: Guaranteed to break even or gain field advantage. Her optional effect makes her more dangerous than D.D. Assailant.

- Dark Magician of Chaos: Extremely powerful, but cannot do it’s 1TK with only 1.

- Exchange of the Spirit: 1TK condition.

- Exiled Force: 1 for 1 monster removal that is almost non-negateable.

- Exodia the Forbidden One: I hate Exodia for technical reasons. With each set release, comes the potential for a crappy card to accidently make Exodia another broken 1TK. Even some of the crappiest cards to date must be restricted just to prevent Exodia from becoming another Scientist FTK/1TK deck.

- Fissure: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes a 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Hammer Shot: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys. Its drawback keeps it from being restricted.

- Injection Fairy Lily: I love Lily, and I’d love to see her unrestricted. It’d finally be a reason to run LP gain decks, but she has too much potential to become another 1TK nightmare.

- Last Turn: 1TK condition.

- Left Arm of the Forbidden One: See Exodia

- Left Leg of the Forbidden One: See Exodia

- Lightning Vortex: Mass monster removal with both a cost and restrictions, but if kept at 1, people desperate for removal will have to choose between other 2 for 1 monster removers, such as Tribute to the Doomed, Raigeki Break, and Dark Core.

- Limiter Removal: 1TK is written all over this card. Potentially makes any machine type monster into a 1TK attacker. Machines need more S/T support, not 3 copies of license to do a machine 1TK.

- Mage Power: 1 of the 2 best equips in the game. Perfect where it is.

- Magic Cylinder: It loses advantage, but it negates an attack and potentially does huge burn damage. This card would probably be really bad if not kept restricted.

- Magician of Faith: This is one of those cards that is average on its own, but has the potential to become broken each time a new card is released. This card's power is determined by the available spells.

- Manticore of Darkness: Has that delightful Manticore infinite cycle.

- Morphing Jar: Helps 1TK decks.

- Mystical Space Typhoon: Free 1 for 1 S/T removal with no restrictions. Too versatile to be run in multiples. Totally undermines all other S/T removal with restrictions.

- Needle Worm: 1TK potential, ecspecially with Devildozer and other SOI releases.

- Newdoria: It is 1 for 1 monster removal, but even I don't know if it has enough power to be abused in 3s. I'd say, because of how it gets its effect, it is a better semi-limited choice, but I'll leave it here until I have solid evidence it cannot become broken removal.

- Night Assailant: In multiples, it makes all costs negligible. Costs are costs and should not be free.

- Nobleman of Crossout: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition.

- Premature Burial: Recursion with negligible costs and conditions.

- Protector of the Sanctuary: Nothing special, until comboed with Morphing Jar or Card Destruction, and soon, Chainsaw Insect. Add in cards to reuse those cards, and yeah...

- Reckless Greed: Another Exodia necessary restriction, unless we want to see an Exodia deck pull 2 - 6 cards at the cost of 1 for 2, followed up by or preceeded by any number of combos to convert unnecessary cards to Exodia pieces.

- Reflect Bounder: Magic Cylinders in a monster. I’d move this to semi-limited, if I wasn’t positive it’d show up in 2s in any machine or chaos deck that could afford 2 of them.

- Return From The Different Dimension: This card has the potential to become another 1TK nightmare if let run in 3s. It’s just a matter of time before someone breaks it. Better safe than sorry. Possibly a safe bet at Semi-limited though.

- Right Arm of the Forbidden One: See Exodia.

- Right Leg of the Forbidden One: See Exodia.

- Sakuretsu Armor: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Scapegoat: Chump blocking with scapegoat more than once in a duel is annoying and cheap. This card gives too much for too little.

- Smashing Ground: Free 1 for 1 monster removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Swords of Revealing Light: Free stalling. Abusable in multiples.

- The Forceful Sentry: Tough call. If D.Duo was running amuck, then keeping this banned would be a necessity, but as it stands, I could go either way on this. It’s too powerful to be at more than 1 per deck, but it is a 1 for 1 trade off. Honestly, I could care less if this was restricted to 1 or banned.

- Thousand-Eyes Restrict: Too powerful in multiples. This card is goat control.

- Trap Hole: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Twin-Headed Behemoth: Stuck on the limited list until the end of eternity due to complications in its rulings when sent back to its deck. I'd like it to be un-restricted, but that would require a ruling change that I don't forsee in the near future.

- United We Stand: The best equip in the game.

- Upstart Goblin: This card sucks, but Exodia loves it.

- Widespread Ruin: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

New Limited: Bottomless Trap Hole, Brain Control, Compulsory Evacuation Device, Creature Swap, Cyber Dragon, Cyber Stein, D.D. Assailant, Fissure, Hammer Shot, Last Turn, Manticore of Darkness, Needle Worm, Newdoria, Return From The Different Dimension, Sakuretsu Armor, Smashing Ground, Forceful Sentry, Trap Hole, Upstart Goblin, Wide Spread Ruin.

Semi-Limited Cards

You can ONLY use two of the following cards in the Deck, Fusion Deck & Side Deck combined.

- Abyss Soldier: Powerful monster removing effect, but with a cost. Powerful enough with 2.

- D.D. Warrior: Not as potent as the other 2 D.D.s, but still has a lot of power. It is a 1:1 removal monster.

- Deck Devastation Virus: This cards effect is very powerful, but its cost is heavy enough to balance it out. Nonetheless, I’m sure someone would find a way to make it broken in 3s.

- Enemy Controller: This card is very versatile. Free monster attack negation with the ability to steal monsters. This card is here because it overshadows many of the other good cards. Most players will not even consider other options when they can have 1 easy answer in a single card, even if there are better choices.

- Gravity Bind: Stall has enough assets. They can survive with only 2 of this.

- Guiding Hand of Nephthys: This is the card that give Nephthys most of her playability. It'd be interesting to see some Phoenix decks in the future, and limiting or semi-limiting this card should let that happen without making the deck broken.

- Jinzo: Powerful monster, powerful effect. Overshadowed by Mobius’s destruction power and Royal Decree’s splashability. I’d give him a chance here. I don't think he's still the same godly monster he once was, and how many CC decks can really afford to add 1 more tribute monster into their decks? Maybe at 2, Jinzo could have his own dedicated deck type.

- Level Limit - Area B: Stall has enough assets. They can survive with only 2 of this.tage. Too powerful in 3s.

- Man Eater Bug: 1 for 1 monster removal in a not so convenient or versatille form.

- Mask of Darkness: Same as MoF. Potential to become too powerful with each card release. Not as powerful as MoF due to traps being slower.

- Messenger of Peace: Stall has enough assets. They can survive with only 2 of these. Although, with this card's cost being optional and virtually irrelevent, this thing is probably worthy of being cut to 1.

- Metamorphosis: There should be morph decks, just not goat control decks. This card is a deck type in itself, so it deserves at least 2.

- Old Vindictive Magician: 1 for 1 monster removal in a not so convenient or versatille shell.

- Reinforcement of the Army: The most versatile searcher in the game.

- Royal Decree: Do people really need to run this thing in 3s?

- Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys: For a monster with so many handicaps and drawbacks, it sees quite a bit of play. Why not a bit more?

- Solar Flare Dragon: One of the big 3 abusable burn cards. Semi-limiting this should curb people's fear of savage CC burn without killing the burn deck or making it uncompetetive.

- Stealth Bird: One of the big 3 abusable burn cards. Semi-limiting this should curb people's fear of savage CC burn without killing the burn deck or making it uncompetetive.

- Wave Motion Cannon: This card is just waiting for a chance to be abused and made broken. Better to deal with it now, than have to suffer for 6 months. Also, this is 1 of 3 abusable burn cards, IMO.

- Yomi Ship: This card is D.D. Assailant's little sibling. It's 1 for 1 monster removal, but it has far more restrictions on it than the two bigger D.D.s or Newdoria, not to mention painfully low stats.

New Semi-Limited: D. D. Warrior, Deck Devastation Virus, Enemy Controller, Guiding Hand of Nephthys, Jinzo, Man Eater Bug, Mask of Darkness, Metamorphasis, Messenger of Peace, Old Vindictive Magician, Royal Decree, Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, Solar Flare Dragon, Stealth Bird, Wave Motion Cannon, Yomi Ship

The following cards are no longer Restricted, Limited, or Semi-Limited:

- Emergency Provisions: I don’t understand why it was restricted to begin with. There is no point in limiting it for Traditional play. Traditional is a free for all to begin with, so what’s one more card for them.

- Good Goblin Housekeeping: This card is useless if it can’t meet its full potential.

New Unrestricted: Emergency Provisions, Good Goblin Housekeeping

Unreleased OCG cards aren’t on here, but if they ever come to the TCG, then they can keep their OCG positions on the TCG list. I would put Shield Crush at 1 though.

For anyone who wants a quick run down of what I've added or moved or why it is on the list at all:

Key:
Red = Costless Mass Removal/Costless 1 for 1 Monster Removal
Blue = OTK/FTK Supporters
Green = Abusably Powerful Effect
Orange = Cheese Factor: A.K.A. Cheap Win
* = Moved (Not Added)

New Restricted (8): *Cyber Jar, *Dark Hole, *Heavy Storm, *Sangan, *Snatch Steal, *Torrential Tribute, *Tsukuyomi.

New Limited (18): Bottomless Trap Hole, Brain Control, Compulsory Evacuation Device, *Creature Swap, Cyber Dragon, Cyber Stein, D.D. Assailant, Fissure, Hammer Shot, *Last Turn, *Manticore of Darkness, Needle Worm, Newdoria, Return From The Different Dimension, Sakuretsu Armor, Smashing Ground,*Forceful Sentry, Trap Hole, *Upstart Goblin, Wide Spread Ruin.

New Semi-Limited (8): D.D. Warrior,*Deck Devastation Virus, Enemy Controller, Guiding Hand of Nephthys, Man Eater Bug, *Jinzo,[/COLOR] Old Vindictive Magician, Mask of Darkness, *Metamorphasis, Messenger of Peace, Royal Decree, *Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, Solar Flare Dragon, Stealth Bird, Wave Motion Cannon, Yomi Ship.

New Unrestricted (2): *Emergency Provisions, *Good Goblin Housekeeping

Rudoku

12-04-2005, 06:14 PM

You picked the worst possible time to make a list like this. Especially since everyone was so sick of them before the September/October lists were official.

Edit: I made the mistake of actually reading some of it and can't believe you put Needle Worm on the list. Now I really hate these things.

solemnjudgement

12-04-2005, 06:19 PM

ure dum!!!!!!!!!!!

mech-hound

12-04-2005, 06:26 PM

Well thats certainly Holocaust style. I think u went a little too far.

zgoxten

12-04-2005, 06:29 PM

Romancer

12-04-2005, 06:35 PM

Hammer Shot kills yours too, and if you ever run Enemies in 3s...wow...But basicly it looks like you don't like 1:1s. Why bring back Forceful if it's a 1:1, it's free. Why not restrict Drop Off and Dust Tornado? =\
I hate 1:1 monster removal. The other 1:1 removal depends on the potential amount of damage it can do. Drop Off, Forceful, and Confiscation rob 1 card in your opponent's hand for 1 card in your hand. As far as 1:1 S/T removal, it depends on how abusable it is. It's not possible to abuse Dust Tornado, since you have to draw it, set it, and activate it the next turn or later. Also, there is tons of trap negation to keep Dust Tronados in check. MST, you can use anytime, anywhere, and the negation that stops it isn't very good. Why would a dragon deck run Stamping Destruction over an MST, where as a dragon deck would run Stamping Destrution over Dust Tornado.

mech-hound: I was aiming for a specific goal, so I may have gone a bit overboard. I was trying to eliminate 1TK/FTK, because I've never had fun playing against any such deck. It sucks sitting down, meeting a new person, who is usually very arrogent, and then parting ways without doing anything. And also, I loathe free removal. It defeats the purpose of using anything but over powered splashable monsters, since they are so disposable. Which things do you think are too extreme?

solemnjudgement: I already explained these are my opinions/ideal ban list. If you don't have anything intellignet to say, then don't post. "ure dum!!!!," isn't even English. It's spam and flaming.

zgoxten

12-04-2005, 06:42 PM

I hate 1:1 monster removal. The other 1:1 removal depends on the potential amount of damage it can do. Drop Off, Forceful, and Confiscation rob 1 card in your opponent's hand for 1 card in your opponent's hand. As far as 1:1 S/T removal, it depends on how abusable it is. It's not possible to abuse Dust Tornado, since you have to draw it, set it, and activate it the next turn or later. Also, there is tons of trap negation to keep Dust Tronados in check. MST, you can use anytime, anywhere, and the negation that stops it isn't very good.

Well, you ban the mass monster removal, and restricted all other monster removal. What happens once I start swarming? Get some GK spys out and sak them for jinzo. If my opponent swarmed me, what am I going to do about it? Looks like vortex is about all i can do about it.

Romancer

12-04-2005, 06:51 PM

Well, you ban the mass monster removal, and restricted all other monster removal. What happens once I start swarming? Get some GK spys out and sak them for jinzo. If my opponent swarmed me, what am I going to do about it? Looks like vortex is about all i can do about it.
There are lots of options. You just need to think outside the box, which is what I'd love to see more of when I'm playing. You can use 2 for 1 removal (Tribute to the Doomed, Dark Core), or a card like Special Hurricane, or Jowgen, or Gyaku Gire Panda, or Bottomless Shifting Sand, Bubble Crash, or Lightning Vortex, or Deck Devestation Virus... It all depends on your deck and side deck. There are a lot of cards out there for dealing with monsters. You don't need cheap removal to handle them. Curse of Anubis can handle any competitve deck out there, since no one plays normal monsters anymore. You cna use it as swarm defense then destroy a defense position monster next turn. Your opponent has just as many options available. If they don't wnat to use them, they don't have to.

Also, there is still 1 of each 1:1 monster removers left, so if a player was desperate, they could use 1 of everything instead of trying new things.

Pemolis

12-04-2005, 07:05 PM

My only problems are these.

ForceFul Sentry should stay banned. Confiscation is enough

- Deck Devastation Virus: (purely abusive with the amount of dark monsters avalable)
- Enemy Controller: (Similar to DDV
- Gravity Bind: (With Messenger, and Level limit, I think this should go to 1)
- Metamorphosis (this is just lunacy as a card itself).
- Jinzo (Should not be 2, just shouldn't).
Should be/stay restricted to 1.

Also, there is still 1 of each 1:1 monster removers left, so if a player was desperate, they could use 1 of everything instead of trying new things.

Infact most players probably will.

L2theZ

12-04-2005, 07:18 PM

Wow if this list ever takes effect the game would like die.

Romancer

12-04-2005, 07:29 PM

Wow if this list ever takes effect the game would like die.
Why? You could at least give a reason.

Pemolis: I wasn't sure of Forceful Sentry. I've never had to deal with it really. I've been hit by Confiscations and lots of D.Duos, but not Forceful. It seemed like it wasn't much worse than Confiscation, which I never found to be a big problem.

PainAgonySuffering

12-04-2005, 08:01 PM

The game is already a lil dull why make it any duller.

Romancer

12-04-2005, 08:47 PM

The game is already a lil dull why make it any duller.
I agree partially. This game is already getting quite dull. I have a bunch of great cards, but I can't play with most of them since they take a little extra to summon, and they don't stay around long enough for me to even enjoy the fact that they saw the field. I define a game as dull when it is not fun. Watching myself put a monster on the field then put it in the graveyard is not my idea of a good time. Nor, is it my idea of a good time to shuffle my deck pick up 5 cards then shake my opponent's hand and search for a new opponent because I just got schooled in the art of FTK/1TK.

I'm an old fashioned kind of guy. When I play a game, I kind of like to have control over whether I lose or win, and in a game where I can customize my deck with any cards I want, I like to be able to actually play with cards from the total card pool that I like rather than the 5% of cards from the card pool that I need just to endure the other 5% of the card pool that 4/5 of my opponents are playing. If bannign 5% of the card pool is what it takes to let me use and play against some of the other 95% of the total card pool, then I'm for it.

PainAgonySuffering

12-04-2005, 09:28 PM

Well managing your hand is the key to the game and truly field advantage doesn't really matter as much as it used to. Cards that let the game pass on for a little while longer have been taken away and games go by too fast.

sushi magician

12-04-2005, 10:00 PM

Its not bad but the inclusion of some cards sound fairly personal like your rant on exodia and monster removal, especially when tributes were mentioned. Most decks run 3 tribs at the most and running them is at the risk of the player when they get removed from the field. I don't know how long u have played but some bannings required more extemity than u described.

I have no major complaints about your banning but i find Needle Worm quite humorous (who am i kidding; 3 to complete ban-LMFAO) I am quite well aware of its its otk abilities but remember if u go to a sanctioned tournament, u have a side deck and a great deal of otk are unstable and easy to side against. Simple negation and chaining correctly can stop 1tk for the turn it was waiting, for which may not appear again later in the game. Its exclusive use will help opponents outside of specific decks for deck thinning.
edit: u put nw by mistake i see but its a bit extreme ven at 1

Torrential: An unchainable trap that is slower than Dark Hole and needs to be activated at the right time to gain advantage usually when an opponent over extends form their hand or field.

Cyber Jar: I think CJ will follow Morphing Jar wherever they go on these lists so seeing it on bans looks like an issue with monster removal alone. If flipped by an attack then it can backfire but the drawback can be managed so i get it. Both Jars warrant the same restrictions one is unlikely banned without the other.

As for restrictions I'm surprised u didn't find Breaker banworthy it shows that either u don't hear the endless rants about Breakers 1337 br0keness, not have it abused against u or can ignore personal losses against this monster. Some other restirctions sound like overkill especially at mentioning monster removal and tributes.

BTH: Unchainable, its a prevention effect to monsters not solution so is very prone to removal and even bouncing, BTH has to be ready b4 a monster becomes a threat. Running tribs and nomis is a risk that has to be taken frankly, tribs can use RftDD or DimFusion and sometimes parrt of running nomis is either protect them, with negation like MBaas or other negation or let them take the hit. I'm not sure if ppl run BTH much anyway.

CardD: it is strong and it has a place on the restricted list i find it funny ppl complain of its weakness that it nets -1 advantage. Remember it resets the opponents hand and is dependent on they quality of the opps hand, but deserves its restriction.

CoSR: Again with 1tk. Exodia would struggle for infinite draw running more than 1 trib monster. It is only available on End Phase and will be very vulnerable to removal even if u run 3 in a deck and more so with just 1. Most otk need space for suppport.

Confiscate: Not all powerful as it once was but can be more strategic. The 1000 lp can take its toll but idk. It should stay at either 1 or 0.

Creature Swap: Very abusable, for peopl who know how to use it, the only drawback is u don't decide which monster u gain. The giving a monster is by no means a drawback but an advantage in some decks. I won't be shocked if it goes to 1 and but 2 is fine with me. It has very abusable combos so i understand, recently i swapped a tsukuyomi for Horus, even i thought that was sick and very wrong :D bc the other player had overextended his hand.

Cyber Dragon: overhyped sometimes it can lead to over extension so unless u can win with to bad resource management 2100 attack point special summon can be countered and not with removal

DDA: It might see limitation to 2 but its situation is to be destroyed in battle and that option migth not always be open. If ppl complain about it enough it might be resticted.

DDWL: well its at 1 and can remain, again requires battle but not to be destoyed but it is abusable.

DDW: its effect is not optional if it crosses paths with the wrong thing then its screwed. Very much not as potent as the other two.

DFoMP: please tell me youre joking. Its a 2 for 1 with vanilla monsters its made for vanilla decks rather than exodia. Backup soldier may be slower but its made for exodia more than DF. Painful Choice is banned so thers no searcher for the pieces and searching with the like of TOmato leaves exodia VERY vulnerable on field

Fissure: seriously, fissure cries whenever it sees scapegoats, ifs a sub for smashing, it can be quite good but it can only barely reach the 1 for 1 idea. I know its potential to be used properly but its not always guaranteed to work.

Hammer: Are u aware this can be a dead draw and can kill your monster if u don't pay attention. It can be 1 for 1 but it can sit in your hand waiting too long.

Samshing: Its not always guarnatedd to get its effect and 1 for 1 is the best and if some monsters have better defense.

I'm getting tired so i pick up where i left off later cuz its a long list that i'm not gonna finish at the moment but a few last issue.

Forceful Sentry: This is FREE. takes one card from hand and then adds 1 to deck. Even only 1 used multiple times it can seriously screw strategy and lead to your opponents dead hand. Its arguable that it can be abused more than Confiscate and Delinquent it should saty banned. Its quite abusable trust me.

Good Goblin Housekeeping: plz check ruling on how to abuse this card. Although it is a bit slow to have all 4 cards the end result is very abusable and overpowered. 12 cards then send 3 to the deck and u now have a hand size of 9 at the use of 4 cards and now are up 3000lp. The -4 is a disadvantage but the -3 not so much.

Goodnight.

Paladinseer007

12-04-2005, 10:04 PM

ure dum!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, you read my mind. :D

Pemolis

12-04-2005, 10:46 PM

I'm an old fashioned kind of guy. When I play a game, I kind of like to have control over whether I lose or win, and in a game where I can customize my deck with any cards I want, I like to be able to actually play with cards from the total card pool that I like rather than the 5% of cards from the card pool that I need just to endure the other 5% of the card pool that 4/5 of my opponents are playing. If bannign 5% of the card pool is what it takes to let me use and play against some of the other 95% of the total card pool, then I'm for it.

I wanted to quote this because this is what I hope the banlist will do.

The Punisher

12-04-2005, 10:59 PM

Pemolis

12-04-2005, 11:18 PM

Congrats, Romancer, you just gagged, drugged, *****, and murdered the game in a few well-meaning keystrokes.

People complain that the game is too annoying with only 1:1's and the occasional 2:1's courtesy of Dark Hole/Heavy Storm, but now you just make the situation worse by actually making 1:1's a privilege.
Worse yet, you don't address the Chaos Sorcerer/Breaker situations, where 2:1's are seriously easy to obtain. Not to mention, you left Snatch Steal out of the Forbidden List, prompting even more lucksacking situations where simply taking over one of your opponent's monsters gives you the (undeserved) win.
Finally, Cyber Jar banned but Morphing Jar not? I might not agree with most of his lunacy and truly sickening views in this kids card game, but I completely agree with Conspire, AKA SavageCanadian in that MJ just helps losers get the best of people who KNOW how to create and maintain advantage.

Ah, the old saying stays true even today:

"Well-meaning intentions are the road stones in the path to hell"

I am going to add my own quote to that.
"Those who do nothing are the corpses that litter that road"

Romancer came out with a list which in most degrees, I agree with. Your arguement doesn't quite hold water (it does in some respects, and in others it does not.

For instance. You stated that romancer makes the 1 for 1 cards a privilage to run by restricting them to just 1. Ok that is indeed true. Since these cards are a privilage when they are restricted to 1, what are they when they are not restricted to 1? My only assumption here is that they are then a requriement (if they are when they are restricted to 1, then they should also be when they are not restricted at all). So I can ONLY infer that your solution to that would be to ban all those 1 for 1 cards on romancers restricted list completely. Again you did not make yourself clear on how you would correct this situation. It is Obvious that we cannot leave these 1 for 1 cards unrestricted because of their power, and we cannot merely restrict them because they become a privilage card. So what is your answer?

I assume the whole chaos sorcerer/breaker/snatchsteal fall under this same issue of 1 for 1 and 2 for 1's.

