We need reasons...

[StealthoftheWest]

I've realized something.

This October 1st ban list has made a distinction. It is arguably the most influential ban list we have had, ever. Some people realize this, and are still thanking Kevin for his contribution in making what can finally be considered a balanced metagame.

I do not mean a metagame that is void of cookie-cutters, seeing as the new cookie-cutter has yet to be discovered as far as I am concerned. I am referring to the fact that the proverbial landscape of YGO! has been cut and filed into a landscape which is flat and even, where every deck has the potential to make its mark. The landscape is no longer a mountain whose peak was occupied by Chaos for a painful 6 months.

For that, we are grateful.

At least, most of us are...

However, I believe we have all realized, whether periodically or instantly, that it is impossible to please everyone, and by extension, it is a waste of time trying to do so. Our "new" ban list did not come without its group of complainers, whiners and moaners, who did not like what was being done to the game simply because it did not suit them.

When BLS-EotB was banned (which, a lot of people would agree, was the breath of life YGO! desperately needed), in spite of the fact that it acted as a lock on the suitcase of originality, people complained. When Mirror Force was cut, people complained, because it meant that having 3+ monsters on the field was not a rare accomplishment any longer. When Tribe was kicked out of the Advanced arena, people complained for the same reasons why they complained about Mirror Force...

Don't make me mention Pot of Greed/Delinquent Duo/Graceful Charity, either.

This article is specifically targeted to those who are still upset and a little "sore", as it were, about the new ban list, and I (read: we) want to know why. No one from this group of people can give plausible, unanimously accpetable reasons as to why this ban list is deficient, nor can they provide an appropriate ban list to support their claims.

Why did I make this article, then? Well, it's been almost two months. That's a third of its time already, and people are still whining and moaing about why the metagame is so slow, or why "proper" draw engines don't exist anymore, and so on. Such complaints are ESPECIALLY prevalent on IRC, where the people conduct themselves as though they don't realize that the Traditional Format exists for a reason.

So! All haters of the new ban list...unite! Come out in your numbers, and give good arguments about why the metagame was "worse" than it was before.

...Please?

[ss4giel]

This ban list is bad because there are less tier one decks.

[freed1990]

no pot

[kintaro]

my bet is on randoly splashed-into-decks dark world monsters and pot of avarice :p

[PMasterS]

This list means that no deck works as they are all too unreliable as they depend too much on the luck of the draw to set them up.

This has led to the less intelligent ( not insulting merely meaning those not abnormally intelligent ) to believe that any deck can work as they see many decks winning with completely different builds.
The truth is that this is occurring due to the uniform unplayability of any deck.

And also I would like to point out that no one as of yet has been able to make a unanimously agreed upon argument as to what is so good about this format.

How about instead of asking us to justify ourselves you make an argument and we'll show you where you're wrong?

[StealthoftheWest]

This list means that no deck works as they are all too unreliable as they depend too much on the luck of the draw to set them up.

And this same luck element didn't exist before October? The last format was more luck based than this one could ever be.


This has led to the less intelligent (not insulting merely meaning those not abnormally intelligent) to believe that any deck can work as they see many decks winning with completely different builds.
The truth is that this is occurring due to the uniform unplayability of any deck.


Prove it. I'm pretty sure I asked for proof in your explanations.


And also I would like to point out that no one as of yet has been able to make a unanimously agreed upon argument as to what is so good about this format.

You must not go to these boards very often.

How about instead of asking us to justify ourselves you make an argument and we'll show you where you're wrong?

I would do so in such a topic.

[mightymage]

StealthoftheWest: I'm with you man. I get a kick out of all seeing all the idiots who thought that CC would be:
3 x Cyber Dragon
3 x DD Assailant
3 x Berserk Gorilla. . .

. . . get proven dead wrong.

And it's only going to get better as we head into the new year:

Tomato Control has proven it can stand against the great white Cyber Dragon hype. It will continue to gain support in the next sets.

It looks like Horus lvl 8 is going to be reprinted in a special edition box, meaning a rise in the number of Horus/Decree decks.

The threat of Dark World will cause people to rethink the blind hand control that's currently so popular.

Gravekeeper's and spellcasters will get a boost from the release of Magical Dimension.

Isn't fewer decks at the top teir EXACTLY WHAT WE WANTED OUT OF THE GAME? Where was the fun of having every major tournament be about who can topdeck BLS or the trinity faster? where was the fun of playing against very little other than Goat Control decks when you went to an SJC or regionals?

[ss4giel]

StealthoftheWest: I'm with you man. I get a kick out of all seeing all the idiots who thought that CC would be:
3 x Cyber Dragon
3 x DD Assailant
3 x Berserk Gorilla. . .

. . . get proven dead wrong.

And it's only going to get better as we head into the new year:

Tomato Control has proven it can stand against the great white Cyber Dragon hype. It will continue to gain support in the next sets.

It looks like Horus lvl 8 is going to be reprinted in a special edition box, meaning a rise in the number of Horus/Decree decks.

The threat of Dark World will cause people to rethink the blind hand control that's currently so popular.

Gravekeeper's and spellcasters will get a boost from the release of Magical Dimension.

Isn't fewer decks at the top teir EXACTLY WHAT WE WANTED OUT OF THE GAME? Where was the fun of having every major tournament be about who can topdeck BLS or the trinity faster? where was the fun of playing against very little other than Goat Control decks when you went to an SJC or regionals?

2 Cyber
2-3 D.D. Assailant

Lol that is like the current cc. You know that right? Whoever said 3 gorilla would be the cc hadn't tested the format. 3 Cybers can work in a super aggro deck, although if you play a mirror match it isn't very good, which made it get cut to 2.

I haven't seen 1 "Tomato Control" make t8 at a large event. Dale's deck wasn't Tomato Control at all. Metagame gave it that name because it was randomly "teching" a good card which had support in the deck. The tomato speeded the deck up, and wasn't the focus of the deck. It was toolbox with Tomato tech. It won't continue to gain support really. It's a decent Tier 2 decktype that can't handle the consistency of Tool Box or the quickness of RFTDD.

Horus is pretty good, but again, D.D. Assailant is just like > it. Also, if you don't draw decree, you can get bombed by Sakus/Bottomless/Widespreads, making it falter. It can lose to a single Dust Tornado etc. etc.

Dark World will NOT have that large of an impact on the metagame. I've only seen Max run a good Dark World deck. They're terrible late game and need good draws early game to stay competetive with swarming decks.

Gravekeepers and Spellcasters don't top well enough in this format and GKers rely on a single card to stay competetive making it difficult to win without it.

I think you totally messed up your quote in the last paragraph. Less Tier 1 decks = less original decks to be played at major events. It's just hard in this format to find anything that competes with BazoOtk, Toolbox, or Flip Flop Control. =\

I can keep going all day. Last format wasn't that bad. The first ban list was best, and this format requires less skill than every format combined.

[topspin1617]

This format is good because there is not one deck or card dominating the format. Cyber Dragon is good, but not necessary to win. DDA is also strong, but is more of an annoyance than a game changer. We have Bazoo, Chaos, Toolbox, and Cyber OTK top 8'ing at major events.

This format is no more luck based than the last. We may not have PoG, but that is one card out of 40 in a deck. Having that card back would make little difference.

There are ways to counter the format like there weren't last format. There were few ways to stop Goat Control, but there are ways to beat these CC decks. Bazoo/RftDD decks could be thought of as anti-meta, countering commonly played cards. Now if they become CC, there are still quite a few ways to stop them.

We have more variety and less dominant CC's. Isn't that what everyone wanted?

The first ban list was best, and this format requires less skill than every format combined.

And somehow, the "good" players continue to do well. It's not like there are 7 random people in the top 8 of every SJC so far, the skilled players are still doing well, so obviously it's not totally luck based.

[ss4giel]

Giel: Max, which format was better, This one or last one?
Max Suffridge: Last one.

Giel: Kris, which format was better, This one or last one?
Kris Perovic: Last one.

Giel: David, which format was better, This one or last one?
David Simon: Last one.

Giel, Steve, which format was better, This one or last one?
Steve Lusko: Last one.

etc. =\

Paul said this one. I wonder why though :P

[mightymage]

Of course Max Suffridge doesn't like the new format.

He became our National Champion last year by running the very obvious CC deck of that format with a little bit of extra tech.

[ss4giel]

You know why I hate this format? Really?

Because overextensive players that aren't good can get away with it. They can set 3 cards safely without me 2 for 1ing them and really making them pay for their mistakes. It's ok for players to drop Cyber + another monster + already have 1 monster. I won't have anything to stop this act of restless aggro. el oh el. Traditional Format was the best version of punishing bad players. This format, if your opponent has used Torrent + Hole, I can summon 5 monsters with nothing to fear.

[mightymage]

If it's that obvious that your opponent is hitting you with Cyber Dragon swarm, then punish them for it. Ojama Trio, Curse of Anubis, Morphing Jar #2, Cyber Jar, a WELL-TIMED Torrential Tribute, etc.

You know why I like this format?

Nothing is unstoppable.

Even the most powerful deck in the game has glaring weaknesses.

No race to the trinity

No stolen wins thanks to a BLS topdeck. . . you're really trying to convince people that Cyber Dragon is a bigger threat than BLS?

No games that are decided by who wins the Coin flip and can put their Magical Scientist and Catapult Turtle on the field first.

best of all. . .
lots of different decks to play against.

[mrhydega]

Well, I'm happy with anything. The only card I really miss is Change of Heart because it is my favorite card. As for the rest, well, I adapt and move on. I'm glad that Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Begining was forbidden as well as Tribe Infecting Virus. Okay, I really could benifit from having a Sinister Serpent, but who couldn't? :D

[Netdecker]

Where did you see on these boards or in Top 8 a Tomato Control deck? Those are jank. No one at regionals ran them. They all ran some sort of CC Toolbox. Plus, who thought the next CC would be 3 Gorillas? Lmfao, they stick to Beastdown, which isn't CC.

[StealthoftheWest]

You know why I hate this format? Really?

Because overextensive players that aren't good can get away with it. They can set 3 cards safely without me 2 for 1ing them and really making them pay for their mistakes. It's ok for players to drop Cyber + another monster + already have 1 monster. I won't have anything to stop this act of restless aggro. el oh el. Traditional Format was the best version of punishing bad players. This format, if your opponent has used Torrent + Hole, I can summon 5 monsters with nothing to fear.


Except another copy of Sakuretsu Armor, Smashing Ground, Dark Hole, Widespread Ruin...

[ss4giel]

Except another copy of Sakuretsu Armor, Smashing Ground, Dark Hole, Widespread Ruin...

I said hole. And the rest of those cards don't punnish me for having 5 monsters on the field at all. el oh el.

[TheSavageCanadian]

Here's the problem:

Better players don't always win anymore. In every format but this one the best players would almost always win, barring an extremely godly hand. The better players would be able to defend against the trinity properly and the bad players would be at an even bigger disadvantage. This led to everyone complaining about luck. Bad players lost to good cards from better players and good players lost only to the most godluck. Thus everyone hated that list to some extent. Only the very best appreciated the amount of skill involved in protecting yourself from power cards.

This banlist has no way to seperate good players from bad players. If everyone runs the cookie deck (which is essentially some form of warrior toolbox or another) then whoever has the better cards will win, hands down. It's all about who has the "counter hand." (A counter hand is when I have like all flips and defensive traps and you have swordsman lv 2 and all m/t removal, and enough defense to kill anything I could attack lv 2 with.)

This forces players to create new decks with different strategies. The metagame has been broken by Paul Levitin's (or Wangpirates?) Bazoo/RftDD abuse deck. Likewise, my Control deck has cracked the cookie deck and has made a spot for itself in the current metagame. Soul Control is doing the same thing, but is more vunerable to bad hands/counter hands. This is why most players (including myself at the start of the format) complain about this list:

If 2 players playing the same deck (say, cookie cutter) face off, the player with better hands will win, not the player with more skills

This was untrue in previous lists. Pro players could make comebacks by using their cards perfectly, even if they had an inferior hand. In this list, there is no overcoming it. You have to have the better DECK and it has to be able to produce better hands.

Yu-Gi-Oh! has turned to the way every other game is played. Matchups. Players now have to consider the metagame and build a deck that is a good matchup for the meta. You want to be playing an original deck if you want to win because of skills. This is why Scoop has been very strong in recent events. Their decks have been innovative JUST ENOUGH that they are able to effectively differentiate their decks from the metagame and eliminate as much of the luck factor as possible. Bazoo.dek and LotsOfTraps.dek both did this, and Carlos and Paul were rewarded likewise.

This format forces players to be original if they want to be successful, which is something a lot of noobs can't do, because they have to be consistent players, good deckbuilders and good theorists with awesome ideas.

Thus, we see why people complain about the format. Good players are no longer rewarded for being good if they play the cookie cutter deck. Similiarily, bad players will still be subjected to the luck factor while playing cookie decks, and won't be able to make original decks work because they are bad players.

Answer your question?

I should write a book...

[topspin1617]

You know why I hate this format? Really?

Because overextensive players that aren't good can get away with it. They can set 3 cards safely without me 2 for 1ing them and really making them pay for their mistakes. It's ok for players to drop Cyber + another monster + already have 1 monster. I won't have anything to stop this act of restless aggro. el oh el. Traditional Format was the best version of punishing bad players. This format, if your opponent has used Torrent + Hole, I can summon 5 monsters with nothing to fear.

Nobody is stopping you from playing Lightning Vortex, Needle Ceiling, Pineapple Blast, etc if you're that worried about swarm.

Here's the problem:

Better players don't always win anymore. In every format but this one the best players would almost always win, barring an extremely godly hand. The better players would be able to defend against the trinity properly and the bad players would be at an even bigger disadvantage. This led to everyone complaining about luck. Bad players lost to good cards from better players and good players lost only to the most godluck. Thus everyone hated that list to some extent. Only the very best appreciated the amount of skill involved in protecting yourself from power cards.

This banlist has no way to seperate good players from bad players. If everyone runs the cookie deck (which is essentially some form of warrior toolbox or another) then whoever has the better cards will win, hands down. It's all about who has the "counter hand." (A counter hand is when I have like all flips and defensive traps and you have swordsman lv 2 and all m/t removal, and enough defense to kill anything I could attack lv 2 with.)

This forces players to create new decks with different strategies. The metagame has been broken by Paul Levitin's (or Wangpirates?) Bazoo/RftDD abuse deck. Likewise, my Control deck has cracked the cookie deck and has made a spot for itself in the current metagame. Soul Control is doing the same thing, but is more vunerable to bad hands/counter hands. This is why most players (including myself at the start of the format) complain about this list:

If 2 players playing the same deck (say, cookie cutter) face off, the player with better hands will win, not the player with more skills

This was untrue in previous lists. Pro players could make comebacks by using their cards perfectly, even if they had an inferior hand. In this list, there is no overcoming it. You have to have the better DECK and it has to be able to produce better hands.

Yu-Gi-Oh! has turned to the way every other game is played. Matchups. Players now have to consider the metagame and build a deck that is a good matchup for the meta. You want to be playing an original deck if you want to win because of skills. This is why Scoop has been very strong in recent events. Their decks have been innovative JUST ENOUGH that they are able to effectively differentiate their decks from the metagame and eliminate as much of the luck factor as possible. Bazoo.dek and LotsOfTraps.dek both did this, and Carlos and Paul were rewarded likewise.

This format forces players to be original if they want to be successful, which is something a lot of noobs can't do, because they have to be consistent players, good deckbuilders and good theorists with awesome ideas.

Thus, we see why people complain about the format. Good players are no longer rewarded for being good if they play the cookie cutter deck. Similiarily, bad players will still be subjected to the luck factor while playing cookie decks, and won't be able to make original decks work because they are bad players.

Answer your question?

I should write a book...

That kind of explains why the format is good. The good players still win, I don't know what you're talking about.

Good players can still come back from bad hands. If your opponent has a god, hand, there may not be much you can do, but that is true of any format.

If 2 people play the same deck, and one is much better than the other, the good player will still usually win. A subpar player will not play the hand right and make a mistake.

And what's wrong with forcing players to be original?

[ss4giel]

Nobody is stopping you from playing Lightning Vortex, Needle Ceiling, Pineapple Blast, etc if you're that worried about swarm.

I don't like playing bad cards. I have Needle Ceiling sided for BazoOTK

[topspin1617]

I don't like playing bad cards. I have Needle Ceiling sided for BazoOTK

Then why don't you side Vortex to punish overextenders? You can't complain about them and then not try to find a solution.

[ss4giel]

Then why don't you side Vortex to punish overextenders? You can't complain about them and then not try to find a solution.

because that card is bad imo.

[topspin1617]

because that card is bad imo.

Well, at least it would still generate advantage against the no skill, overextending type of player that you seem to dislike.

[#2 of team exile]

No pot of greed is just a cruel and unusual punishment.

[topspin1617]

No pot of greed is just a cruel and unusual punishment.

That 1 card out of 40 barely makes a difference. It was different when it was able to be abused 5 times per duel.

[mech-hound]

Just wondering besides CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC thing what were last formats tier 1 decks?

[TheSavageCanadian]

Well, at least it would still generate advantage against the no skill, overextending type of player that you seem to dislike.

What you don't seem to understand is that the "bad, overextending" players are those who put a SECOND monster on the field when a Dark Hole would generate a +1 overall. Lightning Vortex doesn't punish these players as you won't be generating advantage (unless you discard Night Assailant with a flip =/)

[ss4giel]

What you don't seem to understand is that the "bad, overextending" players are those who put a SECOND monster on the field when a Dark Hole would generate a +1 overall. Lightning Vortex doesn't punish these players as you won't be generating advantage (unless you discard Night Assailant with a flip =/)

exactly. Thank you Conspire.

[topspin1617]

What you don't seem to understand is that the "bad, overextending" players are those who put a SECOND monster on the field when a Dark Hole would generate a +1 overall. Lightning Vortex doesn't punish these players as you won't be generating advantage (unless you discard Night Assailant with a flip =/)

The way he was sounding is that he was complaining about players that really overextend, like 3+ monsters or something.

And besides, we had less mass removal last format as opposed to this one, and overextending was less risky and possibly rewarding, like summoning BLS when your monsters were destroyed.

[StealthoftheWest]

Here's the problem:

Better players don't always win anymore. In every format but this one the best players would almost always win, barring an extremely godly hand. The better players would be able to defend against the trinity properly and the bad players would be at an even bigger disadvantage. This led to everyone complaining about luck. Bad players lost to good cards from better players and good players lost only to the most godluck. Thus everyone hated that list to some extent. Only the very best appreciated the amount of skill involved in protecting yourself from power cards.

No...people won duels because they used BLS. With very limited exceptions, for every SJC since April 1st, the top 8 decks had BLS-EotB in it. That MUST be indicative of something for those who no longer have that opportunity to win due to lucky, unfair topdecking.

This banlist has no way to seperate good players from bad players. If everyone runs the cookie deck (which is essentially some form of warrior toolbox or another) then whoever has the better cards will win, hands down. It's all about who has the "counter hand." (A counter hand is when I have like all flips and defensive traps and you have swordsman lv 2 and all m/t removal, and enough defense to kill anything I could attack lv 2 with.)

1. First, you say that this banlist has no way of separating good players from bad ones. The previous ban list was even less efficient at this.

2. The CC isn't Warrior Toolbox...or at least, I think it's still too early to determine what the new CC is. Oh, and the conditions you stated also existed in the last format. Whichever player has the better hand usually wins ANYWAY.

This forces players to create new decks with different strategies. The metagame has been broken by Paul Levitin's (or Wangpirates?) Bazoo/RftDD abuse deck. Likewise, my Control deck has cracked the cookie deck and has made a spot for itself in the current metagame. Soul Control is doing the same thing, but is more vunerable to bad hands/counter hands. This is why most players (including myself at the start of the format) complain about this list:

I'm sorry...but, wasn't that what Kevin wanted to accomplish? Your statement confuses me here. What everyone wanted, was a metagame where the same deck wasn't being used over and over again, ad infinitum.

If 2 players playing the same deck (say, cookie cutter) face off, the player with better hands will win, not the player with more skills

Duh. This was the case in the last format as well!

This was untrue in previous lists. Pro players could make comebacks by using their cards perfectly, even if they had an inferior hand.

No.

In this list, there is no overcoming it. You have to have the better DECK and it has to be able to produce better hands.

And the problem is...


