Is it possible.......

[New York Man]

For a SS2 to be stronger than a SS3?

For Example: SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku.

Is that possible?

[Crazysilver03]

A SSJ2 could never truly be more powerful than a SSJ3. I think the only time you could come close is SSJ2 Gohan or Vegeta compared to SSJ3 Gotenks.

Either way, SSJ3 is going to give you more power but it has the restrictions to it, but with the enery surge provided by SSJ3 there will be enough time to defeat the opponent.

[SaiyaMel04]

Yay! a non-GT topic.

Actually, i think that with years of intense training in the right conditions, it's possible for a Saiyan to achieve the power of an SSJ3 in SSJ2 state...hell, even in SSJ1 state for that matter (Vegetto is proof of that, even though he's a fusion). the only reason they transform to access higher levels of power is becuz their bodies in their current physiques at those points, were unable to access or handle that much power without transforming first... all the Saiyan transformations (from oozaru to the SSJ levels) alters their physiques by incresing their physical durability so they can bring out/access any current potential without harming themselves.

[myth buster]

With his mystic powers, Gohan was stronger than SS3 Goku without transforming at all. He even one-upped SS3 Gotenks.

[Hemostrat]

A SSJ2 could never truly be more powerful than a SSJ3. I think the only time you could come close is SSJ2 Gohan or Vegeta compared to SSJ3 Gotenks.
.

Didn't AT say the SSJ3 Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku though?

[94_BLOCK]

Didn't AT say the SSJ3 Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku though?

I didn't hear that but i think SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku because Goku said it himself that if they fuse they could beat Buu but didn't

[myth buster]

We could probably assume that to be true, because they faired so well against Super Buu, and fought him to a stalemate. Goku couldn't do damage to any Buu he fought until he used the spirit bomb.

[ssj wolverine]

Goku couldn't do damage to any Buu he fought until he used the spirit bomb.

Goku handled Fat Buu pretty well and could have destroyed him if he wanted. if you watch it again, SSJ3 Goku got in a couple of licks on Super Buu 2 after Gohan dropped the potara earings and last but not least Goku went toe to toe with Kid Buu did some damage to it even before the spirit bomb.

[ssj wolverine]

There is no way that SSJ2 can be superior to SSJ3. Even with SSJ3 limitations, SSJ3 Goku would have made a fool of Vegeta before beating his ass.

[CBASS]

Well power aint shinola if you're naive, goofin off every other second, and not expiericed. I think that ssj2 gohan would of beat gotenks back in cell games( but baby trunks and fetus goten would need to be born and 7 years pass!). Gohan had focus, gohan was cunning, not to mention he could kick ur ass. Gohan basicly fought off gotens and trunks attacks because they leraned them from there fathers who just happened to have cell know all there attacks, not to mention future trunks attacks. Gotencks could EVENTUALLY kill gohan off in the series but like when gohan was first a ssj2 and gotencks was makin attacks. Now gohan is a wussbag(in saiyan terms, he'd kick my ass_all over!)

[Seeker]

Personally I with Saiyanmel04 a SSj2 can outpower a SSj3. The thing you have to remember about the Goku/Vegeta fight was that both of them had had roughly the same amount of time to train and by that stage were about equal in power level with Goku being perhaps a little stronger so the SSj3 would naturally be stronger than Vegeta's SSj2. However if you took saiyans at different stages of power then you could easily get SSj2's who were stronger than SSj3's as mentioned Vegetto.

Lets consider for a moment Goku's power level based on what I've heard are reasonably reliable sources at the Frieza/Warnings points in the timeline. When he fought Frieza Goku was at SSj and had a power level of 15 million, when he fought Trunks in the warnings from the future saga he had a level of at least 40 million. Now that means his power more than doubled in the inbetween years so we consider the SSj multipliers. Most people I've seen feel that 50* is roughly acceptable for SSj, about double that for SSj2 and double that for SSj3. For the sake of this argument lets say that somehow Goku was able to achieve all 3 stages at both points in his life and work off the doubling concept.

