Has Yugioh become TOO broken?

[jeremylin]

I saw this in another forum, and I thought it was a good read and it made a lot of sense. Tell me what you think about it.

original source (http://www.yugiohcardguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29594)

MysticJhn said
Now, this game has always been about getting to your best monsters before the other guy.
That's pretty basic strategy, get out your main monster with the good effect, and crush the opponent.
First one to the finish line wins the duel.
And as this game progressed, this started being done faster and faster.
Soon, if you didn't swarm first or second turn, you lost.
But that's not good enough anymore.
Now you not only have to swarm, but swarm with boss monsters.

I sat on DN before in a duel, and yes they have cards on there not yet released and won't be for a while,
but it was preposterous.
Summon.
Special Summon.
Xyz Summon.
Special Summon.
Special Summon.
Another Xyz.
Special Summon.
etc.
...

I sat there bewildered at what I can only assume was about 15 straight summons before they crushed my single card field.
Massive crazy effects going on back and forth, playing at a speed at which I gave up trying to read the effects and just assumed they weren't cheating.
Now I know my Deck wasn't even close to competition level, but this was insane.
Every monster can swarm the field by itself, then destroy something, then have a decent attack.

Makes me think that perhaps this game has hit a point of no return with the speed and power of these cards far exceeding anything previously.

The other day, as I was in control of the field ATK wise, they played 1 monster and knocked me down.
A simple Level 5 monster, the only monster they controlled, had 4000 ATK.
Why?
Because it's effect allowed it to have ATK equal to half my LP at the time of it's Summon, which was the full 8000.
Why is a Level 5 monster powerful enough to run over my Level 8 Ancient Gear Gadjiltron Dragon with plenty of ATK to spare?
When did this game get so crazy unbalanced that a Level 5 monster can be that strong?

I think the problem lies with Konami.
In order to force us to buy new cards, they keep releasing cards that are more powerful than their predecessors in effect to the point where older cards are obsolete.
They did that in GX, then did it again in 5Ds, and now are doing it again in this ZeXal era.
The problem with this is, every time they feel compelled to one-up themselves, the card effects become exponentially more powerful than ever before.

Look at your oldest effect monsters.
Usually they have 1 simple effect, that does 1 or 2 simple things, and they tend to pay for it by having a lower ATK/DEF.
Now compare that to a monster of the same level that's coming out in the next couple sets.
There is a drastic difference.

Then there's the Extra Deck.
It used to be home to your biggest, baddest boss monsters.
The ones your whole Deck was geared to getting out that could win the game for you.
Now look at it.
It's a cheap toolbox of overpowered monsters.
You played a single Tour Guide and bust out a beatstick with an awesome effect that you got to SS without even drawing it.

I'm starting to feel like Yu-Gi-Oh has gotten to a point where it's so self broken, it's hit the point where it needs to implode like a sun.
Effects are too strong, individual monsters have too many of them, and being an effect monster has no downside like a low ATK.
Every single card is a brutal play, then your opponent's turn comes, they wipe out your whole field, and it's their turn to SS 40,000 times.

This game perhaps needs a Yu-Gi-Oh TCG 2, start fresh, start balanced, and stop releasing cards that are infitely one-upmanship of last season's.

[Mark Howard]

You know something's horribly wrong when every set has been totally changing the meta, and to the point where nothing but Zexal-era decks are even remotely competitively viable. I hate to say it, but Yugioh really does need a Reboot. Hell, we already have a block rotation right now, in the sense that all of the decks you once loved are unplayable garbage now.

[darkcrab]

You know something's horribly wrong when every set has been totally changing the meta, and to the point where nothing but Zexal-era decks are even remotely competitively viable. I hate to say it, but Yugioh really does need a Reboot. Hell, we already have a block rotation right now, in the sense that all of the decks you once loved are unplayable garbage now.

I wouldn't go typing that around here, lotsa folk still think theres no set rotation here, even if every deck pre Zexal is near trash now competetiv wise :P.

But meh, thats ygo, ill always have DN so i don't need to pay a dime and even watch the horror known as thier general chat.

[SolarLunar]

"MTG sux cause it has set rotation"
Pffwa, at least Magic is honest about it's set rotation.

A Reboot is an interesting idea, but one that will never win popularity points. Who wants to start from scratch? Definitely not Konami.

[Sister Princess]

Fun fact: Yugioh is already broken since 1999.

[SCTyran]

All of these threads about how YGO is broken sounds to me like a bunch of sore losers who take the game WAY too seriously.

[SirDragonite]

All of these threads about how YGO is broken sounds to me like a bunch of sore losers who take the game WAY too seriously.

I agree with this. Hell, I barely spend money on this game anymore. I just play DN.

[DIYDeath]

I agree with this. Hell, I barely spend money on this game anymore. I just play DN.

Then this doesn't really apply to you. You get "free" cards and play for free vs people who get the same benefits.
If something is broken you can use it without investing anything but time and creativity.

[SirDragonite]

Then this doesn't really apply to you. You get "free" cards and play for free vs people who get the same benefits.
If something is broken you can use it without investing anything but time and creativity.

I know. I'm too casual IRL. The best deck I have is Dark World of all things.

[DIYDeath]

I've boycotted konami and support the petition.
I don't even play on DN anymore, it's just not fun or fair with all these broken decks running around.

[Mark Howard]

All of these threads about how YGO is broken sounds to me like a bunch of sore losers who take the game WAY too seriously.

Automatic loss = I'm just being a sore loser? I suppose if I kill your entire family and it makes you sad, you're just a crybaby.

[DIYDeath]

Automatic loss = I'm just being a sore loser? I suppose if I kill your entire family and it makes you sad, you're just a crybaby.

You sir, deserve a medal for this comment.

[Grynhild]

The other day, as I was in control of the field ATK wise, they played 1 monster and knocked me down.
A simple Level 5 monster, the only monster they controlled, had 4000 ATK.
Why?
Because it's effect allowed it to have ATK equal to half my LP at the time of it's Summon, which was the full 8000.
Why is a Level 5 monster powerful enough to run over my Level 8 Ancient Gear Gadjiltron Dragon with plenty of ATK to spare?
When did this game get so crazy unbalanced that a Level 5 monster can be that strong?

Lol, the guy thinks that Endless Decay is broken, i wonder how he will react after seeing things like Inzektors.

[CED-EOTE<3]

Competitively, yes. Decks are autopilot and just too overpowered. Advantage is too easily generated, often by one card. With rescue rabbit, we may as well unban Pot of Greed. That way, at least all players have an easy +1 in their decks, rather than rich people only.

[Gaspar]

I did laugh at the part where the guy ranted about Endless Decay.
...Even though yes, it is a little busted if you watch it from the old-school perspective.

[SameSongNDance]

You sir, deserve a medal for this comment.

Yeah he definitely deserves a medal for trying to compare losing a Yu-Gi-Oh! duel to killing someone's family after being accused of taking the game too seriously.

[Sky Scourge]

Lavals are pretty awesome

[Gaspar]

...If you draw Rekindling.

[SInge]

The game fluxes to easily. Ban/Restriction List doesn't work with the game but against it.

As new cards come out, it can turn the game into a whole new frontier.

Konami tries to fix one problem then 2+ new problems pop up.

Even some old cards which were once shunned as weak just easily jump to the top as some of the best made, Cold Wave.

[DIYDeath]

Yeah he definitely deserves a medal for trying to compare losing a Yu-Gi-Oh! duel to killing someone's family after being accused of taking the game too seriously.

If you don't see why the comment was made then you need to just stop posting. period.

[Chaos Li]

I like a comment i've read on a thread similar to this one that says old cards on the ban list shoul've released now the game has evolved and catched up to their power.

I think cards like Chaos Emperor Dragon wouldn't be that big of a menace now, specially with stuff like Wind-Ups on the game.

[DIYDeath]

Dear god. CED cannot come back, it does what an entire wind-up loop does, alone and if you run hopeless dragon then you can end your turn with 2-3 REDMD dragons on the field after you've decimated your opponents hand, field and life points.

[Chaos Li]

Dear god. CED cannot come back, it does what an entire wind-up loop does, alone and if you run hopeless dragon then you can end your turn with 2-3 REDMD dragons on the field after you've decimated your opponents hand, field and life points.

I guess it's a similar case with Yata-Garasu, a format changing card, his prescence alon will raise the use of Battle Fader, Gorz, Tragoedia and stuff like that xDU

[SCTyran]

Automatic loss = I'm just being a sore loser? I suppose if I kill your entire family and it makes you sad, you're just a crybaby.
You know, I can understand that people would get frustated with decks that can easily beat them. But whining won't solve anything. The banlist is like 30 cards that you can't use/restricted out of 6000+ cards released. There has to be a way to make a deck that would help against these competetive ones. It just hasn't been found yet.

[Inori Yuzuriha]

Yes, some cards are simply dramatically overpowered when the go to combo with others, and they're not even limited now

[SkyressKing]

The game fluxes to easily. Ban/Restriction List doesn't work with the game but against it.

As new cards come out, it can turn the game into a whole new frontier.

Konami tries to fix one problem then 2+ new problems pop up.

Even some old cards which were once shunned as weak just easily jump to the top as some of the best made, Cold Wave.

SInge said everything I wanted to say perfectly. The block rotation is caused by the banlist. All the past top tier decks are hit by the banlist (eg. Synchros, Agents) so that new top tier decks occur. While older cards may be at the same level of "broken" as newer cards, the older cards are hit by the list so that players have to purchase more cards to keep up with the game.

This game can be easily fixed by fixing up the banlist. Allow more Archetype support to come off the banlist so there is a more diverse metagame. Instead of limiting the Tier 1 decks to 3 types (Rabbit-Dino, Wind-Ups, Inzektors), older archetypes can be reintroduced into the game (Lightsworns, GBs, Blackwings, etc.). As a result, all the cards on the same level of "broken" will compete with each other and the players won't complain that the game is costing too much.

[ryu991]

This game can be easily fixed by fixing up the banlist. Allow more Archetype support to come off the banlist so there is a more diverse metagame. Instead of limiting the Tier 1 decks to 3 types (Rabbit-Dino, Wind-Ups, Inzektors), older archetypes can be reintroduced into the game (Lightsworns, GBs, Blackwings, etc.). As a result, all the cards on the same level of "broken" will compete with each other and the players won't complain that the game is costing too much.

this ^^

the game does not need a Reboot, it needs a banlist that konami takes seriously. The problem is konami does not take this game or the banlist seriously, they simply use it to push product.