Yu-Gi-Oh! has turned to the way every other game is played. Matchups. Players now have to consider the metagame and build a deck that is a good matchup for the meta. You want to be playing an original deck if you want to win because of skills. This is why Scoop has been very strong in recent events. Their decks have been innovative JUST ENOUGH that they are able to effectively differentiate their decks from the metagame and eliminate as much of the luck factor as possible. Bazoo.dek and LotsOfTraps.dek both did this, and Carlos and Paul were rewarded likewise.

This format forces players to be original if they want to be successful, which is something a lot of noobs can't do, because they have to be consistent players, good deckbuilders and good theorists with awesome ideas.

WHICH IS WHAT THE MASSES WANT.

Thus, we see why people complain about the format. Good players are no longer rewarded for being good if they play the cookie cutter deck. Similiarily, bad players will still be subjected to the luck factor while playing cookie decks, and won't be able to make original decks work because they are bad players.

There is such a thing as improvement. If you're not eager enough to improve your dueling skills regardless of the situation, then you deserve to lose anyway.

Answer your question?

I should write a book...


And I would be flabbergasted if your Amazon Sales Ranking surpassed 100,000.

[Shadow of Death]

That 1 card out of 40 barely makes a difference. It was different when it was able to be abused 5 times per duel.


Doesn't make a difference?

LOL!

Two cards = more options
more options = made a difference more times than not, especially if you're running a CC deck where most cards can handle any situation in this format. Opponent has two or more set cards? Summon mobius. Opponent has goats? Punish them with airknight (if you're one of those n00bs who still runs one). Etc etc etc.

The only thing I like about this format is that every deck can be countered by mine somehow without ruining my synergy. The last format had a lot of advantages also though so I miss it because of that. Maybe we'll get pot, or graceful back someday for draw power, then i'll be a happy person once again.

[topspin1617]

Doesn't make a difference?

LOL!

Two cards = more options
more options = made a difference more times than not, especially if you're running a CC deck where most cards can handle any situation in this format. Opponent has two or more set cards? Summon mobius. Opponent has goats? Punish them with airknight (if you're one of those n00bs who still runs one). Etc etc etc.

The only thing I like about this format is that every deck can be countered by mine somehow without ruining my synergy. The last format had a lot of advantages also though so I miss it because of that. Maybe we'll get pot, or graceful back someday for draw power, then i'll be a happy person once again.

Well duh, of course Pot of Greed makes a difference when you can draw it. I'm saying that its banning isn't such a big deal unless you are able to rip it off the top of your deck every time you need it.

[PMasterS]

There's no point in anyone continuing this thread as it seems that the creator of it and those who share his opinion refuase to accept the truth.


I've given up trying to convunce people, if they're too stupid to figure it out even with help then leave them to their own, its not our business if they want to be ignorant.

[TheSavageCanadian]

And besides, we had less mass removal last format as opposed to this one, and overextending was less risky and possibly rewarding, like summoning BLS when your monsters were destroyed.

Incorrect. We lost Metamorphosis [x3], Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning, Tribe-Infecting Virus, Lightning Vortex, as well as the accelerater cards to fetch these (see Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity.) In addition, we also lost Scapegoat, which would punish players for overextending by protecting the lifepoints.

No...people won duels because they used BLS. With very limited exceptions, for every SJC since April 1st, the top 8 decks had BLS-EotB in it. That MUST be indicative of something for those who no longer have that opportunity to win due to lucky, unfair topdecking.

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I just don't know where to start. Everyone used Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning because it was a powerful 2 for 1 engine. One could make a deck with good dark/light monsters and BLS was just too good to pass up. Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning rarely, if ever, helped bad players beat good ones

1. First, you say that this banlist has no way of separating good players from bad ones. The previous ban list was even less efficient at this.

2. The CC isn't Warrior Toolbox...or at least, I think it's still too early to determine what the new CC is. Oh, and the conditions you stated also existed in the last format. Whichever player has the better hand usually wins ANYWAY.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Last list had a lot of power cards, and good players would use/combat these effectively, and would thus be able to win. Bad players couldn't handle their own power cards, let alone their opponents, and thus lost all the time. I'm guessing you were one of these players. The cookie is obviously some form of toolbox or another, as seen in the t8 lists of no name players. Last format, I beat plenty of people with better hands plenty of times. Why? I was better. In the last format the good players still won!

I'm sorry...but, wasn't that what Kevin wanted to accomplish? Your statement confuses me here. What everyone wanted, was a metagame where the same deck wasn't being used over and over again, ad infinitum.[quote]

What everyone THOUGHT they wanted was a metagame that would promote originality and diversity. Then, almost everyone realised they SUCK as building decks and have to once again rely on the cookie cutter. Unfortunately, what everyone wants is to win, and since they suck, they won't ever get that, and will thus never be pleased. All this list has done is make the good players mad because now there's a chance for random scrubs to beat them.

[quote]No.

Spoken truely by someone who has no idea how to win.

And the problem is...

THIS ELIMINATES SKILL AND PROMOTES LUCK because the player with the better hand wins. Holy hell!! Are you finding this hard to follow or something?

There is such a thing as improvement. If you're not eager enough to improve your dueling skills regardless of the situation, then you deserve to lose anyway.

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to become any better than I am.

[topspin1617]

Incorrect. We lost Metamorphosis [x3], Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning, Tribe-Infecting Virus, Lightning Vortex, as well as the accelerater cards to fetch these (see Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity.) In addition, we also lost Scapegoat, which would punish players for overextending by protecting the lifepoints.[QUOTE]

Metamorphosis by itself was hardly mass removal. And by the way, we still have 1. And Lightning Vortex didn't go anywhere. Also, Tribe Infecting Virus rarely hit multiple monsters at the same time.

We still have 1 Scapegoat, and you could also use Waboku to protect the LP if you're that desperate.



[QUOTE]There are so many things wrong with this statement that I just don't know where to start. Everyone used Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning because it was a powerful 2 for 1 engine. One could make a deck with good dark/light monsters and BLS was just too good to pass up. Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning rarely, if ever, helped bad players beat good ones

I agree on that point, though I have been on the receiving end of a few lucky BLS topdecks.



You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Last list had a lot of power cards, and good players would use/combat these effectively, and would thus be able to win. Bad players couldn't handle their own power cards, let alone their opponents, and thus lost all the time. I'm guessing you were one of these players. The cookie is obviously some form of toolbox or another, as seen in the t8 lists of no name players. Last format, I beat plenty of people with better hands plenty of times. Why? I was better. In the last format the good players still won!

The good players are STILL winning. The champions of the last 2 SJCs have hardly been randoms. We still have a couple power cards, and it's more importantly to use them correctly now than it was before, because you may only get one shot at it. You could get away with more mistakes in the last format than in this one.

What everyone THOUGHT they wanted was a metagame that would promote originality and diversity. Then, almost everyone realised they SUCK as building decks and have to once again rely on the cookie cutter. Unfortunately, what everyone wants is to win, and since they suck, they won't ever get that, and will thus never be pleased. All this list has done is make the good players mad because now there's a chance for random scrubs to beat them.

There is actually a bit of diversity now. At the last SJC, there were 3 or 4 different themes present in the top 8, depending on how you divide them. I consider myself a fairly good player, and I don't think I would lose to random scrubs now any more than I did before.

THIS ELIMINATES SKILL AND PROMOTES LUCK because the player with the better hand wins. Holy hell!! Are you finding this hard to follow or something?

Whoever had the better hand last format would usually win also. I don't care how good you are, it's tough to come back from a first turn Pot of Greed +Delinquint Duo, unless they got unlucky and hit Sinister Serpent + Chaos Food with the Duo.



I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to become any better than I am.

There is always room for improvement, no matter how much of a god you think you are.

[TheSavageCanadian]

Metamorphosis is NOT playable anymore and neither is Lightning Vortex. You can't consider these options for mass removal anymore. Waboku is not a good card, and neither is Scapegoat for the most part. If you're going to try to prove me wrong, at least use good examples, otherwise you're only going to strengthen my argument...

Good players have been winning because they've MADE ORIGINAL DECKS. Thank you for reinforcing my point that you have to innovate to be successful now...

Last format it was very easy to make comebacks. How can you consider yourself a good player and then say "zomg Pot + Duo = game." You are amongst the VAST majority of players who are terrible if this is your view.

[topspin1617]

Metamorphosis is NOT playable anymore and neither is Lightning Vortex. You can't consider these options for mass removal anymore. Waboku is not a good card, and neither is Scapegoat for the most part. If you're going to try to prove me wrong, at least use good examples, otherwise you're only going to strengthen my argument...

Good players have been winning because they've MADE ORIGINAL DECKS. Thank you for reinforcing my point that you have to innovate to be successful now...

Last format it was very easy to make comebacks. How can you consider yourself a good player and then say "zomg Pot + Duo = game." You are amongst the VAST majority of players who are terrible if this is your view.

I didn't consider Morph and Vortex options for mass removal last format either. If Scapegoat isn't good, don't complain about losing it.

What is so wrong with making original decks to win?

I didn't say Pot + Duo = game. But it can be tough to come back from, depending on what was discarded and drawn. Somtimes, they get lucky with that, and if you have no cards to handle the situation, it doesn't really matter how good you are. Like if you are the best poker plaer in the world, but you can't really do anything if you are dealt crappy hands every time. It's true in this format, the last format, and in every format. Card games are always going to be partially based on luck, that's why you shuffle the deck.

[TheSavageCanadian]

I didn't consider Morph and Vortex options for mass removal last format either.

This is perhaps why you didn't win?

If Scapegoat isn't good, don't complain about losing it.

It WAS good. I'm not complaining about losing it, I'm merely pointing out that last format it was a good counter-balance to people overextending, and without Morph it's not a good option.

What is so wrong with making original decks to win?

People don't know how to do it well, or if they do, often can't play well. It's a rare combination that you'll find both (ie, Evan Vargas, Jae Kim, Nate Neilback.) You may recall the topic of this thread is why is everyoning complaining about the format? Yes? I'm giving the reasons...

I didn't say Pot + Duo = game. But it can be tough to come back from, depending on what was discarded and drawn. Somtimes, they get lucky with that, and if you have no cards to handle the situation, it doesn't really matter how good you are. Like if you are the best poker plaer in the world, but you can't really do anything if you are dealt crappy hands every time. It's true in this format, the last format, and in every format. Card games are always going to be partially based on luck, that's why you shuffle the deck

Last format had lots of luck factored into it. Everyone played the same deck and therefore the better draw gave that player the advantage. It didn't always mean they won though, and better players could work around worse players even if they had better hands. In this format that won't happen. If 2 players play the same deck, it's totally based on the luck of the draw. Whoever gets the better hand WILL win.


HOW can you people not get this?!

[Master_Kakashi]

There's actually three decks of which I know can compete extremely well together... At least it's a start. X.x

[wikidklown_247]

This is perhaps why you didn't win?



It WAS good. I'm not complaining about losing it, I'm merely pointing out that last format it was a good counter-balance to people overextending, and without Morph it's not a good option.



People don't know how to do it well, or if they do, often can't play well. It's a rare combination that you'll find both (ie, Evan Vargas, Jae Kim, Nate Neilback.) You may recall the topic of this thread is why is everyoning complaining about the format? Yes? I'm giving the reasons...



Last format had lots of luck factored into it. Everyone played the same deck and therefore the better draw gave that player the advantage. It didn't always mean they won though, and better players could work around worse players even if they had better hands. In this format that won't happen. If 2 players play the same deck, it's totally based on the luck of the draw. Whoever gets the better hand WILL win.


HOW can you people not get this?!

Wow!! Schooled!

[mech-hound]

How is deck variety bad? Or making unique decks for that matter?

Confused. :confused:

[Shadow of Death]

If 2 players play the same deck, it's totally based on the luck of the draw. Whoever gets the better hand WILL win.

but so far the only people who play the same deck are netdeckers who usually scrub out anyway, the top players seemed to play different deck strategies each SJC that they top 8 making all the people with same decks or decks to counter the meta hopeless of winning against a top player. This format = skill and possibilities, and top players prove they are skillful in this format so why complain about top players losing to scrubs, doesn't seem the players who are top8ing are losing their top 8 spots because a scrub topdecks something to beat their decks.

[topspin1617]

This is perhaps why you didn't win?

Actually I did just fine last format.



It WAS good. I'm not complaining about losing it, I'm merely pointing out that last format it was a good counter-balance to people overextending, and without Morph it's not a good option.

It's still a good blocker this format. If you don't want to run it that's your problem.

People don't know how to do it well, or if they do, often can't play well. It's a rare combination that you'll find both (ie, Evan Vargas, Jae Kim, Nate Neilback.) You may recall the topic of this thread is why is everyoning complaining about the format? Yes? I'm giving the reasons...

So the format is bad because people suck as deckbuilders? That's their own fault, it's not that hard to build a good deck.

Last format had lots of luck factored into it. Everyone played the same deck and therefore the better draw gave that player the advantage. It didn't always mean they won though, and better players could work around worse players even if they had better hands. In this format that won't happen. If 2 players play the same deck, it's totally based on the luck of the draw. Whoever gets the better hand WILL win.

Both formats have luck. Better players can still work around it this format, I'm sorry if you've lost to your share of scrubs in the last 2 months.


HOW can you people not get this?!

Maybe you need better points.

[TheSavageCanadian]

You are so clueless... I give up.

Why do I try to help you noobs at all?

[KogyochiBJ]

This format kinda robbed the skill from the game to a degree much like the last one. In this format, you either have Dark Hole and Heavy Storm, or you don't. Whomever draws those cards and has the prime opportunity to use them usually ends up with a victory.

Unlike the last format, there really is no way to get back into the game once your back on 2-3 cards because someone reapered you to death.

The only way to stop CC decks from hand owning you is running 3xsakuretsu's, which is CC anyways.

Theme decks still suck with or without tribe (who I'd accually like to see back at the moment because a decent discarding card would be nice to have)

Reapers = invincible once they get an attack off.

Only true draw power is morphing jar and cyber jar, which still can't cut it when you're -2 because of course, reaper owned you.

Toolbox is still the best by far, people are just making variations with RFTDD and bazoo's and such.

There is a lack of skill cards ie. goats and morph (both combo'd with other cards besides each other to create odd controls ie. controller/morphing to get out balter ect.)

....There are no combo's anymore that are worth playing.

The united states has an extreme lack of QUickplay cards to use when your opponent MST's your f/d s/t. Remember, MST/noobleman/reaper = gg.

Um...what decent chainable traps do we even have anymore?

BReaker = best free +2 card right now against 99% of decks.



Personally, I loved the first ban list, skill was what made you tier1 for the most part. Painful choice made tons of things playable like tributes (not monarchs), monster reincarnation, DMOC, whatever. Morph was great, but not insanely powerful because remember, we had the great ruling, and I do mean great, that you could not perform a manual monster change the same turn that it had an effect change meaning more cards were playabe like Windstom and enemy controller.

[WangPirate]

Actually I did just fine last format.





It's still a good blocker this format. If you don't want to run it that's your problem.



So the format is bad because people suck as deckbuilders? That's their own fault, it's not that hard to build a good deck.



Both formats have luck. Better players can still work around it this format, I'm sorry if you've lost to your share of scrubs in the last 2 months.




Maybe you need better points.

do you even know who he is? rofl

lets address some answers here :D

you're not good(you say you did fine, but never top 8'd anything major, and probably, never even did better then x-2 at a regs or anything, or can even DREAM of competing with top tier players, just guessing by the way you think)

goats is NOT good, due to the only reason it was good, is because morph balenced it out, but now, its just a -1 in general, you'd be better off running waboku.

i bet your decks are terrible.

yes, better players can work around luck. thanks for reinforcing matt's point, but the fact is, 2 players(who have SOME clue of what they're doing), with the same deck(less than 5 card difference, or so) run the same deck. the LUCKY ONE, WILL win. without a doubt.

maybe you need to get good and realize who you're talking to, rofl

[ElkY]

SOMG MATT PEDDLE SIGN MY BEAVER WARRIOR PLEASE!!11!!! <3

This format gives us a chance to separate the good players from the bad ones in TWO EASY STEPS! w00t!

But really, nobody has anything on Matt yet. All his arguements have burnt those against them, with no point-making rebuttles.

GGGorilla.

[Hahn]

I love how no one can argue against Conspy.

Anyhoo, this format is meh. If you t8 a major event with an original deck, you have to make something else for your next event because everyone will be running the deck you t8ed with.

[Shadow of Death]

This format kinda robbed the skill from the game to a degree much like the last one. In this format, you either have Dark Hole and Heavy Storm, or you don't. Whomever draws those cards and has the prime opportunity to use them usually ends up with a victory.

I've won many games with neither card, and many who have played them against me have been countered.

Unlike the last format, there really is no way to get back into the game once your back on 2-3 cards because someone reapered you to death.

I was reapered to death for a few turns with chaos sorcerer and light of intervention on the field. I still won with about 6000 lifepoints.

The only way to stop CC decks from hand owning you is running 3xsakuretsu's, which is CC anyways.

I run zero, I've only been hand owned once.

Theme decks still suck with or without tribe (who I'd accually like to see back at the moment because a decent discarding card would be nice to have)

Why destroy only a certain type with a discard instead of all face up monsters with LV?

Reapers = invincible once they get an attack off.

Which is why you pummel them with mirage dragons/pitch-black warwolves and punish them. It's not very hard!

Only true draw power is morphing jar and cyber jar, which still can't cut it when you're -2 because of course, reaper owned you.

Eh, unless you tech electric snake in your side deck for the reaper.

Toolbox is still the best by far, people are just making variations with RFTDD and bazoo's and such.

Eh, whatever works for you.

There is a lack of skill cards ie. goats and morph (both combo'd with other cards besides each other to create odd controls ie. controller/morphing to get out balter ect.)

Goats very skillful! I mean it takes skill to play a magic card that gives you four free monsters. Metamorphosis takes more skill because the limit of one per deck, and we pretty much lost the point of playing it, but there's always been better cards to play that aren't fusions.

....There are no combo's anymore that are worth playing.

There's a lot of awesome combos, try looking for cards outside the 40 CC staples.

The united states has an extreme lack of QUickplay cards to use when your opponent MST's your f/d s/t. Remember, MST/noobleman/reaper = gg.

Not by a long shot, and this is coming from a guy who's had this happen to them on multiple occasions.

Personally, I loved the first ban list, skill was what made you tier1 for the most part. Painful choice made tons of things playable like tributes (not monarchs), monster reincarnation, DMOC, whatever. Morph was great, but not insanely powerful because remember, we had the great ruling, and I do mean great, that you could not perform a manual monster change the same turn that it had an effect change meaning more cards were playabe like Windstom and enemy controller.

The first list was great, but alas the game has evolved as time has went on and apparently konami/upperdeck no longer found it efficient with the current domination in the metagame.

[KogyochiBJ]

...You had someone use Light of Intervention with Chaos Sorcerror......why even go on? Of course you won against him, why in the h3ll would anyone be playing Light of Intervention?

You top-decked against a noob, I hope you feel like a pro.

Tell me how pitch black is a counter to spirit reaper??? I'm interested in knowing how he counters it..>?>>??? :confused: Oh wait, you can attack it and deal 1300 damage, WOW!, still doesn't help unless they happen to have lost 6700 damage already in which they wouldn't be retarded enough to leave their reaper in attack.

I use electric Snake, can't have it in your oppening hand 100% of the time though, still tough to pull off.

I'm salty because the last tournement I went to, my opponents, for the first 2 rounds, drew in thier oppening hand - turn 5: Dark Hole, Heavy, Torrential, Good Monsters, Snatch, Premature, Call. Hard to come back from that unless you have the **** in your hand, oh wait, I did, I had Dark Hole in my 5 card hand, but wait, Reaper got it again, twice in a row :).

Personally, limiting Goats to 1 is kinda weak, we really don't have enough non-trap defense anymore.

[Shadow of Death]

Tell me how pitch black is a counter to spirit reaper??? I'm interested in knowing how he counters it..>?>>??? :confused: Oh wait, you can attack it and deal 1300 damage, WOW!, still doesn't help unless they happen to have lost 6700 damage already in which they wouldn't be retarded enough to leave their reaper in attack.

It's not a counter, it was made to indicate if a reaper's in attack just damage their lifepoints, and mirage/pitch black have to be in your control to nail a reaper without the high probability widespread ruin or sakuretsu armor. Wasn't meant to be taken literally as a counter, but rather an example of how to hurt their reaper.