That means we're looking at the following power levels.

Frieza Goku
Normal: 300,000
SSj: 15,000,000
SSj2: 30,000,000
SSj3: 60,000,000

Warnings Goku
Normal: 800,000
SSj: 40,000,000
SSj2: 80,000,000
SSj3: 160,000,000

Now please don't tell me the power levels are inacurate since I personally don't agree with them except for the SSj ones which as I said seem to be fairly well accepted or from a source thats at least semi-official. The point here is that we know Goku got stronger and as you can see here Goku's SSj2 form at the warnings stage is more powerful than his SSj3 form would have been at the Frieza saga. Now if you accept the fact that saiyans/races get stronger with training (at least up to a point) you would similarly accept that as their base form gets stronger their transformed forms get stronger and thus its possible for a SSjX to be stronger than higher level transformations if the base fighter is more powerful than their opponent. Its why SSj3 Goku/Gotenks were weaker than Complete Buu but Mystic Gohan or SSj Vegetto weren't. Likewise by the Buu saga I believe that any of the Saiyans SSj form would have been equal-stronger than a SSj3 form of their earlier power levels if it had been achieved then.

[majin buu]

similar but not all together the same as mel and seeker have said - i will reveal my view on it -

the whole aspect of training is to bring out power. it was stated in the manga that potential energy is energy within the person that cannot be accessed. this is due to the fact that a body cannot handle too much energy or else it will explode (kamikaze).

training increases the potential pool of energy everyone has, but also - makes the body stronger so that it can suppport more energy from the potential pool - thus becoming stronger.

now the SSJ transformations change the body's durablity instantly - allowing for much more power to be accessed from the potential pool of energy. as to whe this transformation happens remains a mystery to me. it could be that a certain prcentage of potential energy being "called" is what triggers the transformation (i use percentages to allow for the amount of power to not be fixed for any stage, but rather - for that power to be fixed for the individual and only the individual).

in any case, training increases potential and durablity so if a saiya-jin trained to, oh lets say 100 PL, and wanted to access SSJ - he could and transform to a PL of 5000.

now, if that same saiya-jin trains once more, and is now 150PL, he can transform and be at a PL of 7500.

this means that eventually, the saiya-jin CAN train to 5000 base PL and thus, be as strong as his SSJ ONCE was.

now applying this to the db world - potential can be gained by any type of training, HOWEVER the body isn't. the body needs stronger methods to see the same gain it once did. this means that once a person trains to a certain point in the human world, he can't train any further because no such "challenge" exists for him or her. this happened to vejita when he trained for SSJ2. he reached it, however he couldn't be stronger than a NSSJ2, or at max - a normal SSJ2. he couldn't reach a PSSJ2 in terms of power because he didn't have the availability of more strenous training that gokou had in the afterlife.

this leads me to my next point - the afterlife provides unrestricted training since the body isn't limited to being destroyed since its already dead. the afterlife will allow any person to be as strong as they want to be if they train for it.

so lets set up an example. gokou and vejita have a PL of any given number in base. now gokou and vejita train more and more and more until they reache the road block of not having any more strenous training in the human/mortal world. both their bases are maxed out at 100PL each. at this PL - both can go to all 3 SSJ levels.

base - 100
SSJ - 5000
SSJ2 - 10,000
SSJ3 - 20,000

now, gokou dies. and he trains further in the afterlife. since he's unrestricted in the afterlife - he trains to 500 PL.

now gokou magically comes back, but vejita couldn't train anymore - he was only able to maintain his 100 base PL.

gokou goes SSJ2 while vejita goes SSJ3 -

gokou SSJ2 - 50,000
vejita SSJ3 - 20,000

hence gokou's SSJ2 defeats vejita's SSJ3.

so for that entire post - my point is this -

it is very possible, however only if afterlife training is available.