On the cyber jar/morphing jar issue. I believe someone in this post said that Cyber Jar and Morphing Jar will each follow each other. I somewhat agree with that poster. Many decks run sometype of combination of cyberjar/morphing jar, but even I am a bit iffish if the jar's would be banned as of it. They shouldn't be unrestricted, but I somewhat doubt they will hit the banlist anytime soon.

The reason I am actually saying this is because cyber jar tends to backfire from time to time, and strangely enough the Dark World cards seem to have regulated morphing jar to strict use for themselves only (opponents fear using morphing jars in their maindeck until they know that who they are up against isn't a darkworlds player).

Its a strange bit with the jars and I'll leave it at that.

dcbo89

12-04-2005, 11:23 PM

you went a little too far with this list, you've restricted some very important cards that without we'd all be in trouble, heavy storm and sinister dont belong there but yeah this list is way too strict and is over kill, the list we have now is fine as long as we get sinister back

VashTheStampede107

12-04-2005, 11:39 PM

If we had tribe and pot of greed back this meta would be the best with tribe being a real cost it's ok to run it and pot of greed is only plus 1 while people say plus 1 is a problem if you didn't lose anything from a don/reaper you don't care so don't cry about it

The Punisher

12-04-2005, 11:51 PM

[QUOTE=Pemolis]
For instance. You stated that romancer makes the 1 for 1 cards a privilage to run by restricting them to just 1. Ok that is indeed true. Since these cards are a privilage when they are restricted to 1, what are they when they are not restricted to 1? My only assumption here is that they are then a requriement (if they are when they are restricted to 1, then they should also be when they are not restricted at all). So I can ONLY infer that your solution to that would be to ban all those 1 for 1 cards on romancers restricted list completely. Again you did not make yourself clear on how you would correct this situation. It is Obvious that we cannot leave these 1 for 1 cards unrestricted because of their power, and we cannot merely restrict them because they become a privilage card. So what is your answer?

I assume the whole chaos sorcerer/breaker/snatchsteal fall under this same issue of 1 for 1 and 2 for 1's.
[QUOTE]

You know what happens when you assume, right? ;)

What doesn't seem right with this list is that it restricts cards that haven't seen enough abuse to warrant that spot in the official list (cases where the restriction was well-deserved: DDWL, MST, Scapegoat, Book of Moon). Smashing Ground? Yes, ok. But Fissure? Hammer Shot? Bottomless Trap Hole?
Why proceed in such a way that can actually lead to these cards tediously becoming CC (Except Bottomless, which does not stop Reaper or Don and is not worth using 3 of each), destroying the purpose of banning former staples in the first place? And where did you get that Fissure, Hammer Shot, or Trap Hole could possibly become "requirements" in the first place?

Sorcerer has taken the spotlight BLS had before in the current format, so being able to run him in 2 or even 3's will turn CC in no time in both lists - and worse under this one where most good monster removal is restricted or gone. Breaker is... well, Breaker. He kills traps before they spring out and on top 1600 is respectable to deal decent damage. Snatch, I'll repeat since this needs no more elaboration, makes lucksacking and winning this way much more frequent.

Oh, and since you made me look at the list again, there's something else I have to object to: the Exodia support as being killed. Dark Factory to 1? Card of Safe Return restricted too? How was Exodia a problem in the first place? Book of Taiyou was restricted to curve a decktype that had proven deadly at Worlds, while Exodia has gone nowhere in al these years. Just more details that worsen the situation.

I will not comment on the Jars situation since you unwittingly supported my claims with your opinion.

Next time keep yourself from assuming, inferring, and other variations from "guessing" just from the words a small post. If I started making my own version of a Ban List, you'd know the reasons behind it instead of having to rely on a thesaurus and an intense disliking of others' opinion to find them. K?

Relinquished

12-05-2005, 12:26 AM

Personally I like this list. I've always felt the same way as Romancer. There is a huge amount of cards that will NEVER see play simply because of a few cheap splashable removal cards. I would love to be able to use some monsters that are a little difficult to summon but are worth it once they are on the field. There's absolutely no chance of this happening now because it wouldn't even last till my next turn. Now that I think about, maybe they should ban all of those 1 for 1s. Otherwise people would just throw one of each into their deck and nothing will have changed.

That being said. There are a few changes I would make to this list. First, Exodia is already a weak deck so there's reason to make it weaker. Second, most stall decks fail in the current meta so I would leave the stall cards alone.

One last thing. I would like to hear good arguments about this list and not just "ure stupid".

Romancer

12-05-2005, 12:37 AM

A lot of the most insane looking choices on here are either preventitive measures or are due to 1 specific deck that abuses the card into a 1TK. Konami releases cards with seemingly little attempts at play testing, so there are occasionaly cards that are meant to be situational crap, but they end up creating some overpowered game killing combos along with other old crappy cards. Goat control and soul control are both products of numerous lesser cards that when thrown together have a lot of power. Soul Control presently isn't a problem, but Goat Control certainly was. Some of the cards we don't abuse now have the potential to be seriously abused with even 1 extra card release. Tsukyyomi was never that good even when NoC was at 2. It wasn't abused until goat control, and now it has abuse potential thanks to so many of the most powerful monsters having super weak defense stats. Add on the Mystic Swordsman Family, and this card's power is so much more than it was ever meant to be.

Every time I post in or see a thread about the game and originality, there is always this attitude like, "There will always be CC. There is no point in banning, etc. since the card will just be replaced by the next best thing." Fissure and Hammer Shot certiainly aren't great, but in terms of free monster killers, they are the next best thing. I tried to get all of them, as a kind of, "yes, the abusable ones are gone, but so are all the next best things." It's the only way to get people to try new things they normally wouldn't. And even is it is overkill, it certaintly wouldn't kill anyone to try out some other cards inplace of 3 copies of all the most abusable cards they can get a hold of.

Cards like DFoMP and some other odd cards are on there for 1TK/FTK reasons. Manticore of Darkness has a loop combo which is implemented with a rather crappy spell. Unlike Last Turn or Exchange of Spirit, some of the 1TK combos aren't as simple as limiting 1 card. I really can see Exodia becoming the next Scientist FTK. With all the support it has already, and the release of Magical Hammer, it's only a matter of time before someone finds a way to consistantly draw Exodia on their first turn +75% of the time. I'd rather not have to stop playing for 6 months to a year while waiting for Konami to debate if it is really an addressable problem.

Morphing Jar was a controversial card I didn't want to touch. Same as Card Destruction. Cyber Jare on the other hand, I added because it is a field clearer. I'm not a fan of watching a player go from skillfully manipulating the field towards a win, to being beaten to a pulp due to a lucky Cyber Jar flip. It's not a good way to win/lose.

All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing... (Well, it may be a little out of place, but it's a quote to end the morning on.)

senseker

12-05-2005, 12:47 AM

With that list,Burn rules.Liek,wh0ah.

Relinquished

12-05-2005, 12:54 AM

With that list,Burn rules.Liek,wh0ah.

I take it that you're saying that because Heavy Storm is banned in this list. There's still plenty of ways to deal with burn, and Konami keeps making more and more. Just look at the new Silent Insect from SOI.

SOI-JP020
Silent Insect
Earth/Insect/Effect/2/200/300
When this card is successfully Normal Summoned or Reverse Summoned put it in defense mode. When this card is face-up on the field; negate the effects of all Continuous Magic and Continuous Trap cards.

pineapple4brains

12-05-2005, 04:21 AM

I take it that you're saying that because Heavy Storm is banned in this list. There's still plenty of ways to deal with burn, and Konami keeps making more and more. Just look at the new Silent Insect from SOI.

SOI-JP020
Silent Insect
Earth/Insect/Effect/2/200/300
When this card is successfully Normal Summoned or Reverse Summoned put it in defense mode. When this card is face-up on the field; negate the effects of all Continuous Magic and Continuous Trap cards.

That card is mediocre...

Meh this list sucks that has been established now this thread should be locked

Faust_8

12-05-2005, 07:05 AM

Scarlet Spider

12-05-2005, 08:05 AM

Your list makes sense and does answer quite a few of the problems in today's metagame, at least in my opinion. Traditionally, ban lists have always gone and banned/restricted cards that are often run in the highest numbers possible in competetive decks. Also, cards like Change of Heart and Raigeki, considered staples when they were playable, have been remade not long after their original banning to newer, less broken cards. In other words, our next list could easily see the potential banning/restricting of Sakuretsu Armor, Smashing Ground, and DD Assailant as you have predicted, along with Cyber Dragon once Proto Cyber Dragon is released.

The only problem, as I see it, relates back to the lack of support for other deck types. Stamping Destruction is an awesome card, while Dragon support in general sucks. Same with Dimensional Magic, Reinforcements of the Army, Limiter Removal and Book of Life. Each type has some sort of awesome spell or trap, but virtually nothing else. Insects will become a little better with the next list, but still not tier one becasue all the good spell support they have is from PSV. For a list like yours to work and be successful, as it is a great one, we will need non-splashable suppirt available to all monster types.

Honda Hiroto

12-05-2005, 08:15 AM

Is restricting 1:1 really that bad? Do you really enjoy seeing the same @$$ cards like Sakuretsu Armor in threes? Isn't it boring?

Does anyone remember when MST was run in threes? I remember how the MST argument for restricting and non-restriction got heated up. Has restricting MST destroyed the game? Are stall decks godly now? No they are not. People were going insane and were fearful of MST being restricted. Well players have learned to adapt.

The samething will happen if other cards are restricted or banned. We'll all learn to adapt.

Since the bannings I've seen more interesting and diverse decks than ever before.

In the traditional format it got real old to see the same old crap over and over again. Those wins never felt as thrilling as wins today. Today's wins take more skills.

He||, I don't even see threads about "Staple cards" because they no longer exist. Anything to remove the cheapness and make the game more balanced is okay with me.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Most arguments against bannings and restrictions are fear related.

neowater

12-05-2005, 08:45 AM

why kill ALL 1 for 1s?

Restricting FISSURE?!

Unrestricting Emergency provisions and Goblin house keeping? Are you aware of the combo?

Well, you ban the mass monster removal, and restricted all other monster removal. What happens once I start swarming? Get some GK spys out and sak them for jinzo. If my opponent swarmed me, what am I going to do about it? Looks like vortex is about all i can do about it.

This guy is right.

Pemolis

12-05-2005, 09:41 AM

why kill ALL 1 for 1s?

Restricting FISSURE?!

Unrestricting Emergency provisions and Goblin house keeping? Are you aware of the combo?

Quote:
Well, you ban the mass monster removal, and restricted all other monster removal. What happens once I start swarming? Get some GK spys out and sak them for jinzo. If my opponent swarmed me, what am I going to do about it? Looks like vortex is about all i can do about it.

This guy is right.

Newdoria
Yomi Ship
Man Eater Bug
Monarchs
Nobleman Man Eater Bug
Waboku
Threatening Roar
Earthquake
1 Monster + Equip Card
Here is one for Pineapple4Brains. Pineapple Blast
Special Hurricane
Des Counterblow.
ANY WALL CARD
etc etc.

Good grief...

Strange cause most would say "IT SUCKS". People said that about Sakuesku Armor when it first came out. The reason being is because there were better alternatives (mirror force, 3 book of moons, etc). Since those have been restricted/banned, sakuesku all of the sudden became the "Needed" and awesome card.

The "Cause It Sucks" excuse does not work.

AmebaFTW

12-05-2005, 11:28 AM

Why? You could at least give a reason.

Pemolis: I wasn't sure of Forceful Sentry. I've never had to deal with it really. I've been hit by Confiscations and lots of D.Duos, but not Forceful. It seemed like it wasn't much worse than Confiscation, which I never found to be a big problem.

Your list is awful, and if you want reasons, I'll give you them.

You want to get rid of crappy cards like Hammer Shot? Lol. That's awful. That could easily backfire. Just to be left in your hand completely useless due to your opponent having a weaker monster than you. It helps you gain no offensive advantage, it only helps you defend and perhaps, retaliate.

Getting out tribute monsters is way too easy nowadays. If you remove all the crappy monster removal/protection cards like Book of moon/Enemy Controllers/etc., wtf is this gonna be. A tribute monster war?

Once someone gets a huge monster out, it'll be very hard to eliminate it with your list as is.

The reason there's so much removal is because it's too easy to get huge monsters out right now.

And come on. "Book of moon - Too powerful with no cost"

Every card you listed was "too powerful", and you gave a very bland description of the card which did NOT circle the full effects of it.

Enemy controller isn't even a 1:1, it's a 1:0. It just puts the monster in defense mode.

Same with Book of Moon. Sure it can combo with flip effects, but what flip effects are worth it now? And HELLO, using a book of moon on YOUR OWN monster is a -1 card advantage. So let them combo I say, spend that book of moon, when my Jinzo is nailing his face, he'll wish he kept it.

Oh and Snatch Steal should be banned btw.

Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, Snatch Steal, Torrential Tribute. In this format those are the only 4 huge free ultimately powerful cards which makes this game about "who draws them first or at the right time". It's pure luck to draw heavy storm when your opponent got a hand full of magic/traps even in a 20 monster card deck.

It's all chance. Getting a huge advantage due to chance is wrong. It doesn't take a genius to play Heavy Storm when your opponent has 2+ set cards.

Snatch Steal can turn the game around much like Change of Heart, obviously the 2 are vastly different, but they can still manage, in the right situation, to destroy the game your opponent has worked on.

Lets say your opponent gets Dark Magician of Chaos out, you simply snatch steal it and beat him down for the rest of the game due to CHANCE, the horrible bad luck of your opponent NEVER drawing his M/T Destruction cards.

This has happened to me (but with Mobius and not DMoC). I play with 1 Typhoon, 1 Dust Torando, Heavy Storm, Breaker, 2 Mobius's, and a giant trunade.

Not drawing a single one of them or any of my monster destruction during a single game is unbelievable bad luck, but you know what? He won with snatch steal as Mobius was the strongest monster on the field the whole game, he just kept summoning smaller ones to peck away at me within 2-3 turns.

Snatch Steal is also used to instantly steal and tribute any opponents face up monsters, we all know face up's appear often, so it's not a harsh condition.

It can easily and for free drastically turn the game around. And you can't expect me to run more M/T destruction than I do, otherwise I'll be walking myself into a top-deck wall and losing frequently.

blazkien2222

12-05-2005, 11:35 AM

cyber jar??? that should not be on the ban list because it can go your opponents way if they had no cards in their hand so there for it should not be on the ban list.

CHaOsYaTa

12-05-2005, 12:25 PM

This list Suxxorz.

Paladinseer007

12-05-2005, 01:22 PM

This list Suxxorz.

HereHere to that, I agree that this list sucks. :D

Romancer

12-05-2005, 03:07 PM

1) There are problems with your list (Heavy Storm? Are you kidding?). There are problems with anyone's list, even Konami's.

2) "Opinion threads" are pointless. They have no purpose and start flame wars.

Would you honestly be interested if I made a thread just like this one? Not really, huh? After all, I'm just some random gamer who thinks that I'm omniscient enough to change the Yu-Gi-Oh community.

Besides, posting one's opinions won't change anything. They're just opinions, not facts, are more often than not your opinions are totally unique (as in, most of us won't agree, which means that your dreams probably won't be realized).

1) Agreed. I even wrote that in the original post. It's not a perfect list. It is an opinion based list, but it's based on my experiences, which is why some cards are in places others wouldn't agree with. I simply haven't had enough bad experiences with certian cards and I've never seen the full power of some cards. I had strongly considered putting Santch Steal on the Restricted list, but I wasn't sure if it was really as powerful as I thought, or if I was beign biased, so I let it stay. From people's posts, I can see it should be banned, as it is not just me who thinks it is cheap and over powered. So, I'll move it on my list. Democracy in action, go figure, huh?

2) Disagreed. Opinion threads can be useless, but then again, they can open up a dialogue, and by opening a dialogue, it is possible to come to mutual understands and find compromised solutions that give the best to all worlds. Who knows, maybe a Konami rep will see this thread or a similar thread with a vast chunk of the game playing communities input made into a compromise of what players want and what the game needs, and they may just take it to heart.

If you make a list, I will check it out. Obviously there is interest enough for so many people to look and so many people to post. Most threads on Pojo are opinion related threads, which is proof that we are interested in each other's opinions.

As for flame wars, I won't flame anyone here even if they flame me. I expected to get a lot of flak, but I'm a big boy. I can let it roll off my back, while collecting good constructive criticism. Hey, I may even be able to see things from other's perspectives a lot better, and maybe a few people will see things from my perspective. Who knows. You learn new things everday, you know?

Dreams are funny things. If you give up on them, they are guranteed to never come true. A single man created a game that would one day reach to all corners of the globe and bring many diverse people together with a common interest. The man didn't actually distribute the game or market it. All he did was was use a media he was familiar with to distribute his dream to others, and a few of those others picked up the idea and distributed it, knowing it was a good dream with the potential for greatness. If he had caved on his dreams because of lack of support, I wouldn't get the pleasure of typing this up right now.

ADD: For anyone who has questioned Needle Worm's place on the list, I expalined my reasons on a Needle Worm thread. I'll post it below as well.

Needle Worm is one of those cards that sits very low on my radar. I don't much care about it now, but I realize the potential is there for it to suddenly become a serious problem. There are a lot of cards that seem bad or average, but given 1 good supporting card, that card becomes the definition of brokenness. Goat Control => Tsukuyomi x2 - 3, Metamorphasis x2 - 3, Book of Moon x2 - 3, Scapegoat x2 - 3, and TER x2 - 3. Alone, none of these pieces is anything special or godly, but as a whole, they are broken.

Needle Worm is one of those cards just waiting for 1 card release and a single person to put the pieces together. Dark World may not even be a viable answer depending on the support. There are cards to prevent summoning, and if a card such as Royal Oppression works against Dark World, then Needle Worm is already 1/2 to 3/4s of the way there. I'm positive SOI will give this card more power than it already has. 2 Needle Worms and a Book of Taiyou (a very realistic and do-able combo with cards such as Shallow Grave x3 and the upcoming Graveyard of Revival x3), you can potentially lose 15 cards form your deck in a turn. Come SOI, 2 dead Needle Worms become - 15 cards, and they feed Devildozer who WILL do damage and take 2 more cards. Since Devildozer is a special summon, Chainsaw Insect can be summoned that same turn and will force you to draw. You've lost 18 cards + your first turn's 6 cards, leaving you at minus 24 cards in 2 turns or less, not to mention you are now facing some big threats thanks to Needle Worms type. Add on currently existing cards such as Morphing Jars and Card Destruction, and you may be facing a new consistant 1TK deck very soon.

Needle Worm may not be godly now, but I do think it should be limited or semi-limited soon, before it does becomes the CC 1TK monkey to burden Advanced format's back for 6 months.

Paladinseer007

12-05-2005, 04:37 PM

cyber jar??? that should not be on the ban list because it can go your opponents way if they had no cards in their hand so there for it should not be on the ban list.

Yes, I agree that cyber jar indeed doesn't deserve to be on the ban list.Because like I said that card is an asset to this game. :D

sushi magician

12-05-2005, 09:13 PM

Now i'll pick up where i left off, i think at Sak but b4 that i want to point something out about hammer shot, if your opponent prevents their monster form being hammered it is 0:2 against you, i'm neve much for the whole 1;1 card advantage nonsense but destroyiny your monster like that is a fair indication of where it stands. While Morphing Jar ios easier to abuse than CJ which i have thoughts on at the end.

Sakuretsu: An Unchainable trap, nearly every form of m/t removal owns this card, its a targeting effect so avoiding its effect is no struggle, its run in 3s for comensation not for abuse, ie. among the good traps it thrown and pushed around like b!^$#.

Trap Hole: OFMGROFLMFAO, this is outdated. I think ther seems to be an echo that keeps saying "Too much power" on so many random cards. Check out todays CotD (http://www.pojo.com/yu%2Dgi%2Doh/COTD/2005/2005Dec/05.shtml) only DArk Paladin reviewed and he is usually kind to theme specific and some bad cards but even he doesn't think its good. Its a terrible card and i would have like to have seen how much worse the likes of EMoD, Coin or Tranorix have seen it but DP sums it up well, yes as 'old skool' as this and 1;1 as it is by no means 'rentsy'. Does not work on special summons and only destroys cards. What is great about it? Don Zaloog maybe is a target, but u haven't seen the last of Donny or any other monster that gets hit by trap hole. Sangan will still get its effect and Exiled calls priority. YOu have to set it b4 your opp summons and this thing is going to sit in the s/t zone for some time before its used, the chance of pulling off the effect is slim.

Widespread Ruin: Does anyone else see a pattern here. You dont get to choose what card is destroyed when u spring this trap on someone. Look at the current list, there are only 3 traps there and b4 it was 1. Traps can be slow.

Deck Devastion Virus: Its harmful to deck that use lower attack, did u enjoy the beatdown meta that much when people were only paying attention to high stats and playing monsters so aimlessly to attack. Its not hard to manage the costs sith good dark monsters to trib.

EC: You do have to attack the monster to actually remove it to benfit from EC later on. It blocks attacks, woohoo! and the control aspect is mediocre with better options in Mind Control, yes even i think it has a better control effect han EC but not the quickplay ability of course.

Magical Dimension: Hah i run Spellcasters but i won't let it become personal :D , it does lead to bad hand management at times and that is a drawback. If u even let your opponent use 2 of these that are in their hand then that requires a further 2 spellcasters in hand to use so thats 4. If the situation nis 3 thats 6 in hand in favor of opponent and that is a big advantage they have already developed on you.

Hammer: Its not a quick play like reload and for crying out loud exodia has hardly been top tier. It does not have power in this meta nor does it even have speed. It is unbelievable vulnerable at losing one piece to RFG and its lack of speed leaves it open to be run over without getting its pieces in hand.

Mask: very few pplr un this bc traps are slow when u revive with MoD they know which trap has been brought back and then it has to be set before being played as apposed to MoF letting a magic be played when it comes back.

I'm an old fashioned kind of guy. When I play a game, I kind of like to have control over whether I lose or win, and in a game where I can customize my deck with any cards I want, I like to be able to actually play with cards from the total card pool that I like rather than the 5% of cards from the card pool that I need just to endure the other 5% of the card pool that 4/5 of my opponents are playing. If bannign 5% of the card pool is what it takes to let me use and play against some of the other 95% of the total card pool, then I'm for it.
How do you define contol? Does it mean having a big monster on the field, now u summoned your monster after that it looks the like games over you've won bc u are about to set up a win condition. All u need is to keep that monster there while u attack your opponent. You can't always have control of the game cuz u can't control what your opponents deck is and how they use it.

There seems to be an issue in this banlist regarding monster removal, like banning cyber over morphing and restricting Hammer Shot, Fissure, Smashing, Armor, Widespread and BOTH Trap Holes. In my experience most monsters will last a MAX of 2 to 3 turns if u don't run protection. Summoning a big monster isn't ending the game, keeping it there and mantaining control of opposing resources can win games. There are other ways to end a game besides attacking, and even so the last attack can come courtesy of a Masked Sorcerer gving u resources, a Kycoo controlling the graveyards or Newdorai. Some decks centre on cards but try not to rely on them to give contingency. An Ouija Board is unstable but can be fun and Ojama can make a very nasty lock.

It seems that the ban list was made to cater for your own deck being assisted by crippling the removal that its weak against. Believe it or not otk have problems with stabilizing and can require good timing and control like rescue. You said u don't know whats best for the game so thats honest, but some of your list is based on wat is personally overpowered so its not necessarily taking other decktypes into account. Also without knowing the game how can u be aware of future set releases and what has potential for abuse in other sets if u don't know any is biased and not based on anything solid. I don't know what you assume from bannings, but some restricted cards that you placed are slow and need to prepared for. GEez i need sleep again muct stop staying up.