I'm salty because the last tournement I went to, my opponents, for the first 2 rounds, drew in thier oppening hand - turn 5: Dark Hole, Heavy, Torrential, Good Monsters, Snatch, Premature, Call. Hard to come back from that unless you have the **** in your hand, oh wait, I did, I had Dark Hole in my 5 card hand, but wait, Reaper got it again, twice in a row :).

You may have been lucksacked but the possibility of that always happening is just like electric snake opening hand against a reaper, not always 100%. Doesn't mean that always happens though. =/

[TheMysticOne-LV4]

the one who has the better hand doesnt ALWAYS win, half the time they misplay it and lose. I agree though the more "balanced" the format gets, it seems that luck becomes more and more of an issue, because of who has the better opener. I mean, in tradtional you can come back from near hopeless situations with the phrase "remove light + dark and pay 1000". Thats not how its supposed to be though. and as the advanced formats go by its harder and harder to come back from the stupid little n00bs that open great and win because there arent any great comback cards. last format was better because of the ability to comeback from great hands if you were good enough. Now its just (as previously stated) whoever can counter their opponents hand better with the cards they drew.

[topspin1617]

do you even know who he is? rofl

lets address some answers here :D

you're not good(you say you did fine, but never top 8'd anything major, and probably, never even did better then x-2 at a regs or anything, or can even DREAM of competing with top tier players, just guessing by the way you think)

goats is NOT good, due to the only reason it was good, is because morph balenced it out, but now, its just a -1 in general, you'd be better off running waboku.

i bet your decks are terrible.

yes, better players can work around luck. thanks for reinforcing matt's point, but the fact is, 2 players(who have SOME clue of what they're doing), with the same deck(less than 5 card difference, or so) run the same deck. the LUCKY ONE, WILL win. without a doubt.

maybe you need to get good and realize who you're talking to, rofl

...wow.

Does it really matter who he is?

6-1, top 4, and a nationals invite is pretty good for the only regional I played last format.

Waboku is also a -1, that doesn't last as long. That makes no sense.

Actually, my decks aren't terrible.

Of course the lucky player will win, if they have the same skill and deck. Duh. But good players can beat inferior opponents who are more lucky, so long as the luck isn't out of control (say, Exodia in the first 5 cards).

I don't need to "get good". And I do realize who I'm talking to, but should I care?

[Hahn]

Yes, it does matter who you're talking to. Mr. Peddle happens to be, in the words of WangPirate, thirty times more intelligent than the average human.

And I haven't seen anyone do a single thing besides use a lot of quotes and reinforce Peddle's statements with long, drawn-out paragraphs that were intended to be contradictory. I'd say why this format isn't very good, but it's already been stated by numerous people.

[topspin1617]

Yes, it does matter who you're talking to. Mr. Peddle happens to be, in the words of WangPirate, thirty times more intelligent than the average human.

So? I'm a bit smarter than your average human as well, but I don't think everyone should take my words as some decree of God.

And I haven't seen anyone do a single thing besides use a lot of quotes and reinforce Peddle's statements with long, drawn-out paragraphs that were intended to be contradictory.

Then you haven't been reading closely enough.

[StealthoftheWest]

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to become any better than I am.


You know, this topic is not an invitation to inflate your ego.

Do that elsewhere...

[blueD]

HOW can you people not get this?!

I get this =/

[Zayrinoke]

Peddle officially owns everyone who has argued with him so far. No one has given any decent counterpoints. At least no one with decent credentials to back them up.

[compaqmac]

That a spam warning for stealth

[topspin1617]

Peddle officially owns everyone who has argued with him so far.

Why, just because he's Peddle? I don't see the logic behind that statement. I think we have made some good points.

[Zayrinoke]

Why, just because he's Peddle? I don't see the logic behind that statement. I think we have made some good points.

Of course you think that. You made the points. But they aren't good. You just think they are.

[topspin1617]

Of course you think that. You made the points. But they aren't good. You just think they are.

Then I would like YOU to tell me why they aren't good. I'd like to hear some more viewpoints.

[Zayrinoke]

Then I would like YOU to tell me why they aren't good. I'd like to hear some more viewpoints.

I pretty much agree word for word with peddle.

[topspin1617]

I pretty much agree word for word with peddle.

That doesn't really surprise me. Surely you must have some of your own ideas.

[Zayrinoke]

That doesn't really surprise me. Surely you must have some of your own ideas.

I do, but none of them relate in any way to this discussion.

[topspin1617]

I do, but none of them relate in any way to this discussion.

Of course not... oh well, it's not as if I expected any more.

[Snodin]

Ugh, we can go on, and on, and on, and ON about this until the cows come home after they've jumped over the moon.

I think what really matters is that despite the drastic changes to the banned list, we're still playing the game. A real sore player would just drop out and quit as soon as his Chaos-Cookie-Cutter deck was no longer what it used to be. Yet here we are, trying to adjust and await the next ban list that may possibly bring back one card or two.

As for the lack of draw, there are several ways to get around it. Poison Draw Frog, Airknight, Card Destruction, the Morphing Jars, Cyber Jar. Seriously, do we really need Pot of Greed?

Now onto the issue about Morph. It may be used once in a duel, except through Mage of Faith and Pot of Avarice. And if that doesn't tickle your fancy, there're always the Hex Fusion monsters. Or have you forgotten them? [You CAN Light-Hex a Cyber Dragon into a Cyber Twin!]

As for Scapegoat, if you're really into Goat-control, why not run Stray Lambs on top of it? Sure it's slower, but you're a great duelist; you can figure out a way to better them.

As for Tribe/Mirror force/Lightning Vortex/etc. .... Eh, I was always a fan of swarming, especially now that I get to do it. :p If you really hate swarmed opposing monsters though, why not try a monster that can attack more than once per turn? How about Mermaid Knight, or Mazata the Zapper, or Ben-Kei? I hear they're not restricted. That's just one option you have; if you want, you can do what most people seem to be doing: run 3 Sakeretsus and 3 Widespread Ruins. Seems too rentsy for my taste, but meh.

By the way, if these points were already made, my apologies. I haven't read this whole thread through, because the arguing was really bothering me early on.

If you really must know, I have mixed feelings about the list. Yes, I too miss Pot of Greed, but so far that's really the only card I miss. But even without it, my deck does fairly well (and it's only going to get better once I get my second Abyss Soldier and Crystal Core *evil giggle*). I guess the bottom line is, "to each his own."

[blueD]

Legalize Pot again xD

[topspin1617]

Ugh, we can go on, and on, and on, and ON about this until the cows come home after they've jumped over the moon.

I think what really matters is that despite the drastic changes to the banned list, we're still playing the game. A real sore player would just drop out and quit as soon as his Chaos-Cookie-Cutter deck was no longer what it used to be. Yet here we are, trying to adjust and await the next ban list that may possibly bring back one card or two.

As for the lack of draw, there are several ways to get around it. Poison Draw Frog, Airknight, Card Destruction, the Morphing Jars, Cyber Jar. Seriously, do we really need Pot of Greed?

Now onto the issue about Morph. It may be used once in a duel, except through Mage of Faith and Pot of Avarice. And if that doesn't tickle your fancy, there're always the Hex Fusion monsters. Or have you forgotten them? [You CAN Light-Hex a Cyber Dragon into a Cyber Twin!]

As for Scapegoat, if you're really into Goat-control, why not run Stray Lambs on top of it? Sure it's slower, but you're a great duelist; you can figure out a way to better them.

As for Tribe/Mirror force/Lightning Vortex/etc. .... Eh, I was always a fan of swarming, especially now that I get to do it. :p If you really hate swarmed opposing monsters though, why not try a monster that can attack more than once per turn? How about Mermaid Knight, or Mazata the Zapper, or Ben-Kei? I hear they're not restricted. That's just one option you have; if you want, you can do what most people seem to be doing: run 3 Sakeretsus and 3 Widespread Ruins. Seems too rentsy for my taste, but meh.

By the way, if these points were already made, my apologies. I haven't read this whole thread through, because the arguing was really bothering me early on.

If you really must know, I have mixed feelings about the list. Yes, I too miss Pot of Greed, but so far that's really the only card I miss. But even without it, my deck does fairly well (and it's only going to get better once I get my second Abyss Soldier and Crystal Core *evil giggle*). I guess the bottom line is, "to each his own."

I feel surrounded on all sides...

Pot of Avarice doesn't allow you to reuse Morph.

Double attackers are hardly an answer to swarm. There are answers, but their names don't include Mataza or Mermaid.

Stray Lambs don't fit Goat Control just because they're lambs. Even Wicked Plant Tokens work better.

[TheSavageCanadian]

Snodin -- You CAN'T refute arguments with bad examples. Almost every card you named was bad, the only exception being the jars and MAYBE Airknight, though that's still a luck based card in many ways.

[NITREX]

Snodin -- You CAN'T refute arguments with bad examples. Almost every card you named was bad, the only exception being the jars and MAYBE Airknight, though that's still a luck based card in many ways.
Its ok Peddle, the rest of pojo isnt as good as you they cant see it the way you see it ;|

No need to get angry over them ;EE

[topspin1617]

Snodin -- You CAN'T refute arguments with bad examples. Almost every card you named was bad, the only exception being the jars and MAYBE Airknight, though that's still a luck based card in many ways.

Okay, we can agree on that point. Those were pretty bad examples. The Jars can be fairly good if they are saved for the right time, like when it won't give your opponent the advantage. Airknight is more for some Mirror Wall control deck, though it can be effective against Spirit Reaper, assuming the opponent doesn't have a Sakuretsu Armor or Widespred Ruin ready.

Its ok Peddle, the rest of pojo isnt as good as you they cant see it the way you see it ;|

No need to get angry over them ;EE

That didn't sound like an angry statement.

[mrexodia]

I personally think this format is slightly better than last. with the exception of the banning of mirror force. but the matches seem to swing back and forth every turn and the duels are much closer than before.

In last format it was very hard to come back after a Duo first duel, and it was even worse if it was escorted alongside pot-graceful, but it could be done.

How?

Using your own pot, delinquent, graceful-serpent, topping BLS. getting a succesful Torrential-Heavy-Mirror force, abusing tsukuyomi-mag of faith. or setting some tokens while you replenish your hand.


Sure a novice will never use a power card with the same efectiveness as a more experienced player does. but this statement is also true about any decent card.

Or for that matter a bad player will always be beaten by a good player even if they are using mirror decks, their hands are the same, they draw the same cards and even if the bad player goes first.


So to sum it up no matter what shape the forbidden list takes, the good players will always dominate. What this list has done is that this "dominance" is not as abvious as it was before.

It just like the idea of playing without super broken cards.

[StealthoftheWest]

I find Stray Lambs is a horrible replacement for multiple copies of Scapegoat...

I also find that people should stop searching for replacements for banned cards, or they should stop seeing certain cards as replacements for broken cards, and judge them based off their own merit.

[AnakinSkywalker]

This is the way I see it. The current format promotes better resource management and originality. If you guys really hate this format that much, do something about it or go play traditional. Whining and complaining accomplishes nothing constructive for anyone. :p

[topspin1617]

This is the way I see it. The current format promotes better resource management and originality. If you guys really hate this format that much, do something about it or go play traditional. Whining and complaining accomplishes nothing constructive for anyone. :p

Meh, nobody's really whining here, besides, I like to hear their opinions.

Of those people of have their own opinions and can think for themselves, of course.

[PMasterS]

This is the way I see it. The current format promotes better resource management and originality. If you guys really hate this format that much, do something about it or go play traditional. Whining and complaining accomplishes nothing constructive for anyone. :p

Now that's just ignorance.

The people "complaining" about this list are conmplaining about its lack of skill, so what exactly would playing traditional solve?

And if you haev any ideas on what we can do to influence the next banned list I would love to hear how.

Finally those of us "complaining" merely believe that the absolute banning spree UDE went on was over the top, in order to be able to recount advantage due to a bad hand, or an opponents lucky topdeck we need the ability to play a limited number of multi for 1s.
The OCG ist was a much better list than ours, even if it wasn't perfect it still involved a lot more skill than this one does.

[AnakinSkywalker]

It's not ignorance, it's the truth. Whining and complaining does not effect change. There are several cards that got banned in October that I think should not have been banned, but it happened anyways. Perhaps some of those cards will come back, perhaps not. Either way, I will keep playing and changing my deck according to the latest ban list. Maybe you guys who hate the current ban list could get a petition going and try to get them to take some iffy cards off the list. ;)

[topspin1617]

Now that's just ignorance.

The people "complaining" about this list are conmplaining about its lack of skill, so what exactly would playing traditional solve?

And if you haev any ideas on what we can do to influence the next banned list I would love to hear how.

Finally those of us "complaining" merely believe that the absolute banning spree UDE went on was over the top, in order to be able to recount advantage due to a bad hand, or an opponents lucky topdeck we need the ability to play a limited number of multi for 1s.
The OCG ist was a much better list than ours, even if it wasn't perfect it still involved a lot more skill than this one does.

Well, there is no more lack of skill now than there was before. At least now you can't have +3 advantage on your opponent before their turn starts.

The OCG list isn't that different. The main differences:
Pot of Greed - whether it deserved banning or not, it's gone. It may not be as gamebreaking now as it was before, because there aren't as many power cards to draw into as before. It seems like the good players just want it back for a way to bail themselves out when they're losing.

Tribe Infecting Virus - Without Sinister Serpent and Pot of Greed, it wouldn't be very effective anyway.

And I can't remember the other cards now, but like I said, it's not that much of a difference.

[PMasterS]

Well, there is no more lack of skill now than there was before. At least now you can't have +3 advantage on your opponent before their turn starts.

The OCG list isn't that different. The main differences:
Pot of Greed - whether it deserved banning or not, it's gone. It may not be as gamebreaking now as it was before, because there aren't as many power cards to draw into as before. It seems like the good players just want it back for a way to bail themselves out when they're losing.

Tribe Infecting Virus - Without Sinister Serpent and Pot of Greed, it wouldn't be very effective anyway.

And I can't remember the other cards now, but like I said, it's not that much of a difference.

Those instances were rare and could still be overcome, although I'm nt defending last list, it was awful but not quite as luck based as this one.

The OCG list is very different PoG and Tribe alone make that the case, but how about the fact that MoF at 3 makes Spellcasters useable in a non beatdown variant, Nobleman at 2 means that there wouldn't be the Ms lv2 rush so facedown monsters would be more playable, especially since Nobleman can be stopped easier.

Tribe is excellent even without sinister, sinister meant that you culd discard blindly and not have to care all its banning means is that they have to be more careful about how they play Tribe, it doesn't take away from its power just the ease with which unskilled people used to use it.

And its not about bailing ourselves out, its about having cards that allow for a reverse of momentum to

1) Keep the duel interesting

2) Give a chance to offset a bad hand

3) Make more decks playable etc etc etc

The truth is that most people who like this list like it because they weren't good enough to win under the previous lists but now with skill being unimportant anymore, they beat good players more often. And even if they lose,because there are only 2 skill cards left, it appears to have been a closer game so they are not as miserable at being beaten.

[Bokuto_No_Ryu]

Good players have been winning because they've MADE ORIGINAL DECKS. Thank you for reinforcing my point that you have to innovate to be successful now...


Wow...it's kinda' like life. Amazing, isn't it?

[mech-hound]

The OCG lust was better besides, Pot of course.

But this is by far the best list since UD has had one.

[TheSavageCanadian]

The OCG list is a lot better, but they also have a different card pool than us...

[Kameiko]

I've realized something.

This October 1st ban list has made a distinction. It is arguably the most influential ban list we have had, ever. Some people realize this, and are still thanking Kevin for his contribution in making what can finally be considered a balanced metagame.

I do not mean a metagame that is void of cookie-cutters, seeing as the new cookie-cutter has yet to be discovered as far as I am concerned. I am referring to the fact that the proverbial landscape of YGO! has been cut and filed into a landscape which is flat and even, where every deck has the potential to make its mark. The landscape is no longer a mountain whose peak was occupied by Chaos for a painful 6 months.

For that, we are grateful.

At least, most of us are...

However, I believe we have all realized, whether periodically or instantly, that it is impossible to please everyone, and by extension, it is a waste of time trying to do so. Our "new" ban list did not come without its group of complainers, whiners and moaners, who did not like what was being done to the game simply because it did not suit them.

When BLS-EotB was banned (which, a lot of people would agree, was the breath of life YGO! desperately needed), in spite of the fact that it acted as a lock on the suitcase of originality, people complained. When Mirror Force was cut, people complained, because it meant that having 3+ monsters on the field was not a rare accomplishment any longer. When Tribe was kicked out of the Advanced arena, people complained for the same reasons why they complained about Mirror Force...

Don't make me mention Pot of Greed/Delinquent Duo/Graceful Charity, either.

This article is specifically targeted to those who are still upset and a little "sore", as it were, about the new ban list, and I (read: we) want to know why. No one from this group of people can give plausible, unanimously accpetable reasons as to why this ban list is deficient, nor can they provide an appropriate ban list to support their claims.

Why did I make this article, then? Well, it's been almost two months. That's a third of its time already, and people are still whining and moaing about why the metagame is so slow, or why "proper" draw engines don't exist anymore, and so on. Such complaints are ESPECIALLY prevalent on IRC, where the people conduct themselves as though they don't realize that the Traditional Format exists for a reason.

So! All haters of the new ban list...unite! Come out in your numbers, and give good arguments about why the metagame was "worse" than it was before.

...Please?

I like the new banned list. Instead of everyone running cookie cutter chaos people can finally be like "YAY!!! I can always build the deck I want to build!!!" Still chaos is around and new decks has ALWAYS been around, but some people were too scared to loose to a chaos deck. I don't see why some people were afraid of chaos? Sure it reined supreme for the first...12 months (Ok since the FIRST banned list came out wich had Injection on it and no emperor dragon)....think about CED:EOTE didnt end the chaos meta.

Some people were so sick of chaos that they decided to build new decks just to prove that chaos doesnt always win, but those decks got beat by chaos (Some not all), but theres few exceptions. Soul Control came out during chaos's time, by Evan Vargez (However spelled :/) but the deck might have always been out. I just think Evan was the first person to ever bring the deck to a Shonen Jump tournament.

Since the new banned list has been out Trample, Horus, Fiends, Zombies, warriors, Dark World, and more haven been seeing played, because of no chaos (even though its still very much alive, because one of the shonen jump winners had a chaos sorcerrer in their deck). Still all those decks I just named have been out for as long as well the cards been out :/. But like I said some people were too afraid, or just wanted to be like everyone else to run the deck that they came up with, not be a net decker or a cookie cutter runner.

Next banned list might see something done about Exiled Force, Cyber Dragon, and DD Assaliant. Also, not everyone is going to be satisfide with the new list, or the next list, or even the next one. This is life, and if people dont like it then tough luck for them. They will just have to deal with it. Complaning and moaning about it isn't going to change the current banned list. Talk to Kevin and if he hears enough voices of opinions then you might get your wish on a few changes in the next banned list. Right now were just going to have to deal with it.

This is just my opinion and I know I cant spell worth a poo poo, but please bare with me.

[topspin1617]

Those instances were rare and could still be overcome, although I'm nt defending last list, it was awful but not quite as luck based as this one.

The OCG list is very different PoG and Tribe alone make that the case, but how about the fact that MoF at 3 makes Spellcasters useable in a non beatdown variant, Nobleman at 2 means that there wouldn't be the Ms lv2 rush so facedown monsters would be more playable, especially since Nobleman can be stopped easier.

Tribe is excellent even without sinister, sinister meant that you culd discard blindly and not have to care all its banning means is that they have to be more careful about how they play Tribe, it doesn't take away from its power just the ease with which unskilled people used to use it.

And its not about bailing ourselves out, its about having cards that allow for a reverse of momentum to

1) Keep the duel interesting

2) Give a chance to offset a bad hand

3) Make more decks playable etc etc etc

The truth is that most people who like this list like it because they weren't good enough to win under the previous lists but now with skill being unimportant anymore, they beat good players more often. And even if they lose,because there are only 2 skill cards left, it appears to have been a closer game so they are not as miserable at being beaten.

Why would NoC at 2 stop the MSLV2 rush? I played MSLV2 last format along with 2 NoC, and it worked fine.

If Tribe is still good without Sinister, why do people refuse to play cards with discard costs with out it?

I would also like to know why it is when a good player topdecks a Pot of Greed or Dark Hole it is "reversal of momentum", but when a bad player does it it's lucksacking.

