Ani Toguro

[Obi Qai Gin]

Now there was a thread that was talking about him being weak and all. But infact Ani is classified as a stronger demon than Hiei. Well atleast up until the end of the Chapter Black Saga. Both he and Toguro were listed as upper B class demons respectively. Hiei was only classified as a middle B class demon after the tournament. I believe Kurama is an upper B class demon as well. Atleast up until the end of CBS. After that they ae all stronger then that.

[Youko Recca]

What is the point you're trying to get at?

[Obi Qai Gin]

The point I'm trying to make, (which wasn't to you, not being rude just stating), is to other people who stated how useless Ani was. And I would think that he had some powers other than just being maleable. They were saying that if you take the powers of everyone away their all still pretty good fighters except Ani. I was thinking that to be ranked an upper B class demon, you have to have SOME fighting experience.

[Godzilla]

I'm pretty sure demon class is only a measure of power and not fighting ability. A good example is when Genkai lost her orb, her class dropped dramatically but she was still an extremely good fighter, and was matching shishiwakamaru move for move in physical combat (no noticeable decrease in fighting ability). Her class dropped but her ability to fight didn't, so the 2 are seemingly unrelated.

Thats not to say that, if stripped of his power, ani wouldn't break out some awesome strength, speed, or martial arts. However, since we have no way of testing this, we only have his performance in the DT to base this on, and his performance didn't make him look like a very good fighter.

[Obi Qai Gin]

I didn't think Genkai was classed, I thought the classes was only for demons. But it would stand to figure that she had a class too.

[Godzilla]

All fighters, demon and human, are classed in a similar letter fashion. Visit pojo's YYH site for a rough estimate of everyones power levels throughout the series, and you'll noticed the human fighters are ranked along with the demons.

These classes only measure Human and demon energy, so they have nothing to do with fighting ability. :)

[Master Dragon]

Well without any of Ani's special powers, I think he would be only as strong as Baldock, the man-bat from Genkai's Tournament, not stronger than DT Hiei.

[Obi Qai Gin]

Godzilla I know that they have nothing to do with fighting ability, but don't you have to be able to fight to get the power? I mean I don't think Younger Toguro would let Ani just hang around and do what he wants only because of his powers, or that he was his brother. He must've be able to fight without his powers, i think that he just had them for so long that he relied on them to heavily.

[Godzilla]

Like I said earlier, it's possible elder toguro has fighting ability that he hasn't shown us, but theres nothing anywhere in the show to support that. He could've easily won the match against Kuwabara, but he decides too piss Kuwabara off with the genkai thing (which made Kuwabara stronger), and basically stood still getting carved up until Kuwabara found a way to keep him down for the count.

A reasonably intelligent and skilled fighter with elder toguros abilities would basically be unstoppable, but elder toguro managed to lose too team urameshi's weakest and dumbest fighter.

I also believe that Younger toguro simply tolerates his brother because they are family, and since elder became an immortal (kinda) he's actually useful to the team now.

Also, ani didn't earn is power through training he wished it as a prize in his first dark tournament, so he really wouldn't have needed much fighting experience to obtain the prize. It's obvious Genkai and younger toguro were the MVP's of their team, so I doubt elder had to do much serious fighting through that tournament.

[TheAlmightyButter]

Toguro Ani makes me want to fart.

[YamiYaj]

Psuedo Ani > All other fighters in Yuu Yuu Hakusho
Ankoku Bujutsukai Ani > Karasu and Bui.

[DarkPaw]

I would have liked to see him use his physical strengths, but seeing as there isn't a reason for him to do so that wasn't an option. The only mild thing to support that Ani had and previous fighting ability would be in the flashback of the first tournament, where Genkai, Otouto, Ani, and two other fighters were standing. I doubt Toguro would be foolish enough to choose a bunch of nobodies, the guy actually does think things through even if he is on a vengeance high. Even though both Genkai and Toguro are very advanced with their strenghts even at that point, it wouldn't be the two of them taking every single fight.
For one it would fatigue their bodies so bad they would die, secondly their bodies were human and could only take so much a beating. Even Yusuke and the gang were incapable of fighting at some point due to those reasons, it would be fair to assume the same happened to Toguro and Genkia, which would force the others to fight.
Secondly, I'm sure the committee was just as corrupt and didn't have warm feelings about an all human team winning the tournament. They would have pulled the same tricks to make Toguro's team lose, forcing the 'weaker' members of the team to fight.