If konami actually cared about the game as a competitive game they would do the right thing and keep the banlist current with new set releases and pre-emptively ban or limit problem cards before they become a problem.

take wind up hunter, hes clearly broken and is making competitive play a joke, anyone with even an elementary understanding of yugioh gets this, but he will not get touched until september. WHich gives the players 6 months of a terrible format and then who knows what will be out by then.

The solution to making yugioh a fun and more balanced game is a very simple one, it is just one that konami refuses to do.

[Chaos Li]

^ I agree, things wouldn't be so frustrating if Konami were constant with the support for older archetypes. It's good to always have new themes for our decks but not at the cost of ruining th existing archetypes entirely.

The was a time were thing were more balanced, Konami banned cards from certain archetype but around the same time those cards were replaced with new more balanced card for the same archetype.

They could also give support for some of the most unsupported archetypes out there like Crystals, Scrap or Nordic. Or even support for old unused ones like Archfiend, Dark Scorpion or Guardians. It's good to balance out pwoerfull cards but i don't like seeing entire archetypes leave in the dust after that xDU. Blackwings had a good time, they got their most powerfull tools banned/limited quite frequently but at the same time a constant flow of new more balanced support gave new options and variety to mantain the deck decent and fun to play.

Hope those days came back.

[Gaspar]

Actually, Blackwings never got anything banned... other than maybe Goyo Guardian, who was hit more due to being an out to Xyz. And they never replaced anything. The good Blackwings are the early ones, plus Zephyros and maybe the level 3 Tuner from The Shining Darkness.

[Novaria]

I'll be honest, I gave up on this game getting any better after they absolutely refused to support older archetypes. I'm all for powerful new ones, but not when it means that the last ten or so boosters become crap.

I only have one deck now, Fortune Ladies - a decent archetype, but uncomparable to modern Tier 1 decks. There is no more "play your favorites," but instead it's "play what wins." I don't like that.

In fact, I've started playing Magic now because it's not as bad or broken. Yeah, you have set rotation, but you don't HAVE to play that. There's plenty of other playable formats. Casually playing, I have the same amount of fun that I used to with Yugioh. It's more balanced that way, and I believe this game is slowly decaying because of these major flaws.

[Mr Hyena]

You know, I can understand that people would get frustated with decks that can easily beat them. But whining won't solve anything. The banlist is like 30 cards that you can't use/restricted out of 6000+ cards released. There has to be a way to make a deck that would help against these competetive ones. It just hasn't been found yet.

Yugioh isn't that difficult. If there was a way, it would have been found now.

[SInge]

The first step to fixing this game is a new business model.

Wizards tends to throw around the words, "High quality product that is worth the money players pay." You pay money for the cards and you expect to be able to play those cards.

We can complain all we want about this game, but unless Konami changes its business behavior towards this game then nothing changes.

Another thing I'm going to say is the constant recycling of card effects. The game seems to be running low on ideas, a lot of the cards I see now is just a rehash version of similar effects.

[Sky Scourge]

Lavals are always fresh

[meta14]

Lol, Endless Decay is worse than garbage, compared to cards used competitively.

[Crown_Axe]

You know, I can understand that people would get frustated with decks that can easily beat them. But whining won't solve anything. The banlist is like 30 cards that you can't use/restricted out of 6000+ cards released. There has to be a way to make a deck that would help against these competetive ones. It just hasn't been found yet.

and 5500 of those cards aren't playable

[Novaria]

and 5500 of those cards aren't playable

Quoted for emphasis.

[Black Adam]

Lavals are always fresh

That doesn't contribute to the discussion in anyway. and the deck relies to much on Rekindling. :T

[Asterisk]

Reboot...interesting idea.
But, if they really REALLY start from scratch, that wont be attractive to many players, thus they will leave, which isnt good to Konami.
So, no.

[SkyressKing]

I believe Yu-Gi-Oh! is reaching its end. The anime is getting less and less viewers compared to older series and ZeXal may very well be the final series. The playerbase consists mainly of older players who stuck around over the years and there are not many newer players joining the game. The popularity has gone down.

http://www.google.com/trends/?q=Yu-Gi-Oh!&ctab=0&geo=all&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

The previous target audience is getting too old for the anime and the younger audience may not join the game. In short, Konami might just want to make as much money as possible before ending the game. ><

[jeremylin]

I believe Yu-Gi-Oh! is reaching its end. The anime is getting less and less viewers compared to older series and ZeXal may very well be the final series. The playerbase consists mainly of older players who stuck around over the years and there are not many newer players joining the game. The popularity has gone down.

http://www.google.com/trends/?q=Yu-Gi-Oh!&ctab=0&geo=all&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

The previous target audience is getting too old for the anime and the younger audience may not join the game. In short, Konami might just want to make as much money as possible before ending the game. ><

I'm worried about this too.
The very dynamics of XYZ summoning is broken and, like the article mentioned, the game is breaking itself up more and more with every set and banlist. Konami may very well be trying to capitalize on XYZs before the whole game collapses. But with that said, I hope the game lasts for a few more years and that Konami shifts gears.

[DIYDeath]

So basically ever since Teledad era Yugioh has been steadily losing its demograph. Well there's a shocker *insert sarcasm here*.
Only if Konami would have updated Yugioh to match the relative age group of their demograph.

[Novaria]

I say it's completely their fault if it ends. I've been a fan from the beginning, and have watched them go overboard with the money-making broken aspect of the game. It's getting old and nobody wants to dish out that kind of money anymore. The anime series is crap now (from what I hear - I never dared watching after the original series, maybe a little bit of GX).

In other words, they've had plenty of opportunities to make things right and they just keep screwing up. It's not just one thing either. It's the ban lists, card rarities, overpowered archetypes - the list goes on. I never thought I'd switch to Magic (granted, I kept one Yugioh deck), but it makes me feel like I used to with Yugioh. For starters, I think Konami would do a hell of a lot better if they would stop targeting younger people. The only ones still around dishing out the big bucks are the competitive older players.

[SCTyran]

Everyone is so unhappy...is it wierd that I'm not?

[DarkLink32]

I think you just have to have money to play the game now or just lucky

[SInge]

The anime and manga came up with some interesting cards, but the game failed to transition them over to real cards.

Even the video games take a hit, Tag Force 3 and 6 which mark the end of their anime series aren't released outside of Japan.

Themes are broken up into two forms. They either start out strong to make the run or fall flat on their face.

Zexal is a good marker. How many versions of Negate Attacks and damage prevention do they need to make?

[SkyressKing]

Another issue is that Konami constantly creates new game mechanics and if that fails, they move on. Even in the successful mechanics, Konami has to ruin them before creating a new one (eg. introducing Xyzs, killing off Synchros).

In the later packs, NO Synchros have been released. There have been very few Fusions and Rituals released recently (aside from Gem-Knights and Gishkis and even those ended abruptly). Older mechanics such as Spirit, Gemini have been completely forgotten. I for one was really interested in the Senet concept (but they only released like 4 support cards). Instead, Konami is pushing people to play Xyzs.

I bet you that if Yu-Gi-Oh! continues for another few years, Xyzs will be no longer be used and we will be using pink cards instead. Outdated mechanics are either too underpowered or restricted by the banlist. In order to keep up with the game, once again: More Money.

[Beatdownmaster]

Automatic loss = I'm just being a sore loser? I suppose if I kill your entire family and it makes you sad, you're just a crybaby.

Nice strawman.

[Chaos Pancake]

Another issue is that Konami constantly creates new game mechanics and if that fails, they move on. Even in the successful mechanics, Konami has to ruin them before creating a new one (eg. introducing Xyzs, killing off Synchros).

In the later packs, NO Synchros have been released. There have been very few Fusions and Rituals released recently (aside from Gem-Knights and Gishkis and even those ended abruptly). Older mechanics such as Spirit, Gemini have been completely forgotten. I for one was really interested in the Senet concept (but they only released like 4 support cards). Instead, Konami is pushing people to play Xyzs.

I bet you that if Yu-Gi-Oh! continues for another few years, Xyzs will be no longer be used and we will be using pink cards instead. Outdated mechanics are either too underpowered or restricted by the banlist. In order to keep up with the game, once again: More Money.


What is the the Senet concept?

Has anyone noticed how stupidly easy it has become to summon from your deck nowa days? Your deck has become your second hand.

The main problem is if they made new archetypes that were not more powerful than all archetypes before them then why would anyone rush out to buy these new cards? What they should do is stop making new archetypes decide an acceptable powerful then bring support for archetypes / decks types until all decks are at that power level Then people can play what they like not what's just been realised. After every tornament konami should look which decks didn't do so well then make support for that deck. But that won't happen were are always going to get new broken archetypes.

[Harleequin]

Broken since Horus.

[SInge]

Yep, this all clearly falls on the business model. Seems to be jump on to the next trend.

[SameSongNDance]

If you don't see why the comment was made then you need to just stop posting. period.

Right, I clearly understood the metaphor..that wasn't the issue although you may need to brush up on your own personal reading comprehension. I was merely pointing out that it was quite possibly one of the worst, most over the top metaphors I've seen on these forums. The second you compare something like killing a family to YGO, you auto lose. If you don't see why the comment I made was made, you need to just stop posting. period.

[DIYDeath]

Right, I clearly understood the metaphor..that wasn't the issue although you may need to brush up on your own personal reading comprehension. I was merely pointing out that it was quite possibly one of the worst, most over the top metaphors I've seen on these forums. The second you compare something like killing a family to YGO, you auto lose. If you don't see why the comment I made was made, you need to just stop posting. period.

You're complaining about someone fighting stupidity with melodrama?
Sorry but I don't have time for the sensitive, lifes too short to care about whos toes get stepped on when something as small as words step on toes.
In short I guess Im saying cry me a friggin' river, lol xD.

Back to topic!

In my opinion TCG priority is around 70% of the reason why yugioh is too broken. Take away that and the game will change for the better.

[SameSongNDance]

You're complaining about someone fighting stupidity with melodrama?
Sorry but I don't have time for the sensitive, lifes too short to care about whos toes get stepped on when something as small as words step on toes.
In short I guess Im saying cry me a friggin' river, lol xD.