I like this list, but I was also good enough last format too. It's nice to have a change in the game for a while.

[WildfireR9]

I find Stray Lambs is a horrible replacement for multiple copies of Scapegoat...

I also find that people should stop searching for replacements for banned cards, or they should stop seeing certain cards as replacements for broken cards, and judge them based off their own merit.

First off, StealthoftheWest, you rock man! Many complements for setting up this thread, and an additional one for the sig.

Seto_kaiba0101, same goes for you. I'm in full agreement with your last statement. People are now much more inclined to try out other possibilities that they knew wouldn't have worked before. I mean water/XYZ/Harpie/DMagician decks, and so on. No they're still not the best by good measure, but now they stand a decent chance.

[PMasterS]

Why would NoC at 2 stop the MSLV2 rush? I played MSLV2 last format along with 2 NoC, and it worked fine.

If Tribe is still good without Sinister, why do people refuse to play cards with discard costs with out it?

I would also like to know why it is when a good player topdecks a Pot of Greed or Dark Hole it is "reversal of momentum", but when a bad player does it it's lucksacking.

I like this list, but I was also good enough last format too. It's nice to have a change in the game for a while.

With Nobleman at 2 many people would not play MS Lv2, they may run a drillroid or NGS to kill face-up defence, but if they could kill facedowns without risking an attack they would.

Tribe is a monster and its destruction is general so less situational. Also people buy into the philosophy of card advantage too much so even a good discard effect is viewed negatively.
Incidentally Chiron the Mage is still used in decks that can support it, so why not Tribe?

I have never accused a topdeck from a bad player as being lucksacking, besides I'm not looking for Chaos Emperor Dragon, but just something that gives you the opportunity to make a come back.

It is nice to have a change in the game, but a change that didn't eradicate 50% of the skill that was left in the game would have been better.

[topspin1617]

With Nobleman at 2 many people would not play MS Lv2, they may run a drillroid or NGS to kill face-up defence, but if they could kill facedowns without risking an attack they would.

Tribe is a monster and its destruction is general so less situational. Also people buy into the philosophy of card advantage too much so even a good discard effect is viewed negatively.
Incidentally Chiron the Mage is still used in decks that can support it, so why not Tribe?

I have never accused a topdeck from a bad player as being lucksacking, besides I'm not looking for Chaos Emperor Dragon, but just something that gives you the opportunity to make a come back.

It is nice to have a change in the game, but a change that didn't eradicate 50% of the skill that was left in the game would have been better.

Yeah, I guess most people wouldn't. But MSLV2 was like my MVP last format, so I would stick with it.

TIV is good, I know, but it bothers me that powerful cards can be looked down upon just for that cost. Some are bad, like TttD, but cards like Lightning Vortex are solid side deck options against swarm decks, IMO. The one discard won't matter mush if you wipe away 3+ monsters. Incidentally, this makes it a good choice against less skilled players who summon more monsters than necessary.

I know you never said anything. It's just that less skilled players seem to get insulted like that when they are able to topdeck something good, but good players don't get the same grief when the same thing happens.

I still don't think 50% of the skill has been lost. John Jensen, Dale Bellido, and Paul Levitin aren't exactly some randoms that won SJCs. Good players are still managing to win, even at the regional level.

[PMasterS]

Yeah, I guess most people wouldn't. But MSLV2 was like my MVP last format, so I would stick with it.

TIV is good, I know, but it bothers me that powerful cards can be looked down upon just for that cost. Some are bad, like TttD, but cards like Lightning Vortex are solid side deck options against swarm decks, IMO. The one discard won't matter mush if you wipe away 3+ monsters. Incidentally, this makes it a good choice against less skilled players who summon more monsters than necessary.

I know you never said anything. It's just that less skilled players seem to get insulted like that when they are able to topdeck something good, but good players don't get the same grief when the same thing happens.

I still don't think 50% of the skill has been lost. John Jensen, Dale Bellido, and Paul Levitin aren't exactly some randoms that won SJCs. Good players are still managing to win, even at the regional level.

I see your point but you can't use consistency as an argument in favour of skill.
Don't forget that in traditional format the same players usually win as well.
Also that could just mean that they are all very good deck builders, but where are the other big names in the SJC's, most of the top 32 finishes don't show up anywhere near consistent, and the same player with the same deck can alternate upto 25 places in different tournaments.

Besides the skill that has been lost is the top range of it, its not so much that the skill has been taken outof the game as a limit has been placed upon it.
You can only be so skillful before regardless of how good you are, you would make the exact same moves in the same situation, therefor there is less of a reward for skill.
If I take myself as an example in last October's list, I had a deck which could match up against the best players in the country ( not that its important but I can pretty much guarantee no one else has ever used it ) but the deck wasn't the end of the skill, when playing against people I continuously came up with new tactics (not startergies) which added another layer of skill to the game as it forced both players to not only not make standard mistakes but also to play with all their wits coming up with new moves or counters to stay in the game; and only the very best players were capable of this. In fact that I played against all list in 5 different regionals only 1 person ever did.
But in this list the moves are blatant 1 for 1's, in which worse players can make mistakes but once you stop making mistakes it is entirely decided by luck of the draw.

[topspin1617]

But in this list the moves are blatant 1 for 1's, in which worse players can make mistakes but once you stop making mistakes it is entirely decided by luck of the draw.

By the way this comes out, I would guess that you think we need more mass removal? Like, get Raigeki and Harpie's Feather Duster back?

[StealthoftheWest]

Now that I think of it, Raigeki could've been rather interesting in this format.

[Kameiko]

First off, StealthoftheWest, you rock man! Many complements for setting up this thread, and an additional one for the sig.

Seto_kaiba0101, same goes for you. I'm in full agreement with your last statement. People are now much more inclined to try out other possibilities that they knew wouldn't have worked before. I mean water/XYZ/Harpie/DMagician decks, and so on. No they're still not the best by good measure, but now they stand a decent chance.

~nods~ I just wish some people would give other decks a shot (Im saying "Some" not everyone runs the dame damn thing) instead of complaning on why the game is supposdely supporting one deck type. Mr. Kevin has tried his best to balance out the banned list to make everyone happy. The current banned list is the same as the japanese one, except some things were added to the english banned list. Not a probelm with that, because I'm sure everyone was tired of seeing the same thing ran all the time (even though that shouldnt have gotten to anybody's heads).

Makyura was banned in the US because of the Call of the haunted and 2 dark chicks, but in japan it was because of Exchange of the spirit (we didnt have this card at the time), but mostly Mr. Kevin just wanted to stay with the Japanese banned list.

Harpie's feather duster, Raigeki, and others will stay on the banned list until something new comes and replaces it. I mean sure we lost all SPELL drawing power, but there is still MONSTER draw cards, if people would stop their B******* and PLAY them! Like that choo choo train card (dekobki the locomotive or something), Dark Mimics, Magical Merchant, Airknight Parsath, and many many more.

Anyways, other decks has ALWAYS been out there, but if people wanted to win they would run the same thing, chaos, chaos, chaos, and more CHAOS!!! But now with the new banned list guess what? Chaos is STILL alive cause of Chaos Sorcerer. People thought that card no one was going to use, but guess what? The Atlanta Shonen jump tournament the WINNER (i think it was yeah) had a chaos sorcerer in his deck.

It is boring seeing the same cards being used, DD Asslaints, Cyber Dragons, DD Warrior Lady, but there is nothing I can do about it, so I just deal with it. Sure its a deck it has a cyber dragon in it, but what deck DOESNT have a cyber Dragon in it? Its an instant special summon. That's what makes it great, because of his effect, but when the cards become abusive something is going to be done about them. Like BLS and Tribe for instance.

So for now all we can do is suck it up, and take it like a man err woman in my case but goes for women too. Will find out on the next banned list whats going ot be put on and taken off, because all we can do right now is play the current banned list out and wait. Oh and if no one likes the new banned list, why dont people go and play traditional.

[TheSavageCanadian]

First off, look at the decks of the SJC winners in this format. Each one has been teched according to the meta, or, in the case of Levitin, is an entirely new concept that blows the metagame out of the water. By pointing out this fact you are agreeing with me that in order to be successful you will have to innovate.

Also people buy into the philosophy of card advantage too much so even a good discard effect is viewed negatively

This is somewhat correct, actually. Players like Dale Bellido and Rhymus Lizo don't care about solid card advantage, but look at the game in a completely different light. These players are so successful because of that. However, the advantage philosophy is very strong, and has helped many players acheive victory.

Thirdly, Chaos Sorcerer is the biggest card in the game right now. There is currently no way to prevent him from grabbing and auto +1 on you without Divine Wrath + Night Assailant. You can grab the advantage back, with a free Zaborg or with a very successful Mobius, but otherwise you're in the dog house. If a good player is using a draw/chaos engine, it's going to be hard to stop.

Lastly, we don't need Raigeki and Harpies Feather Duster banned, but I won't even get into that right now...

[RjAkaPeanut4U]

First off, look at the decks of the SJC winners in this format. Each one has been teched according to the meta, or, in the case of Levitin, is an entirely new concept that blows the metagame out of the water. By pointing out this fact you are agreeing with me that in order to be successful you will have to innovate.



This is somewhat correct, actually. Players like Dale Bellido and Rhymus Lizo don't care about solid card advantage, but look at the game in a completely different light. These players are so successful because of that. However, the advantage philosophy is very strong, and has helped many players acheive victory.

Thirdly, Chaos Sorcerer is the biggest card in the game right now. There is currently no way to prevent him from grabbing and auto +1 on you without Divine Wrath + Night Assailant. You can grab the advantage back, with a free Zaborg or with a very successful Mobius, but otherwise you're in the dog house. If a good player is using a draw/chaos engine, it's going to be hard to stop.

Lastly, we don't need Raigeki and Harpies Feather Duster banned, but I won't even get into that right now...

I think like that too.

[RjAkaPeanut4U]

No...people won duels because they used BLS. With very limited exceptions, for every SJC since April 1st, the top 8 decks had BLS-EotB in it. That MUST be indicative of something for those who no longer have that opportunity to win due to lucky, unfair topdecking.



1. First, you say that this banlist has no way of separating good players from bad ones. The previous ban list was even less efficient at this.

2. The CC isn't Warrior Toolbox...or at least, I think it's still too early to determine what the new CC is. Oh, and the conditions you stated also existed in the last format. Whichever player has the better hand usually wins ANYWAY.



I'm sorry...but, wasn't that what Kevin wanted to accomplish? Your statement confuses me here. What everyone wanted, was a metagame where the same deck wasn't being used over and over again, ad infinitum.



Duh. This was the case in the last format as well!



No.



And the problem is...




WHICH IS WHAT THE MASSES WANT.



There is such a thing as improvement. If you're not eager enough to improve your dueling skills regardless of the situation, then you deserve to lose anyway.




And I would be flabbergasted if your Amazon Sales Ranking surpassed 100,000.

Conspire must have the patience of a saint to keep responding to little nerds like yourself. EVERYTHING. and I mean EVERYTHING you have sad so far was wrong.

[Kameiko]

I can tell you some reasons why Harpies and Raigeki HAVE NOT come off the banned list.

1. They take no skill to play them.
2. They have no costs
3. Their broken
4. We have replacements that are COSTS

[cinci033]

I just want to use my shiny DB1 Pot of Greed again. :(

[Mage King]

There is currently no way to prevent him from grabbing and auto +1 on you without Divine Wrath + Night Assailant.

Lastly, we don't need Raigeki and Harpies Feather Duster banned, but I won't even get into that right now...

Solemn Judgement sees some play in Flip Flop and it makes sorcerer a 1-1, although you are right sorcerer is a big card right now.

I do agree with you though...

Harpies Feather Duster and Raigeki do take skill to play effectively, however cards simply can't get any better than them or at least not involving a combo deck. That means the game can't change.

If the new sets can't compete qualitywise with what has already been released why are they going to make new sets if no one buys it since the cards in them are inferior.

So while they are okay for tourney play, they are bad for the survival of the game.

[StealthoftheWest]

Conspire must have the patience of a saint to keep responding to little nerds like yourself. EVERYTHING. and I mean EVERYTHING you have sad so far was wrong.

I think I'll report you anyway. Learn how to communicate.



Lastly, we don't need Raigeki and Harpies Feather Duster banned, but I won't even get into that right now...

Agreed. If Raigeki + HFD existed, this metagame would be more lovely than it is now.

[Kameiko]

I think I'll report you anyway. Learn how to communicate.




Agreed. If Raigeki + HFD existed, this metagame would be more lovely than it is now.

What makes you think they need to come back? We have Smashing Grounds, Lightning Vortex, Sakretsu Armors, DDWL,DDW, DDA, Mobius, Breaker, Heavy storm, Giant Trunade, MST, Dust Tornado, Sacred Phoneix, Nobleman od Crossout, Mystic Swordman Lv. 2,4, and 6, Drillroid, Ninja Grandmaster Sasuke, Dark Ruler Hades, Legendary Jijtsu Master, and many many other monster/magic/trap negations and removals.

Anyways, what makes you think they need to come back. I'm just curious since people are saying they need to be brought back, but wont give a reason why with all the other stuff we have I just mentioned.

[StealthoftheWest]

What makes you think they need to come back? We have Smashing Grounds, Lightning Vortex, Sakretsu Armors, DDWL,DDW, DDA, Mobius, Breaker, Heavy storm, Giant Trunade, MST, Dust Tornado, Sacred Phoneix, Nobleman od Crossout, Mystic Swordman Lv. 2,4, and 6, Drillroid, Ninja Grandmaster Sasuke, Dark Ruler Hades, Legendary Jijtsu Master, and many many other monster/magic/trap negations and removals.

Anyways, what makes you think they need to come back. I'm just curious since people are saying they need to be brought back, but wont give a reason why with all the other stuff we have I just mentioned.


Cyber Dragon is that reason. Its made summoning 2+ monsters in a turn far too easy.

[Kameiko]

Cyber Dragon is that reason. Its made summoning 2+ monsters in a turn far too easy.

I can see that, but it still can be destroyed very easy. a 2100 attack mosnter that cant stand up to some of the bigger monsters people use like Jinzo (Even though hardly anyone runs him anymore), Mobuis, Spirit reapers, DDWL and other monster cards. Don't get me wrond Cyber Dragon is a very good card and very good tribute in the same turn for either mobuis or Parsath, but theres still that one chance that it wont last on the field for that one turn. Usually its gets BTH before it can do anything, or compulsary (better have call down so they can resummon it), and some others I cant think of right now.

Cyber Dragon is a very unique card, but can still be easily taken out. You can powerbond it with the other two and bring out end dragon, but still can be BTH and removed from the game some how. Sure theres that chance where you cant counter some of the time, but when the monster is tributed for something else like Mobuis and theres a smashing ground in my mand, snatch steal, or something to either take control of it or destroy it.

Then theres the megamorph combo wich is yuck meeehhhh wich I really hate the most, but what about some other cards that have a good enough reason to bring back raigeki and harpies? Harpies isnt going to stop a cyber Dragon (unles sit was with call or something but thats what MST is for)

Oh! Dont take it like im trying to start something here, just having a friendly debate ^^

[RjAkaPeanut4U]

I think I'll report you anyway. Learn how to communicate.

Honestlly kid, I don't give a ***** what you report, I have been banned 15+ times, IP'd like 3 times, I don't follow rules well, and I am not going to be downtalked to by you xD.

So get off your high horse and stay on topic?

[StealthoftheWest]

I can see that, but it still can be destroyed very easy. a 2100 attack mosnter that cant stand up to some of the bigger monsters people use like Jinzo (Even though hardly anyone runs him anymore), Mobuis, Spirit reapers, DDWL and other monster cards. Don't get me wrond Cyber Dragon is a very good card and very good tribute in the same turn for either mobuis or Parsath, but theres still that one chance that it wont last on the field for that one turn. Usually its gets BTH before it can do anything, or compulsary (better have call down so they can resummon it), and some others I cant think of right now.

Yeah, but Cyber Dragon is responsible for Airknight Parshath not being used anymore. Which sucks, because Airknight can pay for itself after one attack.

Cyber Dragon is a very unique card, but can still be easily taken out. You can powerbond it with the other two and bring out end dragon, but still can be BTH and removed from the game some how. Sure theres that chance where you cant counter some of the time, but when the monster is tributed for something else like Mobuis and theres a smashing ground in my mand, snatch steal, or something to either take control of it or destroy it.


Mobius sees more play now, because of an attack value which is higher than Cyber's. Hence, people play it in twos now. Also, the trap count is as high as ever now.

[Kameiko]

Yeah, but Cyber Dragon is responsible for Airknight Parshath not being used anymore. Which sucks, because Airknight can pay for itself after one attack.



Mobius sees more play now, because of an attack value which is higher than Cyber's. Hence, people play it in twos now. Also, the trap count is as high as ever now.

Not really. Even with Cyber Dragons out the trample effect is great. At tournament I go to there still is play with Airknight just not jinzo anymore because hardly one monster stays on the field at all times. I'm surized Airknight hasent seen more play with the lack of spell draw power, but there are also other alternatives other then an airknight. A card is never responsible for another card never being played again (unles its like Gryphon wing or anti Raigeki or something along those lines, but those see play too in traditional (Well only new people who started YGO!)).

I agree with you on Mobuis, and the trap count is high because no one sees a use to Jinzo anymore. Royal Decree is seeing less play now (from what I seen, but I dont know why). People complain about certain cards but never do anything about it. I cant fit Jinzo in a last turn deck bleh that mess up everything, but other decks I try to fit him in there.

[StealthoftheWest]

I agree with you on Mobuis, and the trap count is high because no one sees a use to Jinzo anymore. Royal Decree is seeing less play now (from what I seen, but I dont know why). People complain about certain cards but never do anything about it. I cant fit Jinzo in a last turn deck bleh that mess up everything, but other decks I try to fit him in there.


Jinzo has but faded into the background now...how sad.

I remember back, when it was the all the rage...

...2 months ago.

[TheSavageCanadian]

Solemn Judgement

I stand corrected.

[Paladinseer007]

I just want to use my shiny DB1 Pot of Greed again. :(

Yes, I know what you mean, because it's really stupid to me that they would ban a card that let's you draw two cards, and people automactically think that it is a threat. :D

[DoctorNik]

You know why I hate this format? Really?

Because overextensive players that aren't good can get away with it. They can set 3 cards safely without me 2 for 1ing them and really making them pay for their mistakes. It's ok for players to drop Cyber + another monster + already have 1 monster. I won't have anything to stop this act of restless aggro. el oh el. Traditional Format was the best version of punishing bad players. This format, if your opponent has used Torrent + Hole, I can summon 5 monsters with nothing to fear.
well said,

they banned/restricted a few cards that are needed in this format, namely
m. force
metamorphosis
tribe
sinister
tsukiyomi

they made a few right calls though, imo, namely
duo, pot, graceful, bls, ring, limiter
and unbanning d. hole

my "meh" pile (in other words dont care that much for losing them)
goats, m.o.f., they're just not powerful with this list

and cyber dragon is kinda dumb, I dont mind DDA as much cuz at least you can use DD survivor, but there no good counter to cyber D

You are so clueless... I give up.

Why do I try to help you noobs at all?
<3 Matt
Sometimes I ask myself the same thing...

[Kameiko]

Jinzo has but faded into the background now...how sad.

I remember back, when it was the all the rage...

...2 months ago.

lol. Doesnt seem that long does it? I saw a lot of Jinzo's today and I was like mehhhh...but oh well.

[Pemolis]

well said,

they banned/restricted a few cards that are needed in this format, namely
m. force
metamorphosis
tribe
sinister
tsukiyomi

they made a few right calls though, imo, namely
duo, pot, graceful, bls, ring, limiter
and unbanning d. hole

my "meh" pile (in other words dont care that much for losing them)
goats, m.o.f., they're just not powerful with this list

and cyber dragon is kinda dumb, I dont mind DDA as much cuz at least you can use DD survivor, but there no good counter to cyber D


<3 Matt
Sometimes I ask myself the same thing...


What is the reason why these cards should be allowed in the Advanced format? They are allowed in Traditional and at anytime anybody can go and play the traditional format. Its not like they said, "You cannot use these cards for any reason at all". There is an entire format which can utilize these cards.

Why spread that into the Advanced format?

What is the reason?