Upsidedownwurld

12-06-2005, 06:09 PM

Romancer

12-06-2005, 07:26 PM

Smashing Ground? Needle Worm? Cyber Dragon? Sakeretsu?

WTF? U R CRAZY. Just cuz you can't stop them doesn't mean that they shoudl be banned. I personally don't use those cards but still, out strategize them.

"Crazy? No I'm not... No, yes I am... (Omit - The rest doesn't fit in context here.)"

I could be crazy, but If I was, I probably wouldn't know I'm crazy, because If I recognized my craziness, I would be sane, because I can recognize that my brian is not functioning properly, but If I was crazy, my brain wouldn't function properly, so I wouldn't be able to recognize that I'm crazy. Kind of a Catch-22 right there.

Actually, I never said these cards were giving me any problems. In fact, none of the cards that cause me great grief are on this list. I'm quite capable of figuring out which cards best perform against other cards (It's basic math. 1 + 1 = 2, really), but that's half the problem right there.

These few cards pose the same threat (regardless of how big or small), and these are the same threats we end up facing in almost every deck we face. We all know how to handle these same threats, and we know which cards work best to combat these threats. So, we counter them using all the same strategies and never really have to think about new strtegies to handle problems, because we are only facing 1 problem over and over. I'd very much like to face other and varying threats, and I'd very much like to use other strategies against my opponent and to counter my opponent. I can use any cards I choose, but I can't control what my opponent's are all playing, so I'm stuck knowingly struggling while using something different, yet inferior, or I have to use the tried and tested answers to the same recuring situation.

And, I'll say this again: There are crappy outdated cards on this list, because: I have their bigger better upgrades on the list. Naturally, more people will use the next crappiest thing just because it is easier, rather than looking for new strategies which are more complicated or more situational.

Mirror Forced, Raigeki (Banned) -> Sakuretsu Armor, Bottomless Trap Hole, Widespread Ruin, and/or Smashing Ground (All 1 for 1 monster removal with no costs and limited activation requirements. All make any monster played in this game extremely disposable.)

Sakuretsu Armor, Bottomless Trap Hole, Widespread Ruin, and Smashing Ground (Banned or Limited) -> Max copies of previous allowed + Fissure, Hammer Shot, Trap Hole (All inferior to previous, but fundamentally the same effects), and Other Options. When given a choice between what is best and what is easy, most people will choose what is easy, depsite better options being available.

Sakuretsu Armor, Bottomless Trap Hole, Widespread Ruin, Smashing Ground, Fissure, Hammer Shot, and Trap Hole (Banned or Limited) -> Max copies of previous allowed + Other Options (EX: Curse of Anubis, Zero Gravity, Bottomless Shifting Sand, Tribute to the Doomed, Dark Core, Special Hurricane, Raigeki Break, etc.). Now players desperate for more removal, or players not wanting to run a few stray good cards plus a few stray leftovers from a time long ago will have no choice but to seek out other options. The other options aren't perfect cards, but they will get the job done providing they suit the deck they are placed in. It's the arguement, "People will just replace the banned cards with the next best thing. At some point down the line, there is no definitive next best thing. There become numerous options which will rock or suck depending on where they are run. This is the result I'm aiming for.

Dark Hole, Torrential Tribue, Cyber Jar, and Morphing Jar #2 are the last lingering threads of mass field removal right now. Of those 4, I didn't put Morphing Jar #2 on this list because players essentially get back the same number of monsters they lost, and those monsters are summoned in defense mode, so there isn't a cheap means to swarm and kill, whereas lucky Cyber Jar players can get a free win from what would have been a loss.

Magical Dimension, like Book of Moon and Enemy Controller, its power cannot be viewed by the card advantage it creates. It is versatille. Quickplays always have a versatility that makes them more powerful than any normal spell or trap could ever have, and when the effect is extremely good, the quickplay becomes broken. Magical Dimension can be removal, offense, and defense. It can also turn an empty field and 1 monster into several direct attacks just by having at least 1 extra monster in your hand. It is extremely powerful theme support, which is why everyone wants it so badly. Like Limiter Removal, it is worthy of being Semi-Limited for its versatility and abuseability alone.

Relinquished

12-06-2005, 10:08 PM

Smashing Ground? Needle Worm? Cyber Dragon? Sakeretsu?

WTF? U R CRAZY. Just cuz you can't stop them doesn't mean that they shoudl be banned. I personally don't use those cards but still, out strategize them.

It's not that they can't be dealt with. It's the fact that dealing with them means only being able to use around 10% of all of the monsters ever printed.

A lot of people are saying that the game would become a rush to see who could summon the biggest monster first. First of all, with this list there are still PLENTY of options for dealing with big monsters. Second, I think that if a player is willing to give up some resources to summon a big monster than that player should be rewarded for it, not punished. This could just be the rantings of an idealist though. :D

Romancer

12-07-2005, 03:21 PM

Bokuto_No_Ryu

12-07-2005, 04:48 PM

I believe someone mentioned somethign about Good Goblin House keeping having a broken combo. I'm not aware of the combo. What is it? Is it a 1TK combo? I took GGHK off the list, thinking it'd be nice to have a new form of draw power that appealed to some players, while not really being appealing to most CC decks (3 extra traps), but if there is a broken combo, I'd return it to where it was.

It's a long shot combo, but have 3 GGHK set, then activate and chain them to each other in unison. Finally, activate Emergency Provisions chained to the last one, and send them all to the graveyard.

When each GGHK resolves, there will be three GGHK in the graveyard that count towards their effect. So, you draw twelve cards, and return three to your deck.

pineapple4brains

12-07-2005, 06:17 PM

It's a long shot combo, but have 3 GGHK set, then activate and chain them to each other in unison. Finally, activate Emergency Provisions chained to the last one, and send them all to the graveyard.

When each GGHK resolves, there will be three GGHK in the graveyard that count towards their effect. So, you draw twelve cards, and return three to your deck.

You net a total of 5 extra cards because

-3 gghk
-1emergency
-3cards from hand
+12 cards

SuperJay

12-07-2005, 08:33 PM

L2theZ

12-07-2005, 08:39 PM

Interesting list,

You think theme-specific support like Magical Dimension should be restricted to 2, yet it's been out for YEARS in OCG and hasn't caused problems and it hasn't even hit the TCG yet. If anything, with the lack of token creation in TCG, Magical Dimension will be much weaker then in OCG.
And you don't think other type-specific support like Book of Life and especially The Warrior Returning Alive wouldn't need to be restricted?

Limiting type-specific support shouldn't be the focus of a ban list, but target the generic splashable stuff, cheap wins and such are not fun.

Cheap Win:
One kid at our store would consistantly get top 4 before October bans, he relied Ring + Barrel for cheap wins. Just as anyone got a big mon on the field, he cylinders the attack, then ring and barrel for the win.
After Oct. ban, Ring is gone and he only occasionally makes top 8.
Who's the bad player? The person who made effort to summon a larger/powerful monster, or the kid who relied on one cheap combo to win? Take away 1 card from his deck and he can't win anymore.

Limiting excessive monster destruction will reward the players who make the effort to make a deck with synergy and cards that support each other.

-SuperJay

The bad player in this situation is the opponet who knows he relies on this for the win and still walks into it. I mean, chain something to Ring and no combo.

Romancer

12-07-2005, 08:49 PM

Interesting list,

You think theme-specific support like Magical Dimension should be restricted to 2, yet it's been out for YEARS in OCG and hasn't caused problems and it hasn't even hit the TCG yet. If anything, with the lack of token creation in TCG, Magical Dimension will be much weaker then in OCG.
And you don't think other type-specific support like Book of Life and especially The Warrior Returning Alive wouldn't need to be restricted?

Limiting type-specific support shouldn't be the focus of a ban list, but target the generic splashable stuff, cheap wins and such are not fun.

Cheap Win:
One kid at our store would consistantly get top 4 before October bans, he relied Ring + Barrel for cheap wins. Just as anyone got a big mon on the field, he cylinders the attack, then ring and barrel for the win.
After Oct. ban, Ring is gone and he only occasionally makes top 8.
Who's the bad player? The person who made effort to summon a larger/powerful monster, or the kid who relied on one cheap combo to win? Take away 1 card from his deck and he can't win anymore.

Limiting excessive monster destruction will reward the players who make the effort to make a deck with synergy and cards that support each other.

-SuperJay
Good counter point. I suppose if you look at Magical Dimension vs. Book of Life, it really is dumb to semi-limit it and not Book of Life. Both give a free monster for swarming, just in a different way. I was thinking of it against Limiter Removal more for cheap 1TKs, but there is a big gap between their power. A 2 card 1TK is evilly wrong, but Magical dimension requires at least 3 cards. If people can deal with 3x BoL, Call, and Premature, then they'll be able to handle 3 Magical Dimesnions as well. Magicla Dimension is free from my list. Run wild you crazy unsupported Spellcasters. Your time is now.

specialhelper

12-07-2005, 09:37 PM

your band list band's to much things...this band list might make a lot of people stop playing or challenge them to make new decks

Relinquished

12-07-2005, 10:11 PM

your band list band's to much things...this band list might make a lot of people stop playing or challenge them to make new decks

Unfortunately, this list had to ban/restrict a lot of cards. If you only ban/restrict Smashing Ground, then everyone just throws in Fissure and nothing was accomplished. The only way to achieve progress in the fashion that this list suggests is to elimante all of the one for ones that people could fall back on.

Paladinseer007

12-07-2005, 10:18 PM

your band list band's to much things...this band list might make a lot of people stop playing or challenge them to make new decks

That is very vaild reasoning with the current list being about and all.

Bokuto_No_Ryu

12-08-2005, 07:26 AM

Okay, before any further debate takes place:

Band: A group of musicians

Banned: Something no longer allowed. <---The term some folks are looking for.

Romancer

12-08-2005, 11:15 PM

Here's something I found interesting. Thursday's card of the Day review; ExMinionOfDarkness wrote this (Significant text in bold and italics):

Zaborg the Thunder Monarch

Soul Control, meet your new best friend, as your old one just got kicked in the face.

We've all seen a million netdecks of Soul Control already. Soul exchange, tribute for Mobius, blow away 2. Soul exchange, tribute for Thestalos, smack your hand for 1. But oh wait, now there's Dark World! If you hit their hand, you could be in for a horrible swing of advantage the other way. People probably won't play Thestalos now...so they turn to this, as 3 Monarchs just aren't enough with that deck.

Zaborg is a 1:1 just like Thestalos, but you have to be more careful with this one. There has to be another monster for Zaborg to destroy, otherwise he ends up destroying himself. He's still second-best to Frosty but it's still a way to either get rid of an opposing card.

Without Soul Control, I say meh on this. Otherwise, we have enough ways to destroy monsters already, what with the 3 Smashings and the 3 Sakus, and the Widespread(s), and the Nobleman, and the Dark Hole, etc, etc...

Traditional: 1/5

Advanced cookie-cutter: 1/5

Advanced Soul Control: 3/5 (it's still the weaker of the Monarchs but is a necessary evil)

Doesn't this pretty much sum up what I've been trying to say about mass removal overshadowing all other cards. Here we have a card that the reviewers all agreed was decent, but then we have a reviewer point out there is no point in bothering with this when there is so much free and easy removal available?"

bmxbunnie17

12-09-2005, 08:45 AM

Cyber Jar why haft the time it helps your oppondent more than yourself

Dark Hole

Heavy Storm you want us wit no M/T Removal are you on crack

Sangan go aheah take our only scercher

Snatch Steal you big baby dust tornado stops this

Torrential Tribute why do wanna get rid of monster removal for

__________________________________________________ _______________

Bottomless Trap Hole, no helps againts phiniox/v-lord

Card of Safe Return does not need to be at one no one uses exodia lol

Creature Swap not that broken

Cyber Dragon/ D.D. Assailant agree with u on that

D.D. Warrior not that broken lol

Dark Factory of Mass Production, NO ONE USES EXODIA waste of space

Fissure why

Hammer Shot, why

Last Turn, NO ONE USES THIS DECK ANYMORE LOL

Needle Worm agree with you

Return From The Different Dimensionhello this does not need to be restricted

Sakuretsu Armor why restrict our line of defence

Smashing Ground see saku

Forceful Sentry agree with you

Trap Hole, why

Upstart Goblin, why

Wide Spread Ruin. not broken cause you cant choose your target

__________________________________________________ _______________

Deck Devastation Virus, agree with you kill burn

Enemy Controller, agree with you

Jinzo, you my friend are on crack

Magical Hammer, wtf why

Mask of Darkness,

Metamorphasis, put the crack pipe down already

Messenger of Peace, Royal Decree, Wave Motion Cannon.

i agree with you

Pemolis

12-09-2005, 03:26 PM

Here's something I found interesting. Thursday's card of the Day review; ExMinionOfDarkness wrote this (Significant text in bold and italics):

Doesn't this pretty much sum up what I've been trying to say about mass removal overshadowing all other cards. Here we have a card that the reviewers all agreed was decent, but then we have a reviewer point out there is no point in bothering with this when there is so much free and easy removal available?"

Your right Romancer.

Remember Romancer that some people, no matter how much logic, statistics, evidence and proof you put in front of them, will still believe that the Sun Revolves around the Earth.

But you are right Romancer.

L2theZ

12-09-2005, 07:40 PM

Here's something I found interesting. Thursday's card of the Day review; ExMinionOfDarkness wrote this (Significant text in bold and italics):

Doesn't this pretty much sum up what I've been trying to say about mass removal overshadowing all other cards. Here we have a card that the reviewers all agreed was decent, but then we have a reviewer point out there is no point in bothering with this when there is so much free and easy removal available?"

But once you ban the 3 Saku's, the 3 Samshing's and the whatever else you want ot ban someting else will take it's place. Then you along with Pemolis will be like "zomg that card is teh h4x we must ban it nowz!" If a card is outclassed why run it? Please give me an answer as to why we sould get rid of Smashing and such so Zaborg can get used.

Romancer

12-09-2005, 09:39 PM

But once you ban the 3 Saku's, the 3 Samshing's and the whatever else you want ot ban someting else will take it's place. Then you along with Pemolis will be like "zomg that card is teh h4x we must ban it nowz!" If a card is outclassed why run it? Please give me an answer as to why we sould get rid of Smashing and such so Zaborg can get used.
You will never here me say anything like what you typed (in bold), nor will you ever see me type something like what you typed (in bold). I don't even really understand what it is that you typed (in bold), but I've made this point several times in previous posts (if you'd read over the past 3 or 4 pages).

Yes, when one overly good card is banned/limited most people will replace it with the next best thing. This list includes every possible next best thing (1 for 1 costless monster removal and costless mass removal). From this point on, there is no definitive next best thing. You have to start choosing cards with effects and costs that will suit your deck. Zaborg will not work effectively in many decks, so he wouldn't get used in those decks, but other decks hurting for some new removal may find him to be just the thing they need. This list is meant to take away the cheap and easy and force players to start making intelligent deck design choices. Anyone can use costless removal in multiples, but when it's all gone, the skilled players will be the ones to find new solutions to their problems, and they will be doing that with the right cards for the job and for their deck, not spalshable replacements.

Paladinseer007

12-09-2005, 09:52 PM

Okay, before any further debate takes place:

Band: A group of musicians

Banned: Something no longer allowed. <---The term some folks are looking for.

Thank you for that little after school lesson, I believe we all learned alot from it. :p

Kill_switch

12-09-2005, 10:25 PM

Your list is awful, and if you want reasons, I'll give you them.

You want to get rid of crappy cards like Hammer Shot? Lol. That's awful. That could easily backfire. Just to be left in your hand completely useless due to your opponent having a weaker monster than you. It helps you gain no offensive advantage, it only helps you defend and perhaps, retaliate.

Getting out tribute monsters is way too easy nowadays. If you remove all the crappy monster removal/protection cards like Book of moon/Enemy Controllers/etc., wtf is this gonna be. A tribute monster war?

Once someone gets a huge monster out, it'll be very hard to eliminate it with your list as is.

The reason there's so much removal is because it's too easy to get huge monsters out right now.

And come on. "Book of moon - Too powerful with no cost"

Every card you listed was "too powerful", and you gave a very bland description of the card which did NOT circle the full effects of it.

Enemy controller isn't even a 1:1, it's a 1:0. It just puts the monster in defense mode.

Same with Book of Moon. Sure it can combo with flip effects, but what flip effects are worth it now? And HELLO, using a book of moon on YOUR OWN monster is a -1 card advantage. So let them combo I say, spend that book of moon, when my Jinzo is nailing his face, he'll wish he kept it.

Oh and Snatch Steal should be banned btw.

Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, Snatch Steal, Torrential Tribute. In this format those are the only 4 huge free ultimately powerful cards which makes this game about "who draws them first or at the right time". It's pure luck to draw heavy storm when your opponent got a hand full of magic/traps even in a 20 monster card deck.

It's all chance. Getting a huge advantage due to chance is wrong. It doesn't take a genius to play Heavy Storm when your opponent has 2+ set cards.

Snatch Steal can turn the game around much like Change of Heart, obviously the 2 are vastly different, but they can still manage, in the right situation, to destroy the game your opponent has worked on.

Lets say your opponent gets Dark Magician of Chaos out, you simply snatch steal it and beat him down for the rest of the game due to CHANCE, the horrible bad luck of your opponent NEVER drawing his M/T Destruction cards.

This has happened to me (but with Mobius and not DMoC). I play with 1 Typhoon, 1 Dust Torando, Heavy Storm, Breaker, 2 Mobius's, and a giant trunade.

Not drawing a single one of them or any of my monster destruction during a single game is unbelievable bad luck, but you know what? He won with snatch steal as Mobius was the strongest monster on the field the whole game, he just kept summoning smaller ones to peck away at me within 2-3 turns.

Snatch Steal is also used to instantly steal and tribute any opponents face up monsters, we all know face up's appear often, so it's not a harsh condition.

It can easily and for free drastically turn the game around. And you can't expect me to run more M/T destruction than I do, otherwise I'll be walking myself into a top-deck wall and losing frequently.
I find it funny how Romancer never responded to the only post that gives good reasons why his list is bad.

Relinquished

12-09-2005, 10:53 PM

I find it funny how Romancer never responded to the only post that gives good reasons why his list is bad.

I agree with Romancer's list, but I would like to understand the opposition a little more. Is it because of big monsters that people don't want these cards banned? If so, this list leaves plenty of options to deal with large monsters.

Romancer

12-10-2005, 12:04 AM

Actually, Kill_switch, I didn't respond to his arguement for 2 reasons. 1, I thought I had covered all these things pretty well, and 2, bmxbunnie17's grammer and spelling make me want to cry. But, just for you, I'll go over his arguements. That's how much I love ya!

bmxbunnie17: Cyber Jar why haft the time it helps your oppondent more than yourself

Response: Cyber Jar clears the field. Player A summons a big tribute monster, a nomi, a ritual, a fusion, or a swarm, and Player B screws him by setting a monster. What happens afterward, whether it be Player A getting 5 good cards or Player B getting 5 good cards, is irrelevent, since the damage has already been done. If Player B gets a godly swarm from the result and wins with it, it only adds insult to injury, because there was no skill invovled in his clearing away Player A's monster zone, nor was there any skill in winning. Cheap wins are not what Advanced is about, and neither should be free mass removal.

bmxbunnie17: Heavy Storm you want us wit no M/T Removal are you on crack

Response: I say no to drugs, and I say no to wanting to take away all your S/T removal. I only want 1 S/T destroying card from you. You are the one who sounds dependent on an abusive substance.

Heavy Storm is costless mass removal with a negligable drawback. We have Giant Trunade for reasonably balanced mass removal. It is costless to activate, but it requires captializing on an open field for 1 turn, and it does not destroy any S/Ts, while it loses 1 card of advantage.

bmxbunnie17: Sangan go aheah take our only scercher

Response: I think I will. This thing is only slightly less powerful than Witch of the Black Forest. Getting to search your deck for just about any monster in your deck just for losing a monster on your side of the field (regardless of how) is not skill oriented, and it hurts the opponent, since the only means of overcoming the move would have been to RFG it. This thing goes from over powered to broken when it is recycled by recursion.

bmxbunnie17: Snatch Steal you big baby dust tornado stops this

Response: Player's don't always have a set Dust Tornado to stop their opponent from ****** them with their own monster. That plus 1000 LP is negligable if they have stolen a monster that can do at least 1000 points of damage. This is free removal with the perk of giving you the monster your opponent just had.

bmxbunnie17: Torrential Tribute why do wanna get rid of monster removal for

Response: I'm going to wipe the field clear by summoning a monster. Or even better, I'm going to wipe the field clear by letting you summon a monster. A single card that robs the player with field advatage of their field and their summon. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

__________________________________________________ ______________

bmxbunnie17: Bottomless Trap Hole, no helps againts phiniox/v-lord

Response: Karma Cutter is being released in SOI. You have Dark Core now. You have a minimum of 1 of every D.D. Monster. You still have 1 available Bottomless Trap Hole. And, you have a maximum of 3 2000 attack V-Lords or 1 Phoenix to deal with from deck to deck. You're telling me you can't find a means to deal with 1 - 3 monsters that only appear in a few decks?

bmxbunnie17: Card of Safe Return does not need to be at one no one uses exodia lol

Response: Few people use Exodia, yet. With only 1 per deck, Manticores and other infinite loop decks will be hard pressed to pull off their infinite loops. It makes the possability of being beaten by an infinite loop much slimmer, and it won't feel like a cheap loss.

bmxbunnie17: Creature Swap not that broken

Response: ??? Take an opponent's good monster in exchange for your crappy searcher, and get 2 good monsters for the price of 1 card that's "not that broken." Yeah, you have a good point. Maybe I am smoking crack.

bmxbunnie17: Cyber Dragon/ D.D. Assailant agree with u on that

Response: Thank you for your approval on at least a few cards. I'm glad I'm not totally speaking in a foreign language.

bmxbunnie17: D.D. Warrior not that broken lol

Response: D.D. Warrior is 1 for 1 monster removal, no different from an Exiled Force. It's more powerful because it's effect is mandatory and it needn't go to the graveyard or be destroyed in battle. Also, it is the next best thing for the D.D. family. It can be set and you cna wait to RFG an opponent's monster when they attack, or you can suicide it. That's more versatile than any Man Eater Bug could ever hope to be.

bmxbunnie17: Dark Factory of Mass Production, NO ONE USES EXODIA waste of space

Response: You obviously don't use Exodia, so why worry about this. It's not like it effects you in some way, shape, or form. Don't forget, E-Heros are being supported in every release now, and some day, this card may come back and bite you. This is advantage on a stick for E-Heros, and it's faster and less restrictive than the trap Exodia once relied on.

bmxbunnie17: Fissure why

bmxbunnie17: Hammer Shot, why

Response: Next best thing. I'm taking away the costless cheap monster removal, and I'm being extra prudent by not letting you keep the lesser of them.

bmxbunnie17: Last Turn, NO ONE USES THIS DECK ANYMORE LOL

Response: Tell that to the players who have lost to it in the past and present. 3 card 1TK. That's not right.

bmxbunnie17: Needle Worm agree with you

Response: ...

bmxbunnie17: Return From The Different Dimensionhello this does not need to be restricted

Response: Just because everyone isn't abusing it today, doesn't mean they won't tomorrow. This card can always be activated. You'll never not be able to give up half of your life points. This card allows for 1TK swarms, and unlike Dimension Fusion, only you are getting monsters, which encourages D.D. abuse even more. Recently, people are starting to figure out 1 Bazoo + a RFTDD + 3 monsters in the graveyard = GG. Who knows if EOJ or future sets will have more D.D. monsters or another Bazoo?

bmxbunnie17: Sakuretsu Armor why restrict our line of defence

bmxbunnie17: Smashing Ground see saku

Response: You'll find new lines of defense, and necesity is the best motivator. Off the top of my head, there's: Negate Force, Waboku, Threatening Roar, Curse of Anubis, Zero Gravity, 1 Scape Goat, Raigeki Break... Yeah, you'll be fine without the above.

bmxbunnie17: Forceful Sentry agree with you

Repsonse: Hand disruption has been dealt enough crippling blows with Dark World, and D. Duo is banned, as it should be. Hand diruption lovers deserve a playable, but not broken deck.

bmxbunnie17: Trap Hole, why

Response: Next best thing.

bmxbunnie17: Upstart Goblin, why

Response: Exoida. This has been limited to 1 forever. Just last list, it was semi-limited, and I'm anticipating the next Konami SNAFU that will bond the millions of pieces of Exoida support into another FTK/1TK nightmare. Call this, preventitive measures.

bmxbunnie17: Wide Spread Ruin. not broken cause you cant choose your target

Response: Sakuretsu Armor's clone. If Saku goes, then people will pick up 3 of these in its place. I don't think so.