Back to topic!

In my opinion TCG priority is around 70% of the reason why yugioh is too broken. Take away that and the game will change for the better.

Lol nowhere in any of my posts was I complaining :rolleyes:. mocking =/= complaining. Once again, learn how to read..or at least infer. I'm the farthest thing from sensitive. Here's what complaining looks like..

This game is trash. Konami keeps trying to one up itself with broken mechanics that are clearly unhealthy for the future of the game. I'm afraid the downward path Konami has chosen is irreversible and we will all soon see a game we once love disappear almost solely due to greed.

[Asterisk]

With all these posts, Reboot...maybe an interesting idea.
*rises fist to air* maybe the game is near to its end? I really hope it isnt. I really love it.

[DIYDeath]

Lol nowhere in any of my posts was I complaining :rolleyes:. mocking =/= complaining. Once again, learn how to read..or at least infer. I'm the farthest thing from sensitive. Here's what complaining looks like..This game is trash. Konami keeps trying to one up itself with broken mechanics that are clearly unhealthy for the future of the game. I'm afraid the downward path Konami has chosen is irreversible and we will all soon see a game we once love disappear almost solely due to greed.

I'm going to take a leap of faith and assume you're edumacated.
When mocking someone on the internet tone of voice is lost and conext is generally skewed. This is why people pull a captain obvious when mocking on the web, so it's understood that mockery just took place.

You're treating this like we're having this conversation in real life, but we aren't and thus there's different rules in relation to context.

Oh, fyi, my reading comprehension levels tested at a post secondary level when I was 12. Reading comprehension is probably one of the few things I excel at to an extreme.

[Ninja Dood]

I wouldn't mind the Synchro phase out if they would actually bring it back when Xyz is established, but what will most likely happen is Synchro support won't come back until it is useless.

[SCTyran]

Geez, one comment from me (and I just joined pojo) and there are arguments. Probably my fault for trying to be smart. Oh well...anybody here know about Scary Moth? It's a monster that limits Special Summons to once per turn that has 2200 def and is Lv 5.

[Ninja Dood]

Geez, one comment from me (and I just joined pojo) and there are arguments. Probably my fault for trying to be smart. Oh well...anybody here know about Scary Moth? It's a monster that limits Special Summons to once per turn that has 2200 def and is Lv 5.

Normal summon Ninja Grandmaster Hanzo, use effect to search for Ninjistu art of transformation. Set transformation and next turn transform into Scary Moth. It's cool. Ive done it.

[SCTyran]

And I actually only know about it from seeing it today when I was looking through my friends collection. There are so many cards that I don't know about.

[Kumora]

To be honest no. There are alot of answer cards out now. Maxx C, Veiler, and other cards. I think there are broken decks, but i dont consider them broken because they are good, but because every other deck has been nerfed to the point of non playable.

[bloodymonkey5]

They need to push a giant red "RESET" button.
Then, rotate out any and all broken cards/TCG Exclusives/ETC..
Then go back to regular sept/mar bans.
Get on par with Japan.

[Raz0r77]

You know, I can understand that people would get frustated with decks that can easily beat them. But whining won't solve anything. The banlist is like 30 cards that you can't use/restricted out of 6000+ cards released. There has to be a way to make a deck that would help against these competetive ones. It just hasn't been found yet.

Konami is blatantly disregarding balance, stop acting like we're whining and are not making any attempts to be creative/innovative. This game has evolved into a unhealthy pace/balance. If Konami was actually interested in balance, they would tone down the monster effects and how they are being spammed and abused. Monster effects have pretty much replaced the roles of a lot spells/traps. Hand traps for example act as threatning roar, but with a body that can be synched, tributed, etc. or a hand trap (Maxx c) equivalent of Royal Oppression that allows them to special summon but at the advantage for the opponent. Many of the swarming top tier decks run 25 monsters or more, it's clear why that is the case as many monsters have broken effects and replace themselves which spells/traps cannot.

[Black Adam]

To be honest no. There are alot of answer cards out now. Maxx C, Veiler, and other cards. I think there are broken decks, but i dont consider them broken because they are good, but because every other deck has been nerfed to the point of non playable.

2 hand traps vs the big 3. who wins?

obviously the big 3 does thats why were here :T

[ccayco]

Game-cleansing ftw! MEGABAN TIME, like when the first Forbidden List came out.

[Lamperouge]

I think there's no point of having a reset. It will stay like the same, with only a few decks competing on tier 1 and we'll lose all our favorite decks.

Instead, it's better if they modify the banlist instead and go for a WELL-balanced one.

[The_Dark_Monarch]

I read the OP, but decided to focus more on the title and conversation.

Yugioh has always been 'too broken'.

I remember Chaos Control, Magical Scientist/Makurya FTK, Cyber Stein, DMoC loop, Tele-DAD format...

Now we are in the Wind-Up format.

We are actually lucky we have 2 decks (Wind-Up & Dino Rabbit)...although it's of little consolation to those, like myself, longing for a diverse format...2 cookies are better than one.

Every so often, we get a glimpse of diversity, like Sept 2007 and the Monarch format...every so often we get a chance where a non-meta deck can top *not looking at Guadalajara ot Atlanta here*...I mean the current banlist puts an end to anything that can be a threat to Konami's precious XYZ Mechanic anyway...*looks @ TG's and Plants*

It's just that broken sets keep coming out, different rules between the OCG and the TCG, TCG 'exclusive' cards and now biased banlists...I mean, as if the 'Power Creep' wasn't enough...

However, it's been this way since IOC came out and I don't see it changing in the near future.

[ChaosSoldier -B-]

Konami never cared about game balance. They always care about profit. Now they are releasing hot sexy cards in order to secure their lead against card fight vanguard

[steikul]

Children card game they said.
It is just for fun they said.

actually, in my opinion, this game has gotten far too serious :s

I seldom see people that really 'enjoying' this game anymore

[Mikeyyy]

I still completely enjoy the game, even though the last couple of banlists have really spoilt the competitive aspect, the solution would be that konami make the staple cards more avaliable to players so those who don't have ridiculous amounts of money to piss away on a deck stand a chance to have the top cards.
But that will never happen, as neither will a banlist that completely benefits the players. However there is still plenty of fun to be had especially on DN just pick opponents who also run old/fun/ not top tier decks and you dont have to experience these "overly broken cards"

[SInge]

Children card game they said.
It is just for fun they said.

actually, in my opinion, this game has gotten far too serious :s

I seldom see people that really 'enjoying' this game anymore

The netdeckers have also become ravenous beasts. They will spew vile on anyone that talks about any cards that isn't "tournament".

[SirDragonite]

The netdeckers have also become ravenous beasts. They will spew vile on anyone that talks about any cards that isn't "tournament".

SInge, I actually liked your card of the day topics, but since Konami's banlists only like aggro...most of them seem awful. Otherwise much more decks would be viable.

[DIYDeath]

Agreed, the format loves aggro.
Mind you SIngle is right, netdeckers tend to switch the brain into idle and bash any tech choices, regardless if they're good, aggro or even viable.

[ruchir3]

Not really just need to ban hunter, and rabbit, limit hornet problem solved.

[goldbakura123]

Agreed, the format loves aggro.
Mind you SIngle is right, netdeckers tend to switch the brain into idle and bash any tech choices, regardless if they're good, aggro or even viable.

Pretty much this...these type of people have personalities of "no risk" in which they refuse to try anything outside of the box in ultimate fear of failure, they don't realize that this is just a children's card game and the prize support is so horrendous that you shouldn't mind losing every now and then...the "pros" in this games are not "intelligent" or "creative", they are netdecker rich kids who get the best cards and play the same old decklist as every other netdecker rich kid.

[The Cyber Demon Lo]

They need to take the banhammer and slam it down like it has never been done before...

Banning

TGU
Jurac Guaiba
Gateway of the Six
Kizan
Rescue Rabbit
Sangan
Maxx C
Hornet
Karakuri Shoguns
Zenmighty
Leviair
Hornet
BLS
JD
Chaos Sorceror
Veiler
TGHL
Typhoon
Infernity Archfiend
Formula Synchron
Storm
Dark Hole
Starlight Road
Torrential
The Solemns
Torrential
Necrovalley
Bestiari
Allure
Pot of Duality
Pot of Avarice
Skill Drain
Ryko
Grapha
Gates of DW
Scrap Beast
Mind Control
Bottomless
Prison
Necrovalley
Zenmaines
Stardust
Rekindling
Ultimate Offerings
Brionac
Cyber Dragon
Raiza
Gorz
Royal Decree
Dark Hole
Honest
Krystia
D.D. Crow

and at least 15 more cards.

And don't tell me cards like Storm can stay, you have plenty of alternatives, be it Moebius, Breaker, Delta-Crow, Trap Stun e.t.c. which do something, but in a less broken way.

[Mr Hyena]

Wat. Is there anything there that didnt get hit?

[Black Adam]

They need to take the banhammer and slam it down like it has never been done before...

Banning

TGU
Jurac Guaiba
Gateway of the Six
Kizan NO
Rescue Rabbit
Sangan
Maxx C NO
Hornet
Karakuri Shoguns NO
Zenmighty
Leviair
Hornet
BLS
JD NOT EVEN A PROBLEM SEMI IT IF ANYTHING
Chaos Sorceror
Veiler NO
TGHL
Typhoon NO
Infernity Archfiend NO
Formula Synchron NO
Storm
Dark Hole
Starlight Road NO
Torrential
The Solemns NO
Torrential
Necrovalley NO
Bestiari NO
Allure
Pot of Duality NO
Pot of Avarice NO
Skill Drain HELL NAW
Ryko NO
Grapha SEMI
Gates of DW
Scrap Beast NO
Mind Control
Bottomless NO
Prison NO
Necrovalley U LISTED THIS TWICE STILL NO
Zenmaines LIMIT
Stardust WTF NO
Rekindling SEMI OR LIMIT
Ultimate Offerings NO
Brionac NO
Cyber Dragon NO
Raiza NO
Gorz NO
Royal Decree NO
Dark Hole TWICE
Honest
Krystia
D.D. Crow NO

and at least 15 more cards.

And don't tell me cards like Storm can stay, you have plenty of alternatives, be it Moebius, Breaker, Delta-Crow, Trap Stun e.t.c. which do something, but in a less broken way.