[blockofcheese]

Personally i like the ban list...i mean less pressure on my decks and all like what to have and what not to have...plus if they ever unban raigeki..im gonna rip somone in two...that was the cheapest thing ever

[Kameiko]

Personally i like the ban list...i mean less pressure on my decks and all like what to have and what not to have...plus if they ever unban raigeki..im gonna rip somone in two...that was the cheapest thing ever

eh it won't be off for a while. We still have a number of mass removals out there already.

[buncxs_2]

if they ever unban raigeki at least they should ban dark hole i mean dark hole is too powerfull almost like raigeki

[Ice_Master_Ryu]

I said hole. And the rest of those cards don't punnish me for having 5 monsters on the field at all. el oh el.


yes but :cool: dont forget Cyber jar, Ceasefire, and Guardian sphinx.

[TheSavageCanadian]

Don't worry, silly scrubs, they won't unban Raigeki. Noobs have no idea how to handle that card being legal. And since somewhere around 90-95% of the Yu-Gi-Oh! players are noobs, UDE will of course try to keep you happy by not letting you dlck around with a card you can't handle.

It's ok for players to drop Cyber + another monster + already have 1 monster.

They call this cheating.

[PMasterS]

By the way this comes out, I would guess that you think we need more mass removal? Like, get Raigeki and Harpie's Feather Duster back?

No I don't mean them, They were too much, but how about something like TIV, PoG, Mirror Force.

They were all good but not too good, and there are probably others.

Even Magical Scientist required skill to use right.

[PMasterS]

What is the reason why these cards should be allowed in the Advanced format? They are allowed in Traditional and at anytime anybody can go and play the traditional format. Its not like they said, "You cannot use these cards for any reason at all". There is an entire format which can utilize these cards.

Why spread that into the Advanced format?

What is the reason?

I wish the ignorant would stop using this as an excuse to needlessly ban cards because they aren't good enough to handle them.

Some of the banned cards shouldn't have been as they required skill to use and could effectively keep the turnabut of play between 2 skilled opponent going so the duel didn't get stale.

I don't mean Raigeki or HFD, simply because if yoor opponent already has the advantage, and they draw this just when you play a monster which could set up a come-back used rightly or a non-chainable trap, or a permanent magic then it could stop you in your path.

But the watering down of these cards in Lightning Vortex etc, does not improve them in this light. If your opponent has the advantage then the cost of a card hurts so much that it is not likely to allow you to make a come back at all.

[Iron butterfly]

SpellJammer stopped taking anything Konami does seriously on thier supposed "ban-list" after they banned Pot of Greed. Every cardgame has thier own version of Pot of Greed and it's a basic entity common among any cardgame, not to meation why do they bother making a support card for Pot of Greed if they're going to ban it in advanced format? Only an idiot would use such a weak creature if standard format.. Not to meation that monster card as a whole is lame, it should've been something like "everytime you use a spell card that would allow you to draw a card you may draw one extra card".

But then, the creators of Yugioh were incompetant from the start. Pretending like BEWD never exsisted, countiusly making fusions/rituals which 98% of the time suck, allowing some cards to be grossly stronger then other cards of the same level and type, and the whole level system is messed up.

But still people follow them like cows to the slaughter.. Then people wonder why some commit suicide and giveup thier lives for a cult.. It's so easy to sway the weak-minded..

[StealthoftheWest]

Don't worry, silly scrubs, they won't unban Raigeki. Noobs have no idea how to handle that card being legal. And since somewhere around 90-95% of the Yu-Gi-Oh! players are noobs, UDE will of course try to keep you happy by not letting you dlck around with a card you can't handle.



People don't know how to "handle" Raigeki? Don't you mean "use"?

And wouldn't you like to elaborate on that statement?

[Kopaka of Ice]

I wish the ignorant would stop using this as an excuse to needlessly ban cards because they aren't good enough to handle them.

Some of the banned cards shouldn't have been as they required skill to use and could effectively keep the turnabut of play between 2 skilled opponent going so the duel didn't get stale.

I don't mean Raigeki or HFD, simply because if yoor opponent already has the advantage, and they draw this just when you play a monster which could set up a come-back used rightly or a non-chainable trap, or a permanent magic then it could stop you in your path.

But the watering down of these cards in Lightning Vortex etc, does not improve them in this light. If your opponent has the advantage then the cost of a card hurts so much that it is not likely to allow you to make a come back at all.
Uh, lets see. Here's how the chain works. People lose continuously> they get frustrated > they quit the game. Most of the cards that are on the list create unfair advantages for no real cost. You work hard to summon 3-5 monsters and then your opponent "punishes" you by playing one card without a cost. That's not fair to really anyone, especially the "weaker" players. And if the players keep quitting the game slows down and eventually dies off. You call people ignorant because they say "That's why we have Traditional." Why is that? Traditional is a basis which allows the Advanced format to fix the problems of the card game while people who want to use the cards can legally use them.

I've been playing this game since the days of LOB, I've watched it evolve into the state it's in now and I've seen all kinds of points of view on the subject of Yu-Gi-Oh! as it did so. From my experience, people get extremely frustrated when a person just says "Raigeki" or "Harpie's Feather Duster" and boom, the game is pretty much over from there. There really wasn't too much skill behind it, just knowledge of how to be cheap. I wasn't a person who lost too much because of these cards, I actually won a bunch of duels against people who used the cards. I only used Monster Reborn and Witch of the Black Forest for a very long time too because I didn't have access to cards like Pot of Greed and Yatagarasu and Injection Fairy Lily.

I will admit, Chaos Emperor Dragon + Sangan/Witch + Yatagarasu's combo did use some skill. But that was basically common sense within a combo more than skill. Magical Scientist created many unfair advantages with its effect. You could argue that the 1000 life points is a hefty price but you only need 1 or 2 cards to get back 4 turns worth of one-time usage.

Sure, there is no ability to make a comeback out of cards like Lightning Vortex when you're topdecking but if you're getting crushed by your opponent, I don't really expect a victory anyways. Even if you do knock someone stronger than you off balance in real life, when you're beaten down and bloody, chances are you're probably going to feel too weak to really fight back from there. Example, if you're on the ground then a car is about to run you over and it swerves out of the way/misses you for some reason chances are, if that driver is really intent on running you over, the car is going to come back and try to run you over again.

[WildfireR9]

eh it won't be off for a while. We still have a number of mass removals out there already.

If I remember the ruling correctly, Raigeki literally takes no skill and judgment to play. You can't play it if your opponent has no monsters on the field right? In that case, it's physically impossible to play Raigeki horribly, because minimal case scenario you make a 1-1 trade. Guys are saying that banning of Raigeki allows "newbie's" with no skill to get away with stuff. My question is simply, how?? LVortex takes FAR more judgement to play and comes with a cost, which forces the player to THINK whether it's worth it or not. The key word is the one I types in all caps.

Now, for DHole. Man, I personally disagreed with the unbanning of this card, but I can understand the argument for bringing it back. With a slower game pace, the presence of elemental searchers, and monsters that are harder to kill in battle (i.e. Spirit Reaper), they felt the need to bring it back because there's a need for more massive removal than just TTribute. Doesn't bother me too much, plus there are more monsters that are practically if not literally immune to its effect! (i.e. SPhoenix, VLord, SilentMagician, Horus, etc.)

[L2theZ]

Uh, lets see. Here's how the chain works. People lose continuously> they get frustrated > they quit the game. Most of the cards that are on the list create unfair advantages for no real cost. You work hard to summon 3-5 monsters and then your opponent "punishes" you by playing one card without a cost. That's not fair to really anyone, especially the "weaker" players.

If you know your opponet can play one card and wipe out your field why did you summon 3-5 monsters to begin with? Why because they don't think far enough ahead, then they lose and they ask for them to be banned.

Are Raigeki and HFD extremly powerfu? Yes
Do they completly halt the game growing? Yes
Have we really done anything to make the game grow since they've been banned? No

This is where Peddle's argument about people not liking this because they're horrible at deckbuilding, and these people are the same ones who got rocked because they summoned 3-5 monsters when the opponet knows they have Raigkei in their deck. Personally I do think they need to be banned for the fact that they don't allow to game to develop, but we haven't done anything since they're been banned to advance the game, but because people keep complaining they won't be brought back, so this whole argument is pointless.

[DoctorNik]

What is the reason why these cards should be allowed in the Advanced format? They are allowed in Traditional and at anytime anybody can go and play the traditional format. Its not like they said, "You cannot use these cards for any reason at all". There is an entire format which can utilize these cards.

Why spread that into the Advanced format?

What is the reason?
Because
#1 I like to play in a format that allows skilled players to win most games.
#2 I like to play in a format that rewards people with prizes and recognition.
#3 I like to play in a challenging environment against the world's best.

As far as I'm concerned, traditional does not exist. I have no interest in playing a format with no prizes and dominated by 7 year olds with BEWD/Lord of D/Flute of the Summoning Dragon decks.

[PMasterS]

Uh, lets see. Here's how the chain works. People lose continuously> they get frustrated > they quit the game. Most of the cards that are on the list create unfair advantages for no real cost. You work hard to summon 3-5 monsters and then your opponent "punishes" you by playing one card without a cost. That's not fair to really anyone, especially the "weaker" players. And if the players keep quitting the game slows down and eventually dies off. You call people ignorant because they say "That's why we have Traditional." Why is that? Traditional is a basis which allows the Advanced format to fix the problems of the card game while people who want to use the cards can legally use them.

I've been playing this game since the days of LOB, I've watched it evolve into the state it's in now and I've seen all kinds of points of view on the subject of Yu-Gi-Oh! as it did so. From my experience, people get extremely frustrated when a person just says "Raigeki" or "Harpie's Feather Duster" and boom, the game is pretty much over from there. There really wasn't too much skill behind it, just knowledge of how to be cheap. I wasn't a person who lost too much because of these cards, I actually won a bunch of duels against people who used the cards. I only used Monster Reborn and Witch of the Black Forest for a very long time too because I didn't have access to cards like Pot of Greed and Yatagarasu and Injection Fairy Lily.

I will admit, Chaos Emperor Dragon + Sangan/Witch + Yatagarasu's combo did use some skill. But that was basically common sense within a combo more than skill. Magical Scientist created many unfair advantages with its effect. You could argue that the 1000 life points is a hefty price but you only need 1 or 2 cards to get back 4 turns worth of one-time usage.

Sure, there is no ability to make a comeback out of cards like Lightning Vortex when you're topdecking but if you're getting crushed by your opponent, I don't really expect a victory anyways. Even if you do knock someone stronger than you off balance in real life, when you're beaten down and bloody, chances are you're probably going to feel too weak to really fight back from there. Example, if you're on the ground then a car is about to run you over and it swerves out of the way/misses you for some reason chances are, if that driver is really intent on running you over, the car is going to come back and try to run you over again.


I said that Raigeki and HFD were unfair, but if someone is too stupid to play there cards according to what their opponent could play agianst them then they aren't very good anyway.
And what about the cards that UDE says are too strong for Advanced but aren't strong enough for Traditional eh?
Also Traditional was for people who didn't want to have cards forbidden, Advanced was supposed to be more skillful, hence the bannings but its actually less skillful than traditional at the moment.

Chaos Emperor Dragon did not involve skill in its yata combo, it was the least skillful play the game has ever seen, and I include playing Raigeki by itself.

In fact because you just said so Kazuki Takahashi is spinning in his grave, and he's not even dead yet!

And guess what, I've been playing since shortly before LoB came out, I even made my own cards before I even knew about the card game from the T.V show so me and my friend could duel each other, so anything you think experience has taught you, I know.

This is supposed to be a game of skill and stratergy so you should be able to, through smart play, make a come back if your opponent gets lucky or you get unlucky, or even if they make a good move you hadn't anticipated. The game shouldn't be decided from one good or lucky move.

And all that you wrote about a car was pointless, and incorrect.
I take it no one has ever tried to knock you over in a car, but when they do its quite easy to avoid, after all its a lot less maneouverable than you are.

[Kopaka of Ice]

Chaos Emperor Dragon did not involve skill in its yata combo, it was the least skillful play the game has ever seen, and I include playing Raigeki by itself.

In fact because you just said so Kazuki Takahashi is spinning in his grave, and he's not even dead yet!

And guess what, I've been playing since shortly before LoB came out, I even made my own cards before I even knew about the card game from the T.V show so me and my friend could duel each other, so anything you think experience has taught you, I know.

This is supposed to be a game of skill and stratergy so you should be able to, through smart play, make a come back if your opponent gets lucky or you get unlucky, or even if they make a good move you hadn't anticipated. The game shouldn't be decided from one good or lucky move.

And all that you wrote about a car was pointless, and incorrect.
I take it no one has ever tried to knock you over in a car, but when they do its quite easy to avoid, after all its a lot less maneouverable than you are.
I said some skill. The key word is some. The only amount of skill was within getting CED out with Sangan/Witch and choosing Yatagarasu. Like I said, the combo's "skill" is outweighed by the common sense. Also, knowing how to do the combo might help the skill part a tiny bit. I in no way support the combo other than the use of a Dragon card that could have potentially just been good and not overpowered. I apologize to Kazuki Takahashi for disturbing his future resting in peace but I did have to point it out. And it's good to know that you at least know what I'm talking about, or at leeast semi-understand it.

I agree, this is supposed to be a game of skill and strategy. However, there is also strategy in fighting with the car or anything else really. Your mind may seem to go blank but your body makes and implements the strategies as quickly as it can and your brain allows it.

Yes, a smart move should be able to get you back on track but certain cards on the list just plain overkill it and dumb it down. For instance, a topdecked Fiber Jar would completely reset the field, hand and graveyard. That must be extremely annoying to have to redo that entire strategy, but I can see where that might be really unworthy of ban. Makyura the Destructor only got a month before getting sniped in the head by a bullet I believe should have been for BLS-E. I find this was a bit unfair as the only current combo for this required 2 restricted cards and 1 or more unrestricted cards. There are other cards that might have been overkilled, but those two come to my mind immediately.

The car thing? I'm not sure if I can dodge a car going 30-50 mph while I'm on the ground. There's all kinds of cars too so either way, both our points on the car can be nullified unless we actually test it out with couple or more different cars and probably 2 or more people.

[topspin1617]

No I don't mean them, They were too much, but how about something like TIV, PoG, Mirror Force.

They were all good but not too good, and there are probably others.

Even Magical Scientist required skill to use right.

I could see thouse coming back.

Magical Scientist did require some skill, if we are not talking about the OTK. It is the ultimate swiss army knife, but can be very costly.

[AmebaFTW]

This list means that no deck works as they are all too unreliable as they depend too much on the luck of the draw to set them up.

This has led to the less intelligent ( not insulting merely meaning those not abnormally intelligent ) to believe that any deck can work as they see many decks winning with completely different builds.
The truth is that this is occurring due to the uniform unplayability of any deck.

And also I would like to point out that no one as of yet has been able to make a unanimously agreed upon argument as to what is so good about this format.

How about instead of asking us to justify ourselves you make an argument and we'll show you where you're wrong?

Although I back the ban list, and I did enjoy the change from Traditional when it hit.

And no, I didn't enjoy the change cause I got "owned" by the cookie cutters, me or few friends won every tournament we went to using the obviously successful hand control yata-lock crap in Traditional, and although winning is fun, doing it like that gets old fast...

So yeah, back in Traditional it was kinda all about hand control, and when 2 players with virtually the same decks competed, it was really alot about luck of the draw, HOWEVER, skill did play a significant part. I always enjoyed playing shocking moves (although they were rare in traditional) which made my opponents wonder, and vice versa. I always enjoy seeing someone kick my arse with some fantastically crazy move.

I'll say I was probably happier in traditional for alot of reasons. Other than the "holy trinity" or "unholy trinity" (whichever), which I enjoyed getting, did not enjoy getting it used on me though.

This quoted post I have here sort of makes me doubt Advanced. I love balance, I'm a huge fan of balance, I love luck being taken out of the equasion as much as possible for ANY competitive game, but his post makes sense.

Now there's less support for decks and it's horribly reliant on starting hand and top decks.

Sure, it's "skill" to build a deck with a high "good topdeck" percentage, however, that's why there is the cookie cutter cyber dragon/warrior (assailants and such) crap. Or the Gravekeeper Spies.

Searchers should always be key in my opinion, as they're not powerful beatsticks, it does require planning and thinking to use them effectively (to a degree...).

But there's still not a huge difference between the 2 formats, although in Traditional you could recover from a bad hand quickly.

Traditional was more balanced than Advanced before the Chaos Monsters came into the picture

Why? Because every Traditional deck had a plethora of unbelievably broken cards.

Now if EVERY card in EVERY deck is overpowered, then that's exactly what balance is.

However in traditional, we have Torrential Tribute (free mass destruction, easily used by any newbie, and easily obtained in common form), Heavy Storm (same as Torrential, it's a matter of who's lucky enough to get it when the opponent gets a handful of traps), Dark Hole (not sure why they brought it back...although without reborn it's more controlled than in Traditional)....and Snatch Steal .

Having 4 out of 40 cards being overpowered is NOT balance...

Now although Snatch Steal is very debatable, given it's permanent placement on the field for it's effect being easily destroyed by Breaker/Mobius/Heavy/Typhoon/etc.....it's all situational.

The situations which arise are completely out of the players control.

It's sheer bad luck when all of your m/t destruction cards (and I play with every logical destruction card, including 2 Mobius's, and this happens all the time) are at the bottom of your deck and you can draw and draw and not get them.... it's not your opponents "skill" or crafty deck building which made him kill you in 3 turns by snatch stealing your Mobius or Jinzo and beating you down for a few turns.

Brain Control is simple, no matter what the situation, you will pay 800 Life Points (don't even say Spell Economics, I mean realistic situations), whereas with Snatch Steal, it can be nearly as retardedly broken as Change of Heart.

Sure, Change of Heart will always hold the crown for King card of brokenness against Snatch, but see, Change of Heart was good in 99% of the situations, whereas snatch steal could prove devestating just by chance , AND I HATE THAT.

I don't want to lose because my opponent has 100 life points and my Mobius is staring him down, only to have him top deck a snatch steal and win because my next top deck was a Nobleman of Crossout.

I hate the gigantic Luck Factor. In Traditional, having a cookie cutter broken hand control deck + my skill (I'm not saying I'm some godly player, but I definatley know how to play with my experience) I was only beatable by players with the same fierce hand control decks.

However in this format, I can easily lose to a Dark Magician deck some kid is playing by horrid luck because it's no longer in the players control.

(Sorry this post is turning out so huge, trying to be thorough and cover all bases).

Heavy Storm destroying 2-3 M/T's in a single turn because you set them to cover all situations is quite unfair.

It's not skill or talent to draw Heavy Storm. In this format, there's only 1 mass M/T Destruction card, so your odds to draw it are not very high. What if you draw it when your opponent HAPPENED to get ALL monsters in his hand? Bad luck, or skill? Come on...

Deck constructions and playing your cards properly in Traditional was more important. Now almost any deck can win, which is a good thing at first, until you realize a 10 year old can win because you drew nothing but Heavy Storm, Dust Tornado, Typhoon, 2 Mobius's and Nobleman of Crossout in your first hand, whilst he has 2 Marauding Captain's, 2 Berzerk Gorilla's and a United We Stand.

Yeah, I could top deck my way out of that, if I were to be insanely lucky, but what're the odds heh.

I play with my tomato's, as I always have. I play with 2, not 3. I play with 16-20 Monsters (I change my deck frequently out of bordem), so don't try to tell me it's my deck ratio that's poor, I only play with 2 Mobius' as tributes, and yet hands like this are inevitable. However, from my memory of Traditional, hands like this didn't seem like a burden. I don't recall ever getting such an awful hand that I couldn't get out of it within a couple turns....

I dunno. I say more power to the Advanced Format, but they sincerely need to remove the 4 cards I've listed above. Snatch Steal can come at no cost, just steal their monster, sacrifice it for yours, and boom, you gain control due to luck of the draw and a situation your opponent has 0% chance to change due to...again...luck of the draw.

Me and my friends play frequently, and it's never a steady win ratio. It's a luck war. I'm sick of getting a huge field advantage, only to have it taken away by playing Dark Hole, which any brainless idiot can do.

It would be different if powerful cards were rare as hell, like on the show, but now just about every devestatingly powerful card is easily obtained by anyone, anytime, anywhere.


where was the fun of playing against very little other than Goat Control decks when you went to an SJC or regionals?

Goat control was fun destroying with Windstorm of Etaqua/Asura Priest and Airknight, don't lie, you know it was! :P



And there's my chapter on "Things that I feel the urge to whine about".