But, again, their is in no way to confirm this. There is also no way to prove the others would or wouldn't be stronger then him if you can't prove how useless he is in the first place. Show me hard proof, then I'll believe he is totally useless without his powers.

[Obi Qai Gin]

That's what I was thinking :). Good job Darkpaw.

[DarkPaw]

Thanks Obi Qai Gin *pouncehugs*

[Godzilla]

Well Darkpaw, the proof of his inability to fight lies in the only real fight we've seen elder toguro participate in. Given his poor performance against Kuwabara, I'd say the burden of proof lies with anyone who feels elder toguro has some fighting ability. The only credible argument given is elders participation in the previous Dark Tournament, so I'll just refute that with some simple logic. :)

The other 2 members of toguros team had no ties to toguro or genkai, so the only reason theyd be allowed on the team is because they are really good fighters. So if genkai and toguro were to become fatigued It's doubtful elder toguro would be required to pick up the slack.

As youngers brother, elder is the only member of the original team toguro that wouldn't need much skill to be accepted onto the team, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume he was carried through that first DT by the rest of team toguro.

Again everything involving the first DT is pure speculation and can't be proven, so it can't effectively be used to defend elders ability to fight.

Elder's powers should have made him unbeatable, so the mere fact that Kuwabara was too much for him is proof enough for me that he sucks.

[Obi Qai Gin]

That's the problem Kuwabara WASN'T too much for him. He never even hurt Ani. So I don't know how you can take his fight against Kazuma, cause he didn't consider Kuwabara a challenge so he never got serious with him. The only time he got serious, somewhat, during the DT is when he killed those three members of that team by himself.

[WoodenCoyote]

I think the point of Toguro Ani's fighting ability wasn't his power or strength but that he could survive anything you threw at him. An attacking youki could beat at him constantly without success until they exhausted themselves. Once worn down, they're easy to pick off.

[DarkPaw]

True, but you just said yourself that the other 2 members of Toguros team had to be good fighters, reguardless of relation why wouldn't the same be said for Ani? Toguro picked them for their fighting power, and also picked Genkai for the same reason. It's fair to assume he chose his brother for the same reason, given his size and strength Otouto could have easily forced Ani off the team if he was usesless and doubt his fighting abbilities.

Given that all fighters were human it is also fair to assume that they would need all the usefull fighters they could aquire on their team, why chance victory with a useless fighter? Not even Kuwabara was totaly useless and came through when it really counted.

True, the last DT does nothing to defend his credibility in the current DT. Though it does beg the question of does he not have fighting ability or that he simply choose not to use it in that type of manner.

[Godzilla]

It's difficult arguing perspective on the first tournament with so little information to base our arguments on. Honestly, your scenario is no more or less likely than mine, but both of our arguments here have very little substance. I personally believe Younger toguro has very little respect or patience for elders ability or behavior (this becomes more clear in the DT finals), but he tolerates him anyway because theyre related. On this note, I believe it's very possible that elder didn't necessarily deserve his spot on the first team, but thats just my opinion.

As for elders fight with Kazuma, I think most of us can at least agree that elder is not a very intelligent fighter. He literally gave Kazuma every opportunity to beat him, and was taken down rather easily by the sub-intelligent Kuwabara. There's a difference between arrogance and flat out stupidity, and I think a comparison of the 2 may help get my point across

Arrogance: Karasu vs Kurama.
Karasu had Suichi outmatched for a good portion of their fight, and could have relied on his impressive powers exclusively to hold his own. Karasu however, is a good fighter and was able to distract and taunt Kurama while keeping pace in the actual combat (he also survived a confrontation with Yoko, which isn't easy). Though Karasu's arrogance did cost him (his life, but not the match), it was only because Kurama's an insanely good strategist, and got a real lucky break in the end. Karasu's obviously a good fighter.

Stupidity: Kazuma vs Elder Toguro.
Elder taunts Kazuma with Genkai's death knowing what strong emotion does to human spirit energy (hopefully he knows). So, when given enough time even Kuwabara could figure out how to put elder down for the count. IMO, this makes elder an idiot, not just some arrogant fighter.