UR LIST SUCKS SO HARD ITS CRIMINAL.

[thefusescape II]

UGH endless decay and such are not really a problem, IF THOR GETS DESTROYED THAT HANDY EFFECT THAT REVIVES HIM SUCH AS IF ENDLESS DECAY GOT ME I WILL REVIVE THOR NEGATE DECAY AND RUIN MY OPPONENT WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COME UP WITH FREAKING STRATEGY PEOPLE! OLD CARDS ARE THE KEY AND NOBODY EVEN REALIZES IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I COME UP WITH MY OWN STRATEGYS AND THEY WORK TO SUCH AN EXTENT I RARELY LOOSE! Gosh! Find your playing style and ace-card tendencys and I found that my ace monsters tended to be ones that were hard to destroy EX: Cyberdark Dragon Thor, Lord of the Aesir both those cards either self revive or use matierial to get destroyed in battle instead of themselves, basic strategy find your tendencys and you'll be amazed

[The Trickster]

While I share your sentiment that the banhammer needs to come down like the fist of God, there are a few cards on here that can stay.
Sangan - Tour Guide is the thing that is really abusing Sangan right now. Ban it, and Sangan can stay.
Hornet can go to 1
Guaiba I don't get. Make Rabbit go away, and Dinosaurs go back to being annoying.
Maxx C - Only used to stop Wind-Ups from looping.
Leviair - Only abused with Tour Guide and Rabit.
Hornet - It would be fine at 1.
JD and Sorcerer are also good at 1.
Veiler can go to 2. Hyper Librarian is fine at 1. Synchron is fine where it is.
Starlight Road becomes a much smaller problem when Heavy and Dark Hole go away.
Torrential was always fine at 1. Necrovalley to 2 MAYBE.
Bestiari and Allure are fine. Maybe put Bestiari at 2.
Duality to 1. Avarice is fine right now. Skill Drain is fine where it is.
Ryko and the Dark Worlds are also fine where they are. They are fairly easily stopped.
Bottomless and Stardust are fine. Ultimate Offering, Brio, and everything below that are fine where they are.

P.S. Typhoon to 1 or 2.
P.P.S. Add Monster Reborn to things that need the banhammer.

[The Cyber Demon Lo]

Wat. Is there anything there that didnt get hit?

Some people were claiming the game has gone wrong for a very long time. I made an according list. (I believe somebody even said the game has gone wrong since Horus (!), which was like an uber-slow format.)

Successful Troll is successful! :D

To be honest, if Hunter was banned OR Zenmaighty limited, the actual list would be very good in my opinion.

Alot of power cards are around, but they are accessible to anyone (Storm, Hole, Torrential, Solemn, blahblahblah). Tour Guide is a very good card, but in my opinion it can stay until September if the Wind-Up loop is gone.

After Scientist FTK, Yata Lock, Jowgen FTW, Cyber-Stein Madness, Demise OTK, Tele-Dad Era, Disco Man Loops, Explosion OTK, OHM OTK, Frog OTK, Mind Master OTK, we cannot complain about Laggia.

Dinos and Inzektors are Tier 1 decks, like Glads, Lightsworn, Rescue Sabers and Perfect Circle before. They will be gone in some time. It's just the Nature of the game.

I'll take an opposing Laggia and 4 S/T over Double Stardust, Double Dad, Crush Card, 2 Judgments and 4 cards in hand any day of the week.

I'm just pretty sad about the Wind-Up loop existing.

Problem is most people are too lazy to think out of the box and just copy some deck that won a YCS or whatever else. And the everybody does the same thing and people are wondering that the cards they need are skyrocketing.

[DIYDeath]

You know what card says no to the broken meta? Phohibition. I side 3 to screw the big 3.

[Ishtarr]

Wow, I've been wondering if anyone had the same feelings I had. I started playing when this game first came out (as I think many of us have) and it saddens me how much has changed. I expected the game to evolve but it's crazy what the cards are like nowadays. After the original series stopped, so did I.

I've always collected and played with character themed decks and I don't think I would changed that if I ever got back into it. I just hate how so many people bash the older cards and have no respect for people that actually enjoy the game and want to play with what they actually LIKE.

I feel super old talking all "back in the day" but hell, this game was good & I think it STILL would be good if they gave more support to older cards. I doubt that will happen since so many people turn their heads at them though. They need to bring back the original characters. Even if the voices are changed, I think that would draw back so many of the original players.

(*When I say "older" I mean OLDER. Like Magic Ruler, Metal Raiders, Pharaoh's Servant status hahah.)

[RayeEX]

have no respect for people that actually enjoy the game and want to play with what they actually LIKE.


^^
I am sorry i thought i was not going to reply to this but this guy pushed me over the line. You have no respect for the people that actually enjoy the game and play with what they actually like.

1. I don't disrespect no one on this game
2. How do you know that they dont like the decks they are using?
3. Support to older cards i could do but you need to face the fact. Yugioh is not just a game anymore it is also a Business. Yugioh on Pojo has nearly 600 views or more a day and has currently over 5000 cards made.
4. You dont know if people bash the older cards. Me for One i can make Dark Magician Turbo Deck beat anything i want on DN
5. Get over your damn insecurities and write them on paper so w dont have to listen to them

[The Trickster]

RayeEEx, that wasn't what he was saying at all. The point he was trying to make is that he hates the direction the game has gone. He hates the extent of the game becoming a business, and not just a hobby. Honestly, I have to agree. Big-Tourney players take their games WAY too seriously, and Konami is running the game into the ground.

In short, he DOES respect the players who are there for fun and just enjoy the game. He doesn't like the people who just sit there spamming Wind-Up and Dino Rabbit all day. Whatever deck you run, I'd love to see it win after losing the entire opening hand.

Also, there is a difference between liking a deck and liking a deck's ability to win.

[Ishtarr]

I think I missed the part where I wrote something rude enough for that kind of response. Guess I must have struck a nerve. Oh well.

Anyway, I HAVE seen other people talk down to other players who used certain cards. It seems as if, if you aren't buying the latest cards, your deck is absolutely no good and outdated. If you comprehended right, I was speaking in general terms and you took it to heart as if I was accusing YOU of wrong doing.

I have the utmost respect for people no matter what cards they choose. If they want to play with the latest cards, then so be it. I was only stating that there are SOME (general terms!) people who disrespect others for choosing to play with older cards.

[Pcgamer34]

This game is balanced not broken.

[Gaspar]

This game is balanced not broken.
If you want to get sigged, you have to fail much harder. Granted, you did fail pretty badly...

[Pcgamer34]

If you want to get sigged, you have to fail much harder. Granted, you did fail pretty badly...

Big 3 sucks they have failed to my side deck.
Deck using Chaos tour guide zombies.

[Gaspar]

There are so many factors, you know. Maybe you are just lucky, they are unlucky, they do not know how to play against a particular deck, you get the drill.

[CyberneticEmperor]

If you want to get sigged, you have to fail much harder. Granted, you did fail pretty badly...

I want to sig this.

[The Trickster]

This game is about as far from balanced as is possible (AAH! Shouldn't say that or Konami might hear me and bring back Yata and CED. . . )

[Jabbawocky]

I don't think the goal here is to ban the top decks to unplayability. I think the goal is to make all decks playable, but not overpowered.

For example: Inzektor Hornet to 1 just makes the deck so inconsistent and weak. I have played the deck with 1 hornet before just to test, and it just wasn't strong enough to stand up to anything (and D.D. Crow was my worst nightmare). I also have played the deck with 2 hornets, and although i was forced to play more armageddon knights, and mystic tomatos, the deck still performed decently. It seemed more balanced, and I wasn't as hurt by a crazy crow. It forced me to run more dead-draw armageddon knights and tomatos, so the deck was still playable, but no where near as great as with 3 hornets

sure you could also hit dragonfly to 2, which i think would be acceptable sometime down the line...

but i don't understand the idea of absolutely castrating tier 1 decks just because they are good... that will just make tier 2 decks, and newer decks seem stronger than ever

maybe slowly hit cards until we find a happy balance... like start off with tour guide to 2, and rescue rabbit to 2, ban hunter or semi-limit/limit carrier, etc, etc.

I'm just tired of not being able to play decks of previous formats just because they were good and got banned.

Also, there are too many people that are saying "insert deck here, here, and here are too powerful and I'm sad because my blue eyes deck isn't good anymore"... well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there will always be decks that are better than others.

By the way, this is just a hobby:
1. Of course it costs money. nearly all hobbies cost money(some more than others) e.g. painting model cars, stamp collecting, traveling, card games, sports, etc. they all cost money
2. Of course certain decks continue to do well. there will always be the best and worst decks. If you want to go play crystal beasts, fableds, morphtronics or whatever, no one is stopping you from doing so. Just don't be confused when you don't get top 16 at YCS Long Beach while playing ice barriers. (I'm not hating on any of the above decks. I enjoy playing all of them, but I'm not going to whine because they aren't the best. its just a game... its for fun)
3. Konami isn't listening. this is the worst part haha. Even if someone is justified in complaining, it won't change anything.

It's just a children's card game. It really hurts me on the inside when people cry over cardboard...... okay not really

[SInge]

The Life Points system is far beyond out of date. 8000 Life Points just doesn't cut it anymore. It was fine in the beginning, but the power creep hit the gas and it's on the other side of the world.

This is where to apply the ban list to rotate cards. You up the Life Point count, then ban all cards that would be to broken to take advantage of of this.

[Black Adam]

Big 3 sucks they have failed to my side deck.
Deck using Chaos tour guide zombies.

so which ycs did you top with it.

[Valafar123]

Yes, it has.

Bring back Goat Control!

[Asterisk]

They need to take the banhammer and slam it down like it has never been done before...

Banning

TGU
Jurac Guaiba
Gateway of the Six
Kizan
Rescue Rabbit
Sangan
Maxx C
Hornet
Karakuri Shoguns
Zenmighty
Leviair
Hornet
BLS
JD
Chaos Sorceror
Veiler
TGHL
Typhoon
Infernity Archfiend
Formula Synchron
Storm
Dark Hole
Starlight Road
Torrential
The Solemns
Torrential
Necrovalley
Bestiari
Allure
Pot of Duality
Pot of Avarice
Skill Drain
Ryko
Grapha
Gates of DW
Scrap Beast
Mind Control
Bottomless
Prison
Necrovalley
Zenmaines
Stardust
Rekindling
Ultimate Offerings
Brionac
Cyber Dragon
Raiza
Gorz
Royal Decree
Dark Hole
Honest
Krystia
D.D. Crow

and at least 15 more cards.