Keep an eye out for Chapter 2!

[Pemolis]

I wish the ignorant would stop using this as an excuse to needlessly ban cards because they aren't good enough to handle them.

Some of the banned cards shouldn't have been as they required skill to use and could effectively keep the turnabut of play between 2 skilled opponent going so the duel didn't get stale.

I don't mean Raigeki or HFD, simply because if yoor opponent already has the advantage, and they draw this just when you play a monster which could set up a come-back used rightly or a non-chainable trap, or a permanent magic then it could stop you in your path.

But the watering down of these cards in Lightning Vortex etc, does not improve them in this light. If your opponent has the advantage then the cost of a card hurts so much that it is not likely to allow you to make a come back at all.


Actually this is not the excuse, this is the reason. There are two formats created, one that appeals to players who like to use every card that is available in the game (traditional), and those who like to have some restrictions on what cards can be used in a game (advanced). Compare what the game was like before it was split up into the traditional format. Then look at how the traditional format ran (because we had that before the advance format even existed).

There already exists a means that fits everybody's arguement here (that is the traditoinal format). What I cannot get is why people want to throw the Traditional Format Cards into the Advanced format. The advanced format is suppost to focus more on creativity with deck building and the ability to adapt to a ever changing ruleset of cards you can and cannot use. This tests a player's ability to adapt as the game adapts. Eventually more and more cards will be restricted/banned in the advanced format. And for players who want to deal with that restriction, I say is FINE. LET THEM.

You all have the Traditional Format which does not follow those restrictions. You can play that. Why bleed the traditional cards over to the advanced format.. Skill? There are different levels of that.

Your version of skill involves the effectiveness of a person using a specific card. That is traditional.

My version of skill involves a person adapting to the changes and strategies a person uses in a varying amounts of different cards (like someone using spiritualism instead of MST). That is advanced.

Skill is not the excuse and noob people are not the excuse. Please do not use them as your reason because they are not adequate and do not reflect the actual purpose of the advanced format.



You have an entire format. Use that and stop trying to move it into the advanced format. Advanced involves adaptation of your deck and strategies every 6 months or so. Moving cards off the banlist does not help in deck building and creativity. It only helps in restricting card pools and available slots in the already staple based deck.


I somewhat believe that the reason people here are complaining is that there are no Official Traditional Format Tournaments. I believe that might be the only reason.

[StealthoftheWest]

Actually this is not the excuse, this is the reason. There are two formats created, one that appeals to players who like to use every card that is available in the game (traditional), and those who like to have some restrictions on what cards can be used in a game (advanced). Compare what the game was like before it was split up into the traditional format. Then look at how the traditional format ran (because we had that before the advance format even existed).

There already exists a means that fits everybody's arguement here (that is the traditoinal format). What I cannot get is why people want to throw the Traditional Format Cards into the Advanced format. The advanced format is suppost to focus more on creativity with deck building and the ability to adapt to a ever changing ruleset of cards you can and cannot use. This tests a player's ability to adapt as the game adapts. Eventually more and more cards will be restricted/banned in the advanced format. And for players who want to deal with that restriction, I say is FINE. LET THEM.

You all have the Traditional Format which does not follow those restrictions. You can play that. Why bleed the traditional cards over to the advanced format.. Skill? There are different levels of that.

Your version of skill involves the effectiveness of a person using a specific card. That is traditional.

My version of skill involves a person adapting to the changes and strategies a person uses in a varying amounts of different cards (like someone using spiritualism instead of MST). That is advanced.

Skill is not the excuse and noob people are not the excuse. Please do not use them as your reason because they are not adequate and do not reflect the actual purpose of the advanced format.



You have an entire format. Use that and stop trying to move it into the advanced format. Advanced involves adaptation of your deck and strategies every 6 months or so. Moving cards off the banlist does not help in deck building and creativity. It only helps in restricting card pools and available slots in the already staple based deck.


I somewhat believe that the reason people here are complaining is that there are no Official Traditional Format Tournaments. I believe that might be the only reason.


EXACTLY.


Really now, people need to stop whining about the Advanced Format, and how it doesn't cater to their selfish desires...

[DoctorNik]

EXACTLY.


Really now, people need to stop whining about the Advanced Format, and how it doesn't cater to their selfish desires...
:(
You are so clueless... I give up.

Why do I try to help you noobs at all?
quoted for emphasis

[PMasterS]

Actually this is not the excuse, this is the reason. There are two formats created, one that appeals to players who like to use every card that is available in the game (traditional), and those who like to have some restrictions on what cards can be used in a game (advanced). Compare what the game was like before it was split up into the traditional format. Then look at how the traditional format ran (because we had that before the advance format even existed).

There already exists a means that fits everybody's arguement here (that is the traditoinal format). What I cannot get is why people want to throw the Traditional Format Cards into the Advanced format. The advanced format is suppost to focus more on creativity with deck building and the ability to adapt to a ever changing ruleset of cards you can and cannot use. This tests a player's ability to adapt as the game adapts. Eventually more and more cards will be restricted/banned in the advanced format. And for players who want to deal with that restriction, I say is FINE. LET THEM.

You all have the Traditional Format which does not follow those restrictions. You can play that. Why bleed the traditional cards over to the advanced format.. Skill? There are different levels of that.

Your version of skill involves the effectiveness of a person using a specific card. That is traditional.

My version of skill involves a person adapting to the changes and strategies a person uses in a varying amounts of different cards (like someone using spiritualism instead of MST). That is advanced.

Skill is not the excuse and noob people are not the excuse. Please do not use them as your reason because they are not adequate and do not reflect the actual purpose of the advanced format.



You have an entire format. Use that and stop trying to move it into the advanced format. Advanced involves adaptation of your deck and strategies every 6 months or so. Moving cards off the banlist does not help in deck building and creativity. It only helps in restricting card pools and available slots in the already staple based deck.


I somewhat believe that the reason people here are complaining is that there are no Official Traditional Format Tournaments. I believe that might be the only reason.



Thart's it!
I Give up all over again.

What's the point of trying to beat some sense into these idiots? At the end of it all they've still not listened to what you say and are just as clueless as before.

I'm out of this Moronfest of a thread, and good luck to all the imbeciles who agree with stealth of the west and pemolis, after all if you're that stupid you'll need it just to tie your shoelaces.

[StealthoftheWest]

Thart's it!
I Give up all over again.

What's the point of trying to beat some sense into these idiots? At the end of it all they've still not listened to what you say and are just as clueless as before.

I'm out of this Moronfest of a thread, and good luck to all the imbeciles who agree with stealth of the west and pemolis, after all if you're that stupid you'll need it just to tie your shoelaces.


Clearly, you don't understand what I'm saying.

Not that I care, mind you. Good riddance.

[Pemolis]

Thart's it!
I Give up all over again.

What's the point of trying to beat some sense into these idiots? At the end of it all they've still not listened to what you say and are just as clueless as before.

I'm out of this Moronfest of a thread, and good luck to all the imbeciles who agree with stealth of the west and pemolis, after all if you're that stupid you'll need it just to tie your shoelaces.

Lets see, I come up with a constructive argument, you call me an idiot and a imbecile?... ok then...

Doors to your right.

[L2theZ]

Clearly, you don't understand what I'm saying.

Not that I care, mind you. Good riddance.

And you made a thread asking for reasons as to why this format is bad (and it is, don't kid yourself) and you won't actully listen to any of our points, and the only points you've made have reinforced ours.

To make thigs very simple this format is horrible, and I think we should all be a bit happier when April rolls around.

[Romancer]

I'm not a hater of this ban list. In fact, I think it's the best list to date, but I don't think it was taken far enough, so I'm bitter over some of the missed issues Konami could have addressed, since they were already present. I personally think that this list was a step in the right direction, but not a complete success. Konami should be preparing to make the next step, and they need to make it a full step, not a little half step. 6 months is too long to have to deal with half steps.

Free 1:1 monster removal is the biggest problem right now, IMO. With so much of it floating around, it is guranteed a monster won't live for more than a few turns, and that severely limits a lot of good printed cards from doing well, even in this format. This is a level playing field for the most part, but for those kinds of monsters, this is still a mountian. With D.D. Assailants, 1 D.D. Warrior Lady, and now 3 D.D. Warriors running around, it means you practically have to have a dozen free 1:1 monster removal cards in your deck or else you risk losing lots of advantage (the monsters destroyed by the 2 bigger D.D.s and the monster that destroys them). A tribute monster loses even more advantage, and a nomi doesn't stand a chance in hell of winning unless it is a 1TK nomi like Red Eyes Darkness Dragon or Neo Daedalus. I think it's ridiculous that decks are overflowing with cheap thoughtless answers to any monster, when the game should be geared more towards thinking and strategy in this format. There are a ton of good combo cards to use out there, but no one is going to play them while there are free thoughtless choices available. Even if the D.D.s were addressed, Konami should have seen free 1:1 monster destroyers as the next major threat, since it is the same situation as back when the game was in its infantcy (Trap Holes x3 and Fissures along with Mirror Force). As long as there are these costless cards that can do so much with very little drawbacks, the game won't go as far as it could.

[Pemolis]

I'm not a hater of this ban list. In fact, I think it's the best list to date, but I don't think it was taken far enough, so I'm bitter over some of the missed issues Konami could have addressed, since they were already present. I personally think that this list was a step in the right direction, but not a complete success. Konami should be preparing to make the next step, and they need to make it a full step, not a little half step. 6 months is too long to have to deal with half steps.

Free 1:1 monster removal is the biggest problem right now, IMO. With so much of it floating around, it is guranteed a monster won't live for more than a few turns, and that severely limits a lot of good printed cards from doing well, even in this format. This is a level playing field for the most part, but for those kinds of monsters, this is still a mountian. With D.D. Assailants, 1 D.D. Warrior Lady, and now 3 D.D. Warriors running around, it means you practically have to have a dozen free 1:1 monster removal cards in your deck or else you risk losing lots of advantage (the monsters destroyed by the 2 bigger D.D.s and the monster that destroys them). A tribute monster loses even more advantage, and a nomi doesn't stand a chance in hell of winning unless it is a 1TK nomi like Red Eyes Darkness Dragon or Neo Daedalus. I think it's ridiculous that decks are overflowing with cheap thoughtless answers to any monster, when the game should be geared more towards thinking and strategy in this format. There are a ton of good combo cards to use out there, but no one is going to play them while there are free thoughtless choices available. Even if the D.D.s were addressed, Konami should have seen free 1:1 monster destroyers as the next major threat, since it is the same situation as back when the game was in its infantcy (Trap Holes x3 and Fissures along with Mirror Force). As long as there are these costless cards that can do so much with very little drawbacks, the game won't go as far as it could.


You are a wise and very informed person Romancer.

[The Punisher]

To make thigs very simple this format is horrible, and I think we should all be a bit happier when April rolls around.

Actually, if they keep up with the habit to ban and restrict anything that's overplayed, the next format will look nothing like Traditional - and so, I don't think whichever people you call "we" will be very pleased with that.

[Kameiko]

Actually this is not the excuse, this is the reason. There are two formats created, one that appeals to players who like to use every card that is available in the game (traditional), and those who like to have some restrictions on what cards can be used in a game (advanced). Compare what the game was like before it was split up into the traditional format. Then look at how the traditional format ran (because we had that before the advance format even existed).

There already exists a means that fits everybody's arguement here (that is the traditoinal format). What I cannot get is why people want to throw the Traditional Format Cards into the Advanced format. The advanced format is suppost to focus more on creativity with deck building and the ability to adapt to a ever changing ruleset of cards you can and cannot use. This tests a player's ability to adapt as the game adapts. Eventually more and more cards will be restricted/banned in the advanced format. And for players who want to deal with that restriction, I say is FINE. LET THEM.

You all have the Traditional Format which does not follow those restrictions. You can play that. Why bleed the traditional cards over to the advanced format.. Skill? There are different levels of that.

Your version of skill involves the effectiveness of a person using a specific card. That is traditional.

My version of skill involves a person adapting to the changes and strategies a person uses in a varying amounts of different cards (like someone using spiritualism instead of MST). That is advanced.

Skill is not the excuse and noob people are not the excuse. Please do not use them as your reason because they are not adequate and do not reflect the actual purpose of the advanced format.



You have an entire format. Use that and stop trying to move it into the advanced format. Advanced involves adaptation of your deck and strategies every 6 months or so. Moving cards off the banlist does not help in deck building and creativity. It only helps in restricting card pools and available slots in the already staple based deck.


I somewhat believe that the reason people here are complaining is that there are no Official Traditional Format Tournaments. I believe that might be the only reason.

Lol. So true on many things.


Actually this is not the excuse, this is the reason. There are two formats created, one that appeals to players who like to use every card that is available in the game (traditional), and those who like to have some restrictions on what cards can be used in a game (advanced). Compare what the game was like before it was split up into the traditional format. Then look at how the traditional format ran (because we had that before the advance format even existed).


Before it split into two formats, it was all about two advantages. 1. Scientist and 2. Chaos. Nothing else was ever run in the meta before a forbidden list ever came out. Even people today that run traditional is usually chaos or scientist. People complain why Konami (or UDE whoever makes them I dont care) made these forbidden cards to even begin with is because there was never a forbidden list to begin with. No one new these cards were going to become staples in everyones deck. Now, since everyone is moaning about how the game has gone down hill Konami in Japan decided to come out with a forbidden list, and still everyone was whinning how they missed their Injection Fairy Lily and Cyber Jar, but some others thought it was an improvement. Even though chaos was still ran (I think Invasion didnt come out then did it? Eh, Not sure on that part). This is how I see it.


There already exists a means that fits everybody's arguement here (that is the traditoinal format). What I cannot get is why people want to throw the Traditional Format Cards into the Advanced format. The advanced format is suppost to focus more on creativity with deck building and the ability to adapt to a ever changing ruleset of cards you can and cannot use. This tests a player's ability to adapt as the game adapts. Eventually more and more cards will be restricted/banned in the advanced format. And for players who want to deal with that restriction, I say is FINE. LET THEM.


I fit my arguemnt into why certain cards wont come back, or havent came back yet. I havent fit myself into an arguement on what should have been banned. People want to throw the traditional cards in the advance format is because people are scared. I will flat out say it, they are scared. They complain about a certain card on how its so "powerful" and never can be beaten, instead of finding ways to COUNTER it. At my store I hear nothing but complaints about Cyber Dragons and DDA. I say to them "Instead of complaining, find other useful ways to counter/stop the card." But their idiots, and there's nothing I can do about that. We already have enough mass removals out there already, why do we even need more? Smashing Grounds, Lightning Vortex, Dark Hole, Heavy storm, giant trunade, fissure, Exiled Force, DDWL, DDA, and etc. Why do we even need Raigeki? just to clear my opponents field out all at once with no cost? What kind of skill is that? We have lightning vortex! Sure it only works on face down and must discard the card, but that's the COST. This has already replaced Raigeki and other cards have replaced it as well. Nobelman of crossout, mystic swordsman Lv2 and Drillroid have already fixed the "Face down" problem. If more and more become restriction that is fine and deal with it. I like that part. Just puts more of a challenge out there.

You all have the Traditional Format which does not follow those restrictions. You can play that. Why bleed the traditional cards over to the advanced format.. Skill? There are different levels of that .

There is hardly skill in traditional. There's hardly any costs either. Some are real easy costs that involve removals and just involve hand destruction. This is the easy way to win cheezy tournaments with players who hardly have any skill (Not all some). ANYONE can play traditional and win. I play change of heart, Delinquent Duo, Graceful chairty, oh I drew pot, I play pot i remove a dark and light, i summon BLS/CED, summon jinzo. I win. There are lots of combos and the trinity that makes it a one turn win, and the scientist that is a FTK.


Your version of skill involves the effectiveness of a person using a specific card. That is traditional.


I agree on that :D.


My version of skill involves a person adapting to the changes and strategies a person uses in a varying amounts of different cards (like someone using spiritualism instead of MST). That is advanced.

Skill is not the excuse and noob people are not the excuse. Please do not use them as your reason because they are not adequate and do not reflect the actual purpose of the advanced format.


Advance has many meanings and here are a few:

1. Playing with all the other cards that are not on the banned list.

2. Playing with the other cards that are not on the banned list and dont have the same staples in everybody's decks.

3. Playing with the other cards that are not on the banned list and adapting to the changes.

4. Playing with the other cards that are not on the banned list and bulding all kinds of different decks every time instead of the same ones.

5. Being able to play around the broken cards by thinking of new strategies.

People usually stick with the traditional format because they dont want to give up their banned cards, or they think its stupid and shows that Konami was dumb and messed up everything.


You have an entire format. Use that and stop trying to move it into the advanced format. Advanced involves adaptation of your deck and strategies every 6 months or so. Moving cards off the banlist does not help in deck building and creativity. It only helps in restricting card pools and available slots in the already staple based deck.


I somewhat believe that the reason people here are complaining is that there are no Official Traditional Format Tournaments. I believe that might be the only reason


lol. So true, so true. Some do help in creativity and challenge (because new cards always go on), and we have to try and make the best of it.

Actually there ARE official Traditional format tournaments. There are the side events at Shonen Jump Tournament I saw when I went to Atlanta and there are small card shops that have traditional tournaments and not play advance that are sponsered by UDE.

[StealthoftheWest]

And you made a thread asking for reasons as to why this format is bad (and it is, don't kid yourself) and you won't actully listen to any of our points, and the only points you've made have reinforced ours.

Why should I listen? Most of you disbelievers came in here with your God complexes, and started prattling off at the fingers about how you're right and we're wrong and that we're n00bs simply for having opinions which differ from yours...

To make thigs very simple this format is horrible, and I think we should all be a bit happier when April rolls around.


If it's that bad to you, stop playing until then. It's not that hard a concept.

If you don't like the current Advanced Format, either play Traditional or quit YGO!, and stop WHINING ABOUT IT.

[Mage King]

Note To all People who say " Put up or Shut Up"

We enjoy playing the game, but we complain about formats because the game is not all it can be.

When first hand decides who wins without much room for better players to excel its not a healthy format.

When someone drops their hand 1st turn to do 5000 damage and still manages to win, its not a healthy format.

When theres a combo deck that CANNOT BE EASILY COUNTERED its an unhealthy format.

This format has two of these problems... Traditional only has one traditional wins : P

Traditional isn't a balanced format either but skilled players were more consistent there.

We complain about the game because it matters, we want change to support the game better.

Raigeki takes more skill than Smashing Ground.

[JeffMop]

This list means that no deck works as they are all too unreliable as they depend too much on the luck of the draw to set them up.

This has led to the less intelligent ( not insulting merely meaning those not abnormally intelligent ) to believe that any deck can work as they see many decks winning with completely different builds.
The truth is that this is occurring due to the uniform unplayability of any deck.

And also I would like to point out that no one as of yet has been able to make a unanimously agreed upon argument as to what is so good about this format.


hahahaha!

You just made that argument YOURSELF and you can't even realize it!!!

What you call "uniform unplayability" is, in actuality, "All decks are flawed." If all decks are flawed, and flawed equally, then isn't that the whole point? That there isn't one deck that completely and utterly crushes the rest of the decks the way Yata and then Chaos and then Chaos/Tsukulock did to the extent that it ruins the diversity of the game is proof that the game is better now.

"...any deck can work as they see many decks winning with completely different builds."

Please, once again, enlighten me as to why it is a bad thing that many decks with completely different builds are winning.

Also, I want to know why it is a bad thing that all decks are flawed. There's no such thing as a perfect deck. You know that as well as I do. I think it is good that all decks are flawed because that means it takes more skill by the player running the deck to get around those flaws and still win despite them.

Luck, to me, is a non-factor and doesn't even enter into the argument. First of all, I don't believe in luck. I believe in good deckbuilding. I believe that someone who constructs a deck well will give themselves the innate ability to draw more cards that help them than hurt them. Where the opponent complains "He topdecked me and beat me" I see only "I gave myself the best chance to win by using more cards that help than hurt."

As for the rest of it (you know, the "Oh my god, I can't believe he topdecked Dark Hole for game!"), that is completely irrelevant. That has always existed as long as these games have been around and it will always continue to occur. Get over it. Two players with the same deck size have the exact same chance of drawing the Dark Hole out of the deck on any given draw. That is simple mathematics and cannot be argued against. In the long run, they balance out and you will do it to your opponent just about as many times as they do it to you, whether you realize it or not. Anybody who tells you otherwise failed math or just can't accept the fact that they happen to be on the receiving end instead of the giving end. Deal with it.