I've given you an example of how arrogance effects a good fighter, so theres no way it's simply arrogance that cost elder his fight with Kuwabara. It's obvious elder has no combative intelligence, and I'm not sure how you could become a good fighter without that.

Either way thats just my long winded opinion on the topic, and in the end it really won't matter (this argument is impossible for any of us to win :)).

[Obi Qai Gin]

Exactly Godzilla cause your two examples can be given vice versa. So it's a tough call.

[DarkPaw]

I have no doubt that younger simply put up with his brother near the end of the DT, his annoyance was showed clearly enough even before he hit his brother into a bloody mess.

I like to think of it as arrogant stupidity. While at the beginning of the fight he did taunt Kuwabara and was able to distract him. However it quickly turned to stupidity and he toyed with the wrong emotion. In my mind he knew exactly what the human spirit was capable of doing, having witnessed it the first time he and his brother fought both Kuwabara and Yusuke.

It's bad enough to lose to Kuwabara, then he comes back (sort of) and gets eaten by a death plant and is trapped inside it forever. His misfortune is hilarious, but the fact it was just that easy to put him out of commission is just pitiful. He doesn't have any combative strategy, which does make him that much less of a fighter.

Being the stubborn people we are, we could drag this out forever. These have definitely been some of the longest posts I've ever done, you make a great argument :).

[Ani Toguro]

...Never knew I was so hated :) . Anyway, if you may allow me, I'll be attempting to defend Ani Toguro as best as I can.

As Dark Paw said, AT's loss to Kuwabara can be considered arrogant stupidity. However...I view it as something more...a flaw that hurts villains in nearly all stories. I call it: "Malice." Face it: Ani Toguro is a sadist. As proven by his battle with Team Gorenjya (spelling is probably off here), he loves causing pain. My theory is this...what if it gets in the way of his fighting at times? It's my belief that he's distracted by violence and enjoys causing it. And...the fact that Kuwabara knew not of Genkai's death was too much of a chance to inflict pain to miss. After all, emotional pain is usually much more powerful then physical. For a sadist such as him, he couldn't resist. So, he wastes time torturing Kuwabara and taking pleasure in it. The fact that he knew of the increase that Kuwabara would have probably meant nothing to him, imo. Think about it like this: Tobacco addicts know that smoking can kill them, but they still do it. The thrill compels the addicts...and the consequences mean nothing. And now...most likely the controversial part of my little theory.

What if Kuwabara already knew what happened to Genkai? For Ani, Kuwabara's emotional pain would already be there and he wouldn't get to inflict it. I'm arguing that perhaps Kuwabara might not have had such an increase of power if he knew what happened to Genkai before the match. His anger would ARGUABLY be focused towards Otouto, the murderer. Not Ani, the man who had nothing to do with it. Without a chance to cause pain, Ani would probably get straight to business. And...without his increase, I doubt Kuwabara would make it out alive. Now, I admit that he MIGHT survive, but I doubt it. The one thing that would probably save him would be the support of his team, which Gorenjya had none of. Ani was succesful in splitting the team apart through his offer of sparing. Without their unity, it was a blowout. However, Team Urameshi has unity. They stick together: they help each other unlike Team Gorenjya. In conclusion, it is my theory that Ani would have an easier time killing Kuwabara if he wasn't ignorant of what happened to Genkai.

Now...on to fighting skills. I honestly doubt that Ani was even a fighter! For all we know, he might not've been part of the orignal Toguro team! Although...it brings up the question of why Otouto would have him become a demon with him. Which...I have no answer for. However, the one part about Ani's fighting style that I respect is his mental intimidation. While some may aruge that Karasu beats him here, I say otherwise. Ani was smart enough to have a basic form that's easy to underestimate. He dosen't transform into a hulking beast: he stays small. Would you be threatened by a midget who dosen't cut his hair? I think not! There is nearly NOTHING intimidating about him. Easy to catch opponents off guard...no? He also split up the Gorenjya team with his offer, following to the quote "divide and conquer". This must take some mental strategy. I can't form any real conclusions about his fighting experience: we simply don't know.