__________________________________________________ _______________

bmxbunnie17: Deck Devastation Virus, agree with you kill burn

Response: I don't know what it kills, but I do know it is not free mass removal. You have to pay it's activation, which is as it should be. Plus, every deck cannot abuse it.

bmxbunnie17: Enemy Controller, agree with you

Response: ...

bmxbunnie17: Jinzo, you my friend are on crack

Response: This is a test run. Jinzo has lsot a lot of power. He has Royal Decrees to compete with along with numerous other trap resilient monsters which don't share Jinzo's draw back of seeling both players. He also has only 1 Limiter Remover, and he's a tribute monster who has been overshadowed by Mobius. I think it's about time to test and see if he is really restrict worthy still, or is he the next Marauding Captain or V-Lord?

bmxbunnie17: Magical Hammer, wtf why

Response: Exoida. Unlike Reload, you choose the cards to ditch and the cards to keep. This is 3 more chances to draw out Exodia Pieces or a Toon Index, or a Jar of Greed, or a Dark Factory of Mass Production, or an Emissary of the Afterlife, or whatever the player needs to finish Exodia. The head is the part Exoida decks have a hard time getting, and this is 3 more chances to make a useless card into a head. Also, this lets Exodia decks run the counter card (Miracle Dig) to its worse fear (RFG) without worrying about it being dead weight.

bmxbunnie17: Mask of Darkness,

Response: ??? It's MOF for traps. Traps are slower, so this cna go down 1 peg from MOF. This and MOF are made broken by the cards they have to work with. 1 Broken card, even if limited, can become 3 broken cards if these 2 cards are left unchecked. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

bmxbunnie17: Metamorphasis, put the crack pipe down already

Response: TER is restricted, and Scientist is banned. The only thing this does on the list is make it impossible for numerous fusion monsters to see play. It's a deck type in itself, and only individual pieces are broekn. It's better to restrict the broken fusions than the entire deck type.

bmxbunnie17: Messenger of Peace, Royal Decree, Wave Motion Cannon. i agree with you

Response: Can I go to bed now, or do I need to stay up another hour to defend my opinion, when I'm just repeating the same thing over and over and over? If you didn't read every page, then please do so before posting, and don't accuse me of skipping over valid arguements when I've already addressed them.

Relinquished: I'll go into more detail on the original post when I have some extra time, but not today. I have work in 4 hours, and I'd like to go to bed.

Kill_switch

12-10-2005, 10:31 AM

You just turned what he said about the cards and completely changed it, thats not responding because half the things you said he said he didn't =/

B.A. Baracus

12-10-2005, 10:49 AM

No offense man but your list sucks. Nuff saidz here.

monsieurpopo

12-10-2005, 12:34 PM

I'm glad that you're not Kevin Tewart.

Romancer

12-10-2005, 02:39 PM

You just turned what he said about the cards and completely changed it, thats not responding because half the things you said he said he didn't =/
That would be incorrect. I hit the quote button, and just posted responses to everything he posted.

EDIT: I see what you're saying, now. It seems I responded to the wrong persons posts. And still, I could have sworn I had answered all of these things already, but if not, Then, I'll get to it shortly.

Your list is awful, and if you want reasons, I'll give you them.

You want to get rid of crappy cards like Hammer Shot? Lol. That's awful. That could easily backfire. Just to be left in your hand completely useless due to your opponent having a weaker monster than you. It helps you gain no offensive advantage, it only helps you defend and perhaps, retaliate.

Getting out tribute monsters is way too easy nowadays. If you remove all the crappy monster removal/protection cards like Book of moon/Enemy Controllers/etc., wtf is this gonna be. A tribute monster war?

Once someone gets a huge monster out, it'll be very hard to eliminate it with your list as is.

The reason there's so much removal is because it's too easy to get huge monsters out right now.

And come on. "Book of moon - Too powerful with no cost"

Every card you listed was "too powerful", and you gave a very bland description of the card which did NOT circle the full effects of it.

Enemy controller isn't even a 1:1, it's a 1:0. It just puts the monster in defense mode.

Same with Book of Moon. Sure it can combo with flip effects, but what flip effects are worth it now? And HELLO, using a book of moon on YOUR OWN monster is a -1 card advantage. So let them combo I say, spend that book of moon, when my Jinzo is nailing his face, he'll wish he kept it.

Oh and Snatch Steal should be banned btw.

Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, Snatch Steal, Torrential Tribute. In this format those are the only 4 huge free ultimately powerful cards which makes this game about "who draws them first or at the right time". It's pure luck to draw heavy storm when your opponent got a hand full of magic/traps even in a 20 monster card deck.

It's all chance. Getting a huge advantage due to chance is wrong. It doesn't take a genius to play Heavy Storm when your opponent has 2+ set cards.

Snatch Steal can turn the game around much like Change of Heart, obviously the 2 are vastly different, but they can still manage, in the right situation, to destroy the game your opponent has worked on.

Lets say your opponent gets Dark Magician of Chaos out, you simply snatch steal it and beat him down for the rest of the game due to CHANCE, the horrible bad luck of your opponent NEVER drawing his M/T Destruction cards.

This has happened to me (but with Mobius and not DMoC). I play with 1 Typhoon, 1 Dust Torando, Heavy Storm, Breaker, 2 Mobius's, and a giant trunade.

Not drawing a single one of them or any of my monster destruction during a single game is unbelievable bad luck, but you know what? He won with snatch steal as Mobius was the strongest monster on the field the whole game, he just kept summoning smaller ones to peck away at me within 2-3 turns.

Snatch Steal is also used to instantly steal and tribute any opponents face up monsters, we all know face up's appear often, so it's not a harsh condition.

It can easily and for free drastically turn the game around. And you can't expect me to run more M/T destruction than I do, otherwise I'll be walking myself into a top-deck wall and losing frequently.

AmebaFTW: Your list is awful, and if you want reasons, I'll give you them.

You want to get rid of crappy cards like Hammer Shot? Lol. That's awful. That could easily backfire. Just to be left in your hand completely useless due to your opponent having a weaker monster than you. It helps you gain no offensive advantage, it only helps you defend and perhaps, retaliate.

Response: Like I've said several times over, I'm getting rid of ALL costless 1:1 monster removal. This card constitutes as the next best thing, when Smashing Grounds are gone. I don't know how you can say it helps you get no offensive advantage, when that's all the card is, is field advantage. Free, destroy 1 opponent's monster when they have a bigger monster out than you... Yeah, that's an awful effect. It's such an awful effect, people are running 5 + cards in their deck that do the exact same thing. The only difference is right now, people are using the 1:1s that cannot backfire.

AmebaFTW: Getting out tribute monsters is way too easy nowadays. If you remove all the crappy monster removal/protection cards like Book of moon/Enemy Controllers/etc., wtf is this gonna be. A tribute monster war?

Once someone gets a huge monster out, it'll be very hard to eliminate it with your list as is.

The reason there's so much removal is because it's too easy to get huge monsters out right now.

Response: This is a blatant lie, and you know it! People run mass removal and free removal by the boat loads because they want to win as quickly as possible with the most minimal amount of effort possible. No one is afraid of being over powered by big monsters. They're afraid of having to play cards that don't give an immediate answer with no cost and no hand advantage.

Huge monsters will be as easy or as hard to deal with as the deck you build makes it. There are dozens of other removal cards that people won't touch becasue they aren't broken cheese. Guess what, if tribute monsters and nomis become a real burden, then people will have to rediscover that little 50 + card block of cards that was forgotten while they had easier cheaper answers.

AmebaFTW: And come on. "Book of moon - Too powerful with no cost"

Every card you listed was "too powerful", and you gave a very bland description of the card which did NOT circle the full effects of it.

Enemy controller isn't even a 1:1, it's a 1:0. It just puts the monster in defense mode.

Same with Book of Moon. Sure it can combo with flip effects, but what flip effects are worth it now? And HELLO, using a book of moon on YOUR OWN monster is a -1 card advantage. So let them combo I say, spend that book of moon, when my Jinzo is nailing his face, he'll wish he kept it.

Response: I put "too powerful" for any card that had more power in it's effect than a single card should have. Versatitlity is power. Enemy Controller has 2 average effects in a single card that can be activated during any player's turn, and even form your hand in response to other cards, during your turn. Few people will try other cards out when they can use a single card that for all practical purposes, is 2 - 3 cards in 1. Book of Moon is no different, and it is also a major piece in 1TK decks, such as a Needle Worm based deck out deck.

It's funny how most players will totally write a card off if it doesn't give immediate advantage, and yet, they will willingly run these 2 above cards in 3s (knowing full well, it loses advantage). Versatility is as powerful as advantage.

AmebaFTW: Oh and Snatch Steal should be banned btw.

Response: It was already added. Notice at the very bottom of my list, it says I may have missed/overlooked cards, so if you notice one, LMK, and I'd add it.

AmebaFTW: Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, Snatch Steal, Torrential Tribute. In this format those are the only 4 huge free ultimately powerful cards which makes this game about "who draws them first or at the right time". It's pure luck to draw heavy storm when your opponent got a hand full of magic/traps even in a 20 monster card deck.

Response: If you can't stand to lose broken cheese, go play Traditional. Advanced was suppose to be about the player's ability to play, not a race to luck draw the brokenest cards the player is allowed to play.

AmebaFTW: It's all chance. Getting a huge advantage due to chance is wrong. It doesn't take a genius to play Heavy Storm when your opponent has 2+ set cards.

Response: I'm not sure which side of the arguement this is on, or if this is an independent thought of the above paragraph. I have Heavy storm on the banned list, as it should be. You've already answered any repsonse I could have posted to defend this, too. "It doesn't take a genius to play Heavy Storm when your opponent has 2+ set cards.

AmebaFTW: Snatch Steal can turn the game around much like Change of Heart, obviously the 2 are vastly different, but they can still manage, in the right situation, to destroy the game your opponent has worked on.

Lets say your opponent gets Dark Magician of Chaos out, you simply snatch steal it and beat him down for the rest of the game due to CHANCE, the horrible bad luck of your opponent NEVER drawing his M/T Destruction cards.

This has happened to me (but with Mobius and not DMoC). I play with 1 Typhoon, 1 Dust Torando, Heavy Storm, Breaker, 2 Mobius's, and a giant trunade.

Not drawing a single one of them or any of my monster destruction during a single game is unbelievable bad luck, but you know what? He won with snatch steal as Mobius was the strongest monster on the field the whole game, he just kept summoning smaller ones to peck away at me within 2-3 turns.

Snatch Steal is also used to instantly steal and tribute any opponents face up monsters, we all know face up's appear often, so it's not a harsh condition.

It can easily and for free drastically turn the game around. And you can't expect me to run more M/T destruction than I do, otherwise I'll be walking myself into a top-deck wall and losing frequently.

Response: Snatch was added to the banned cards, and I'm aware of how cheap it is to lose to a Snatch Steal or Change of Heart.[/QUOTE]

Paladinseer007

12-10-2005, 07:18 PM

The game is already a lil dull why make it any duller.

I agree with the recent banlist it has become dull to the point that there is no fun in the game now. :D

robotvman

12-10-2005, 10:00 PM

Romancer

12-10-2005, 10:37 PM

what the hell is magical hammer? Exodia has no speed even if they are realsing all these support cards for it, it still sucks. Your list has allowed swarm decks to dominate. It's simple, any sort of deck that has a lot of searchers (GK spy, pyramid turtle, apprentice magician.... etc) in multipuls will win.... without sak. armors, you have no protection, with no bth, you cant remove ****....... this is a retarded list, if you use this list, trust me, you will hate it.

now you have wasted my time.....
You're welcome, but I really can't take all the credit. I'd like to take the time to thank the little guy for reading my list and having his time wasted. I really couldn't have done it with out you.

Although, I can assure, I wouldn't hate using this list. In fact, this is similar to the way I play now and have always played. I have this little thing called pride that prevents me from using cards I don't think should have ever been made. Likewise, I don't use cards I don't like, regardless of how godly their effects are.

I can assure you, from playing without these cards, these cards are not necessities.

Everyone pretty much agrees Exodia sucks. What I find funny, is how many people cry because I added 3 seldom played cards as preventitive measures to ensure that Exoida doesn't become a broken 1TK, when they don't care about Exoida or the cards. I think it's more about crying for the sake of crying than for any valid reason. In response to popular demand, I've released the whole whopping 3 cards I had limited or semi-limited from my list. Exoida's not a threat now, and hopefully he never will be.

Card of Safe Return -> Released
Dark Factory of Mass Production -> Released
Magical Hammer -> Released (Magical Hammer comes out in the DP packs and the Rock structure deck. It lets you shuffle any cards in your hand into your deck, then you draw the same number of shuffled cards. In other words, it is a godly hand recycle card that ditches any dead weight for new options without affecting the cards in your hand you wish to keep.)

Relinquished

12-10-2005, 10:39 PM

robotvman

12-11-2005, 01:06 PM

You're welcome, but I really can't take all the credit. I'd like to take the time to thank the little guy for reading my list and having his time wasted. I really couldn't have done it with out you.

Although, I can assure, I wouldn't hate using this list. In fact, this is similar to the way I play now and have always played. I have this little thing called pride that prevents me from using cards I don't think should have ever been made. Likewise, I don't use cards I don't like, regardless of how godly their effects are.

I can assure you, from playing without these cards, these cards are not necessities.

Everyone pretty much agrees Exodia sucks. What I find funny, is how many people cry because I added 3 seldom played cards as preventitive measures to ensure that Exoida doesn't become a broken 1TK, when they don't care about Exoida or the cards. I think it's more about crying for the sake of crying than for any valid reason. In response to popular demand, I've released the whole whopping 3 cards I had limited or semi-limited from my list. Exoida's not a threat now, and hopefully he never will be.

Card of Safe Return -> Released
Dark Factory of Mass Production -> Released
Magical Hammer -> Released (Magical Hammer comes out in the DP packs and the Rock structure deck. It lets you shuffle any cards in your hand into your deck, then you draw the same number of shuffled cards. In other words, it is a godly hand recycle card that ditches any dead weight for new options without affecting the cards in your hand you wish to keep.)

Magical Hammer is now known as Reload. Reload doesn't really help Exodia Decks at all. There is still no point in stopping Exodia because no matter how much support the deck gets, you can easily defeat it with hand destruction cards (card destruction, Don Zaloog, Silva, Spirit Reaper). And you can easily stop any deck running Exodia Necross with bottomless trap hole. Exodia will never be good until they realse a card that says: Select all the pieces of exodia in your deck, field, and Graveyard and add them to your hand.

Romancer

12-11-2005, 02:22 PM

Magical Hammer is now known as Reload. Reload doesn't really help Exodia Decks at all. There is still no point in stopping Exodia because no matter how much support the deck gets, you can easily defeat it with hand destruction cards (card destruction, Don Zaloog, Silva, Spirit Reaper). And you can easily stop any deck running Exodia Necross with bottomless trap hole. Exodia will never be good until they realse a card that says: Select all the pieces of exodia in your deck, field, and Graveyard and add them to your hand.
Reload = Reload (OCG)

Magical Hammer = Lucky Hammer (OCG)

They ARE 2 different cards with 2 different effects.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Exodia decks want Exodia in the graveyard. The sooner the better. They have Dark Factory to fetch 2 pieces from the grave instantly, Back Up soldier if they want 3 pieces instantly, and Monster Reincarnation for the head. If Painful Choice was around still, Exoida could easily be a FTK. Without Painful Choice, it's just a matter of milling and thinning your own deck until you have the 3 cards you need to win. 1 Head + 2 Dark FactoryBack Up Soldiers. Also, all but the head of Exoida is deck searchable by Emissary of the Afterlife and Apprentice Magician, and all Pieces are Fetchable by Sangan.

A well built Exoida deck only needs to fear super swarming aggro decks that cna kill them in 2 turns by attacking and RFG cards. Both of these weakness's Exoida has counters for.

All Exoida needs to be a major contender is a new version of Painful Choice, or 1 more weenie searcher (A la Sangan, Witch), or even a Wilderness Warrior Lady for Spellcasters (To rush out the head).

KuroKarasu

12-11-2005, 02:30 PM

Ojimo

12-11-2005, 02:50 PM

Romancer

12-11-2005, 03:21 PM

Wow, pathetic, apparently -everything- must be 2:1 trades with you. Why not limit Newdoria?! There's a 1:1! Or, or, or, ummm, hmmmm, PYRAMID TURTLE! It gets you Ryu Kokki like nothing! :O Or Brain Control!! 800 LP to get a monster for a potential cheap win! Dear GOD NOT THAT.

This list is assinine. 1:1 trades are not what needs to be limited.

OH! Almost forgot. Dark Necrofear should be limited! If destroyed you Snatch Steal! :o

Idiocy. Complete and utter idiocy.
I missed Newdoria and Brain Control. Thanks for the reminder. ;) . Although, I'm not sure you understand what costless 1:1 monster removal is.

1:1 Monster Removal
Effect: Activate card (may have a condition: face up, face down, when monster attacks, etc.)
Result: Destroy monster.

Neither Pyramid Turtle, nor Ryu Kokki have costless removal effects. Pyramid Turtle is a searcher, and Ryu Kokki has a bonus effect to destroy 2 specific types of monsters it battles, but you must run him (a tribute monster in your deck), you must sacrifice summon or use other cards to special summon him, and he must battle to get his effect, which is virtually useless since he can overpower most monsters in battle. It's a situational bonus.

Dark Necrofear is dead weight, costs 3 fiends from your graveyard, and has only decent stats and an okay effect. She cannot single handedly end the game by blowing up the world or killing a monster and doing a 3000 attack direct attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I have updated the fornt page, so take a look.

I don't think all of it needs to go, just all of it that is overpowered and overly abusable (1 spell/trap for 1 monster). That's the reason Man Eater Bug and Old Vindictive Magician aren't on here (Set monster incapable of doing anything but blocking an attack and getting its effect). 1 monster for 1 monster can be an overpowered effect, but it depends on how it gets that effect. A monster like Newdoria that needs to be destroyed in battle and go to the graveyard, and has stats so low it can't do anything more than die for it's cause, certainly isn't in the same boat as Exiled Froce of D.D. Assailant, one of which just needs to be summoned and can chain to its destruction when summoned, and the other which slaughters monsters as a semi-beatstick, then also destroys a monster that destroys it.

robotvman

12-11-2005, 05:33 PM

Reload = Reload (OCG)

Magical Hammer = Lucky Hammer (OCG)

They ARE 2 different cards with 2 different effects.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Exodia decks want Exodia in the graveyard. The sooner the better. They have Dark Factory to fetch 2 pieces from the grave instantly, Back Up soldier if they want 3 pieces instantly, and Monster Reincarnation for the head. If Painful Choice was around still, Exoida could easily be a FTK. Without Painful Choice, it's just a matter of milling and thinning your own deck until you have the 3 cards you need to win. 1 Head + 2 Dark FactoryBack Up Soldiers. Also, all but the head of Exoida is deck searchable by Emissary of the Afterlife and Apprentice Magician, and all Pieces are Fetchable by Sangan.

A well built Exoida deck only needs to fear super swarming aggro decks that cna kill them in 2 turns by attacking and RFG cards. Both of these weakness's Exoida has counters for.

All Exoida needs to be a major contender is a new version of Painful Choice, or 1 more weenie searcher (A la Sangan, Witch), or even a Wilderness Warrior Lady for Spellcasters (To rush out the head).

ever heard of banisher of light??? combine him with hand distruption and bye bye exodia. there is no point in banning exodia help, it sees little to no play, it is easily defeated.

Romancer

12-11-2005, 08:08 PM

ever heard of banisher of light??? combine him with hand distruption and bye bye exodia. there is no point in banning exodia help, it sees little to no play, it is easily defeated.
I removed the whole 3 cards of Exodia help that I had added to the list several posts ago, and I posted several pages back that I have no problems with Exodia decks, I just don't want to see them become an annoying 1TK should they get more support from a future set release.

Ever heard of Miracle Dig? Combine it with your opponent's thrown together Banisher of Light deck based on hand disruption, and you're back in business. Your opponent even kindly altered their deck in favor of non-aggresive strategies.

robotvman

12-11-2005, 10:37 PM

I removed the whole 3 cards of Exodia help that I had added to the list several posts ago, and I posted several pages back that I have no problems with Exodia decks, I just don't want to see them become an annoying 1TK should they get more support from a future set release.

Ever heard of Miracle Dig? Combine it with your opponent's thrown together Banisher of Light deck based on hand disruption, and you're back in business. Your opponent even kindly altered their deck in favor of non-aggresive strategies.

MIRACLE DIG??? HOW SITUATIONAL IS THAT CARD!!!! YOU'LL BE OUT OF LIFEPOINTS BY THE TIME YOU USE THAT!!!

Strategy Master

12-12-2005, 01:33 AM

Pemolis

12-12-2005, 05:53 AM

Edit: Really can't be bothered fighting with a pojo n00b. I've deleted the post because you really aren't worth the time of day.

Increase your sight of the game, and then try again because at the moment your insight sucks. Honestly.

SM

Wierd that you cannot be bothered when Romancer bothered with you. If you have a problem with the card lists, its your problem. If you do not want to make a stand on your position. Thats fine, don't post in this post then. Romancer has a good vision of the present situation of the game and can see that dancing around adding and removing from the banlist the same cards over and over again does not improve the game. In-fact by "stalling" and changing one or two cards every so often, and possibly unbanning a card or 2 from the list, they can only hope to push players away of the game. WHY!?!

Cause its boring to fight the same cards over... and over.... and over... and over.. and over... and over... and over again.

Doors to your left.

Strategy Master

12-12-2005, 01:24 PM

Wierd that you cannot be bothered when Romancer bothered with you.

Don't know the guy, never had a convo with him in my life, I'm working off his reasoning from this topic and that is it...

If you have a problem with the card lists, its your problem. If you do not want to make a stand on your position. Thats fine, don't post in this post then.