I played at a rather large event not too long ago and beat a well-known player (who shall remain nameless) because he had a D.D. Survivor and 250 life points and I topdecked a Cyber Dragon. He said that I was lucky I topdecked it. To me, I was "unlucky" that despite running 3 Cyber Dragons, that I had to wait 25 cards into my deck to finally draw one of them (was the first one all game). I also thought to myself when he said that "Hey, I'm running three. I hadn't drawn one all game for almost 25 cards. I was bound to get one of them sooner or later." I didn't say anything back that I remember other than maybe "it was a good game, could have went either way" or something like that, but I did lose some respect for that particular player. Plus, you know if the situation was reversed, he'd have done the exact same thing.


That said, the current environment still needs work. I feel we still have a ways to go. If the goal is to make theme decks more playable (see: Kevin), that won't happen until a deck actually can make use of theme-specific cards without hurting the deck as that deck compares to other decks. You can't exactly take out your 30 staples or whatever it is now to put in theme cards and expect that your deck will run as smoothly as the cookie decks do. If you think it's easy to do, try building a Tier 1 Elemental Hero deck or Dark Magician deck sometime. Until they find a way to get rid of more staple cards and/or make deck sizes bigger to accomodate more theme cards, UDE and Konami's goal will never happen.

It's the same as if you had a choice between Dark Hole and Raigeki. Why would you ever choose Dark Hole over Raigeki? You wouldn't, unless your deck had a very special reason for needing to destroy your own monsters (Sacred Phoenix, for instance).

[Kameiko]

Note To all People who say " Put up or Shut Up"

We enjoy playing the game, but we complain about formats because the game is not all it can be.

When first hand decides who wins without much room for better players to excel its not a healthy format.

When someone drops their hand 1st turn to do 5000 damage and still manages to win, its not a healthy format.

When theres a combo deck that CANNOT BE EASILY COUNTERED its an unhealthy format.

This format has two of these problems... Traditional only has one traditional wins : P


Traditional isn't a balanced format either but skilled players were more consistent there.

We complain about the game because it matters, we want change to support the game better.

Raigeki takes more skill than Smashing Ground.


When first hand decides who wins without much room for better players to excel its not a healthy format.


What would you rather have the trinity back? I think not.


When someone drops their hand 1st turn to do 5000 damage and still manages to win, its not a healthy format.


When someone usues their hand unwisely then they deserve to loose and learn from their mistakes.


When theres a combo deck that CANNOT BE EASILY COUNTERED its an unhealthy format.


I beg to differ. This will be discussed later when brought up.

This format has two of these problems... Traditional only has one traditional wins : P



Traditional isn't a balanced format either but skilled players were more consistent there.


Please anyone can run a scientist and chaos deck -_-;;

Raigeki takes more skill than Smashing Ground

1. Raigeki has no cost
2. It destroys all monsters on opponents side of the field even if their face down
3. I know cant destroy Hours and Silent Swordsman
4. Free card
5. Its broken
6. Too many mass removals out there already.

Smashing Ground descides wich monster to take. Say theres two 2000 defenses. You have to decide wich one is the most threat and destroy it.

[ixidor89]

Mage king makes a point by saying ragaiki takes more skill to use than smashing ground.

You can run three smashing ground, meaning that it i more expendable than the limited-to-one ragaiki.

Your opponent will also be using a ragaiki, which means that you'll want to use yours more effectively than theirs. With smashing ground, it is virtually gaurunteed that it will destroy a monster(assuming it isn't turned face down somehow), whereas you could be destroying one monster with ragaiki while your opponent may destroy three. This kind of situation would cost you card advantage.

It is arguable, then, that ragaiki may take more skill to use in traditional than smashing ground does in advanced because of the effectiveness one needs to use ragaiki to in order to keep card advantage.

Another thing: every deck, no matter what format, requires skill to use. In a traditional chaos deck, one needs to be able to abuse the more broken cards better than their opponent to gain advantage in a game; little sucess can come from carelessly playing one's cards. A FTK deck, while most of the processes while playing take little actual skill, the constructing of the deck requires that one knows what will help him get out the combo the best. He needs a plan if he can't get his combo out for some reason, for example.

[WildfireR9]

You are a wise and very informed person Romancer.

Amen. There's really nothing I need to add to that. I hope Kevin is getting on that issue for the nerxt ban list.

[Kameiko]

Mage king makes a point by saying ragaiki takes more skill to use than smashing ground.

You can run three smashing ground, meaning that it i more expendable than the limited-to-one ragaiki.

Your opponent will also be using a ragaiki, which means that you'll want to use yours more effectively than theirs. With smashing ground, it is virtually gaurunteed that it will destroy a monster(assuming it isn't turned face down somehow), whereas you could be destroying one monster with ragaiki while your opponent may destroy three. This kind of situation would cost you card advantage.

It is arguable, then, that ragaiki may take more skill to use in traditional than smashing ground does in advanced because of the effectiveness one needs to use ragaiki to in order to keep card advantage.

Another thing: every deck, no matter what format, requires skill to use. In a traditional chaos deck, one needs to be able to abuse the more broken cards better than their opponent to gain advantage in a game; little sucess can come from carelessly playing one's cards. A FTK deck, while most of the processes while playing take little actual skill, the constructing of the deck requires that one knows what will help him get out the combo the best. He needs a plan if he can't get his combo out for some reason, for example.

Bkeh I think im mispelling the card name but oh well..

Rageki doesnt take no skill to use. Oh you have a field full of monsters. I activate Rageki. There's that chance that Sangan/witch are on the field, but that's a risk you have to take.

If the deck is run right and the player knows how to use the cards the FTK can be pulled off. It isnt that hard to learn and use the scientist deck. Chaos is the easiest deck ever and i mean EVER to biuld. All the cards in a chaos deck for traditional are in there exceptions for butterfly dagger elma and scientist. Usually when a advance format person goes up towards traditional they get their butts kicked (the ones I seen) because advance is at a disadvantage towards rageki, Harpie's, Mirror force, etc. What skill is that? Why play a card that has no costs? No one runs Judgement of Anbuis, Griffon Wing, fake trap (Well some I been seeing this lately), or any other cards smililar. We have cards to replace all those that require concentration and skill to use. Lightnig Vortex, smashing ground, Fissure, DDWL, DDA (Yes these do because of Mystic and other mass removals), Royal Decree (at the right time), sakretsu, and anything else that is mass removal.

Anyways its not that hard to biuld a scientist deck. If you go online and look up and Im pretty sure this fourm and traditional deck thing has whats in it. Some of the cards are self explanatory, and can just read the cards themselves.

Harpies and rageki take no skill to play. Sometimes you might want to waste them both on one card because half the chances its a magic/trap that can destroy your monster and a monster on the field that can kill you. How is that skill? Usually people play it just to get a free attack in. That's all it is.

I know smashing ground cant kill face down monsters, but what if your up against something with the same defense? Wich monster would pose the most threat? That takes some skill to figure out. I know a lot of it is common sense to choose wich one, but if your about to die you might have to think about it. With Rageki your like oh I get to activate it. MWWUUAHH!! Your monsters are destroyed!!! i can attack and I either win or get smacked into a mirror force so ill play Harpie's feather duster!! I win ^_^!

Decks do take skill to play, but like i said earlier a lot of it is basic common sense. Especially in a chaos deck for traditional. Now decks that really take skill to play is rescue kitty (need two last wills in your hand and thats hard to get), Last Turn (I ran it last week @__@ dont ask how many draws I had even though your sitting on last turn), gravekeepers, and some others. With Scientist you can have 3 Mof, 3 Gilasarus, 3 Last Wills, 3 Catapult turtles, and others.

In traditional you can only have one rageki and 3 smashing grounds. Rageki all it does is stop face flip effects, actual effects (Except certain ones), and to limit the mass amount of monsters. That's all it does. Lightning Vortex takes more skill to use now because of what to discard, and the old format it took more skill because of 3 book of moons. The only reason LV is not seeing more play because of lack of sinster serpent and Dark hole is here to replace it.

I'm done now.

[JeffMop]

Mage king makes a point by saying ragaiki takes more skill to use than smashing ground.

You can run three smashing ground, meaning that it i more expendable than the limited-to-one ragaiki.

Your opponent will also be using a ragaiki, which means that you'll want to use yours more effectively than theirs. With smashing ground, it is virtually gaurunteed that it will destroy a monster(assuming it isn't turned face down somehow), whereas you could be destroying one monster with ragaiki while your opponent may destroy three. This kind of situation would cost you card advantage.

It is arguable, then, that ragaiki may take more skill to use in traditional than smashing ground does in advanced because of the effectiveness one needs to use ragaiki to in order to keep card advantage.

Another thing: every deck, no matter what format, requires skill to use. In a traditional chaos deck, one needs to be able to abuse the more broken cards better than their opponent to gain advantage in a game; little sucess can come from carelessly playing one's cards. A FTK deck, while most of the processes while playing take little actual skill, the constructing of the deck requires that one knows what will help him get out the combo the best. He needs a plan if he can't get his combo out for some reason, for example.


I find this argument about Raigeki, etc. taking more skill to use as really pointless. The reason it is forbidden has nothing to do with the amount of skill it takes to use the card. Raigeki, Harpie's Feather Duster, etc. are forbidden because you get such a large benefit for such a little cost. It is a free game-changer. You play the card, the game changes dramatically solely on account of you having that card. Period.

Personally, I think Imperial Order was more broken than Raigeki, but that's just my opinion for a different topic. :)

[ixidor89]

I think that you two are confusing how easy it is to play a card with how to use it effectively.

Ragaiki is much easier to play than smashing ground, of course, but it is much easier to waste a ragaiki than a smashing ground when playing them. With smashing ground:

1.) You can run multiples of it in a deck. This means that it is much more expendable if you want to get in an attack or something.

2.) It is an almost guarunteed 1 for 1. This means that you will not be loosing cards if you play it at any time because your opponent won't be able to play it for more card advantage. For example, many cookies today run three smashing ground. If I am to play a a cookie with three smashing ground against a cookie with three smashing ground, then I go into that match knowing that I will be able to play my smashing grounds to a high degree just as well as my opponent; this meaning it is unlikely that I will lose considerable card advantage because I use smashing ground at one time vs. another.

But with Ragaiki:

1.) You have one. Your supply is limited, especially in traditional, which in the main time of traditional chaos had little magic recursion. Once you use it, you probably won't see it again. So, you'll have to question yourself if you really want to use such a powerful card at a certain point. A skilled player in traditional wouldn't just use Ragaiki to destroy one monster and get a free attack in.

2.) Your opponent may be able to gain more advantage from it than you. This means that if you want to play Ragaiki, you have to question yourself of the chances that your opponent will draw it and destroy more monsters with it than you. If you don't you could lose card advantage due to a misplay.

Note that I am talking about these cards IN THE FORMATS THAT THEY ARE POPULAR IN, NOT AGAINST EACH OTHER! (Smashing Ground in advanced, Ragaiki in traditional) Of course an advanced deck playing against a traditional deck would lose; traditional has powerful cards that advanced doesn't. That isn't the argument though. The idea is that if you are playing in traditional format, where powerful cards like Ragaiki and Harpies Feather Duster are played heavily, you can't be in a habit of playing ragaiki or harpies feather duster to destroy one card becuase it will not contribute to gaining advantage in games. To make Harpies Feather Duster and Ragaiki into cards that shift advantage heavily towards you, you need skill to know when to play them, rather than playing them whenever you would like something to die. In this light, a deck full of completly broken cards would have to take some skill to use (Often times great amounts) because the person playing that deck has to face other decks with the same ridiculously powerful cards that he uses, which means he has to find ways to play them more effectively. Even with FTK's the player has to make difficult descisions that may cost him/her the game.

Now, after all of this, of course ragaiki deserves to be banned (Along with a number of the other cards on the list) . It is a card with zero cost and a devestating effect. However, this doesn't mean that playing it effectivly comes from playing it when you want to kill a monster.

Kapiche? :mad:

[Kameiko]

I think that you two are confusing how easy it is to play a card with how to use it effectively.

Ragaiki is much easier to play than smashing ground, of course, but it is much easier to waste a ragaiki than a smashing ground when playing them. With smashing ground:

1.) You can run multiples of it in a deck. This means that it is much more expendable if you want to get in an attack or something.

2.) It is an almost guarunteed 1 for 1. This means that you will not be loosing cards if you play it at any time because your opponent won't be able to play it for more card advantage. For example, many cookies today run three smashing ground. If I am to play a a cookie with three smashing ground against a cookie with three smashing ground, then I go into that match knowing that I will be able to play my smashing grounds to a high degree just as well as my opponent; this meaning it is unlikely that I will lose considerable card advantage because I use smashing ground at one time vs. another.

But with Ragaiki:

1.) You have one. Your supply is limited, especially in traditional, which in the main time of traditional chaos had little magic recursion. Once you use it, you probably won't see it again. So, you'll have to question yourself if you really want to use such a powerful card at a certain point. A skilled player in traditional wouldn't just use Ragaiki to destroy one monster and get a free attack in.

2.) Your opponent may be able to gain more advantage from it than you. This means that if you want to play Ragaiki, you have to question yourself of the chances that your opponent will draw it and destroy more monsters with it than you. If you don't you could lose card advantage due to a misplay.

Note that I am talking about these cards IN THE FORMATS THAT THEY ARE POPULAR IN, NOT AGAINST EACH OTHER! (Smashing Ground in advanced, Ragaiki in traditional) Of course an advanced deck playing against a traditional deck would lose; traditional has powerful cards that advanced doesn't. That isn't the argument though. The idea is that if you are playing in traditional format, where powerful cards like Ragaiki and Harpies Feather Duster are played heavily, you can't be in a habit of playing ragaiki or harpies feather duster to destroy one card becuase it will not contribute to gaining advantage in games. To make Harpies Feather Duster and Ragaiki into cards that shift advantage heavily towards you, you need skill to know when to play them, rather than playing them whenever you would like something to die. In this light, a deck full of completly broken cards would have to take some skill to use (Often times great amounts) because the person playing that deck has to face other decks with the same ridiculously powerful cards that he uses, which means he has to find ways to play them more effectively. Even with FTK's the player has to make difficult descisions that may cost him/her the game.

Now, after all of this, of course ragaiki deserves to be banned (Along with a number of the other cards on the list) . It is a card with zero cost and a devestating effect. However, this doesn't mean that playing it effectivly comes from playing it when you want to kill a monster.

Kapiche? :mad:

I think that you two are confusing how easy it is to play a card with how to use it effectively.

Ragaiki is much easier to play than smashing ground, of course, but it is much easier to waste a ragaiki than a smashing ground when playing them. With smashing ground:


Raigeki (Proper spelling I finally know how to spell the damn thing.

Raigeki makes it so all your opponents mosnters go bye bye and have a clear shot. Like I said earlier there is that chance that you have a sangan/witch, wing kuriboh, and others that I can't think of right now. With NOC at 2 in traditional format hardly anyone lays anything face down anymore so its easier to see when to activate a card or when not.


1.) You have one. Your supply is limited, especially in traditional, which in the main time of traditional chaos had little magic recursion. Once you use it, you probably won't see it again. So, you'll have to question yourself if you really want to use such a powerful card at a certain point. A skilled player in traditional wouldn't just use Ragaiki to destroy one monster and get a free attack in.


In traditional you have 3 magician of faiths to help you get your magic cards back, and make a come back with them. Yes I would question mayselfat some point, but when I'm about to die and theres a field full of monsters I will use it, or if my opponent is about to die I want to get a free attack in and win. This is what made Raigeki broken is because of hos "Free" it is. I mean gfree in a turn-over situation. You can sit on it and wait till your opponent has all the best monsters out on the field then play that card. Some people would just bring out 2 o 3 others 4 or 5. In traditional with the unlimited of Magician of faiths its easier to get back all the magic cards you just played.


2.) Your opponent may be able to gain more advantage from it than you. This means that if you want to play Ragaiki, you have to question yourself of the chances that your opponent will draw it and destroy more monsters with it than you. If you don't you could lose card advantage due to a misplay.


Misplay? A misplay is when you say something out of context or just acitvate it at the wrong time. Like saying "I choose to remove chaos sorcerer from play" instead of saying "I choose to remove such and such opponents card from play". That is a misplay. The only way to activate raigeki at a certain time is when your opponent has to have ONE monster on the field. It's not like Lightnign Vortex. If you waste your hand at once that's just making mistakes and not thinking clearly, not a misplay.


Note that I am talking about these cards IN THE FORMATS THAT THEY ARE POPULAR IN, NOT AGAINST EACH OTHER! (Smashing Ground in advanced, Ragaiki in traditional) Of course an advanced deck playing against a traditional deck would lose; traditional has powerful cards that advanced doesn't. That isn't the argument though. The idea is that if you are playing in traditional format, where powerful cards like Ragaiki and Harpies Feather Duster are played heavily, you can't be in a habit of playing ragaiki or harpies feather duster to destroy one card becuase it will not contribute to gaining advantage in games. To make Harpies Feather Duster and Ragaiki into cards that shift advantage heavily towards you, you need skill to know when to play them, rather than playing them whenever you would like something to die. In this light, a deck full of completly broken cards would have to take some skill to use (Often times great amounts) because the person playing that deck has to face other decks with the same ridiculously powerful cards that he uses, which means he has to find ways to play them more effectively. Even with FTK's the player has to make difficult descisions that may cost him/her the game.


I know their not against each other. They each have their own format, and I respect that. I'm giving my reasons why Raigeki might not come off the banned list. I beg to differ on that. Some people might loose to traditional if their playing advance because of the lack of card advantage. A lot of people that play advance kick others butts without a sweat. Especialyl the tournament I go to. A traditional player runnign chaos doesnt stand a chance. Plus they get called a bunch of nubs. Usually when you draw a forbidden card you play it right away to gain a +1 advantage, but that isn't usually the chase. When playing FTK decks in traditional usually leads to a well FTK, because of the scientist deck and with almost everything in 3's its not hard to draw doubles of almost anything. I ran scientist I found the combo very easy to pull off in traditional even though I can hardly rememebnr what fusions to use half the time. Some traditional cards do take skill, but cards like Raigeki hardly take any. They take some, BUT not a lot. It's not hard to play a card when you draw it and your at a disadvantage, but if you play it when there is one mosnter out on the field then no I can understand why not to play it. If its an Envoy out there you better believe Im playing Raigeki. Sometimes though it gets smacked with an imperial Order.


Now, after all of this, of course ragaiki deserves to be banned (Along with a number of the other cards on the list) . It is a card with zero cost and a devestating effect. However, this doesn't mean that playing it effectivly comes from playing it when you want to kill a monster.


Some people interpurt the card different. You interpertet as playing it effectively and when knowing that it wont hurt you, and that hardly happens when your up against a field full of monsters. Others might want to kill a monster to get a +1 advantage, and win the game. I can see where both sides are coming from, and respect their opinions as Im respecting yours.


Kapiche? :mad:


Don't get so mad over something this silly. This can lead to a flame war.

[ixidor89]

Raigeki (Proper spelling I finally know how to spell the damn thing.

Raigeki makes it so all your opponents mosnters go bye bye and have a clear shot. Like I said earlier there is that chance that you have a sangan/witch, wing kuriboh, and others that I can't think of right now. With NOC at 2 in traditional format hardly anyone lays anything face down anymore so its easier to see when to activate a card or when not.


Yes, I am very aware of the effect of Raigeki.

In traditional you have 3 magician of faiths to help you get your magic cards back, and make a come back with them. Yes I would question mayselfat some point, but when I'm about to die and theres a field full of monsters I will use it, or if my opponent is about to die I want to get a free attack in and win. This is what made Raigeki broken is because of hos "Free" it is. I mean gfree in a turn-over situation. You can sit on it and wait till your opponent has all the best monsters out on the field then play that card. Some people would just bring out 2 o 3 others 4 or 5. In traditional with the unlimited of Magician of faiths its easier to get back all the magic cards you just played.

If you remember back to when there was only one format, magician of faith was not played that much as an engine for magic recursion. A professional traditional deck probably wouldn't have magician of faith at all.

Yes, I know that Raigeki is broken.

When I talk about waiting until your opponent has more monsters rather than playing Raigeki immediatly, I'm talking about situations where you have a number of different ways to kill a card. For example, you probably wouldn't want to use Raigeki on one monster unless you could attack for lethal damage. Otherwise you would probably just try attacking with a monster to kill it because playing Raigeki to destroy one monster is usually a waste of a Raigeki.