In conclusion, I'm a Ani fanboy. I'll defend him to death. And...I'm tired.

[Godzilla]

Thanks Darkpaw, truthfully many good arguments have been given on both sides of this discussion, which is surprising given how little we have to go on.

It sounds like we at least agree that at the time of the dark tournament Ani was a pretty pathetic fighter, even though it's impossible to tell whether he lost his skill by relying on his demon powers, or if he never had any skill to begin with. It's tough to imagine an actual fighter losing his skill to the point where he'd lose to a slow-witted 15yr old boy, especially considering how unstoppable the demon powers he acquired are. For this reason I'm inclined to believe Ani never had any skill to begin with, but I guess I'll never know.

As for you Ani Toguro I'll try to address as many of your points as I can, that was an impressively long post u made. :)

As for 'malice' being what costed Ani the match, if pure sadism could cause a fighter to mess up that badly Karasu would've been done in easily. Sadistic malice can be a powerful intimidation tool when used by an intelligent/skilled fighter, but Ani managed to let it cost him an easy fight. Again it all boils down to Ani being a sub-par fighter, so don't let ani's sadistic nature blind you to his underlying problem (he's a dumb fighter).

Secondly, if Kuwabara already knew about Genkai's death it may have altered the fight, but Ani's initial gameplan seemed to be pissing Kuwabara off throughout the fight (being annoying is just in Ani's nature I guess). I'm willing to bet Ani would still have made all the lewd comments about Genkai, and taunted Kuwabara with her death to the point of severely irritating him. Your scenario doesn't really change the fact that Ani's not a very good fighter. :)

In your final paragraph it seems you agree with me that Ani has no fighting skills, or most likely never was a fighter. That makes this easy. As for the few instances that Ani seemed to devise a strategy, I think your giving Ani too much credit. Ani Keeping his basic form wasn't exactly his choice, it's a result of the demon power he was bestowed with. He doesn't change into a big intimidating monster because he can't. As for team gorenjya, Ani offered to fight them all by himself, so I doubt divide and conquer was his initial strategy.

[Obi Qai Gin]

Ani can change his body into anything, so why can't he change into a big hulking shape? :). Before the DT when we first see Ani and Toguro, the way they converse, you would believe that Ani has a level of skill to what he does. I think that Ani may be a very smart fighter. Toguro wanted to fight Yusuke because he needed someone stronger than him to be able to kill him and set him free. Now Ani didn't want to die, but never the less I bet he wanted a GOOD fight. Whats the only way he could get this? To taunt Kuwabara. Through the match before Kuwabara got upset, Ani was BEASTING him in almost every catagory. I mean, if you hd the power of Ani would you be scared that K is going to kill you?? :). Come on now. And what's worse is that K didn't REALLY win the match, Ani just stayed hidden until Toguro's fight.

[Ani Toguro]

*wakes up and sees that Godzilla countered all of my points* Blast...it's not over yet!

I can't help but say that Karasu's sadism got in the way of his fight with Kurama. After all...why didn't he take his mask off at the beginning of the fight? It would've made his fight much easier...rather, he chose to play around with Kurama. Torturing, even. If he's such an intelligent fighter...why not killl Kurama at the beginning of the fight? Now...I'm not impressed by his mental intimidation. ...Does it take any real effort to scare a guy by blowing his arm up? If Ani did the same, I'm sure the guy would've been just as scared. Not to mention that Kurama is a worrywart (part of his strategic nature) and was simply worrying about his fight with Karasu. Is it that hard to scare Kurama, a guy who takes everything into calculation? I don't think so...

Now...a bit more comments about Ani's powers. Tell me...which is easier? To use fighting skills in a smart way...or to poke someone. Ani's powers make it EASIER for him to rely on something other then fighting skills. It's like this: Would you rather shoot someone, or fight them?

Finally...onward to the fight with Kurama. Ani was revealed around that time to be partially immortal. Now...isn't it a bit of a problem on how to kill an immortal? Similar to Garlic Jr. from Dragonball, Ani must be taken down in a cheap way. Hence why I refer to the Nightmare Tree as a..."plot device".

I'm going back to bed...