As one of the "pros" of this game who is often only found playing against the best in the world and judging at the biggest events, and knowing that UDE take most of the suggestions on what to ban and restrict in the game from Pojo it is my problem. People who are short sighted like this are not for the best in the game.

Romancer has a good vision of the present situation of the game and can see that dancing around adding and removing from the banlist the same cards over and over again does not improve the game. In-fact by "stalling" and changing one or two cards every so often, and possibly unbanning a card or 2 from the list, they can only hope to push players away of the game. WHY!?!

Because as was proved by this list which was made after complainted from the majority of the "Pojo Vet's" we've had little difference apart from the Skill levels dropping in the game. People that claim they have an idea and and know the game often don't have the first clue and want changes to help them improve, not the game itself.

Cause its boring to fight the same cards over... and over.... and over... and over.. and over... and over... and over again.

And you think a new banned list will stop that? If we lose one card it'll be replaced, by the "pros" at first as they own everyone with it, and then with the majority of people when they see it works... Cookie Cutters will ALWAYS exist and you're extremely naive if you believe banning one or two cards will change it.

Doors to your left.

Don't let it hit you on the way out, unless its to knock some sense into you.

Now lets look at the bn list:

"Tribe-Infecting Virus ruins theme decks, its a small cost that needs to be banned to let themes have a chance"

Errm, you get your wish, a card that finally requires some skill as Sinister was banned is banned because people said it was too powerful and it destroyed theme decks.

Now lets look at the top tier decks in this format at the moment:

Chaos Control (Flip Flap Control)
Warrior Toolbox
Aggro Decks (Mainly Remove from Play)

Still no theme deck winning major events that didn't win events in the last format. The Asian game because of the lack of Sinister Tribe is hardly played anymore.

"Banning Mindless one for ones are ruining the game"

No, simple. One for ones are always going to exist, if we get rid of them we ruin the game, as we'd have to result in cards that lose advantage meaning less skill and nearly no way to get back into the game if you're losing. There are so many one for ones, but if we lose them you've already lost if you don't take the lead as you can't get back into the game.

Thousand Knives is a great card, won't ever be used as often as Smashing Ground because its situational, but its that situational part that means it isn't used regardless of the fact it is in fact better then Smashing Ground.

The reason for mindless one for ones are so you haven't already lost before the game has hit the third turn. Anyone that believes differently needs to be shot.

A game shouldn't be desided within the first turn or so of the game... Lets take your idea:

Dark Magician Deck A runs Dark Magic Attack and Thousand Knives
Dark Magician Deck B runs Smashing Ground, Nobleman of Crossout and Heavy Storm

Both decks get an identical opening hand:

Dark Magician A: Skilled Dark Magician, Dark Magic Attack, Thosand Knives, Thousand Knives, Pyramid Turtle, Dark Magician of Chaos
Dark Magician B: Skilled Dark Magician, Heavy Storm, Smashing Ground, Nobleman of Crossout, Pyramid Turtle and Dark Magician of Chaos

Both decks face a Warrior Toobox (A Theme deck so still allowed by the opponents cards)

Warrior Deck gets an opening hand of: Mystic Swordsman Level 2, Axe of Despair, Rush Recklessly, Zombyra the Dark and Don Zaloog.

Warrior deck opens the duel with the first move:

Summons Don Zaloog, Equips it with Axe and sets Rush Reck.

Dark Magician A: Now they have the choice of either setting Pyramid Turtle and having it destroyed to summon either Double Coston into the field or Spirit Reaper for defence. The rest of the deck uses situational cards that requires Dark Magician to be on the field so anything but monsters will be a bad top deck. In an attempt to try and get back into the game, the player sets Pyramid Turtle and Bluffs a Thousand Knives.

Warrior Deck draws into Tailor of the Fickle and summons Mystic Level Two and attacks Pyramid, then with Don discarding the hand further. S/He then sets Tailor and ends.

Dark Magician A: Now out of options goes to destroy the level two, meeting Tailor and Rush losing the game....

Bit of an extreme example but both decks are running situational cards and strong ones that suit the theme the guy is after.

Now lets try it with the second Dark Magician Deck:

Warrior Deck gets an opening hand of: Mystic Swordsman Level 2, Axe of Despair, Rush Recklessly, Zombyra the Dark and Don Zaloog.

Warrior deck opens the duel with the first move:

Summons Don Zaloog, Equips it with Axe and sets Rush Reck.

Dark Magician B: Has the option of summoning Skilled Dark Magician then playing Smashing and Heavy Storm. Rush might be chained leaving the attack higher, but only for a single turn. Skilled Dark Magician now has enough Counters to become Dark Magician. With Nobleman of Crossout in the Hand if the Warrior Deck makes choice to set a monster next turn it has a direct attack at the life points.

That exact reasoning there is why this whole idea of banning none situational cards should be out of the question.

It means the games are decided not only by the luck of the draw, but by the opening hand before the duel has even started. There is no luck that the Dark Magician A deck had less then B, but it hs lost the match before the game has started, just because all its cards were too situational to work out. Theme decks I fully suport, but a game that will be over before the draw is made EVERY duel I don't.

That is what I mean by a lack of thought going into this, people are too busy complaining they can't win because of these cards, it will triple if we remove them as we remove any chance of getting back into the game...

At some point people need to realise just because they are annoying, or are often seen doesn't mean they should be banned. Again this is one of the reasons Pojo vets are looked down on, as they whine to much without thinking about how it would really effect the game. Cookie Cutter will always exist because players can't be original, and before you mention it, I'm one of those "original" players I've never turned up to an event with a CC deck, turning up with "original" (different because originality can't exist with a small card pool) deck ideas.

As I said I fully support people who want to be different and not conform to the CC as I dislike it more then most of you guys period... Having being played since the release of the Japanese game, I know how the system works, and I understand how changes effect the game, something most people don't.

So yes, the whole idea of banning mindless one for ones is a poor idea, unless you want a game of pure luck and who can draw a better hand.... Because in that format ANYONE that intends to win will run the CC deck as anything situational won't win at all.

SM

Pemolis

12-12-2005, 02:33 PM

Don't know the guy, never had a convo with him in my life, I'm working off his reasoning from this topic and that is it...

As one of the "pros" of this game who is often only found playing against the best in the world and judging at the biggest events, and knowing that UDE take most of the suggestions on what to ban and restrict in the game from Pojo it is my problem. People who are short sighted like this are not for the best in the game.

Because as was proved by this list which was made after complainted from the majority of the "Pojo Vet's" we've had little difference apart from the Skill levels dropping in the game. People that claim they have an idea and and know the game often don't have the first clue and want changes to help them improve, not the game itself.

And you think a new banned list will stop that? If we lose one card it'll be replaced, by the "pros" at first as they own everyone with it, and then with the majority of people when they see it works... Cookie Cutters will ALWAYS exist and you're extremely naive if you believe banning one or two cards will change it.

Don't let it hit you on the way out, unless its to knock some sense into you.

Now lets look at the bn list:

"Tribe-Infecting Virus ruins theme decks, its a small cost that needs to be banned to let themes have a chance"

Errm, you get your wish, a card that finally requires some skill as Sinister was banned is banned because people said it was too powerful and it destroyed theme decks.

Now lets look at the top tier decks in this format at the moment:

Chaos Control (Flip Flap Control)
Warrior Toolbox
Aggro Decks (Mainly Remove from Play)

Still no theme deck winning major events that didn't win events in the last format. The Asian game because of the lack of Sinister Tribe is hardly played anymore.

"Banning Mindless one for ones are ruining the game"

No, simple. One for ones are always going to exist, if we get rid of them we ruin the game, as we'd have to result in cards that lose advantage meaning less skill and nearly no way to get back into the game if you're losing. There are so many one for ones, but if we lose them you've already lost if you don't take the lead as you can't get back into the game.

Thousand Knives is a great card, won't ever be used as often as Smashing Ground because its situational, but its that situational part that means it isn't used regardless of the fact it is in fact better then Smashing Ground.

The reason for mindless one for ones are so you haven't already lost before the game has hit the third turn. Anyone that believes differently needs to be shot.

A game shouldn't be desided within the first turn or so of the game... Lets take your idea:

Dark Magician Deck A runs Dark Magic Attack and Thousand Knives
Dark Magician Deck B runs Smashing Ground, Nobleman of Crossout and Heavy Storm

Both decks get an identical opening hand:

Dark Magician A: Skilled Dark Magician, Dark Magic Attack, Thosand Knives, Thousand Knives, Pyramid Turtle, Dark Magician of Chaos
Dark Magician B: Skilled Dark Magician, Heavy Storm, Smashing Ground, Nobleman of Crossout, Pyramid Turtle and Dark Magician of Chaos

Both decks face a Warrior Toobox (A Theme deck so still allowed by the opponents cards)

Warrior Deck gets an opening hand of: Mystic Swordsman Level 2, Axe of Despair, Rush Recklessly, Zombyra the Dark and Don Zaloog.

Warrior deck opens the duel with the first move:

Summons Don Zaloog, Equips it with Axe and sets Rush Reck.

Dark Magician A: Now they have the choice of either setting Pyramid Turtle and having it destroyed to summon either Double Coston into the field or Spirit Reaper for defence. The rest of the deck uses situational cards that requires Dark Magician to be on the field so anything but monsters will be a bad top deck. In an attempt to try and get back into the game, the player sets Pyramid Turtle and Bluffs a Thousand Knives.

Warrior Deck draws into Tailor of the Fickle and summons Mystic Level Two and attacks Pyramid, then with Don discarding the hand further. S/He then sets Tailor and ends.

Dark Magician A: Now out of options goes to destroy the level two, meeting Tailor and Rush losing the game....

Bit of an extreme example but both decks are running situational cards and strong ones that suit the theme the guy is after.

Now lets try it with the second Dark Magician Deck:

Warrior Deck gets an opening hand of: Mystic Swordsman Level 2, Axe of Despair, Rush Recklessly, Zombyra the Dark and Don Zaloog.

Warrior deck opens the duel with the first move:

Summons Don Zaloog, Equips it with Axe and sets Rush Reck.

Dark Magician B: Has the option of summoning Skilled Dark Magician then playing Smashing and Heavy Storm. Rush might be chained leaving the attack higher, but only for a single turn. Skilled Dark Magician now has enough Counters to become Dark Magician. With Nobleman of Crossout in the Hand if the Warrior Deck makes choice to set a monster next turn it has a direct attack at the life points.

That exact reasoning there is why this whole idea of banning none situational cards should be out of the question.

It means the games are decided not only by the luck of the draw, but by the opening hand before the duel has even started. There is no luck that the Dark Magician A deck had less then B, but it hs lost the match before the game has started, just because all its cards were too situational to work out. Theme decks I fully suport, but a game that will be over before the draw is made EVERY duel I don't.

That is what I mean by a lack of thought going into this, people are too busy complaining they can't win because of these cards, it will triple if we remove them as we remove any chance of getting back into the game...

At some point people need to realise just because they are annoying, or are often seen doesn't mean they should be banned. Again this is one of the reasons Pojo vets are looked down on, as they whine to much without thinking about how it would really effect the game. Cookie Cutter will always exist because players can't be original, and before you mention it, I'm one of those "original" players I've never turned up to an event with a CC deck, turning up with "original" (different because originality can't exist with a small card pool) deck ideas.

As I said I fully support people who want to be different and not conform to the CC as I dislike it more then most of you guys period... Having being played since the release of the Japanese game, I know how the system works, and I understand how changes effect the game, something most people don't.

So yes, the whole idea of banning mindless one for ones is a poor idea, unless you want a game of pure luck and who can draw a better hand.... Because in that format ANYONE that intends to win will run the CC deck as anything situational won't win at all.

SM

Big post but I will only post a short paragraph as a reply to the entire thing.

As a "Pro" and as a "Skilled" player who uses "there will always be a CC" as their arguement... whats the alternative? We cannot wait for made up theme based cards that will someday happen, maybe... You have argued against the whole point of Romancer's banlist, as well as the concepts behind why such a list was created, but gave no solution or alternative to that list, which would improve the issues of the game beyond what they already are. So is your answer, lets limit smashing, limit sakuesku, bring back mirror force, and its balanced? If it is, then you have alot of mindless friends on these boards who will agree with that increasingly cheap arguement. If it is not, then what is your answer for:

1) the present problems of this game and banlist, because I believe we can ALL agree that there are problems with the present banlist and way people play this game at this time.

2) the present abuse of destruction based 1 for 1 cards?

3) the present issue of massive amounts of generic based cards?

4) and the issue of carbon copy decklists?

L2theZ

12-12-2005, 02:38 PM

1) the present problems of this game and banlist, because I believe we can ALL agree that there are problems with the present banlist and way people play this game at this time.

2) the present abuse of destruction based 1 for 1 cards?

3) the present issue of massive amounts of generic based cards?

4) and the issue of carbon copy decklists?

1) Bring back Trad, or even the last advanced format that, would be soo much better than this format.

2) Deal with it, it's keeping the game alive right now

3) Deal with it, it's keeping the game alive right now

4) Deal with it, themes don't win

Pemolis

12-12-2005, 02:47 PM

1) Bring back Trad, or even the last advanced format that, would be soo much better than this format.

2) Deal with it, it's keeping the game alive right now

3) Deal with it, it's keeping the game alive right now

4) Deal with it, themes don't win

1) Traditional Exists. GO PLAY IT

2) We have been dealing with it, and we all hate it. Thats why we want it CHANGED!!! Even you said "Lets go back", so obviously Something is wrong with it to an extent you believe it warrants Going back to a different list.

3) Generic Cards Killed 95% of the cards that even Exist IN the game. You know that.

4) Most decks that don't exist because of Generic Themeless cards could exist and could be competative and interesting and NEW if themeless cards Did not Exist.

Limiter. Please save me the headache of rewriting the entire argument again.

Eitherway, I am taking this post off track from Romancer's ideas. My appologies Romancer. If you want to "Argue" with me, I have my own thread with my own idea's. We can argue/debate there. I won't steer Romancer's thread towards my own directions.

Strategy Master

12-12-2005, 02:52 PM

The answer too all your questions can be answered in the following few sentences: The problem with the game is the players not the game itself. So long as it is competative they will not have a solution. A soloution isn't achivable because Konami are limited as to what they can create.

Last format any "pro" will tell you was the skilled format over this one, yet although we had Smashing and Sak's played in ones or twos they were by no means abused as they are now. Cyber Dragon's weren't broken, neither were RotA, and this is because Goats made sure they weren't so strong... We had a perfect Meta Deck and a Perfect Anti-Meta deck, and both had high variations, while now we've got none of them. We've a Meta Deck (Warrior and Flip Flap and Anti-Meta RFP Aggro).

2) Again its a case of players, we're human we play to win, if we want to stop them we need to bring out cards that give similar effect that work with themes that make them worth playing.... As I said Konami are limited in what they can do, and as such this won't be done. I mean lets look at RotA and Toon Table of Contents.... Overall TToC is more broken then RotA, but it is hardly able to match up as RotA has the rest of the support from Warriors, while Toons have little playable support.

3) Again it can't be changed until Konami bring out more cards that work for themes... As much as I dislike to say it VS is doing well at this as it doesn't (or didn't last time I spoke to a "pro" at the game have a single top tier deck, all the decks stood a chance.... Meaning high variation in the decks, as people didn't have to worry about the fact your deck wasn't strong enough to beat a cc.

4) CC are a players problem not Konami.... Until players start to improve their mindset and remember this is a game and it is for fun, CC will always exist... Lets say we ban all genetic cards, Gravekeepers (prob) would become the next CC deck, as its high support that works well without needing most of the genetic cards. I could be wrong about the deck type, but Gravekeepers would become a CC because it works well without being Situational.

The problem with the game ISN'T the ban list, its the players playing it. Konami nor UDE can control how the players play on the whole, though they may be able to restrict cards and such, the players will still got right to what wins, its human nature.

Until Konami can bring out more support that makes everything playable, without being too situational there is no way to improve the game, just use the ban list to help keep players happy... This list favours the weaker players as luck is a big part of the game, last format the only real luck was if Pot Graceful and Duo was drawn quickly, which would leave the opponent at a disadvantage, but one a skilled player could return from.

So to answer your question, until we get better sets that support everything and put everything on level terms the game CAN'T improve.

SM

Rudoku

12-12-2005, 02:54 PM

1) Traditional Exists. GO PLAY IT

That's a damned lie and you know it. No one takes it seriously, and there's no support for it. Even Pokemon's traditional has more support.

Kensh0rz

12-12-2005, 02:55 PM

2) We have been dealing with it, and we all hate it. Thats why we want it CHANGED!!! Even you said "Lets go back", so obviously Something is wrong with it to an extent you believe it warrants Going back to a different list.

Sweeping generalisations make baby Jesus cry.

4) Most decks that don't exist because of Generic Themeless cards could exist and could be competative and interesting and NEW if themeless cards Did not Exist.

They really couldn't. That's just a myth perpetuated by what I'd call the delusions of a few select duellists. Nothing gets more competitive with a banned list. Everything gets less competitive, just some things more than others.

It wouldn't be interesting, it would be slow, mindless, and dull. Oh, and still very generic. That's never going away with this solution. All you do is change what those generic cards are.

I don't feel any particular need to analyze this list; something about the way every decision is simply justified with "it's too powerful" (with any number of exclamation marks and ones following) irks me. And the complete failure to address problems the removal for all those 1-for-1 cards will create means it won't achieve what it set out to any more than our present list. Although really, it's not like it could - a forbidden list on its own will never sove this games problems.

L2theZ

12-12-2005, 03:52 PM

1) Traditional Exists. GO PLAY IT

2) We have been dealing with it, and we all hate it. Thats why we want it CHANGED!!! Even you said "Lets go back", so obviously Something is wrong with it to an extent you believe it warrants Going back to a different list.

3) Generic Cards Killed 95% of the cards that even Exist IN the game. You know that.

4) Most decks that don't exist because of Generic Themeless cards could exist and could be competative and interesting and NEW if themeless cards Did not Exist.

Limiter. Please save me the headache of rewriting the entire argument again.

Eitherway, I am taking this post off track from Romancer's ideas. My appologies Romancer. If you want to "Argue" with me, I have my own thread with my own idea's. We can argue/debate there. I won't steer Romancer's thread towards my own directions.

Trad dosen't get prize support, so I ahve no choice but to play advanced

You're useing the term "all" pretty loosley, keep that in mind. I never said anything was wrong with Smashing Ground, it's a balanced card, I was suggest we go back to a format with more skill.

If they kill most of the cards why are you complaining that they kill your theme decks, I don't go a throw a temper tantrum when a Smashing Ground kills a D.D. Assaliant of mine

No, there will be a cookie, and it will beat the tar out of most theme decks out there, and should any list like this go into effect most of the Yu-Gi-Oh community would quit, keep that in mind as well.

None of you has yet to give me a reason as to why we need theme decks to be competitive.

Romancer

12-12-2005, 05:19 PM

Your arguments intrigue me. I'd like to know more.

As one of the "pros" of this game who is often only found playing against the best in the world and judging at the biggest events, and knowing that UDE take most of the suggestions on what to ban and restrict in the game from Pojo it is my problem. People who are short sighted like this are not for the best in the game.

Facts firsts, feelings later. I'm more of a casual player, and a loner. I go to tournaments once in a while, but I quickly lose the taste for dueling while there. There is something about seeing the same cards over and over that causes me to lose my appetite to compete and attempt to have fun at the same time. It's like, "This again? I saw this last time I came, and the time before that, and the time before that..."

You're a pro and a major judge. And, I am more or less a short sighted newb who hasn't learned anything since LOB days. So, maybe you can help guide this proverbial horse to the watering hole. Why does this game mass release hundreds of cards a year for players who want to play with lots of cards and variety (player's like me), while the torunament scene caters only to players who are content playing with the same 100 cards until the end of eternity so long as they continue to win tournaments? I'm no Konami rep, but I'm pretty sure those 55 cards of set filler in each set are meant to actually be played by someone.

I enjoy playing against my friend when we can get together (we both work, he's married and has a kid). When we get together, we both use different decks. Even though we run many decks, his play style doesn't much change from deck to deck, and he does not get the most from the deck (He's a busy man, afterall; managing a store and a family, etc. His time for contemplating game strategies is limited). I have more time on my hands, and I like playing people with different styles than how he plays. I like a good challenge as well. So, the place to go would naturally be a tournament scene where lots of people with the same interest will gather to play, right? Wrong! Tournament scenes are stifled, if not stagnant ponds for creativity. There is minimal to no variety, and skill differences seem irrelevent after the 4th carbon copy of the same deck. So, who's wrong here? Is it me, for wanting to play some new decks, have some fun, use some interesting cards, expect to win a few games, and expect to lose a few games? Or, is it the torunament scene that has seemingly forgotten the best reason for playing this game? It's almost irrelevent though, isn't it: Who's right or who's wrong? It doesn't seem to factor into the minds of PROs. In their eyes I want something different from the game than top 8, so I'm a newb, and the concensus is, newbs aren't worth their weight in dead hamsters (or in pojo standards, dead kittens).

When I look at each new ban list, I hope to find the cards that are played too much, not because they are good, but becasue they are too good. I'm finding dozens of cards that are functional and effective when I'm deck building, but people are running numerous copies of all the cards that are better by a long shot. There are no cards in between the cards I like using, testing, and playing agaisnt, and the cards I have to play against if I want to play beyond my tiny little pond. There is like a 2 - 3 tier difference between what's good in Yu-Gi-Oh and what's too good, and when I see decks loaded down with 2 or 3 copies of all the too good cards, I can't help feeling like this game hates all players who wish they could use their favorite cards or play against something new once in a blue moon.

Other things I expect to see on the list are cheap win conditons and cards that leave one player cheated. When a player ends the game in the first few turns in a manner that the opponent would have had to draw a specific tech card to survive it, then that is an issue that needs to be addressed immediately, not something to wait until it is a rampant problem that most every player is screaming about.

Aside from those 2 things, I want 1 more thing from a ban list that is meant to make the game more playable for players who want to actually play the game with other cards. It's a little thing called foresight. They take away cards knowing full well what will replace them. It's pointless to ban 1 card and leave 3 carbon copies of that card unchecked in its place. If the ban list was meant to make the game more of a game and less of a test of who has the greatest luck when drawing cards, then why take away a card that they obviously view as harmful to the game, while leaving it's mini-clones behind to do the same job?

I made "My Ideal Banlist", with the cards I viewed as the cards that were too powerful for a single card. These are the cards I see as the biggest deterents to trying new things. Costless mass removal is too good an effect. Field clearing without a cost is too powerful an effect. Along with a few stray odds and ends, such as monsters that are unbalanced between cost and return. Maybe if I was a pro or a judge, I'd be able to see that these aren't real problems what so ever, but I'm not a pro or a judge. I'm just a newb who shows up at a few random tournaments with something different and hoping to play some interesting games. Apparently, when people see something used and abused, their opinion's based on experiences don't become vaild until they have achieved a status symbol.

"Banning Mindless one for ones are ruining the game"

No, simple. One for ones are always going to exist, if we get rid of them we ruin the game, as we'd have to result in cards that lose advantage meaning less skill and nearly no way to get back into the game if you're losing. There are so many one for ones, but if we lose them you've already lost if you don't take the lead as you can't get back into the game.

Thousand Knives is a great card, won't ever be used as often as Smashing Ground because its situational, but its that situational part that means it isn't used regardless of the fact it is in fact better then Smashing Ground.

The reason for mindless one for ones are so you haven't already lost before the game has hit the third turn. Anyone that believes differently needs to be shot.