And don't tell me cards like Storm can stay, you have plenty of alternatives, be it Moebius, Breaker, Delta-Crow, Trap Stun e.t.c. which do something, but in a less broken way.

Lolwut.
Please, quit this game.
This banlist is so bad, it would kill Kazuki and Kevin if they read it.

[SInge]

Maybe the biggest flaw to Yugioh is the lack of some core structure basis.

Games like MTG, Duel Masters, World of Warcraft, and etc. have some core basic rules where certain themes, effects, and mechanics are limited to certain groups.

Look at how DARK and LIGHT get over saturated with card effects and mechanics which leaves other groups under powered. Also the retraining of monsters to work in another group.

[SirDragonite]

Yes, it has.

Bring back Goat Control!

I'd rather 4 turn duels than "200+ turn" ones.


I still think this game leads to insanity clauses now...but "200 turn" duels don't fix the game.

[Valafar123]

I'd rather 4 turn duels than "200+ turn" ones.


I still think this game leads to insanity clauses now...but "200 turn" duels don't fix the game.

I'd rather play for 3 hours knowing that I won because I was better, or I lost because I was worse than just have "herfadurr OTK" and raw luck winning games.

[SInge]

Yugioh was never designed to be a long game past turn 20 (Final Countdown). Other games tend to have cards that reward players for going this long with some Forbidden Card level effects. The only exception is Speed World duels.

There could easily be a set of cards that had minimum turn limits and made use of the turn count.

"Delayed PoG"
Normal Spell
This card and its effect can only be activated by at least your 5th turn: Pay 1000 Life Points; draw 2 cards. After activation, remove this card from play instead of sending it to the Graveyard. You can only activate 1 "Delayed PoG" per turn.

[Gaspar]

Yes, it has.

Bring back Goat Control!
I did not play much at that time, but you guys talk about it all the time...

[Valafar123]

I did not play much at that time, but you guys talk about it all the time...

It was the best format. The game was slow, methodical and well balanced. There was an answer to everything. You got rewarded for playing well and punished for playing badly. There was very little lucksacking.

[Long Phan]

Very interesting thread. I hate the way Konami push us to buy new cards...I stopped playing since TeleDAD era and after 1 year I started play YGO again. I was overwelmed with current changes of this game.
There are various cards which were reprinted in Common or Rare or SE or Structure Deck (MF, DAD, JD, Pot of Duality, Yubel, soon Brionac, REDMD, etc etc) Good for people who can't affort them earlier but unlucky for those who had paid 120€ for 3x PoD (just an example).

[Ishtarr]

I just started on the dueling network and some guy was nice enough to help out a bit. I showed him my deck list and basically said that everything I had was obsolete. Some of the new cards seem cool but kinda sucks that everything before 5D or Gx (I think that's the name of the newest series?) is not worth playing. A bit depressing being an old-fashioned player myself.

[darkcrab]

The simple answer is yes.

To put this into perspective, look at whats been revealed for GAOV and the next set (name escapes me). We have Geargia theme, spell book magicians, Hieratics and the desert themed earth, and OOPARTS.

Now they ARE cool themes, and in reality ill test them all on DN etc, as lord knows spellcasters alone could use an actual theme that doesnt revolve around magical library >.>...exodia.

But...take ANOTHER look at them, and realize that....well **** they aren't anywere near broken or sacky enough for this meta. And thats the big issue, in order to even HOPE to be relavent in this current broken format, you either have to be as broken or moreso broken than the current big three. As ive stated before, we've about hit the cusp of power creep before cards just straight enter into the crazy zone xD.

So thats two packs, and unless a broken tcg exclusive, or exclusives either make the new themes broken enough( VEry different from skilled enough) to compete with the current derp than they are useless. So that means konami will need to print some kind of chase tcg exclusive to rake in the dollars.

[Waratteirudakara]

One of the key problems of the game is destruction is pretty much the best effect aside from banishing, which is rarer. Destruction inherently simplies the game state by reducing the number of cards and therefore options. It's obvious that with a 6 card starting hand and normally only 1 new card a turn, there's not very much gain and way too much to lose. What it comes down to is which deck can "plus" more, and most other game mechanics are mostly ignored because being able to "minus" the opponent is the most efficient way of setting up the win condition. If your opponent has no options, they can't win.

[SInge]

Promos are also a problem. All cards should be accessible at some point instead of being one time only deals.

Promos should only be saved for cards with alternate arts.

[Black Adam]

yugioh is a game famous for broken game mechanics

[Hairo-Touchdown]

Well, what can I add? Actually, the game isnt that bad if you go down 1 or 2 tiers. I would dare to say, it recovers its shine and remains refreshing. New non-top archetypes and ideas are amazingly fun to use against each other, and older themes can compite against them using the new tech. Everyday I play against Gusto, Heros, Ninjas, some Infernitys,even an Archfiend and Gradius deck once etc, using cyberdarks (all on DN, if you know how to search). The game there feels balanced and growing...

Sadly, none (not even Konami) would care because, well, all of that is tier 2-3 for a reason. Konami is making every format a few decks that would dominate the format and be sold for higher prices, and this decks are getting more and more crazy with every format (a ******* Solemn Judgment on legs) and with this last ban list, they were just cynical on the "you want to play? buy exactly what we say if you dont want to just lose on turn 1". There were ways to make the themes we have now whitout breaking them (wrote down 2 Evolsaur instead of 2 Dinos on Laggia an Dolkka, write "Except Tour guide" on the *****´s effect, dont even make Hunter and wind up would be a very good not-so-derp deck) but they completely ignored this options.

I still have hope for the game neverthless, and consider Xyz summon an improvment. But Konami needs to change its bussines approach of "Just a few powerfull and expensive decks would be played". Return of the duelist is giving me some hope since it would be a little closer to september, and doesnt have any particularly broken archetype, even thought it introduces 4 new each with different and interesting play mecanics.

Also, Epic Dawn. If supported properly, I could change to sealed play.

[y2k1]

There has always been formats with a top deck dominating so this format is nothing new. The reason people are so unhappy is because the top decks simply are not fun.

Dino Rabbit has the same 'strategy' time and time again

Wind Ups are depressing because you can effectively lose on the first turn thanks to Hunter

Inzektors are extremely annoying to play against because your entire field can be obliterated on the first turn and to add insult to injury, they get advantage

[SInge]

Sounds like the game needs its own version of Balance.

A card that brings down any player to the same level as the one who used it.

If they wiped out your field and hand, then this card would force their hand and field to be wiped out also.

[chaotic angel]

You know something's horribly wrong when every set has been totally changing the meta, and to the point where nothing but Zexal-era decks are even remotely competitively viable. I hate to say it, but Yugioh really does need a Reboot. Hell, we already have a block rotation right now, in the sense that all of the decks you once loved are unplayable garbage now.

I completely agree with this. wth is Konami doing?

[thefusescape II]

Give it time, we actually do need CED un-banned and no re prints so no noobs will be running around with em., then the Zexal BS meta will be nothing, we already have the Egyption Gods, Monarchs, Polar Gods etc. what more could i ask for! Slifer the Sky Dragon will destroy the meta just sayin. (Thor does enough already for me so whatevs)

[thelaser]

They need to take the banhammer and slam it down like it has never been done before...



Here is my list:

Banned:
Tour Guide
Mind Control
Pot of Avarice
Wind-Up Hunter
Monster Reborn
Gateway of the Six
Sangan
Leviair
One for One
Plaguespreader Zombie


Limited:
Hornet

[Gaspar]

No Hunter but 3 Zenmaity? No One for One with no Spore? No Tour Guide AND no Leviair?
Errrrrrr...

[thelaser]

No Tour Guide AND no Leviair?
Errrrrrr...
Let's hit the cards that make Rabbits and Wind-ups broken.

[Gaspar]

Hitting Tour Guide is enough to stop Rabbits from spamming Leviair every single turn.
The problem with Wind-Ups is the stupid search-n'-summon card, not the card that needs fodder to discard.

[HochDeutsch]

In fact, I've started playing Magic now because it's not as bad or broken. Yeah, you have set rotation, but you don't HAVE to play that. There's plenty of other playable formats. Casually playing, I have the same amount of fun that I used to with Yugioh. It's more balanced that way, and I believe this game is slowly decaying because of these major flaws.
As a longtime player of both games, I heartily disagree. Magic still, I would argue, has more issues with broken cards than Yu-Gi-Oh! ever has. Cards that discard your opponent's hand (the result of the here criticized Wind-Up loop) are a dime-a-dozen, and there is lots of targeted destruction of cards; Solemn Judgment but from your hand during either player's turn and costing just the tapping of 2 blue mana instead of "half your Life Points". In my experience, playing with some fairly sharky players, Magic in all formats except perhaps the set rotation ones is a horrible broken mess, even the so-called "fun" formats like EDH.


That being said, I hate set rotation and so when I play Magic I play the non-set rotation formats. The fact that they're bad is what always led me to Yu-Gi-Oh!...

But I agree with the OP. As of late, Yu-Gi-Oh! is so bad and is in dire need of a Reboot. I know it won't happen. Also, as a longtime player and collector, what I really wish they would do is the following:

Go through an extensive round of banning and limiting. And I mean extensive... way more serious than what thelaster just posted. I mean at least 50 cards need to be banned or limited that are currently not.

After that Konami needs to print some new cards. A balanced replacement for Heavy Storm, maybe a Bottomless Trap Hole variant that only hits Special Summons (to mitigate their intrinsic superiority slightly), some support for older themes, some cards that have good effects which activate only if you have no cards in your Extra Deck, etc.

It's by no means difficult, and would not require a full-on Reboot.... but still it's never gonna happen....

As far as I can tell, this game is a lost cause. Not because it has to be... but because Konami isn't going to do what's right for it.

[SInge]

Magic has the set rotation which good, since otherwise the entire format would be flooded with duplicate cards with minor tweaks.