[DarkPaw]

Karasu wanted to toy with Kurama, he knew Kurama was a strategist and wanted to show him that he could match him move for move and thought for thought. I aslo believe that he wanted to fight Youko Kurama. It's like when Otouto fought Yusuke, he could have gone 100% on him anytime he wished but he didn't until near the end of the match. If you know you can defeat someone easily, it's funner to strip them of all pride and humility then finally end their suffering. In Otouto's case, anger him enough to see what his true power is and relieve Otouto's pain.

It seems Ani relied on his powers so much he simply doesn't think about anything else, perhaps he even forgot his training in hand-to-hand combat if he even had any to begin with. This remains a total mystery and is subject to pure speculation.

[Dreakon]

Qbi, Ani Toguro can turn into weapons and manipulate his body, but I see no indication that he can transform into say... a dinosaur. I don't think Ani's a shapeshifter in the traditional sense, his powers are more specialized.

Now Ani, Kurama's probably the most calm collected fighter on the Urameshi team, so your claim that he's easily scared is just ridiculous. His caution in battle makes it very difficult to throw him off his game, so Karasu definitely deserves some credit in that respect. Kurama's probably the best mental fighter on the team, and Kuwabara's combative intelligence barely exists, so you can't honestly give Ani credit for pissing off Kuwabara then getting his ass kicked. :)
Also FYI, the Toguro team had Gorenjya completely outmatched, so no attempts at strategy or intimidation were even made by toguros team there.

As for Ani's power, it is a bit easier to rely on but he obviously can't rely on it exclusively to win. Even a moderately intelligent fighter with Ani Toguro's powers could've avoided the embarassing losses and incapacitations Ani's endured by actually implementing a bit of physical and mental combat. As for your gun analogy, I'd obviouosly rather shoot the guy, but I wouldn't just wound him then sit there until he pulls his gun and fires at me. A little intelligence in combat can go a long way :)

[Ani Toguro]

*snaps his fingers in frustration* One day...you'll all see! This fanboy shall not be silenced...yet.

[DarkPaw]

It would be interesting to have them do a small series for the lesser characters on what happened to them after YYH. Maybe then Ani would get his chance to proove himself if he can ever find some way out of the tree. I am curious about what happened to Bui after all of this was over, and to the other fighters that survived to DT. Though it does allow people to come up with their own theories, it requires me to think too much for my own safety.

[Godzilla]

Accidently posted my last point on my brothers name (Dreakon). Kinda stupid but had to clear that up. :)

[Obi Qai Gin]

I didn't say he could turn into a dinosaur, but that maybe he could make himself bigger, but who knows. I'm just trying to show that there is just as many reasons to speculate that Ani's a fighter then there is against him.

[WoodenCoyote]

Ani seems at times to be more like a parasite, feeding off Toguro Ototo's success. Maybe its the way he sat on his shoulder that makes me think that..

[BTW, I just bought an awesome Toguro Ani cel. Kinda creepy]

[BadBird]

*
I can't help but say that Karasu's sadism got in the way of his fight with Kurama. After all...why didn't he take his mask off at the beginning of the fight? It would've made his fight much easier...rather, he chose to play around with Kurama. Torturing, even. If he's such an intelligent fighter...why not killl Kurama at the beginning of the fight? Now...I'm not impressed by his mental intimidation. ...Does it take any real effort to scare a guy by blowing his arm up? If Ani did the same, I'm sure the guy would've been just as scared. Not to mention that Kurama is a worrywart (part of his strategic nature) and was simply worrying about his fight with Karasu. Is it that hard to scare Kurama, a guy who takes everything into calculation? I don't think so...



Now that you mentioned it. It is funny how Bui's the only member of Toguro's team, that didn't and couldn't toy with his opponent from Teamm Uremishie. Kurama was sexually harased, Kuwabara was humiliated and Yusuke watched his best friend being killed (Or, so he thought). But Hiei didn't take any of Bui's garbage. :D

Anyway, I just thought that was intresting.

I have no idea how stron Ani was? But, I got the impression that to do obtain the really impressive powers you had to be pretty strong. Yusuke worked his but off to perfect his Rei gun, Kurama didn't regain his really powerful plant powers till later and such was the case with Kuwabara and Hiei's powers. So, to be able to take a Rei gun blast, be cut up in little pieces and live. That has to say something about the freaks power, dosen't it?