A game shouldn't be desided within the first turn or so of the game... Lets take your idea:

Dark Magician Deck A runs Dark Magic Attack and Thousand Knives
Dark Magician Deck B runs Smashing Ground, Nobleman of Crossout and Heavy Storm

Both decks get an identical opening hand:

Dark Magician A: Skilled Dark Magician, Dark Magic Attack, Thosand Knives, Thousand Knives, Pyramid Turtle, Dark Magician of Chaos
Dark Magician B: Skilled Dark Magician, Heavy Storm, Smashing Ground, Nobleman of Crossout, Pyramid Turtle and Dark Magician of Chaos

Both decks face a Warrior Toobox (A Theme deck so still allowed by the opponents cards)

Warrior Deck gets an opening hand of: Mystic Swordsman Level 2, Axe of Despair, Rush Recklessly, Zombyra the Dark and Don Zaloog.

Warrior deck opens the duel with the first move:

Summons Don Zaloog, Equips it with Axe and sets Rush Reck.

Dark Magician A: Now they have the choice of either setting Pyramid Turtle and having it destroyed to summon either Double Coston into the field or Spirit Reaper for defence. The rest of the deck uses situational cards that requires Dark Magician to be on the field so anything but monsters will be a bad top deck. In an attempt to try and get back into the game, the player sets Pyramid Turtle and Bluffs a Thousand Knives.

Warrior Deck draws into Tailor of the Fickle and summons Mystic Level Two and attacks Pyramid, then with Don discarding the hand further. S/He then sets Tailor and ends.

Dark Magician A: Now out of options goes to destroy the level two, meeting Tailor and Rush losing the game....

Bit of an extreme example but both decks are running situational cards and strong ones that suit the theme the guy is after.

Now lets try it with the second Dark Magician Deck:

Warrior Deck gets an opening hand of: Mystic Swordsman Level 2, Axe of Despair, Rush Recklessly, Zombyra the Dark and Don Zaloog.

Warrior deck opens the duel with the first move:

Summons Don Zaloog, Equips it with Axe and sets Rush Reck.

Dark Magician B: Has the option of summoning Skilled Dark Magician then playing Smashing and Heavy Storm. Rush might be chained leaving the attack higher, but only for a single turn. Skilled Dark Magician now has enough Counters to become Dark Magician. With Nobleman of Crossout in the Hand if the Warrior Deck makes choice to set a monster next turn it has a direct attack at the life points.

That exact reasoning there is why this whole idea of banning none situational cards should be out of the question.

It means the games are decided not only by the luck of the draw, but by the opening hand before the duel has even started. There is no luck that the Dark Magician A deck had less then B, but it hs lost the match before the game has started, just because all its cards were too situational to work out. Theme decks I fully suport, but a game that will be over before the draw is made EVERY duel I don't.

That is what I mean by a lack of thought going into this, people are too busy complaining they can't win because of these cards, it will triple if we remove them as we remove any chance of getting back into the game...

At some point people need to realise just because they are annoying, or are often seen doesn't mean they should be banned. Again this is one of the reasons Pojo vets are looked down on, as they whine to much without thinking about how it would really effect the game. Cookie Cutter will always exist because players can't be original, and before you mention it, I'm one of those "original" players I've never turned up to an event with a CC deck, turning up with "original" (different because originality can't exist with a small card pool) deck ideas.

As I said I fully support people who want to be different and not conform to the CC as I dislike it more then most of you guys period... Having being played since the release of the Japanese game, I know how the system works, and I understand how changes effect the game, something most people don't.

So yes, the whole idea of banning mindless one for ones is a poor idea, unless you want a game of pure luck and who can draw a better hand.... Because in that format ANYONE that intends to win will run the CC deck as anything situational won't win at all.

SM

I do not understand this arguement. Under the exact same condition, if 2 players do the exact same thing with different cards, the result is, the player with situational cards is the player who will lose? Why are two identical decks with different cards even playing the same style. I'd imagine a player use to using their situational cards knows when to hold back, and when to go all out. I'm even baffled by this conclusion that banning/limiting free 1 for 1s will somehow lead to games being lost before a player draws. Everyone gets bad hands from time to time with or without free removal, and it doesn't gurantee losses.

I'm even more baffled with this notion that costless removal is used as a necessity? It isn't. It's used to make a situation easy. Like you said, "With Nobleman of Crossout in the Hand if the Warrior Deck makes choice to set a monster next turn it has a direct attack at the life points." NOT, "With Nobleman of Crossout in hand, I'm ready and don't have to be afraid of losing my field to a set Cyber Jar, Legendary Jujutsu Master, etc."

Costless removal is a quick easy solution to any monster that stands between your monsters and your opponet's life points. Costed removal is capable of the same thing, but it punishes the player who squanders resources for free shots on their opponet's life points. 1, player's are inclined to use at will, since they have 10 replacements in their deck for it, and 1, players are inclined to reserve for good oppurtunities and times of necessity because they cannot afford to waste what they have.

Also, I never once said, this ban list is to make theme decks rule or to kill of CC. Dark Magician deck can run any type of removal it wants, so long as its cards aren't unbalanced. Thousand Knives is balanced by the necessity of a difficult to summon monster, but it is not the only option. I'd use a Tribute of the Doomed over Thousand Knives anyday. What people won't do, is run any card with a heavy cost like Tribute to the Doomed or a card with a situational activation requirement as steep as needing a Dark Magician on the field, when there are so many wonderful options that only require, "activate. Kill face-up monster."

Strategy Master

12-12-2005, 05:57 PM

You don't understand the argument of Heavy Storm, and Smashing Ground over Dark Magic Attack and Smashing Ground....

Hmm, you come up with a rather long post, though not exactly one that will get far, but fair enough for trying it.

Rather then going for long reply I'll keep it short and sweet:

You've got friend(s) you play with.... Then why not invluce the cards you want to use over those you feel are "too" strong?

YGO like it or not is a competative game, why put it to a state where you're in need of a good hand to win or you lose anyway?

The whole point of the "DM A and B" were to show that forcing people to use sub-standard cards only takes the luck factor further, so by all means if you like the game of luck go for it.... Turn up with different decks, I mean winning isn't important is it? OR at least you don't make it out that way. Not everyone runs CC decks, only the really big players, the further down you get in a SJC the less CC's you come up against.... You're not going to change the big players minds, as they play to win, why should the game be made luck based for you to "have that little bit more fun"

The mindless one for ones you want banning are the cards that KEEP the competative game alive.... Because it allows people to get back into the game. I can fully understand as a friendly player you'd rather not be facing CC decks all the time, CC are one thing, a meta deck, and there are hundreds of cards that can get around them no one uses.... A well built anti-meta deck using different cards will end up winning something when someone finally taps into them....

Rather then try and get the game to something you'd like, but only a few "n00bs" on pojo and other n00b boards around like, why not get into the game to improve it for you and improve yourself to play around the current decks?

Beating a CC player if you're bored won't make a difference, but as I said the further down you get the more different decks are that were stopped by the CC decks, its dull I know hence I left it, but I left because ban lists like this get rid of the skill in the game period.

If you want to play for fun good for you, but its EXTREMELY selfish to try and ruin the competetive game just for you and one or two other people....

SM

Lokidawarrior

12-12-2005, 08:50 PM

i really see no difference from this list, and the list already out other then cards that should be restricted or banned. Cards i dont agree with:

Cyber Jar - makes the game exciting, luck is always a crucial condition in card games

smashing ground - we need some 1:1s

Creature Swap - combos are essential to any themed deck of course it combos well, you can't hate it for that

Medusa Worm - I like it when im being challenged and i always find a way out of this worms little trap.

Heavy Storm - I really don't like it, and don't think it should be banned since it aint that good anyway

Trap Hole - its a classic, the perfect definition of trap, summon a monster i activate my trap, its a classic move that should and will never die

Pemolis

12-12-2005, 10:29 PM

Romancer

12-12-2005, 11:32 PM

Its kinda funny how people start to mimic a poster when they come up with a creative way to write a post. Kind of my "I'll reply to the whole thing in a paragraph" thing and its now evolved to "Rather then going for long reply I'll keep it short and sweet:"

If we compare human nature, people are inclined to adopt what other people do. Its a sense of conformity and acceptance. Whenever something new is tried, tested, or run, most shun the idea. Its happening here if you go through the posts. Even when the people/person asks those conformists how to rectify and/or fix the situation, the conformist won't be able to answer, and will only continue to shun the other persons arguement (as if that in itself is the answer).

So far only 1 credible answer has been put forth, (by StrategyMaster and his suggestion for more theme restrictive cards.). As much as I agree and would want that to happen, it maybe 2 to 4 years off before enough support is released for those types of decks to really stand on their own two feet.

Infact there are only 3 known answers to this problem.

1) Ban more cards
2) Release more specialised/theme'd support cards
3) Do Nothing

So far, those are the only answers that have been offered, and that we know of.
4) Create a new format. Dare I say...?

Traditional (3 of every card ever printted, so long as the cards doesn't say, "Cannot be used in a duel.)

Advanced (molded specifically to tournaments and their wants/needs.)

Tourney Casual (All overly powerful cards banned, all powerful cards limited to 1, all powerful but theme supportive cards limited to 2, and only cards that require 3 for deck building, such as Nimble Momongas, and Blue Eyes White Dragons are allowed unchecked.)

OCG (No support beyond Japan, becuase apparently, Konami and Shuesha hate the TCG, while UDE fires back with, "You're cool promo cards are forbidden form tournaments, so print more, and see if we care." (SARCASM ALERT: This last one is a joke.)

Pemolis

12-13-2005, 05:26 AM

That'd be the 4th option. How adopting Konami/Upperdeck would be to that... dunno. I'd rather they come out with something called the "High End Test Format" and at least try different and expandable sets of banlists there (which is basically what you are suggesting).

A 3rd Format. Design it to address the issues brought up here.

Its an option. Magic has several formats. This could too.

Strategy Master

12-13-2005, 08:27 AM

Pemolis: Could you suck anymore at this game? Or making your point?

Making more banned cards WON'T do a thing, and if you eblieve so, please jump off a cliff, save the rest of the YGO world from your "expertise". Its a known fact banning new cards won't make a difference to the game other then a few different cards being used. People complained about the "over-powered" cards of Tradional... And no one complainted about the cards you are currently complaining about. Very few people complained about them last format and its only in a format dubbed the "n00b" format which Pojo asked for basically are they anywhere near "over-powered".

2) That isn't going to happen any time soon.

3) Doing nothing will end up with everyone quitting. The best thing that could be done is for Konami and UDE to start speaking to the people that REALLY understand the game, rather then people who claim they do... (Example of these people are the ones that called for the ban of Tribe-Infecting Virus, as anyone will tell you in the competative game its made no different to the running of Theme decks)

Romancer: So far you've only proved you can match the lenghts of posts with myself, you've not proven anything about being able to argue your point... Though you say that 1 for 1's aren't needed, you're then showing your lack of idea for the competative nature of the game. They ARE needed to allow people to get back into a duel.... If you have to pay a cost for every card who ever gets the upper hand will instantly win the duel, as the opponent won't have anything to get him back into the duel.

You're not saying "themeless cards" should all be banned just the "free" ones.... You'd be happy for people to run Tribute to the Doomed etc over Smashing Ground.

If thats how you want the game to go WHY isn't Don banned, Robbin' Goblin banned, Spirit Reaper banned etc etc etc.... Because when using these cards Tribute to the Doomed is useless when top decking, as you'll be forced to top deck, and will never have more then 1 card in your hand at the end of the turn meaning they'll never work. Meaning you've LOST the duel.

So yes Mindless one for ones as you put it ARE required to keep the game alive, and again if you can't see that you are a "n00b"... Arguing over this topic isn't a case of who is right or wrong, its about acceptence, and while I'm willing to accept you have a point of its annoying for weaker duelists, you're still unable to understand that in a competative nature of the game these cards ARE needed.

SM

Pemolis

12-13-2005, 08:54 AM

Pemolis: Could you suck anymore at this game? Or making your point?

SM

Your pretty much a waste of my time now. I keep a base level of respect for whoever I post or write about... you just lost it.

"Arguing over this topic isn't a case of who is right or wrong, its about acceptence, and while I'm willing to accept you have a point of its annoying for weaker duelists, you're still unable to understand that in a competative nature of the game these cards ARE needed."

Understand that the only things needed are players to play the game. A specific card is NOT needed for a game to function. Pot of Greed, the Staple of ALL Staples in the game, was removed. Is the game completely broken? No. Did competition DIE... No. IS the game competative. YES. Is that Card needed in order for the game to be competative. No. According to you, it is.

One main card (POG) was removed from being played in the game and players adapted. In-fact All 4 Main Card Drawing Engines were removed from the game (pot, graceful, mirage, painful). Has the competition died. No. Is there Still competition. Yes. Is the "Competative Nature of the game" Still there without the main Draw Engines anymore... Yes. Now instead, people are using Morphing Jar, Cyber Jar, That damn Train card, Des Lacooda, Dark Mimic, Beiige, etc. Variety in this area of the game has expanded when naysayers believed the game would "be dead" and "not competative" without their Pot of Greed. In-fact, the game is still competative, and variety and options are being implemented to cope with that missing element, instead of using a mindless card.

This can be applied to the basic Problem Cards Presently Flooding The Game.

Your argument is complete BS. And I just proved it.

Strategy Master

12-13-2005, 09:11 AM

Yay! And you return proving what a n00b you are.

Pot of Greed ISN'T needed for competition its needed for speed if best. A single Pot of Greed won't get you back into the game, it gives you a chance to give you two more cards that will help. Pot of Greed isn't nor draw cards in gen' get people BACK into games, it just gives speed and another option.

My argument is BS and you proved it wrong? I've one word for that FAILED.

Don't bother replying unless you can make a post that has something to do with the whole "argument".

Pot = Speed and more options

Smashing Ground = Lifeline if you're facing down Jinzo etc

Pot isn't needed, its just liked because it gives a player more options and a little bit more speed. Smashing Ground will get you back into a game which you're losing badly.

So no, my argument isn't BS, your reply IS however, and as for the lack of respect? Pojo is known to as "n00bs 'r' us" and you're proving it.... When one is after respect, its fine, but to be honest I'd rather have the respect of someone like Max Suff' who is known and has a clue on the game, then have the respect of some no one who's a n00b and comes up with a complete BS (as you put it) anti-argument to whether mindless ones for ones are needed.

Pemolis: That post WAS wate of time, and though I don't agree with well pretty much everything Romancer has said, at least s/he can bring a counter argument rather then naming a card that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

SM

Pemolis

12-13-2005, 09:21 AM

I cannot believe you are still going on. You want to rant at me, or disrespect me, do it in PM.

"Smashing Ground = Lifeline if you're facing down Jinzo etc"

So is:
Dark Magician
Dark Ruler Hades
End of Anubis
Mystical Knight Jackal
80% of the tributes
50% of the Magic cards
Heck even an equip card on something like Twin Headed Wolf just became your Life Line.

"Pot isn't needed, its just liked because it gives a player more options and a little bit more speed. Smashing Ground will get you back into a game which you're losing badly."

Smashing Ground doesn't get you back into the game when you are losing badly, it removes a card in your path. It kills something... instantly, without any real cause or provocation, whether it is 2400 Jinzo, or 200 spirit reaper, or whatever single card the opponent has on the field. There is no factor of WHEN you play it that makes the card a Saving Grace when you are behind because most cards can do that if you know how to play it. Smashing Ground is just the easiest, most mindless card that can be played in the game that is available at this time.

"So no, my argument isn't BS, your reply IS however, and as for the lack of respect? Pojo is known to as "n00bs 'r' us" and you're proving it.... When one is after respect, its fine, but to be honest I'd rather have the respect of someone like Max Suff' who is known and has a clue on the game, then have the respect of some no one who's a n00b and comes up with a complete BS (as you put it) anti-argument to whether mindless ones for ones are needed."

Case and point.. I am done posting in this thread, or at least done replying to you. Strategy, I won't drag this specific thread through anymore of your bashing and blatant disrespect of a person (regardless of WHO they are) and their views. No more name calling, no more bashing. You want to call me names, Do it IN PM. I give you permission to. Do it in my threads if you want also. Don't do it in this one anymore.

Romancer's given nothing but respectful replies and commentary to whoever he comments or speaks to (regardless of who they are, or what they may say). Do the same. My appologies Romancer.

Pem out.

Kensh0rz

12-13-2005, 09:29 AM

Dark Magician
Dark Ruler Hades
End of Anubis
Mystical Knight Jackal
80% of the tributes
50% of the Magic cards

There's one really big problem with this. Know what that is?

If they have Jinzo on field, you are not going to have a monster of your own to tribute. Since they have field control, you're not in a position to slap down a high level monster without a card that's "too powerful" and that you people want banned. In fact, almost all of the game's momentum changers either are banned or will be banned if a Holocaust list goes forward.

Also...50% of Magic cards is a bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you say?

Stuff like Man-Eater Bug is possible, but unlikely to work...

So far only 1 credible answer has been put forth, (by StrategyMaster and his suggestion for more theme restrictive cards.). As much as I agree and would want that to happen, it maybe 2 to 4 years off before enough support is released for those types of decks to really stand on their own two feet.

Didn't I dedicate a topic towards this...?

It could be done in one set if Konami wanted. Two at a push. They just need to make the cards good enough to be incredibly playable, which is not what they do right now. Instead we have to settle for mediocre cards like Fault Zone, the power of which only exists on paper and is non-existant in practise.

Indignation

12-13-2005, 09:33 AM

Yay! And you return proving what a n00b you are.

"Pot of Greed ISN'T needed for competition its needed for speed if best. A single Pot of Greed won't get you back into the game, it gives you a chance to give you two more cards that will help. Pot of Greed isn't nor draw cards in gen' get people BACK into games, it just gives speed and another option."

"Pot = Speed and more options

Smashing Ground = Lifeline if you're facing down Jinzo etc

Pot isn't needed, its just liked because it gives a player more options and a little bit more speed. Smashing Ground will get you back into a game which you're losing badly."

SM

I do not think you have seen much competitive play or any at all. Your statement about Pot of greed proves it.

Yes POG is used for speed but it is used also for an extra resource which in the short or long run will get you the cards you need faster. POG is a stupid card that can take everything you worked for like discarding an opponents hand and shove it in your face with some stupidly broken card that the opponent would have drawn 2 turns later where you would have won by then.

Like last format we have seen people topdeck pot and pull a Heavy Storm and BLS and end the game for the opponent. Heck the first turn POG the GC and DD was completely stupid. POG = luck. why because whoever draws it first gets an instant advantage which usually could be gamebreaking. In this format it will not be as gamebreaking as before but it still will give way too easy advantage.

Do not even compare pot to smashing ground. POG can give you 2 smashing, or a dark hole and a heavy storm. POG can give you whatever you were hoping for at 2x the chance if you didn't get it.

Strategy Master

12-13-2005, 09:38 AM

I do not think you have seen much competitive play or any at all. Your statement about Pot of greed proves it.

Yes POG is used for speed but it is used also for an extra resource which in the short or long run will get you the cards you need faster. POG is a stupid card that can take everything you worked for like discarding an opponents hand and shove it in your face with some stupidly broken card that the opponent would have drawn 2 turns later where you would have won by then.

Like last format we have seen people topdeck pot and pull a Heavy Storm and BLS and end the game for the opponent. Heck the first turn POG the GC and DD was completely stupid. POG = luck. why because whoever draws it first gets an instant advantage which usually could be gamebreaking. In this format it will not be as gamebreaking as before but it still will give way too easy advantage.

Do not even compare pot to smashing ground. POG can give you 2 smashing, or a dark hole and a heavy storm. POG can give you whatever you were hoping for at 2x the chance if you didn't get it.

Pot is speed, its advantage, while it can also give you two Smashing it can also give you two Traps. And if Pot of Greed, Heavy Storm and BLS ended the game, its about time you improve, as I can't say that ever beat me opening hand.... It had it fair share of luck, and that was it.

Pot isn't that hard to return from, and I played last format against people like the World number two (at the time) so I've fair clue on it. Pot, Graceful Duo though is a pain, in the last format it wasn't exactly game set and match unless your opponent was someone like Max, or Matt Peddle etc when they made it count.

SM

Indignation

12-13-2005, 09:40 AM

There's one really big problem with this. Know what that is?

If they have Jinzo on field, you are not going to have a monster of your own to tribute. Since they have field control, you're not in a position to slap down a high level monster without a card that's "too powerful" and that you people want banned. In fact, almost all of the game's momentum changers either are banned or will be banned if a Holocaust list goes forward.

Also...50% of Magic cards is a bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you say?

Your joking right? We have exforce, Premature buriel ( for those big monsters), snatch steal, 1-2 brain control, 3x smashing ground, Dark hole, 3x DDA, DDWL, Newdoria, 1-2 chaos sorcerer, zaborg... etc all of these are mostly maindecked today and they take down juinzo with ease. Only you closed mind people who relyed on ban cards think only the ban cards can beat an easy target like jinzo.

In our format jinzo is usually lucky to last more than a turn.

Kensh0rz

12-13-2005, 09:47 AM

Your joking right? We have exforce, Premature buriel ( for those big monsters), snatch steal, 1-2 brain control, 3x smashing ground, Dark hole, 3x DDA, DDWL, Newdoria, 1-2 chaos sorcerer, zaborg... etc all of these are mostly maindecked today and they take down juinzo with ease. Only you closed mind people who relyed on ban cards think only the ban cards can beat an easy target like jinzo.

In our format jinzo is usually lucky to last more than a turn.

Have you seen the list we're discussing? Don't just jump headfirst into a topic without even looking at the first post, that's downright retarded.

Strategy Master

12-13-2005, 09:47 AM

Your joking right? We have exforce, Premature buriel ( for those big monsters), snatch steal, 1-2 brain control, 3x smashing ground, Dark hole, 3x DDA, DDWL, Newdoria, 1-2 chaos sorcerer, zaborg... etc all of these are mostly maindecked today and they take down juinzo with ease. Only you closed mind people who relyed on ban cards think only the ban cards can beat an easy target like jinzo.

In our format jinzo is usually lucky to last more than a turn.

You're joking right? They are the cards these guys want banned and restricted.... We're the ones that don't believe they should be banned.... So what exactly are you on about?

SM

Indignation

12-13-2005, 09:57 AM

You're joking right? They are the cards these guys want banned and restricted.... We're the ones that don't believe they should be banned.... So what exactly are you on about?

SM
Even if they do get restricted there will still be more cards to deal with these threats as replacement like hammer, shot ekubio (forgot how to spell it) man eater bug lol, every time they take something away after only 1-1s are left and they will still be used. People will just use cards like DW lightning instead of cross out, newdoria instad of DDA etc. Anyway I do not agree with the topic thread creators idea because everything will get replaced. You would have to ban like many many cards to get rid of all the 1-1s and then they may as well ban sets lol (like in pokemon).

Strategy Master

12-13-2005, 10:03 AM

Indignation

12-13-2005, 10:14 AM

Thats the point we're making, though these guys want them ALL banned or restricted....

So I'm trying to see a point to your original post? You don't seem to have read the rest of the posts, otherwise you'd realise at no point did we compare Pot to Smashing.... And it was infect the other guys..... And no Pot, means more options it doesn't stop Jinzo etc.... Its not going to end the game against a top player, it'll just give the user extra options, which is what I said.

SM

I admit I thought you were comparing POG to smashing.