[SaiyaMel04]

Your theory, buu and mine, are basically the same...you just worded it differently (and certainly more thoroughly).

[Mr. Announcer]

Well, again, that's only if you assume that SS levels are multipliers. If you assume that an SS level is a fixed level of power that when reached will cause any saiyan to transform, then there is no possible way for an SS2 to be more powerful than an SS3 because simply, if the SS2 were to become as strong as an SS3 then they would transform. This kind of coincides with the fact that Vegeta, when he became a SS was about as powerful as Gokuh despite the fact that his base form was actually alot weaker. There's not alot of evidence that points either way really but for the most part, I stuck with this one because over the years Gokuh multiplied his power by much more than Vegeta and probably had much more opportunity for well...the "catharsis". Yet, they reached the stage at around the same time. This points more towards a fixed level for SS. Then again, there isn't a really a doubt in my mind that after a while Gokuh was able to make his base form as powerful as his SS form, so then the SS could be regarded more as the excessive release of potentially useable energy. In that case, I suppose you could have an SS2 more powerful than an SS3 but I think initially, it would be impossible. Like I believe it's been mentioned, The SS2 could only become more powerful than the former SS3 level.

[majin buu]

the inherit problem with half of that is -

if you assume that there is a set level for SSJ where once someone tries to access beyond that - they transform, then your essentially making this level universal, in that - every SSJ would be as strong as another SSJ - only the times when they appear are different. this is just not the case.

the power of any given individual is what determines when he or she transforms. this is why i made sure to say percentage, and not a specific PL. if its a universal percentage - then its restricted to only that individual, since only he or she has that amount ofd power and becomes SSJ at that time.

also there is nothing to say that if you increase base - then SSJ would be stronger as well. this is why they always train in base - this also implies that SSJ is a multiplier since only if its a multiplier does working out in base help the other levels. the only hinderance to power gain is the figurative road block where mortal world training can't improve the body anymore.

[Mr. Announcer]

well y'see, that's just it. If it was percntage based then there's no way Gokuh and Vegeta would have gained the SS powerup on such close terms. Vegeta wasn't multiplying his energy anywhere near as much as Gokuh was up to that point. The only way that appears to make sense is that simply overall Vegeta had more power to begin with so he was closer and could attain the level faster. This isn't to say that no SS can be more powerful than another, since it's abvious there are ways to grow stronger within the state but that would make it so that an SS level below could never be more powerful than an individual of a higher level.

Besides that, I think the only one we've seen training in their base form after achieving SS is Gokuh. Vegeta, Gohan, etc.. train in their SS forms. And in the instance where we see Gokuh training in his base form, it's in preparation for the tournament so I'm guessing he was assuming that he wouldn't be able to use the SS anyway.

Like I said, I don't really support either theory but I can't really see why this couldn't very well be the case.

[majin buu]

well y'see, that's just it. If it was percntage based then there's no way Gokuh and Vegeta would have gained the SS powerup on such close terms. Vegeta wasn't multiplying his energy anywhere near as much as Gokuh was up to that point. The only way that appears to make sense is that simply overall Vegeta had more power to begin with so he was closer and could attain the level faster. This isn't to say that no SS can be more powerful than another, since it's abvious there are ways to grow stronger within the state but that would make it so that an SS level below could never be more powerful than an individual of a higher level.

i don't quite understand what your implying. are you implying that vejita SSJ was close to gokou's SSJ? in what time - freezer or android?

Besides that, I think the only one we've seen training in their base form after achieving SS is Gokuh. Vegeta, Gohan, etc.. train in their SS forms. And in the instance where we see Gokuh training in his base form, it's in preparation for the tournament so I'm guessing he was assuming that he wouldn't be able to use the SS anyway.

why wouldn't he use his SSJ? they didn't even come up with that part till gohan told everyone on the plane to the budokai. also, gokou was in base doing weight training - that to me says training, and not just preparation...