Misplay? A misplay is when you say something out of context or just acitvate it at the wrong time. Like saying "I choose to remove chaos sorcerer from play" instead of saying "I choose to remove such and such opponents card from play". That is a misplay. The only way to activate raigeki at a certain time is when your opponent has to have ONE monster on the field. It's not like Lightnign Vortex. If you waste your hand at once that's just making mistakes and not thinking clearly, not a misplay.

That's exactly what I mean when I say it. I'm asserting that playing Raigeki to destroy one monster is usually a misplay because it usually isn't a wise move in traditional. Raigeki is an advantage getter, it should be used to gain advantage, not a 1 for 1 tradeoff.

I know their not against each other. They each have their own format, and I respect that. I'm giving my reasons why Raigeki might not come off the banned list. I beg to differ on that. Some people might loose to traditional if their playing advance because of the lack of card advantage. A lot of people that play advance kick others butts without a sweat. Especialyl the tournament I go to. A traditional player runnign chaos doesnt stand a chance. Plus they get called a bunch of nubs. Usually when you draw a forbidden card you play it right away to gain a +1 advantage, but that isn't usually the chase. When playing FTK decks in traditional usually leads to a well FTK, because of the scientist deck and with almost everything in 3's its not hard to draw doubles of almost anything. I ran scientist I found the combo very easy to pull off in traditional even though I can hardly rememebnr what fusions to use half the time. Some traditional cards do take skill, but cards like Raigeki hardly take any. They take some, BUT not a lot. It's not hard to play a card when you draw it and your at a disadvantage, but if you play it when there is one mosnter out on the field then no I can understand why not to play it. If its an Envoy out there you better believe Im playing Raigeki. Sometimes though it gets smacked with an imperial Order.

If you are playing Raigeki to kill one monster, you aren't getting +1 advantage; you are getting zero advantage because you have to put Raigeki in the graveyard.

Some people interpurt the card different. You interpertet as playing it effectively and when knowing that it wont hurt you, and that hardly happens when your up against a field full of monsters. Others might want to kill a monster to get a +1 advantage, and win the game. I can see where both sides are coming from, and respect their opinions as Im respecting yours.

I interpret that you play it to gain significant advantage from its use. No real advantage comes from playing it to off one monster. Pot of Greed gets you +1 advantage because it produces one extra card than it took to get its effect off.

I thank you for respecting my opinion, it is refreshing to see people that aren't polarized on these issues being discussed.

Don't get so mad over something this silly. This can lead to a flame war.

I'm not really mad about it. It just seems like a text that long about a card game should have some sort of emotion to it. :rolleyes:

[Kameiko]

Yes, I am very aware of the effect of Raigeki.



If you remember back to when there was only one format, magician of faith was not played that much as an engine for magic recursion. A professional traditional deck probably wouldn't have magician of faith at all.

Yes, I know that Raigeki is broken.

When I talk about waiting until your opponent has more monsters rather than playing Raigeki immediatly, I'm talking about situations where you have a number of different ways to kill a card. For example, you probably wouldn't want to use Raigeki on one monster unless you could attack for lethal damage. Otherwise you would probably just try attacking with a monster to kill it because playing Raigeki to destroy one monster is usually a waste of a Raigeki.



That's exactly what I mean when I say it. I'm asserting that playing Raigeki to destroy one monster is usually a misplay because it usually isn't a wise move in traditional. Raigeki is an advantage getter, it should be used to gain advantage, not a 1 for 1 tradeoff.



If you are playing Raigeki to kill one monster, you aren't getting +1 advantage; you are getting zero advantage because you have to put Raigeki in the graveyard.



I interpret that you play it to gain significant advantage from its use. No real advantage comes from playing it to off one monster. Pot of Greed gets you +1 advantage because it produces one extra card than it took to get its effect off.

I thank you for respecting my opinion, it is refreshing to see people that aren't polarized on these issues being discussed.



I'm not really mad about it. It just seems like a text that long about a card game should have some sort of emotion to it. :rolleyes:

lol i see your point of view. Back in chaos days I saw 3 Mof's used O_o Well at least where I live :D. Other places I usually saw two and it was very annoying.


I thank you for respecting my opinion, it is refreshing to see people that aren't polarized on these issues being discussed.


Not a problem! To me its just a card game, and I'm not going to get worked about it, and i like to hear others views, because I like to learn.

[Mage King]

What would you rather have the trinity back? I think not.

When someone usues their hand unwisely then they deserve to loose and learn from their mistakes.

I beg to differ. This will be discussed later when brought up.


Please anyone can run a scientist and chaos deck -_-;;

1. Raigeki has no cost
2. It destroys all monsters on opponents side of the field even if their face down
3. I know cant destroy Hours and Silent Swordsman
4. Free card
5. Its broken
6. Too many mass removals out there already.

Smashing Ground descides wich monster to take. Say theres two 2000 defenses. You have to decide wich one is the most threat and destroy it.


Okay its time to clarify some things. *Edited Statement to make it civil*

Auto 2-1 are not skilled. I never said they were. Cards that have potential to be 2-1 if used correctly are good. If you can turn something into card advatage you used skill to overcome your opponent.

If they overextended without killing you, Raigeki isn't what was broken their stupidity was.

Raigeki is only as broken as you make it. Raigeki can be a 0-1, or if you have skills a 2-1 . Smashing Ground is a 1-1, this means there is no reason to hold onto it. Why save it when it will be a 1-1 later on too. Anytime you use it, it will provide the same advantage. Knowing when to play your cards is important.

Using your hand unwisely when all the game is are 1-1 are stupid. Every card you play takes care of one of theres. Then it becomes a topdeck match and it comes to straight luck of the draw.

You're arguing about using your hand unwisely but you talk about Raigeki killing 3+ monsters. If its going to provide that type of advantage your opponent already made a mistake.



Anyone can run a Scientist/Chaos deck, kinda like Toolbox in advanced huh?

And while anyone can run a Scientist deck, not anyone can run it well. It is not a deck that can be net-decked easily. It takes great knowledge of the deck to get the most sucess out of it.

Chaos is about using broken cards well, using broken card effectively means more than using 1-1 that have little issues over when to be activated.


The only real issue with Raigeki is that is makes new sets pointless. There can't be a better monster removal than it, so making new cards to replace it is impossible. Thats why many sets had low sales after IOC because they couldn't compete with them.

There isn't tool much mass removal if clearly the best decks in the format are based on swarming and aggressive pushes.

[Kameiko]

Okay its time for me to clarify some things for you, hopefully it will make you a better player.

Auto 2-1 are not skilled. I never said they were. Cards that have potential to be 2-1 if used correctly are good. If you can turn something into card advatage you used skill to overcome your opponent.

If they overextended without killing you, Raigeki isn't what was broken their stupidity was.

Raigeki is only as broken as you make it. Raigeki can be a 0-1, or if you have skills a 2-1 . Smashing Ground is a 1-1, this means there is no reason to hold onto it. Why save it when it will be a 1-1 later on too. Anytime you use it, it will provide the same advantage. Knowing when to play your cards is important.

Using your hand unwisely when all the game is are 1-1 are stupid. Every card you play takes care of one of theres. Then it becomes a topdeck match and it comes to straight luck of the draw.

You're arguing about using your hand unwisely but you talk about Raigeki killing 3+ monsters. If its going to provide that type of advantage your opponent already made a mistake.



Anyone can run a Scientist/Chaos deck, kinda like Toolbox in advanced huh?

And while anyone can run a Scientist deck, not anyone can run it well. It is not a deck that can be net-decked easily. It takes great knowledge of the deck to get the most sucess out of it.

Chaos is about using broken cards well, using broken card effectively means more than using 1-1 that have little issues over when to be activated.


The only real issue with Raigeki is that is makes new sets pointless. There can't be a better monster removal than it, so making new cards to replace it is impossible. Thats why many sets had low sales after IOC because they couldn't compete with them.

There isn't too much mass removal if clearly the best decks in the format are based on swarming and aggressive pushes.

I hope you read my other posts before telling me a "better player" because I gave a lot of paragraphs on my thoughts in MANY MANY posts. I'm tired of telling them all. These are OPINIONS after all :). Plus your making it sound like I dont know how to play --;;

You're arguing about using your hand unwisely but you talk about Raigeki killing 3+ monsters. If its going to provide that type of advantage your opponent already made a mistake.

That was with Yata not Raigeki I was talking about.

Using Rageki has many different views. I can see everyones and the most common I seen is to get a free attack in and to save it till your opponent has a field full of monsters. But like I said earlier the turn player isn't going to summon a field full of monsters to get later destroyed by cards that can hurt them. The only time I see summong a field full of monsters is when your about to win, your opponent has no hand, you can end it in one turn, and etc. Other times you cant help but summon a field full due to card effects aka Cyber Jar.

And while anyone can run a Scientist deck, not anyone can run it well. It is not a deck that can be net-decked easily. It takes great knowledge of the deck to get the most sucess out of it.

I know that for fact, bleh. Their easy to build, but not all can be run well. I get your point on that, but like I said all these are OPINIONS. Some decks dont take great knowledge out of. Some you just know how to run them anyways. Beginniners might even have some knowledge on how to run them. In a way everyone learns from watching people, playing the decks themselves, and etc.

The only real issue with Raigeki is that is makes new sets pointless. There can't be a better monster removal than it, so making new cards to replace it is impossible. Thats why many sets had low sales after IOC because they couldn't compete with them.

Oh really? Another reason to ban Raigeki is to make other cards more USEFUL. Like Smashing Ground for instnace? Wave-Motion Cannon? Mytik Wok? All these cards didnt see hardly any play when there was only a traditional list. There are other cards to replace Raigeki you just have to be creative and figure out what to use. Actually I seen higher sales after IOC around Georgia, and mroe sales seem to splurge every where.

Couldnt compete with them? This shows that people arent willing to go from one format to the other without whining about their forbidden cards. It's sad really in so many ways. Why can't people just learn to deal with the change, and if they dont like it go play traditional.

There isn't too much mass removal if clearly the best decks in the format are based on swarming and aggressive pushes

There are A LOT of mass removal/negator cards though:
Sakretsu Armor
Widespread ruins
Smashing Ground
Dark Hole
Mystic Swiordsman L2/4/6
Mobuis the frost monarch
Gamna monarch
Zaborg monarch
Cyber Jar
Morphing Jar
Lightning Vortex
Solmen Juidgement
Breaker the magical warrior
Chaos Sorcerrer
Morphing Jar #2
Jinzo
Royal Decree
Hours Lv. 6
Silent Lv. 5
Fake Trap
Heavy Storm
Giant Trunade
Card Destruction
Drillroid
Saskue Smaurai
Dark Magician of Chaos
Ninja Grandmaster Sasuke
DDWL
DDW
DDA
Seven tools
Magic Jammer
Dark Ruler Hades
Penguin Soilder
Man Eater Bug
Newdoria
Yomi Ship
And there are plenty more...

Not all of the mass removals are agressive cards either. Some can be just basic flip effects that can whipe out a mosnter in one shot. A lot of them arent in every ones "best" deck either.

Well I stated my thoughts that was all. I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just giving my thoughts on why i think this is what.

[Mage King]

Using Rageki has many different views. I can see everyones and the most common I seen is to get a free attack in and to save it till your opponent has a field full of monsters. But like I said earlier the turn player isn't going to summon a field full of monsters to get later destroyed by cards that can hurt them. The only time I see summong a field full of monsters is when your about to win, your opponent has no hand, you can end it in one turn, and etc. Other times you cant help but summon a field full due to card effects aka Cyber Jar.

Oh really? Another reason to ban Raigeki is to make other cards more USEFUL. Like Smashing Ground for instnace? Wave-Motion Cannon? Mytik Wok? All these cards didnt see hardly any play when there was only a traditional list. There are other cards to replace Raigeki you just have to be creative and figure out what to use. Actually I seen higher sales after IOC around Georgia, and mroe sales seem to splurge every where.

Couldnt compete with them? This shows that people arent willing to go from one format to the other without whining about their forbidden cards. It's sad really in so many ways. Why can't people just learn to deal with the change, and if they dont like it go play traditional.



There are [some] mass removal
Dark Hole
Mobuis the frost monarch
Cyber Jar
Morphing Jar
Lightning Vortex
Chaos Sorcerrer
Morphing Jar #2
Jinzo
Royal Decree
Heavy Storm
Giant Trunade
Card Destruction
Penguin Soilder




Not all of the mass removals are agressive cards either. Some can be just basic flip effects that can whipe out a mosnter in one shot. A lot of them arent in every ones "best" deck either.

Well I stated my thoughts that was all. I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just giving my thoughts on why i think this is what.

My first thing I want to say is Removal =/= Mass Removal.

This isn't your fault not knowing the difference, I'll assume you just have made an error in defining it.

Mass removal is something that can remove and entire part of the field.

Sakuretsu Armor is not mass removal, it is 1-1 removal.

Mass removal gives the player an incentive to not overextend.

I've edited your list so it shows actual mass removing cards.

I guess cards like MOrphing Jar can be considered it, I don't but thats up to you.


I also guess you misread my statement about Raigeki, deserving to be banned because it makes other cards useless. Monster removal cannot be better than Raigeki, card advantage wise. So no matter what kind of monster removal is made Raigeki is better than it. That means playing newer cards would make your deck lacking strictly better cards. If you play smashing Ground over raigeki, your deck is worse then it can be.

So if cards can never be made to compete with it, why would a competitve player buy newer sets (especially in bulk) when the majority of cards have no use.

Sales of other Sets have increased because they serve some value because raigeki and its like are banned.

Yeah, I'll edit my "better player comment" it wasn't a rational response on my part.

So to overview my opinion, Raigeki shouldn't be banned because of its effect (in fact I believe it has a positive effect on the game) , it should be banned because it stops the development of the game.

[Kameiko]

My first thing I want to say is Removal =/= Mass Removal.

This isn't your fault not knowing the difference, I'll assume you just have made an error in defining it.

Mass removal is something that can remove and entire part of the field.

Sakuretsu Armor is not mass removal, it is 1-1 removal.

Mass removal gives the player an incentive to not overextend.

I've edited your list so it shows actual mass removing cards.

I guess cards like MOrphing Jar can be considered it, I don't but thats up to you.


I also guess you misread my statement about Raigeki, deserving to be banned because it makes other cards useless. Monster removal cannot be better than Raigeki, card advantage wise. So no matter what kind of monster removal is made Raigeki is better than it. That means playing newer cards would make your deck lacking strictly better cards. If you play smashing Ground over raigeki, your deck is worse then it can be.

So if cards can never be made to compete with it, why would a competitve player buy newer sets (especially in bulk) when the majority of cards have no use.

Sales of other Sets have increased because they serve some value because raigeki and its like are banned.

Yeah, I'll edit my "better player comment" it wasn't a rational response on my part.

So to overview my opinion, Raigeki shouldn't be banned because of its effect (in fact I believe it has a positive effect on the game) , it should be banned because it stops the development of the game.


I also guess you misread my statement about Raigeki, deserving to be banned because it makes other cards useless. Monster removal cannot be better than Raigeki, card advantage wise. So no matter what kind of monster removal is made Raigeki is better than it. That means playing newer cards would make your deck lacking strictly better cards. If you play smashing Ground over raigeki, your deck is worse then it can be.


If i misread it my bad ^_^;;. It; s just what I been reading your whole post it seemed like you were making a statement that other cards seemed useless. Raigeki owns all mass removal for only one sife of the field (opponents I meant lol). Raigeki is for traditional and traditional only. In advance Smashjing Ground is running in 2's and 3's. If raigeki was brought to advance. I don't think ANYONE would run smashing Grounds anymore.


My first thing I want to say is Removal =/= Mass Removal.

This isn't your fault not knowing the difference, I'll assume you just have made an error in defining it.

Mass removal is something that can remove and entire part of the field.

Sakuretsu Armor is not mass removal, it is 1-1 removal.

Mass removal gives the player an incentive to not overextend.

I've edited your list so it shows actual mass removing cards.

I guess cards like MOrphing Jar can be considered it, I don't but thats up to you.


Yes I made an error.

What I meant by removal; is that there are sitll other cards out there besides Raigeki that can be used.

I'll look at the list when im done postin lol.


So if cards can never be made to compete with it, why would a competitve player buy newer sets (especially in bulk) when the majority of cards have no use.

Sales of other Sets have increased because they serve some value because raigeki and its like are banned.

Yeah, I'll edit my "better player comment" it wasn't a rational response on my part.

So to overview my opinion, Raigeki shouldn't be banned because of its effect (in fact I believe it has a positive effect on the game) , it should be banned because it stops the development of the game


Some people still thought of creative decks with the supposedly useless cards out there. Almost any card can be used to help with eachother. That Reliable guardian card for instance (The one that says send 3 cards to the graveyard) can help dark world decks a lot better because they get sent to the graveyard. A lot of people also noticed that kitty decks are great and POSION DRAW FROG as well.

It's alright I shouldn't have gotten mad about it lol. I'm sorry about that.

Well if Raigeki would be brought back how would effect the decks now and the players views? Would they want to quit the game? Maybe yes and maybe no, but who knows. When Raigeki comes off the list people should think of counters to get around it instead of making up exscuses why the card is annoying and stupid.

You make valid points and I respect that. Hope to hear from your next comment ^_^!

[Mage King]

lol thanks.

That was my point, no one would use Smashing if Raigeki was legal. That means less people are using cards from more recent sets. Thats bad for game, if new sets don't change metagame. Thats why imo it should be banned.


If Raigeki was unbanned all that would change would be play styles. People wouldn't summon as much is there was mass removal.

And if they don't summon as much Raigeki won't be giving a large advantage.

This slows the game down without using cards like scaegoats that warp entire decks and make the entire game slow.

IDK if people would quit if raigeki was brought back. No one complained when dark hole was brought back and Dark Hole is effectivly the same as raigeki. No one activates Dark Hole when they have a full field : P so it destroys multiple opponents cards for few/none of yours.


People will always make original decks, I'm talking strictly competitive tourney decks.
Those original decks would be better if they played raigeki, and it would take up space for the theme cards.

So like Monster Reborn > Gateway to dark world. Even in DR decks, because monster reborn is the more reliable card. This is another reason why Raigeki is bad for the diversity, but not competition.

If Raigeki was legal in Advanced, people would not have to change decks, just play style.

I do think having Raigeki Legal would make other cards pointless.
If a card said this " Destroy all monster on opponents side of the field, if you have a warrior on the field" Raigeki would make the card effectivly useless.

If another card already out can do something better than something new, the new card didn't need to be made.

[plumaglob63]

even tough there were a couple of broken cards in the last format
the thousand eyes lock wasn't that bad it showed more skill than this format does

[Kameiko]

lol thanks.

That was my point, no one would use Smashing if Raigeki was legal. That means less people are using cards from more recent sets. Thats bad for game, if new sets don't change metagame. Thats why imo it should be banned.


If Raigeki was unbanned all that would change would be play styles. People wouldn't summon as much is there was mass removal.

And if they don't summon as much Raigeki won't be giving a large advantage.

This slows the game down without using cards like scaegoats that warp entire decks and make the entire game slow.

IDK if people would quit if raigeki was brought back. No one complained when dark hole was brought back and Dark Hole is effectivly the same as raigeki. No one activates Dark Hole when they have a full field : P so it destroys multiple opponents cards for few/none of yours.


People will always make original decks, I'm talking strictly competitive tourney decks.
Those original decks would be better if they played raigeki, and it would take up space for the theme cards.

So like Monster Reborn > Gateway to dark world. Even in DR decks, because monster reborn is the more reliable card. This is another reason why Raigeki is bad for the diversity, but not competition.

If Raigeki was legal in Advanced, people would not have to change decks, just play style.

I do think having Raigeki Legal would make other cards pointless.
If a card said this " Destroy all monster on opponents side of the field, if you have a warrior on the field" Raigeki would make the card effectivly useless.

If another card already out can do something better than something new, the new card didn't need to be made.


I do think having Raigeki Legal would make other cards pointless.
If a card said this " Destroy all monster on opponents side of the field, if you have a warrior on the field" Raigeki would make the card effectivly useless.

If another card already out can do something better than something new, the new card didn't need to be made


That is true, I think i be scared to summon a mosnter cause ill be like "THey got a raigeki I know it" But who doesnt think that when facing an opponent about any card. ~shruigs Just have to work around it that is all ^^