In my original post I was pointing out that the resources pot gives you can be gamebreaking. And expert players and nooBs alike have won with the resources they got from POG. POG itself doesn't beat the opponent but the resources you get from it. And yes it has ended many games for expert players when POG was used to get 2 extra cards and we all have seen it in nationals and SJCs.

Strategy Master

12-13-2005, 11:10 AM

The options have beaten players.... Not Pot itself.... Pot is a game thinner and a card that increases your options.... It itself doesn't end the game.... Example:

You're top decking against Cyber Dragon.... You get Pot and draw Cyber and Snatch Steal.... Thats game, but if the person is n00b enough to Play Snatch first they've left their opponent in the same situation as they were....

Pot gives you options, normally simple ones, but its not exactly the card then ended the game... Though it may give you the cards you need to end it.

SM

King of Dragon

12-13-2005, 11:13 AM

We could just keep this sweet here.

There are three things for certain through all this arguing.
1. Banning cards alone won't help.
2. Releasing overpowered theme cards won't help the way you would want it.
3. Banning cards along with powerful theme cards will change things.

No point saying anything about #1 it has been done all day long.

#2 Let's just make an powerful theme card for hmm E-Heros. And since this is something themes have over generic decks they will have multiples of the same type of cards in their deck.

Hero Power
Normal Spell
Remove up to 5 E-Hero monsters from your deck and send them to the graveyard. Select that number of cards in your opponent's hand or field and send them to the graveyard.

Now what if I go second and draw that card and have Yata/Raigeki/Monster Reborn in my hand. Unless their S/T is something like Waboku they're screwed. Also lets say there is no Yata I have Miracle Fusion. In one shot the opponent lost everything and then staring down some powerful fusions. Most likely with some major life point damage.

So depending on how those themed cards are combining them with Generic cards equals a lot of pain when there wouldn't be any pain not to run them along side as extras. Book of Life is better for Zombies than Monster Reborn. And before I get a dumb reply I'm only looking at my graveyard for this comparision. However what's stopping me from running 3 of those plus one Monster Reborn if it can be fitted in?

Far as number three. Certain cards can go while themed cards replace them. Also certain cards should stay but limited just to keep things in shape. Lightning Vortex, Smashing Ground, Fissure, SA, Widespread Ruin and, Painful Choice.

Painful Choice can go however if a themed version is released but, if cards are released to help themes can ban others it wouldn't need a replacement because it's purpose will be in themed decks.

Let's say that Hero card again but, this time its effect is up to 2 and its random from hand. Nothing but an E-Hero D.Duo that also helps with Miracle Fusion.

Instead of fighting over something it would be helpful to see your ideas of what a list should look like and far as themed cards go Konami seems to be eyeing that third choice. Ban cards and replace them with good replacements. Though some of those cards could be a bit better.

The Punisher

12-13-2005, 11:49 AM

Pot of Greed ISN'T needed for competition its needed for speed if best. A single Pot of Greed won't get you back into the game, it gives you a chance to give you two more cards that will help. Pot of Greed isn't nor draw cards in gen' get people BACK into games, it just gives speed and another option.

I take you haven't heard of David Simon's fiasco back at Nationals 2005. Look it up, then come and tell me Pot "isn't needed for competition."

Four Airknights. Four. Damn. Airknights.

Romancer

12-13-2005, 03:05 PM

Romancer: So far you've only proved you can match the lenghts of posts with myself, you've not proven anything about being able to argue your point... Though you say that 1 for 1's aren't needed, you're then showing your lack of idea for the competative nature of the game. They ARE needed to allow people to get back into a duel.... If you have to pay a cost for every card who ever gets the upper hand will instantly win the duel, as the opponent won't have anything to get him back into the duel.

You're not saying "themeless cards" should all be banned just the "free" ones.... You'd be happy for people to run Tribute to the Doomed etc over Smashing Ground.

If thats how you want the game to go WHY isn't Don banned, Robbin' Goblin banned, Spirit Reaper banned etc etc etc.... Because when using these cards Tribute to the Doomed is useless when top decking, as you'll be forced to top deck, and will never have more then 1 card in your hand at the end of the turn meaning they'll never work. Meaning you've LOST the duel.

So yes Mindless one for ones as you put it ARE required to keep the game alive, and again if you can't see that you are a "n00b"... Arguing over this topic isn't a case of who is right or wrong, its about acceptence, and while I'm willing to accept you have a point of its annoying for weaker duelists, you're still unable to understand that in a competative nature of the game these cards ARE needed.

SM
Sorry that post was so long. I really had no idea it'd be long. It just sort of happened.

As for your arguement, I'm not understanding why the come back card choices HAVE to be a form of removal. Can't you use a card like Curse of Anubis to turn the duel around? It's costless, your opponet can't attack with their effect monsters (which is all that is played competitively), and all their effect monsters are stuck in defense position (where they should be weak) until that player's next turn. I'm not understanding this mentality that you MUST have a free removal card, because costed removal would leave one player dead with no outs. If that statement is true, then there are always free alternatives to removal that will change the momentum of the game with a single card, and they'll set it up for your next turn. As a pro, don't you think there is more skill involved in players using cards to make situations for them to destroy monsters with their monsters (2 cards, S/T trap for the set up, and monster to destroy the threat), than there is for players to drop a card, destroy a monster, then take a chunk out of their opponent's life points? It's 2 cards either way, except with free removal, your taking cheap shots on your opponet's life points rather than destroying a monster with your monster.

I'd also like to point out, on my ideal list, I only limited those free 1 for 1 removals except 2 or 3 of them. All together, that's a lot of free removal still. Player's just can't use 3 copies of all of the best free removers. It lets, pros, like you, still get your free removal, while other players may not like using 8 differetn removal cards with various conditions, so they'll run something else. The way I see it, this is something worth testing for 6 months, and if it works, yay, and if it doesn't, then you have the rest of your card playing days to gloat and say, "I told you so, noob." It's win-win, isn't it?

B.A. Baracus

12-13-2005, 04:23 PM

I say we get ProfCon in here please...

King of Dragon

12-13-2005, 05:13 PM

I say it doesn't matter in the end Konami isn't going to scrap their list which may just become bigger each 6 months. Far as theme support goes structures along with sets will fill in those gaps. Anyone saying those cards won't work are right. With the way things are set up they won't but, its Konami's game and if they want it to work they will make it work.

They aren't releasing all those cards for nothing and making a huge change fast will screw the game up. Keeping it simple, sooner or later, decks with almost all powerful generic cards will be gone. CC won't be going anywhere but, nothing about CC says it can't be more than 1 or just how powerful it is.

Kiriyama

12-13-2005, 05:31 PM

Let's all run BURN!!!! No but seriously folks this is a terrible un well thought out decklist of some guy pissed off at every card in the game, I mean come on SMASHING BANNED???? wtf.

Relinquished

12-13-2005, 07:09 PM

Romancer

12-21-2005, 03:17 PM

Let's all run BURN!!!! No but seriously folks this is a terrible un well thought out decklist of some guy pissed off at every card in the game, I mean come on SMASHING BANNED???? wtf.
Did you even read the list, or is this just the thoughtless ranting of some guy who's pisses off over a ban list that doesn't even exist? I mean come on, "LET'S ALL RUN BURN!!!!"

Lol, just messing with you, but seriously, read the damn list before you let your fingers go dancing across your keyboard, while your brain is out to lunch!

To anyone who cares, the front page has been updated with pretty new colors and info, so it is easier to read, and I've made a quick, mini-checklist at the bottom so everyone can see the whoppingly enourmous amounts of cards, I've added on to this list (Sarcasm Alert!).

Chaosangel777

12-22-2005, 05:14 PM

To the thread starter:You could have just said Holocaust ban and problem solved. nuff said*

Romancer

12-22-2005, 09:03 PM

To the thread starter:You could have just said Holocaust ban and problem solved. nuff said*
It's not a holocaust ban. If it was, I'd have aimed for a total genocide of all costless 1 for 1 removal cards. As you can clearly see from all the pretty colors, I left 1 copy of each freebie removal card, except the big 2, so people terrified of change don't totally **it themselves and cry. This is a WW2 Asian American internment camp ban, if to be compared to anything else.

Paladinseer007

12-22-2005, 10:30 PM

cyber jar??? that should not be on the ban list because it can go your opponents way if they had no cards in their hand so there for it should not be on the ban list.

That I agree with, cyber jar hasn't posed a problem in the past and why is it a problem now. More to the point, all cyber jar gives you in a duel is five cards and if you used you have a 50/50 chance of getting what you need out of it.

Romancer

12-22-2005, 11:36 PM

That I agree with, cyber jar hasn't posed a problem in the past and why is it a problem now. More to the point, all cyber jar gives you in a duel is five cards and if you used you have a 50/50 chance of getting what you need out of it.
OK, I'm only going to say this, 13 or 14 more times. Cyber Jar clears the field with a flip. That is the first reason it is on the list. Then, it gives players a random field, which rewards the luckiest player, and it even can give them a free win with no skill or thought on anyone's part. That's the other reason it is on the list. The fact that a player may screw themselves by playing this card is irrelevent when compared to all the skilled players who work to control the field, only to lose everything to a single flip monster. This card is cheap costless mass removal.

PS: Where do some of you people pull your numbers? Cyber Jar never has a 50/50 chance of helping you, nor will it ever! Cyber Jar's probability of being helpful is NOT determinable!!! You cannot determine the number of useful cards in your deck at a given time out of the total cards left in your deck. The instant Cyber Jar flips, the entire situation changes making useable cards unusable, and unusable cards usable. Further more, you'd have to take into account every possible combination of 5 cards you pick up, whether your monster line-up will be usable compared to what your opponent picks up, and how each of the 5 cards, ecspecially S/Ts effect one another (EX: 2 monster removers vs 1 monster, or 2 monster removers plus 1 Shallow Grave vs 1 monster).

Pemolis

12-23-2005, 08:44 AM

OK, I'm only going to say this, 13 or 14 more times. Cyber Jar clears the field with a flip. That is the first reason it is on the list. Then, it gives players a random field, which rewards the luckiest player, and it even can give them a free win with no skill or thought on anyone's part. That's the other reason it is on the list. The fact that a player may screw themselves by playing this card is irrelevent when compared to all the skilled players who work to control the field, only to lose everything to a single flip monster. This card is cheap costless mass removal.

PS: Where do some of you people pull your numbers? Cyber Jar never has a 50/50 chance of helping you, nor will it ever! Cyber Jar's probability of being helpful is NOT determinable!!! You cannot determine the number of useful cards in your deck at a given time out of the total cards left in your deck. The instant Cyber Jar flips, the entire situation changes making useable cards unusable, and unusable cards usable. Further more, you'd have to take into account every possible combination of 5 cards you pick up, whether your monster line-up will be usable compared to what your opponent picks up, and how each of the 5 cards, ecspecially S/Ts effect one another (EX: 2 monster removers vs 1 monster, or 2 monster removers plus 1 Shallow Grave vs 1 monster).

Most don't have numbers (they basically make it up). Eitherway, Keep fighting the good fight. And don't freak out that you are repeating yourself (cause everybody will just try to wear you out with saying the same thing OVER and OVER again). Most i'd do is just point them to the post which has the answer (should lessen the amount of typing required).

Romancer

12-23-2005, 12:41 PM

Most don't have numbers (they basically make it up). Eitherway, Keep fighting the good fight. And don't freak out that you are repeating yourself (cause everybody will just try to wear you out with saying the same thing OVER and OVER again). Most i'd do is just point them to the post which has the answer (should lessen the amount of typing required).
It was a Baseketball joke. I was wondering if anyone would catch that.

"I swear, if you guys rip on me 13 or 14 more times, I'm outta here." - Squeek

I intend to fight the good fight to the very last drop of everyone else's blood. As Patton once said, "The object of war is not to die for your country
but to make the other ******* die for his ."

Indignation

12-24-2005, 12:19 PM

Most don't have numbers (they basically make it up). Eitherway, Keep fighting the good fight. And don't freak out that you are repeating yourself (cause everybody will just try to wear you out with saying the same thing OVER and OVER again). Most i'd do is just point them to the post which has the answer (should lessen the amount of typing required).
That is genius lol. There you go so now all you have to do is quote yourself 15-14 more times to get the point through. And if they keep saying the same thing then they just can't see the other side of things. It will help you from getting to stressed and all that repetitive typing.

Romancer

12-27-2005, 02:37 PM

I saw something inspiring today that I really think people should look at before they go on a rant about how little I know about the game. YamiBakuraFan made his own ban list (http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=242376), and his list has a lot of the same goals that my list has. Although he gets, and probably deserves infinitely more respect than I do, the fact that we made a lot of the same choices does give my list a bit of credability. So, for those people who would take one glance and say this is a dumb list, and "I'm glad you don't work for Konami," take a look and compare this noob's list with a pro's list, and you'll see the differences are only superficial.

DimSum2

12-27-2005, 05:33 PM

Romancer

12-31-2005, 04:22 PM

I dont mind the list giving that it would make a lot more decks be seen, but my one problem is that if you were to go to this extreme of banning you should def limit the seachers, aka giant rat, mystic tomato, etc, cause with you taking out smashing fissure hammershot sak and wide, field presence is going to be everthing.....otherwise i kinda like it, it would make a lot of people run dif things.....kinda like now, but a lot more.....good list....
I've never seen the searchers as a problem. I mainly use them for sacrifices or a pinch-defensive wall, and most other people use them for the same reasons or for speed in getting key monsters to the field. Field presence will become more important, but it won't be everything.

I've been seeing a lot of interesting ideas in other people's ideal ban lists, including limiting Level Limit Area-B and Gravity Bind, which hinders burn, as well as YBF's idea to semi-limit Phoenix and limit Guiding Hand, which allows Phoenix decks to exist without being broken. Let me know what everyone else thinks, and I'll update my list.

CronoBlaze

12-31-2005, 06:13 PM

Romancer

12-31-2005, 07:09 PM

I agree with most of the list. The one thing, however, that I STRONGLY disagree is unrestricting both Good Goblin Housekeeping AND Emergency Provisions. Suppose you did get off 3x Good Goblin Housekeeping (possible with Cats of Ill Omen) and one Emergency Provisions. You gain 3,000 lifepoints, draw TWELVE cards, and place three on the bottom of your deck. Basically, you just won ;)

Keep GGH semi-limited and the world will be at peace ^_^
The important thing is, they weren't 12 free cards. It would take a certain deck design to get the 12 card draw off. That, or a seriously lucky draw. Unlike Pot of Greed and some of the other hand advantage nightmares out there, (First turn trinity = scary evil luck) it's not as though you're getting these cards for free or on your turn as soon as you draw them. You must set them first and wait a turn. Also, you don't gain any dump and revive or RFG from graveyard benefits form GGH.

Also remember, you're not getting 12 cards of advantage. -3 GGH, -1 EP, +4, -1, +4, -1, +4, -1 = 5 cards gained, or +12, -7 (4 card combo and 3 cards shuffled to deck). A Pot of Greed, Delinquant Duo combo followed by a MoF was much easier to pull off back in the days before they were banned, and they netted you a 3 card advantage over your opponent at the cost of 3 cards.

I'd actually like to see more people use GGH. They get the draw power they've been praying for, and some new cards finally make their tourney scene debut. It's win-win.

Kiriyama

01-01-2006, 10:25 PM

You Banned fissure ROFL XD LMAO. This is by far the most hilarious List I have seen in a long while.

Romancer

01-03-2006, 07:57 PM

You Banned fissure ROFL XD LMAO. This is by far the most hilarious List I have seen in a long while.
If you read the thread, then you'd know why Fissure is where it is.

I'm glad you found my list entertaining enough to laugh your posteriere off. That must make it a good list, since few other lists give back to the community :rolleyes: .

For future references, what does ROFL stand for? I'm not familiar with this one.

PMasterS

01-04-2006, 07:36 AM

Rolling on the floor laughing

Hellokitty

01-04-2006, 07:43 AM

bonez

01-04-2006, 09:15 AM

There never going to restrict cyber dragon because then you wont be able to properly fusion summon it.

Romancer

01-04-2006, 10:52 AM

wow this list does fail

i dont think they will limit 1:1 removal

since its hardly broken and its available to everyone

although i agree a bit on the dd part

except the fact that dd assailant is the weakest of the 3 in effect

if it was 1 dd warrior. 1 dd warrior lady, 2 dd assailants then that would be better
Cards don't have to be broken to be banned or limited. Right now, monsters can't even stay on the field for more than 3 turns with protection, but there actual lifespan tends to be 0 - 2 turns. Everyone is running an @$$-load of 1:1 removal, so the game is just a matter of hand advantage management to win the games. The field is practically irrelevent, since all players are doing is taking turns clearing their opponent's field, and then summoning a monster to do some damage. This kind of play is no different from the MRD days when people were running numerous Fissures and Trap Holes, except instead of ugly-as-sin rainbow fish and Summoned Skulls, we have multi-tasking effect monsters that do damage and act as removal or gain more card advantage.

It's for that reason, that the 1:1 removal needs to have some kind of check put on it. The game needs to grow and change with each ban-list, not just stay the same or tip-toe back in time.

As for the D.D family, I'm glad someone finally said something. I only put D.D. Warrior at 1, because he is 1:1 removal, even though he is the lesser of 3 evils. Honestly, do to his unreliable nature, I don't see him as nearly a large a threat as Newdoria, Yomi Ship, or even a Man-Eater Bug ,but since no one til you gave any constructive comments about him, he's been sitting with his big sisters at 1. I'll move him to semi-restrict, if no one objects to it.

Kiriyama

01-08-2006, 01:37 PM

Romancer

01-08-2006, 05:37 PM

For this ban list Im sure everyone will maindeck three newdorias, you should really think about how you build your ban list, because this one is really ridiculous and has a tendency to just go towards tomato control era..... And banning fissure again is a lmao.
Ummm... Newdoria's on there. Newdoria's been on there for a while. You should read more carefully before trying to argue your case.

Update: I've put Fissure and Samshing Ground at 1 per deck.

Voldo's claw

01-08-2006, 11:01 PM

Go get good at this game, in the COMPETITIVE game.

Then update this list so it makes sense.

Romancer

01-09-2006, 12:54 AM

Go get good at this game, in the COMPETITIVE game.

Then update this list so it makes sense.
:confused:

Well, I should rip on you for spamming this thread with this atrocity against the English laguage that you've left in your wake, but instead, I'll ask what your reasoning is to think I'm not good at this game? You don't know me, you've never played me, you've never seen me play... Just because I'm not a fan of conformity, no diversity, mindless and cheap tactics, and the current state of the game, it doesn't mean I can't play (competitively or otherwise). I'm actually quite good, and I'm capable of holding my own casually or competitively.

The game exists for players to have fun, and an environment with little diversity is not a lot of fun. An environment where a card's worth is measured entirely in its ability to gain or maintain card advantage is not my ideal play environment. Somehow, I doubt this is how Takahashi meant for his game to play out. This list tries to move the game towards an environment more similar to how the game was meant to playout, with more emphasis on the field and the monsters, and less emphasis on hand advantage, which I'm sure I have typed up not only in the original post, but several other times throughout the thread, if you'd take the time to read the thread all the way through.

Sure, this list could be better. I don't doubt that for a second, but when people, like you, don't post any ideas to improve it, or suggestions, or serious creative criticism, or bring any legitimate arguements to the table for discussion, and instead choose to spam up the thread with smart@$$ comments out of some irrational fear of change, then obviously, the list isn't going to get any better. Blame the list's crappiness on yourself and everyone like you; not on the people who are, at least, trying.

Kiriyama

01-09-2006, 12:54 PM

Go get good at this game, in the COMPETITIVE game.

Then update this list so it makes sense.

INDEED. LOL. :D

Voldo's claw

01-09-2006, 04:02 PM

I'll ask what your reasoning is to think I'm not good at this game? You don't know me, you've never played me, you've never seen me play...

I looked at both of your decks and they aren't that good. I can also tell that you're not very knowledgable by this list.

Just because I'm not a fan of conformity, no diversity, mindless and cheap tactics, and the current state of the game it doesn't mean I can't play (competitively or otherwise). I'm actually quite good, and I'm capable of holding my own casually or competitively.

This pretty much proves my point. Neither am I but that doesn't stop me from winning tournies. You actually are a fan of conformity, but you insist that other conform to you.

I'm actually quite good, and I'm capable of holding my own casually or competitively.

First off, casual and competive play are so far apart that you can't really compare them. Also "holding your own" isn't good. Dominating in tournies in which the best players in your state/country compete makes you good. Understanding how the mechanics of this game works, and then taking advantage of that knowledge makes you good.

The game exists for players to have fun, and an environment with little diversity is not a lot of fun. An environment where a card's worth is measured entirely in its ability to gain or maintain card advantage is not my ideal play environment.

Card advantage is how you play card games... In general. Card advantage IS card games. Deal with it.

Somehow, I doubt this is how Takahashi meant for his game to play out.

How do you know what he wanted it to be?

This list tries to move the game towards an environment more similar to how the game was meant to playout with more emphasis on the field and the monsters, and less emphasis on hand advantage

Which is big monsters dominating in the show and decks made around impossible combos? Please, that's ridiculous. Also this format is all about monsters on the field why do you think smashing ground is popular? Why do you think Cyber Dragon is decked in almost every deck in twos? Because it dominates the field.

Sure, this list could be better. I don't doubt that for a second, but when people, like you, don't post any ideas to improve it, or suggestions, or serious creative criticism, or bring any legitimate arguements to the table for discussion

Yeah it could be better, but you've messed it up beyond repair. I've seen plenty of people offer great ideas only to get shot down by you.

and instead choose to spam up the thread with smart@$$ comments out of some irrational fear of change

You're right I'm SO afraid of change /sarcasm, I just can't stand to branch away from mainstream CC decks. Which is exactly why I bring a deck like this

http://www.metagame.com/yugioh.aspx?tabid=33&ArticleId=2901

to a competition where the best in the country compete.

the list isn't going to get any better.

This list isn't ever going to get better if you're running the show.

Blame the list's crappiness on yourself and everyone like you; not on the people who are, at least, trying.

Why should I waste my time trying to make this list good when you've ruined it beyond repair. Why should I spend an hour or two of my time fixing the list only for you to say. no 141's ruin the environment. Then you go and pitch the brilliant idea of using 142's(Tribute for the doomed) instead.... My Body as a Shield would rule that format...

Romancer

01-09-2006, 04:55 PM

I looked at both of your decks and they aren't that good. I can also tell that you're not very knowledgable by this list.
Those are just fun casual decks. They aren't meant to be seriously competitive. In fact, I even wrote that in one of them, when someone asked.

This pretty much proves my point. Neither am I but that doesn't stop me from winning tournies. You actually are a fan of conformity, but you insist that other conform to you.
You're against something, but you jump on in anyways. Way to stick to your convictions. Yes, I love conformity. I want everyone to be an unthinking automaton droid and run any cards they want, but only with a list similar to the one I want for 6 months.

First off, casual and competive play are so far apart that you can't really compare them. Also "holding your own" isn't good. Dominating in tournies in which the best players in your state/country compete makes you good. Understanding how the mechanics of this game works, and then taking advantage of that knowledge makes you good.
1) I understand the mechanics of how the game plays and what it takes to win. I don't want to run the types of decks that currently would allow me to beat the best players in the state/country, which is why I don't play competitively much. I don't play to play a deck that isn't mine just so I can win. That's what sell outs do.
2) Dominating in tournies against the best players in your state and country makes you good? Funny, luck is the number 1 factor in winning in this game, maintaining card advantage is second, and skill comes in dead last. Dominating anyone in this game is a matter of luck and building a deck that maintains a constant supply of cards. Skill is secondary to all else, which is why you can make numerous mistakes in a duel and still win against these other skilled players.
3) Holding your own isn't good, but as a competitive player, it's those players that are capable of holding their own who have prevented you from ever owning a sexy world champion card, isn't it? How's it feel to know you lost your chance at winning a tournament because you got beaten by a lucky player who wasn't good?