[Momiji]

Well, what can I add? Actually, the game isnt that bad if you go down 1 or 2 tiers. I would dare to say, it recovers its shine and remains refreshing. New non-top archetypes and ideas are amazingly fun to use against each other, and older themes can compite against them using the new tech. Everyday I play against Gusto, Heros, Ninjas, some Infernitys,even an Archfiend and Gradius deck once etc, using cyberdarks (all on DN, if you know how to search). The game there feels balanced and growing...

Sadly, none (not even Konami) would care because, well, all of that is tier 2-3 for a reason. Konami is making every format a few decks that would dominate the format and be sold for higher prices, and this decks are getting more and more crazy with every format (a ******* Solemn Judgment on legs) and with this last ban list, they were just cynical on the "you want to play? buy exactly what we say if you dont want to just lose on turn 1". There were ways to make the themes we have now whitout breaking them (wrote down 2 Evolsaur instead of 2 Dinos on Laggia an Dolkka, write "Except Tour guide" on the *****´s effect, dont even make Hunter and wind up would be a very good not-so-derp deck) but they completely ignored this options.

I still have hope for the game neverthless, and consider Xyz summon an improvment. But Konami needs to change its bussines approach of "Just a few powerfull and expensive decks would be played". Return of the duelist is giving me some hope since it would be a little closer to september, and doesnt have any particularly broken archetype, even thought it introduces 4 new each with different and interesting play mecanics.

Also, Epic Dawn. If supported properly, I could change to sealed play.

This a thousand times this. Just when you think a new set is pretty balanced you see the TCg exclusives and you can't help but realize that Knomai doesn't care about anything but money.

[jeremylin]

I've been looking at the inzektor cards and... wtf

Centipede special summons from the grave faster than Zombies can ever hope to

...

Zombies

Shouldn't Zombies be able to grave summon more than some forever alones in insect costumes?!
And the pop-pitch effect is drivin me nuts
The cards just don't make sense anymore

[CuppaSteve]

I'm thinking that 00:58 through 01:53 of this video (http://youtu.be/vZSS_VJJC1Y?t=58s) basically sums up the general consensus expressed in this thread, so even if you don't follow YGOTAS, it's still pretty accurate.

Here's my input: You want to win? Become independently wealthy. You want to have fun? Find friends who also don't care about winning. You can't have both anymore, which is a shame. It only shows how easily greed can spread throughout one singular hobby. People become power-hungry because they have the money to buy decks that win tournaments, while the people who play to have fun are left in the dust with the sour taste of defeat in their wake. Meanwhile Konami creates banlists that just happen to skim over the broken cards that rake them in $40+ dollars a single (trishula being an exception, although it's position as king of the hill was being lost with the format change anyways), and creates sub-par archetypes just to keep the masses entertained.

I have enough fun with my friends dueling our casual "budget" decks to still enjoy the game, but the morality behind the game is just getting out-of-hand.

[jeremylin]

Hieratic Dragons
Consistent OTK/FTK, or guranteed 2nd turn KO

This is by far the most broken deck konami has s**** themselves with
I predict that all the cards will be superrares+
and that the format will last till march2013

guys, its time to whip out those mtg decks
and burn all your yugioh cards come may

[Chaos Li]

Hieratic Dragons
Consistent OTK/FTK, or guranteed 2nd turn KO

This is by far the most broken deck konami has s**** themselves with
I predict that all the cards will be superrares+
and that the format will last till march2013

there goes my chances of making a budget Hieratic Deck xDU I have been testing Chaos Dragons and i was motivated to test Hieratics but if they'll be this broken their prices will skyrocket XP

[Black Adam]

Hieratic Dragons
Consistent OTK/FTK, or guranteed 2nd turn KO

This is by far the most broken deck konami has s**** themselves with
I predict that all the cards will be superrares+
and that the format will last till march2013

guys, its time to whip out those mtg decks
and burn all your yugioh cards come may

They will suck till gustaph comes to the tcg

[Ginsu]

I see a lot of people posting lists banning like 20 cards. While I agree most of these lists suck, I would honestly be pretty happy if Konami just banned like 20 cards. That'd be a lot better than what we have now...

[Gaspar]

Depends on the cards that are banned.

[Ginsu]

Depends on the cards that are banned.

well obviously, but the point is that something drastic has to happen.
Let's have another Goat Control-type format. That'd be nice. :D

[Gaspar]

I want one, just to see if it is as good as everyone says. Of course, it cannot be worse than the current format...

[CrazyCat]

I want one, just to see if it is as good as everyone says. Of course, it cannot be worse than the current format...
The current format is a direct spawn of Konami's stupidity. When they design new cards, they should be testing them in competitive play and having people think up possible combos with them, so they can word them and give them effects that would prevent abuse. If they do this already, then someone needs to be fired.

Of the Top 3 decks, 2 of them are sheer archetype. Wind-ups have an in-group, extremely consistent hand loop, which was what would obviously happen once they gave the archetype a discard monster and MULTIPLE swarming effects.

Whats worse is Inzektors and their 3-card win condition. Wind-ups, even IF they were excusable in some form, have nothing on the terrible design of these. Wind-ups take a number of cards, spread out through a number of different sets. Inzektors take just 3 cards, released at once, to create stupid and massive advantage. They're the easiest to side against and beat of the top 3, yes, but they only have 3 cards. Wait until next set.

Dino Rabbit is just a case of a bunch of cards being smashed together, which is what the top deck of a format should be. I would MUCH rather have a bunch of unrelated cards thrown together in a genius way be the best deck of the format than some crappy designs MADE to work together by Konami.

Tele-DAD and Plants were also decks like this; moshes of different cards that were in no way made with each other in mind. At least this way, its the ingenuity of the deck creator that made it top, not Konami and its ****ty card design.

[Gaspar]

...Dark Armed Dragon is pretty bad card design though.

[CrazyCat]

...Dark Armed Dragon is pretty bad card design though.
I suppose at 3 it would. You could easily you one to set up the next. At 1 I feel its the perfect inconsistent boss monster. No one should ever have more than 1 dad anyway.

[Salamander]

Shame Konami. Shame...

[Valafar123]

Anyone remember when Normal Summons were normal and Special Summon were special?

[Salamander]

Anyone remember when Normal Summons were normal and Special Summon were special?

... and when fusions were extinct.

[Valafar123]

... and when fusions were extinct.

Real fusions are extinct.

TER was a real fusion. Idol + Relinquished (though everybody used Metamorphosis to cheat :p)

The Shining is not a real fusion. Generic monster 1 + generic monster 2.

[No One Special]

Whats worse is Inzektors and their 3-card win condition. Wind-ups, even IF they were excusable in some form, have nothing on the terrible design of these.

Normal Summon Wind-Up Magician. Special Summon Wind-Up Shark.

Game 2?

[Avarrs]

Normal Summon Wind-Up Magician. Special Summon Wind-Up Shark.

Game 2?

Set three backrow and spy, Necrovalley Royal Tribute, game two???

[Zatoichi]

Konami could Reboot yugioh with a brand new format of nothing but new, more balanced cards. They would find ways to make a fortune from it, as they ussually do. Hell, alot of yugioh sales have nothing to do whats printed on the card, its just kids and collectors buying up packs that say YUGIOH on it at the market.

[No One Special]

Set three backrow and spy, Necrovalley Royal Tribute, game two???

Draw 5 pieces of Exodia, game 2?

Wind-Ups are a 2-card win condition.

[Gaspar]

Anyone remember when Normal Summons were normal and Special Summon were special?
Unfortunately for my wishes to stay in the game at least casually, I do.

[ForteZanzo]

Real fusions are extinct.

TER was a real fusion. Idol + Relinquished (though everybody used Metamorphosis to cheat :p)

The Shining is not a real fusion. Generic monster 1 + generic monster 2.

Except why should fusing be so specific? Plus, idk about the other HEROs, but the ELEMENTAL HEROs really ought to have been that way from the get go: E-HERO + Attribute = Fusion. I'd have even settled for One Attribute E-HERO (not name-specific) + Other Atrribute E-HERO (also not) = Fusion. I mean jeez, Flame Wingman looks nothing like Burst or Avian.

Having some fusions be a specific combination of monsters is cool and w/e, but fusing themes really ought to be flexible enough to be consistent. Thanks to a limited Extra Deck, you almost can't even run old E-HEROs without being overly focused, and with mediocre atk normals to boot! :/

Additional Comment:

The current format is a direct spawn of Konami's stupidity. When they design new cards, they should be testing them in competitive play and having people think up possible combos with them, so they can word them and give them effects that would prevent abuse. If they do this already, then someone needs to be fired.

This I like, coming from the FGC; it's commonplace for companies like Capcom and Namco to seek out top players of games they wish to go further with. For instance, with SSF2T: HDR, Daigo Umehara (google it) was called in for testing sessions during the game's production. They sought his opinions on various characters, such as Ryu and Balrog (Boxer), and even made some of the suggested changes. People don't really complain about either of those characters in HDR, so I'd call that a success.

So, I'd say hit up like Billy Brake or whoever else has gotten multitops and such, let them have a peek at some of these cards and check opinions and/or advice on changes.

Additional Comment:

I want one, just to see if it is as good as everyone says. Of course, it cannot be worse than the current format...

Goat Control's negative reception (I mean, I liked it, but I also liked it when StallBurn could top in a WC) was less about busted effects or insurmountable situatons (not to say there wasn't bustedness) and more about game1s going to time. This isn't so bad when you're playing with buds, but in tourneys it basically meant your side deck was less about countering the opponent and more about winning the end-of-round game. That, personally, was my only real nitpick with the format. Emergency Provisions and PotOMs all day.

Also, did anyone here have to suffer through the 'change of lp' rules back in the day (E-Provisions would win you the EoR if it was the Last Turn or SD.), or does that shiz still apply?

[HochDeutsch]

I see a lot of people posting lists banning like 20 cards. While I agree most of these lists suck, I would honestly be pretty happy if Konami just banned like 20 cards. That'd be a lot better than what we have now...
Yeah, this is what I think we need. Not a Reboot of the game from scratch, but a Reboot of the list.

They basically should do a complete and utter overhaul.

[Shokwav]

Lol, are you talking about endless decay?