Card advantage is how you play card games... In general. Card advantage IS card games. Deal with it. Is it? The only card game I know that emphasizes card advantage over the cards played is Yu-Gi-Oh. Traditional card games are all about the cards you hold, not the quantity you hold, so I guess that blows your theory out of the water.

How do you know what he wanted it to be?
His manga and anime weren't about a bunch of kids doing whatever it takes to win, now was his manga or anime about everyone running the same cards or doing their damndest to maintain card advantage. I KNOW he didn't want the game to look the way it is now, because anyone who's ever created anything in their entire lives, knows how insulting it is to watch something they created get butchered and altered by people who don't know anything about the true spirit of their creation.

Which is big monsters dominating in the show and decks made around impossible combos? Please, that's ridiculous. Also this format is all about monsters on the field why do you think smashing ground is popular? Why do you think Cyber Dragon is decked in almost every deck in twos? Because it dominates the field.
The manga and anime are about being yourself and using cards that you relate with; using a deck that you made and reflects your play style and likes. It doesn't mean making your deck full of insane combos, nor does it mean using big monsters to dominate the game.
You're a competitve player that is knowledgeable about the game, so how can you even pretend that BS you're preaching is the truth. People use Cyber Dragon and Smashing because they are easy solutions to any problem. Cyber Dragon is a free monster with the potential to end the game in 4 attacks. Because it's a free monster, you can still summon a monster, meaning you can win the game in 2 turns of direct attacking. People aren't trying to dominate the field with Cyber Dragons, they are trying to get free shots at their opponet's life points as quickly as possible using the least amount of cards, effort, and thought as possible.

Yeah it could be better, but you've messed it up beyond repair. I've seen plenty of people offer great ideas only to get shot down by you.
You've never explained what was messed up about this list, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Also, the majority of responses I get are, "why Cyber Jar, it's not broken." Also, I've been moving cards around and adding cards as people offer good imput. The bulk of the changes I've made was adding 1:1 monster removal and mass removal. If you read the list, you'd know why the crappier choices are on their. I limited the over used 1:1s, so people can still play 1 of each, but so people don't try to use 3 copies of the next best thing, I limited those to 1 also. Samshing Ground and Fissure are essentially the same damn card. Wide Spread Ruin and Sakuretsu Armor are the same damn card. Instead of limiting Sakurestu and
Smashing, just to let people run 3 Fissures and 3 Widespread Ruins, I've limited all of them to 1.

You're right I'm SO afraid of change /sarcasm, I just can't stand to branch away from mainstream CC decks. Which is exactly why I bring a deck like this

http://www.metagame.com/yugioh.aspx?tabid=33&ArticleId=2901

to a competition where the best in the country compete.
If you're not afraid of change, then why would a little ideal ban list, like this, by such an inexperienced player, like me, get under your skin?

This list isn't ever going to get better if you're running the show.
The froums are open for anyone to post their ideas. Please, feel free to make your own list, and show me what a real list is suppose to look like. Then, you, an expert duelist, can run the show.

Why should I waste my time trying to make this list good when you've ruined it beyond repair. Why should I spend an hour or two of my time fixing the list only for you to say. no 141's ruin the environment. Then you go and pitch the brilliant idea of using 142's(Tribute for the doomed) instead.... My Body as a Shield would rule that format...
So, you only waste hours of your time to make accusations, assumption, and to argue? That's what polaticians do. They waste time and resources on argueing, rather than using their time and influence to try and make a difference.

Rudoku

01-09-2006, 05:11 PM

His manga and anime weren't about a bunch of kids doing whatever it takes to win,
It was about a ghost trying to find his memories so he could go to the afterlife, so? The villains sure were doing whatever it takes to win, though (especially Malik).

Romancer

01-09-2006, 05:16 PM

It was about a ghost trying to find his memories so he could go to the afterlife, so? The villains sure were doing whatever it takes to win, though (especially Malik).
And yet, even the villians stuck to their convictions. Bakura was obsessed with the occult and tricky lock downs, Malik was a sadist, and he used cards that he could use to inflict the maximum amount of psychological damage during his "shadow games" (Hate dub, so badly).

Even the ever anal Kaiba chose his Blue Eyes despite the summoning handicaps. He built every incarnation of his deck around his Blue Eyes.

You know the game is messed up when the villians who are hellbent on killing the hero and must win to do so, show more pride in their decks and strategies than the bulk of real world players.

Voldo's claw

01-09-2006, 05:22 PM

Play me with one of your competitive decks online via YVD and if you beat me I may rethink my statements.

Aim: AndyWilson187

www.*****************

/\ link to YVD

Romancer

01-09-2006, 09:11 PM

Play me with one of your competitive decks online via YVD and if you beat me I may rethink my statements.

Aim: AndyWilson187

www.*****************

/\ link to YVD
A challenge to duel to resolve our differences... I accept. I registered and prepped a deck (an old favorite) just for you. LMK anytime you want to do this thing. :o

x TaCo x

01-10-2006, 02:49 PM

did u notice u got rid of cyber jar????????? y, that cards isnt even worth playing anymore.

Romancer

01-10-2006, 02:54 PM

did u notice u got rid of cyber jar????????? y, that cards isnt even worth playing anymore.
LOL, ROFL. It's my secret. I'm not telling. :p

Seriously, I'm not. :rolleyes:

mr hutton

01-10-2006, 03:01 PM

Here's what I'd like to see out of the next ban list. I’d like to play in a more diverse environment, for starters, and to make such an environment, it’s my opinion that the over-powered cards need to banned or restricted, depending on how powerful they are in realtion to the current environment. Also, It'd be nice to play in an environment devoid of the cheapest win conditions possible, which means no FTK, easy to execute 1TK, or easy to pull off total lock downs.

I see costless (excluding the card itself) mass removal as the greatest evil at the moment, alongside 1 for 1 monster removal. Konami has already banned all but 4 costless mass field removers from the game, so why leave the rest. It undermines their efforts to make costed remakes of cards to let these cards stay off the ban list.

Costless 1 for 1 monster removal is cheap, and it requires little to no thought or skill to use them. You see a monster you don't want to deal with or can't deal with, so you drop a card on the field, and it is gone. There's so much of it currently that the game ahs become a match of trading 1:1s in a battle of card advantage, making the field secondary to all else.

Costless removal undermines all tribute monsters, all nomis, all fusion monsters, all ritual monsters, and all spell/trap cards that do not instantly destroy a monster, or ones that do, but require a cost or situational condition. No one wants to use costly removal or summon anything more than the most powerful LV 4 monsters, when they know the loss of hand advantage could cost them the game, and that monsters won't see a turn 3, even with a deck based on protection and summoning. Even the players with a great deal of integrity will not choose this path, when the playing field would be so uneven for them. No amount of skill can overcome the way the game currently plays.

This biggest problem with costless spells and traps is that you are using a type of card that you can use any number of per turn against a card that you are limited to 1 per turn of. Monster vs. monster 1 for 1s usually break even, but a single S/T against a monster creates an opening to get a monster out and get damage.

Overpowered cards: Konami has printted fewer and fewer of these over the years, and they have pushed numerous themes and new powerful monsters... But who cares. +95% of Yu-Gi-Oh cards might as well not exist, because they cannot compete against the 5% of cards that are overpowered. I'd very much like to play in an environment where I can use and will play against more than the same 50 - 100 cards. Most cards have a balance between activation condition, costs, versatility, and results, but they'll never see play when there are cards that can do the job that it would normally take 2 or more of them to do. Why use cards to change monster positions, negate attacks, stop monsters from attacking, or anything else, when you can just activate a S/T card, and the monster is gone.

This list is not meant to act alone, and it would require Konami to start doing their job by printing the types of theme support that this game badly needs. Seriously, we don't need 2 broken forms of S/T removal, we need 20+ balanced S/T removal options. Same with monster recurrsion, and monster removal, and everything else in this game. The list is only there, because no one would use the new balanced cards while they can run the most versatille and over-powered cards available to them.

***New Addition: Quick mini-checklist at bottom, for easy access.***

Forbidden Cards

You cannot use these cards in your Deck, Fusion Deck, or Side Deck.

- Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning: Too much power for too small a cost. Leads to some seriously cheap wins.

-Butterfly Dagger - Elma: Too many infinite loops with Gearfried. (Never coming off the ban list, unless there is a ruling change forbidding infinite loop locks.)

- Change of Heart: Too much power at no cost. Leads to cheap wins.

- Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End: Too much power for too small a cost. Also, does too much damage with its effect leading too cheap game ending wins.

- Cyber Jar: Mass monster removal with no cost, condition, or thought other than to set it. Changes the entire field and leaves the outcome to luck.

- Dark Hole: Too much power and no cost. Free mass monster removal with no cost, and the drawback of destroying your own monsters if you chose to play them before using this (that’s hardly a drawback).

- Delinquent Duo: Too much power for too small a cost. Robbing your opponent of 2 options (equivalent of 2 draw phases) for an insignificant amount of LP is just plain cheap. Can lead to cheap wins and prevents multiple card combos from being implemented in decks more often.

- Fiber Jar: Resetting the game, except LP during tournaments is just plain annoying. There isn’t enough time to be dealing with these kinds of cards.

- Graceful Charity: Draw power, deck thinning, controlled discards, and now, Dark World swarming from what should be a cost on a powerful draw card.

- Harpie's Feather Duster: Free mass S/T removal. Broken. No cost.

- Heavy Storm: Another S/T field clearer with no cost, and the drawback of destroying your own S/T cards if you chose to set them and not activate them before using this. Not as broken as Dark Hole, but still too powerful for its own good.

- Imperial Order: Free chainable spell negation plus the ability to keep your opponent locked down from 1/2 of their deck’s resources at a minimal and optional cost to the player... Broken. Too much power and no cost.

- Magical Scientist: Scientist FTK/1TK. There is nothing cheaper than losing before you’ve even drawn. Broken. If Catapult Turtle didn’t exist, then this would be Restricted to 1. It’s that powerful.

- Makyura the Destructor: Reversed World 1TK and loop combo with Cliff The Trap Remover. Another cheap way to lose.

- Mirage of Nightmare: Too much power. Mass drawing and discarding that can be used in combos to help a lot of 1TK decks.

- Mirror Force: Too much power at no cost. Wiping out an opponent’s entire monster zone with 1 card just because they attacked is too much power for 1 card.

- Monster Reborn: Too powerful at no cost. Free monster recursion with no restrictions to position or which player’s graveyard.

- Painful Choice: Too much power. Helps too many 1TK decks, and its drawback is the best part of its effect.

- Pot of Greed: Too powerful and no cost. Deck thinning, hand replenishment, no cost... Nuff said.

- Raigeki: Too powerful and no cost. Free mass monster removal.

- Ring of Destruction: Free monster removal and game ending damage inflicter. Cheap wins.

- Sangan: Not as bad as Witch, but still more power than any no tribute monster deserves. All it must do is see the field and leave the field, and you get card advantage in the form of most any monster from your deck that your heart desires. The only way to get around his effect is RFG.

- Sinister Serpent: Negates all discard costs, gives you a monster to set every single turn.

- Snatch Steal: Having a monster stolen once and tributed or turned lose on you is annoying and cheap. In a way, it is free 1 for 1 removal, so it belongs here.

- Torrential Tribute: Costless mass monster removal with a negligible cost.

- Tribe-Infecting Virus: It’s Lightning Vortex, but it’s recyclable, and it’s built into a 1600 no tribute monster. The ability to clear the field at will is just too much power to give a no tribute monster with no recursion restrictions. This is a theme deck destroyer... Not the way I’d like to see the game go.

- Witch of the Black Forest: She can fetch most any monster in your deck upon leaving the field regardless of how she gets to the graveyard. Worst of which, she fetches the beatsticks and all weenie monsters.

- Yata-Garasu: The very definition of cheap win conditions. Raise your hands if you love to be Yata-Locked regardless of the opponent’s skill level...

New Restricted: Cyber Jar, Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, Sangan, Snatch Steal, Torrential Tribute

Limited Cards

You can ONLY use one of the following cards in the Deck, Fusion Deck & Side Deck combined.

- Book of Moon: Extremely versatile. Recycle your flip effect monsters, stop 1 monsters attack, set up a monster to be destroyed, etc. It's numerous cards in one, has no activation cost, minimal requirement, and you can use it on any turn. Did, I mention it helps 1TK decks relying on flip monsters.

- Book of Taiyou: Helps 1TK decks, ecspecially when combined with BOM.

- Brain Control: This card can be minimally costed removal, but only if you have a monster to tribute the stolen monster for. Otherwise, it has the potential to do that cheap trick that Change of Heart does.

- Breaker the Magical Warrior: Destroy 1 S/T card for free and keep a 1600 attack monster. This thing isn't godly, but it is powerful enough to need limiting.

- Bottomless Trap Hole: 1 for 1 free removal. The condition is almost minimal. Deters players from playing more tribute monsters, nomi monsters, ritual monsters, fusion monsters, and many times, just summoning during a turn.

- Call of the Haunted: Free recursion with few limitations.

- Card Destruction: Helps 1TK decks. Helps Dark World. Helps any deck relying on filling the graveyard. Helps any player wanting to draw new cards, while screwing the player who was setting up a combo in their hand.

- Ceasefire: Flip negation and game ending burn. Cheap win condition.

- Compulsory Evacuation Device: I had previously over-looked this little gem. In essence, it is costless 1 for 1 removal, even if it is only temporary removal. This would become new splashable removal if left unchecked.

- Confiscation: 1 for 1 hand disruption with a cost. Too powerful if run in multiples, but not so powerful it needs to be banned completely.

- Creature Swap: I hate this card. It’s ugly and cheap. Also, it combos well in more decks than it should be allowed to.

- Cyber Dragon: A free 2100 beatstick anti-swarmer swarmer. They shouldn’t have made its effect a special summon.

- Cyber Stein: Cheap... Very very cheap.

- D.D. Assailant: Guaranteed to break even or gain field advantage.

- D. D. Warrior Lady: Guaranteed to break even or gain field advantage. Her optional effect makes her more dangerous than D.D. Assailant.

- Dark Magician of Chaos: Extremely powerful, but cannot do it’s 1TK with only 1.

- Exchange of the Spirit: 1TK condition.

- Exiled Force: 1 for 1 monster removal that is almost non-negateable.

- Exodia the Forbidden One: I hate Exodia. With each set release, comes the potential for a crappy card to accidently make Exodia another broken 1TK. Even some of the crappiest cards to date must be restricted just to prevent Exodia from becoming another Scientist FTK/1TK deck.

- Fissure: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes a 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Hammer Shot: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys. Its drawback keeps it from being restricted.

- Injection Fairy Lily: I love Lily, and I’d love to see her unrestricted. It’d finally be a reason to run LP gain decks, but she has too much potential to become another 1TK nightmare.

- Last Turn: 1TK condition.

- Left Arm of the Forbidden One: See Exodia

- Left Leg of the Forbidden One: See Exodia

- Lightning Vortex: Mass monster removal with both a cost and restrictions, but if kept at 1, people desperate for removal will have to choose between other 2 for 1 monster removers, such as Tribute to the Doomed, Raigeki Break, and Dark Core.

- Limiter Removal: 1TK is written all over this card. Potentially makes any machine type monster into a 1TK attacker. Machines need more S/T support, not 3 copies of license to do a machine 1TK.

- Mage Power: 1 of the 2 best equips in the game. Perfect where it is.

- Magic Cylinder: Too powerful if run in multiples. Yes, it loses advantage, but it negates an attack and does potentially huge burn damage.

- Magician of Faith: This is one of those cards that is average on its own, but has the potential to become broken each time a new card is released. Better dealt with before there is a problem.

- Manticore of Darkness: Has that delightful Manticore infinite cycle.

- Morphing Jar: Helps 1TK decks.

- Mystical Space Typhoon: Free 1 for 1 S/T removal with no restrictions. Too versatile to be run in multiples. Totally undermines all other S/T removal with restrictions.

- Needle Worm: 1TK potential, ecspecially with Devildozer and other SOI releases.

- Newdoria: It is 1 for 1 monster removal, but even I don't know if it has enough power to be abused in 3s. I'd say, because of how it gets its effect, it is a better semi-limited choice, but I'll leave it here until I have solid evidence it cannot become broken removal.

- Night Assailant: In multiples, it makes all costs negligible. Costs are costs and should not be free.

- Nobleman of Crossout: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition.

- Premature Burial: Recursion with negligible costs and conditions.

- Protector of the Sanctuary: Nothing special, until comboed with Morphing Jar or card Destruction, and soon, Chainsaw Insect. Add in cards to reuse those cards, and yeah...

- Reckless Greed: Another Exodia necessary restriction, unless we want to see an Exodia deck pull 2 - 6 cards at the cost of 1 for 2, followed up by any number of combos to convert unnecessary cards to Exodia pieces.

- Reflect Bounder: Magic Cylinders in a monster. I’d move this to semi-limited, if I wasn’t positive it’d show up in 2s in any machine or chaos deck that could afford 2 of them.

- Return From The Different Dimension: This card has the potential to become another 1TK nightmare if let run in 3s. It’s just a matter of time. Better safe than sorry.

- Right Arm of the Forbidden One: See Exodia.

- Right Leg of the Forbidden One: See Exodia.

- Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys: For a monster with so many handicaps and drawbacks, it sees quite a bit of play. If unleashed in 2s, who knows what kind of damage it could do.

- Sakuretsu Armor: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Scapegoat: Chump blocking with scapegoat more than once in a duel is annoying and cheap. This card gives too much for too little.

- Smashing Ground: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Swords of Revealing Light: Free stalling. Abusable in multiples.

- The Forceful Sentry: Tough call. If D.Duo was running amuck, then keeping this banned would be a necessity, but as it stands, I could go either way on this. It’s too powerful to be at more than 1 per deck, but it is a 1 for 1 trade off. Honestly, I could care less if this was restricted to 1 or banned.

- Thousand-Eyes Restrict: Too powerful in multiples. This card is goat control.

- Trap Hole: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

- Tsukuyomi: Too much power in multiples. His/Her versatility helps too many 1TK decks and cheap combos.

- Twin-Headed Behemoth: Stuck on the limited list until the end of eternity due to complications in its rulings when sent back to its deck.

- United We Stand: The best equip in the game.

- Upstart Goblin: This card sucks, but Exodia loves it.

- Widespread Ruin: Free 1 for 1 removal with a negligible activation condition. Becomes 1 for 2 (tribute summoned monster) or 1 for 3+ depending on the monster it destroys.

New Limited: Bottomless Trap Hole, Brain Control, Compulsory Evacuation Device, Creature Swap, Cyber Dragon, Cyber Stein, D.D. Assailant, Fissure, Hammer Shot, Last Turn, Manticore of Darkness, Needle Worm, Newdoria, Return From The Different Dimension, Sakuretsu Armor, Smashing Ground, Forceful Sentry, Trap Hole, Upstart Goblin, Wide Spread Ruin.

Semi-Limited Cards

You can ONLY use two of the following cards in the Deck, Fusion Deck & Side Deck combined.

- Abyss Soldier: Powerful monster removing effect, but with a cost. Powerful enough with 2.

- D.D. Warrior: Not as potent as the other 2 D.D.s, but still has a lot of power. It is a 1:1 removal monster.

- Deck Devastation Virus: This cards effect is very powerful, but its cost is heavy enough to balance it out. Nonetheless, I’m sure someone would find a way to make it broken in 3s.

- Enemy Controller: This card is too versatile to be let run in 3s. Free monster attack negation with the ability to steal monsters. This card is here because it overshadows more than 10% of the other good cards. Most players will not even consider other options when they can have 1 easy answer. It's many cards in 1. Versatility is power.

- Gravity Bind: Stall has enough assets. They can survive with only 2 of this.

- Jinzo: Powerful monster, powerful effect. Overshadowed by Mobius’s destruction power and Royal Decree’s splashability. I’d give him a chance here. I don't think he's still the same godly monster he once was, and how many CC decks can really afford to add 1 more tribute monster into their decks? Maybe at 2, Jinzo could have his own dedicated deck type.

- Level Limit - Area B: Stall has enough assets. They can survive with only 2 of this.tage. Too powerful in 3s.

- Mask of Darkness: Same as MoF. Potential to become too powerful with each card release. Not as powerful as MoF due to traps being slower.

- Messenger of Peace: Stall has enough assets. They can survive with only 2 of these. Although, with this card's cost being optional and virtually irrelevent, this thing is probably worthy of being cut to 1.

- Metamorphosis: There should be morph decks, just not goat control decks. This card is a deck type in itself, so it deserves at least 2.

- Reinforcement of the Army: The most versatile searcher in the game.

- Royal Decree: Do people really need to run this thing in 3s?

- Wave Motion Cannon: This card is just waiting for a chance to be abused and made broken. Better to deal with it now, than have to suffer for 6 months

New Semi-Limited: D. D. Warrior, Deck Devastation Virus, Enemy Controller, Jinzo, Mask of Darkness, Metamorphasis, Messenger of Peace, Royal Decree, Wave Motion Cannon.

The following cards are no longer Restricted, Limited, or Semi-Limited:

- Emergency Provisions: I don’t understand why it was restricted to begin with. There is no point in limiting it for Traditional play. Traditional is a free for all to begin with, so what’s one more card for them.

- Good Goblin Housekeeping: This card is useless if it can’t meet its full potential.

New Unrestricted: Emergency Provisions, Good Goblin Housekeeping

Unreleased OCG cards aren’t on here, but if they ever come to the TCG, then they can keep their OCG positions on the TCG list.

Well, that’s my list. Every card is either unbalanced mass field removal, costless 1 for 1 monster removal, 1TK/FTK aid, or a card with the potential to become broken with future sets. LMK what you think of it, agree with, disagree with, and please LMK if I missed any free 1 for 1 monster removal cards. I think I got all the big ones, but I may have missed 1 or 2.

For anyone who wants a quick run down of what I've added or moved or why it is on the list at all:

Key:
Red = Costless Mass Removal/Costless 1 for 1 Monster Removal
Blue = OTK/FTK Supporters
Green = Overpowered Effect
Orange = Cheese Factor
* = Moved (Not Added)

New Restricted (8): *Cyber Jar, *Dark Hole, *Heavy Storm, *Sangan, *Snatch Steal, *Torrential Tribute

New Limited (18): Bottomless Trap Hole, Brain Control, Compulsory Evacuation Device, *Creature Swap, Cyber Dragon, Cyber Stein, D.D. Assailant, Fissure, Hammer Shot, *Last Turn, *Manticore of Darkness, Needle Worm, Newdoria, Return From The Different Dimension, Sakuretsu Armor, Smashing Ground,*Forceful Sentry, Trap Hole, *Upstart Goblin, Wide Spread Ruin.

New Semi-Limited (8): D.D. Warrior,*Deck Devastation Virus, Enemy Controller, *Jinzo, Mask of Darkness, *Metamorphasis, Messenger of Peace, Royal Decree, Wave Motion Cannon.

New Unrestricted (2): *Emergency Provisions, *Good Goblin Housekeeping

if this was enforced then everyone would play beatdown and who relly wants that ?