[GaBeRock]

Yugioh is broken, we all understand this. What we need is to have a cohesive enough meta so we can actually have anti meta-anti meta is what balances the game. As long as there is an anti meta deck that can counter the main decks, people will play other decks, formin a stable relationship- too much anti-meta, not enough meta and antimeta flols and an original deck tops. Too much meta, not a lot of anti meta and the anti meta will breeze right through. If the anti meta gets too good thenit becomes meta and people will side against it, creating more anti-meta as a balancing factor, but as it is, the meta is unchallanged because of how diverse meta decks are in relation to each other (although not neccessarily in relationahips to other decks.) Phew. Sombody definently needs to turn than rant into an article.

[MikeApollo]

I saw this in another forum, and I thought it was a good read and it made a lot of sense. Tell me what you think about it.

original source (http://www.yugiohcardguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29594)

MysticJhn said
Now, this game has always been about getting to your best monsters before the other guy.
That's pretty basic strategy, get out your main monster with the good effect, and crush the opponent.
First one to the finish line wins the duel.
And as this game progressed, this started being done faster and faster.
Soon, if you didn't swarm first or second turn, you lost.
But that's not good enough anymore.
Now you not only have to swarm, but swarm with boss monsters.

I sat on DN before in a duel, and yes they have cards on there not yet released and won't be for a while,
but it was preposterous.
Summon.
Special Summon.
Xyz Summon.
Special Summon.
Special Summon.
Another Xyz.
Special Summon.
etc.
...

I sat there bewildered at what I can only assume was about 15 straight summons before they crushed my single card field.
Massive crazy effects going on back and forth, playing at a speed at which I gave up trying to read the effects and just assumed they weren't cheating.
Now I know my Deck wasn't even close to competition level, but this was insane.
Every monster can swarm the field by itself, then destroy something, then have a decent attack.

Makes me think that perhaps this game has hit a point of no return with the speed and power of these cards far exceeding anything previously.

The other day, as I was in control of the field ATK wise, they played 1 monster and knocked me down.
A simple Level 5 monster, the only monster they controlled, had 4000 ATK.
Why?
Because it's effect allowed it to have ATK equal to half my LP at the time of it's Summon, which was the full 8000.
Why is a Level 5 monster powerful enough to run over my Level 8 Ancient Gear Gadjiltron Dragon with plenty of ATK to spare?
When did this game get so crazy unbalanced that a Level 5 monster can be that strong?

I think the problem lies with Konami.
In order to force us to buy new cards, they keep releasing cards that are more powerful than their predecessors in effect to the point where older cards are obsolete.
They did that in GX, then did it again in 5Ds, and now are doing it again in this ZeXal era.
The problem with this is, every time they feel compelled to one-up themselves, the card effects become exponentially more powerful than ever before.

Look at your oldest effect monsters.
Usually they have 1 simple effect, that does 1 or 2 simple things, and they tend to pay for it by having a lower ATK/DEF.
Now compare that to a monster of the same level that's coming out in the next couple sets.
There is a drastic difference.

Then there's the Extra Deck.
It used to be home to your biggest, baddest boss monsters.
The ones your whole Deck was geared to getting out that could win the game for you.
Now look at it.
It's a cheap toolbox of overpowered monsters.
You played a single Tour Guide and bust out a beatstick with an awesome effect that you got to SS without even drawing it.

I'm starting to feel like Yu-Gi-Oh has gotten to a point where it's so self broken, it's hit the point where it needs to implode like a sun.
Effects are too strong, individual monsters have too many of them, and being an effect monster has no downside like a low ATK.
Every single card is a brutal play, then your opponent's turn comes, they wipe out your whole field, and it's their turn to SS 40,000 times.

This game perhaps needs a Yu-Gi-Oh TCG 2, start fresh, start balanced, and stop releasing cards that are infitely one-upmanship of last season's.



I couldn't have said it better my self as a long time player (since the card game it self started) first and formost (Other then a Yugioh Judge now) i see this game becoming more and more busted stupid and Ignorant as the years have passed AND instead of using the ban list for what it was meant for Konami has been using it to push their profits higher and higher while player’s get fed up with the abuse and bull and leave and go play games like MTG or now Card fight instead of using the ban list to remove over sacky cards this game isn’t about holding on to the cards you need to pull a win any more it’s about who can make there decks more auto play and stupid

[A bad Rose]

Considering the very little bit that I've read, why doesn't someone create this "Perfectly balanced" banlist and use to set the model for what konami should o for the game. You can even set this banlist up to support a boycott on future sets with broken cards maybe?

[MikeApollo]

Considering the very little bit that I've read, why doesn't someone create this "Perfectly balanced" banlist and use to set the model for what konami should o for the game. You can even set this banlist up to support a boycott on future sets with broken cards maybe?

I've posted such a list that would take the Derp out of the game but saddly not many ppl endorsed it because it would nerf there decks

[A bad Rose]

I've posted such a list that would take the Derp out of the game but saddly not many ppl endorsed it because it would nerf there decks
hmmm is it posted here? try modifying the list a bit or something and get support! :)

[MikeApollo]

hmmm is it posted here? try modifying the list a bit or something and get support! :)

no they dont like it because it rips the herpa derp outa the meta right now for a long time to come not because its a bad list

[markyguila]

Would it be fair to say that every CCG has an element of brokenness that the playerbase dislikes. I think its more of the lines of how players prefer to win by their own guidelines rather than what is given to them. Then they would whine about how they cant win with the restrictions they self-imposed on themselves

Its like hunting with a bow when you could hunt with a rifle. Sure it may be a lot cooler to hunt with a bow but its better to use the gun that is more efficient

[jtm94]

I think the best way to go about it is to make it so decks do not have a vast dominance.
I think Spore should be back, Glow-Up Bulb back, trish back, they supported many decks, plants specifically, but could be splashed into many decks with some trial and error, unlike 3 TGU and Sangan which can be thrown into anything and make it able to win locals.

Now we have Heroes and Darkworld, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, Rabbits. The game is still able to be saved right now.

I think the answer is not to nerf(ban) good decks as people often whine about, but to offer alternatives. For example, Darkworld beats you game 1, game 2 you side in Shadow-imprisonings, you win, game 3 they have 3 mst and win. THAT to me is what a match should be. The game should be slightly dictated by the side deck, not the main deck.

Release anti rabbit cards, anti wind-up, reprint Maxx C, make some powerful cards for forgotten archetypes, aliens, harpies, give GK a boost maybe?!?

Do you see where I'm going with this? Instead of punishing every deck that performs well, it may be ok to limit a card or two, but banning should be left to severely broken cards. If an equilibrium can be maintained among most decks, happiness will ensue.

What not to do: Release new archetype, said archetype has synergy, release more for new archetype and simultaneously hinder the power of everything powerful until now.

I would buy more cards if I had a chance to win against people who no life and fork out $100's for these decks. No one even enjoys facing wind-ups or inzektors. You just sit and wait and watch for 10 minutes while they piece a combo together that Konami designed to happen. It isn't even being creative!

My friends do not and will not ever buy an inzektor/wind-up deck. If they do I quit because I can't take that. On a smaller scale when I first got into yugioh, my friend had an old deck that came in 2nd place at regionals and we played traditional format and it was very similar. My close friends enjoyed playing with our balanced cards and everyone having a chance to win, then he came over and dominated us with his better/expensive cards like raigeki, feather duster, Fiber Jar, yata, Jinzo and black luster soldier. How could we compete? Everyone quit but me and I had to drop $40+ to make a legit deck that could beat him, then he made a dark world deck to beat that. It ends up being a race to see who is willing to spend the most money first in order to win. I still enjoy the game, tier 1 decks do not affect me, and I will continue to play casually, maybe enter a locals for kicks.

[jeremylin]

Some issues that I'm noticing as well

Since when did every other monster have the ability to "special summon x from deck"
I mean, HELLO! This is a complete + for nothing.
What the hell happened to "add to hand" or "special summon from hand"
or "special summon from the graveyard"???

Konami isn't even TRYING anymore

BOOM ss from deck b***** how you like Dat!
BUY SOME CARD$$$

[Psyduckfan]

I don´t like how the game has changed..
The game has turned from a game with tons of possibilities to a"race" game (Race being Inzektors, wind-ups, Archfiends, etc), IMO if certain cards that help generic decks were unbanned the meta would benefit from it (IMO Magical Scientist, Pot of Greed and... Why not, Raigeki?)

Haven´t really played that much but.. As it is right now its a swarm fest.. And now there are effects that let you SUMMON a monster FROM YOUR DECK?!
Seriously Wtf?!

Now, XYZ are just a less complicated form of Synchro (No tuner and the mayority of times XYZ are just 2 monsters of the same level, almost any deck will run two copies of a monster..) so XYZ are just a way for the swarm to be turned into one monster..

I don´t know what will happen but I think the game is soon gonna explode.

[Endyimon]

im known for think outside the box. what about coming this problem from a different direction? lets no ban a bunch of stuff, lets UNBAN a bunch of stuff. bring back Graceful Charity to one. DW better. bring back plant engine many syncrho decks return. keep the current meta where it is and XZY stay. bring back CED. sure if this is done, the levels of derp would rise to the hights of Olympus choking zues himself on the shlong of derp-o-rama. BUT. there would be SO much derp, people would be able to choose and create their own derp. in fact, decks wont even be decks. they will be called "derps" at least this way, you could original derps and not the same derps everyone else is using....

[Psyduckfan]

Does any of you guys think Konami will make reprints of cards but with different names (a la pokemon) i.e. making a new "Pot of Greed" virtualy the same effect but with other card name, in order to sell more of the new card.
In fact.. Is there any card with the same effect in the entire game? (I don´t think so, right?)

[Valafar123]

Does any of you guys think Konami will make reprints of cards but with different names (a la pokemon) i.e. making a new "Pot of Greed" virtualy the same effect but with other card name, in order to sell more of the new card.
In fact.. Is there any card with the same effect in the entire game? (I don´t think so, right?)

It's never happened to my knowledge.

The closest I can think of are Old Vindictive Magician and Man-Eater Bug, but they have slightly different effects.

[HochDeutsch]

It's never happened to my knowledge.

The closest I can think of are Old Vindictive Magician and Man-Eater Bug, but they have slightly different effects.
They have the same Level, ATK, and DEF. However, Man-Eater Bug must destroy a monster on the field, meaning if he flips while he's the only monster out there, he nukes himself, whereas Old Vindictive Magician does not behave that way.

However, most importantly, they have a different Type and Attribute, and that is a crucial distinction. Man-Eater Bug bluffs for Magical Merchant in an Insect Solidarity deck, and Old Vindictive comes out in Apprentice Magician builds, for example.

As far as I know, Yu-Gi-Oh! has no functional reprints, or cards which are exactly identical except in name. Giant Red Seasnake and 7 Colored Fish come really close, but that's about it...

[Valafar123]

They have the same Level, ATK, and DEF. However, Man-Eater Bug must destroy a monster on the field, meaning if he flips while he's the only monster out there, he nukes himself, whereas Old Vindictive Magician does not behave that way.

However, most importantly, they have a different Type and Attribute, and that is a crucial distinction. Man-Eater Bug bluffs for Magical Merchant in an Insect Solidarity deck, and Old Vindictive comes out in Apprentice Magician builds, for example.

As far as I know, Yu-Gi-Oh! has no functional reprints, or cards which are exactly identical except in name. Giant Red Seasnake and 7 Colored Fish come really close, but that's about it...

I did say they had slightly different effects.

[Cyber Jaragon]

Promos are also a problem. All cards should be accessible at some point instead of being one time only deals.

Promos should only be saved for cards with alternate arts.

Best thing I've read all thread.

Let's hit the cards that make Rabbits and Wind-ups broken.

I think the problem with your list is that you're more interested in killing off cards that you think are problematic to you rather than cards that are problematic to the game.

Also, limiting Hornet doesn't make Inzektors no longer a problem. The real trouble maker in an Inzektor deck is Dragonfly as he's the one that starts off a chain of shenanigans.

[Harpie_Commander]

I think the best way to go about it is to make it so decks do not have a vast dominance.
I think Spore should be back, Glow-Up Bulb back, trish back, they supported many decks, plants specifically, but could be splashed into many decks with some trial and error, unlike 3 TGU and Sangan which can be thrown into anything and make it able to win locals.

Now we have Heroes and Darkworld, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, Rabbits. The game is still able to be saved right now.

I think the answer is not to nerf(ban) good decks as people often whine about, but to offer alternatives. For example, Darkworld beats you game 1, game 2 you side in Shadow-imprisonings, you win, game 3 they have 3 mst and win. THAT to me is what a match should be. The game should be slightly dictated by the side deck, not the main deck.

Release anti rabbit cards, anti wind-up, reprint Maxx C, make some powerful cards for forgotten archetypes, aliens, harpies, give GK a boost maybe?!?

Do you see where I'm going with this? Instead of punishing every deck that performs well, it may be ok to limit a card or two, but banning should be left to severely broken cards. If an equilibrium can be maintained among most decks, happiness will ensue.

What not to do: Release new archetype, said archetype has synergy, release more for new archetype and simultaneously hinder the power of everything powerful until now.

I would buy more cards if I had a chance to win against people who no life and fork out $100's for these decks. No one even enjoys facing wind-ups or inzektors. You just sit and wait and watch for 10 minutes while they piece a combo together that Konami designed to happen. It isn't even being creative!

My friends do not and will not ever buy an inzektor/wind-up deck. If they do I quit because I can't take that. On a smaller scale when I first got into yugioh, my friend had an old deck that came in 2nd place at regionals and we played traditional format and it was very similar. My close friends enjoyed playing with our balanced cards and everyone having a chance to win, then he came over and dominated us with his better/expensive cards like raigeki, feather duster, Fiber Jar, yata, Jinzo and black luster soldier. How could we compete? Everyone quit but me and I had to drop $40+ to make a legit deck that could beat him, then he made a dark world deck to beat that. It ends up being a race to see who is willing to spend the most money first in order to win. I still enjoy the game, tier 1 decks do not affect me, and I will continue to play casually, maybe enter a locals for kicks.


Co-sign a competent post with a Harpie support shout out. and although I read someone say people would whine about nerfing top decks. That is a good solution. I don't feel that ban list pops up enough, if it did and Konami jumped on brokenness faster the game would be better balanced. My personal opinion is for Konami to do with yugioh what Capcom did with MVC3. In MVC2 you have like 6/50 characters that are just dangerous Senty/Magneto/Storm/Psylocke(assist), etc. In MVC3 almost every character is powerful and viable. Making the game more skill based. Buff everything and make every archetype/build viable rather then 4/5 decks. Dino Rabbit/Inzectors/and the 2/3 others. It'd draw a lot more players. And fans like me who quit because toons don't get ish might return and play competitively. My new appreciation for Ninja/Harpie's a deck I could've made 3 years ago is the only reason I play. I found a way to make my Harpie's win.

[Camero]

In terms of "re-made" cards, aside from Normal Monsters there isn't anything that's EXACTLY the same, though there are close ones:

Eternal Rest + Really Eternal Rest

Jar of Greed + Legacy of Yata-Garasu(admittedly that's really more of an "upgrade" that just didn't take than a reprint)

[ccayco]

REBOOT! was an awesome show.

but yeah, its time to reset the game. But then again, we remember how many players left the first time we did a game restart ("oh noo, my Chaos-Yata deck is almost totally Forbidden!? I quit!") <<< I dont think konami will surender their loyal, heavy paying, playerbase so easily.

[WerewolfMaster13]

The only thing i can think of that MIGHT, i repeat a billion times, MIGHT, help, is if people actually ask Konami to... i don't know, stop making the uber powerful cards, or at least making them with a restriction we can deal with.
They released the Egyptian God Cards as Effect Monsters, and i like the bonuses, plus the Restrictions. If Obelisk get's SS, it goes to the graveyard at the end of the turn. it uses it's obliterate effect, it can't attack. it takes three sacrifices to normal summon it and it can't be set. It can't be targeted, but it can fall to TT and Dark Hole.
I think if people actually asked Konami to think about the effects, and give them a restriction like in the old cards, maybe the game would be more fun. I seriously don't like a game where if you have enough money you can win.
Anyway, i think also if Konami starts hitting those "core" cards that make decks too broken in the first place (one judgement dragon, is lightsworns are still playable) would make it more fair and less "I play this boss card that destroys the field and makes your mother cry at your lameness". But that's just me...

[ForteZanzo]

The only thing i can think of that MIGHT, i repeat a billion times, MIGHT, help, is if people actually ask Konami to... i don't know, stop making the uber powerful cards, or at least making them with a restriction we can deal with.
They released the Egyptian God Cards as Effect Monsters, and i like the bonuses, plus the Restrictions. If Obelisk get's SS, it goes to the graveyard at the end of the turn. it uses it's obliterate effect, it can't attack. it takes three sacrifices to normal summon it and it can't be set. It can't be targeted, but it can fall to TT and Dark Hole.
I think if people actually asked Konami to think about the effects, and give them a restriction like in the old cards, maybe the game would be more fun. I seriously don't like a game where if you have enough money you can win.
Anyway, i think also if Konami starts hitting those "core" cards that make decks too broken in the first place (one judgement dragon, is lightsworns are still playable) would make it more fair and less "I play this boss card that destroys the field and makes your mother cry at your lameness". But that's just me...

Actually, if Obelisk is NS'd, you can't TT it.

Also, IMO Obelisk is gimp. Giving up five monsters ought to give a 4000 to the face.

Ra is gimped beyond any feasible playability, how nice. :/

Slifer seems alright. Eh.

And LS is still doing squat even with Lumina at 2 and JD at 3. That ought to tell something about its usefulness in the deck.

[WerewolfMaster13]

Actually, if Obelisk is NS'd, you can't TT it.

Also, IMO Obelisk is gimp. Giving up five monsters ought to give a 4000 to the face.

Ra is gimped beyond any feasible playability, how nice. :/

Slifer seems alright. Eh.

And LS is still doing squat even with Lumina at 2 and JD at 3. That ought to tell something about its usefulness in the deck.

I meant when another monster is summoned it can be TT.

Obelisk has enough power as it is, since he can get around pretty much EVERY trap card and spell card people play. Dark Hole, TT, Mirror Force not included. Why make it anymore powerful by giving it a freebie attack?

Ra, yes, he's been restricted quite a bit... seeing as he can have at least, 7900 attack, and in the right deck he could have more, i'm not to upset with that. Again, IN THE RIGHT DECK.

And i don't keep track of the major tournaments and stuff. i didn't know if lightsworn had become obsolete or if it got better.

[jeremylin]

anyone else here feel that yugioh is mostly all luck?

for instance, if you draw into a hieratic and convocation, you otk
if you draw into WU factory, magician, and shark, your opponent drops half their hand
If you draw rescue rabbit then Solemn Judgement on legs
If you draw into bubbleman and Mask Change then Harpie Feather Duster on legs

If player A drew the right cards and player B didn't, then gg
If both players drew comparably well, then skill kicks in until topdecking starts

[Beast of Gilfer]

With a better banlist and a set or two dedicated to undersupported archetypes, attributes, and types, instead of creating a new archetype that is broken, this game can be fixed.

[WerewolfMaster13]

With a better banlist and a set or two dedicated to undersupported archetypes, attributes, and types, instead of creating a new archetype that is broken, this game can be fixed.

And the likelihood of that happening?

[Beast of Gilfer]

Probably more than a Reboot and it's being discussed.

Still, I feel like people forget the state of the game and the deck variety back then. You literally could not make any deck that wasn't a chaos variant or some sort of Monarch variant. Almost nothing had support and when it did it was terrible.

A decent banlist, with some future planning (banlist takes care of decks that will dominate the format should the top decks be toned down) and the game will get better.

[WerewolfMaster13]

Probably more than a Reboot and it's being discussed.

Still, I feel like people forget the state of the game and the deck variety back then. You literally could not make any deck that wasn't a chaos variant or some sort of Monarch variant. Almost nothing had support and when it did it was terrible.

A decent banlist, with some future planning (banlist takes care of decks that will dominate the format should the top decks be toned down) and the game will get better.

You hope. If Konami screws up again, it could get worse.

And you could make one of those other decks that wasn't Monarch of Chaos... just most people would mock you for it. I know i did it; fiends weren't slow back then and more fun to play then now.

Now, you can't make any deck that isn't meta, unless you want to lose. Before... not nearly as bad as now.

And they're seriously talking about a Reboot? How would they do that and what would it involve?

[SirDragonite]

You hope. If Konami screws up again, it could get worse.

And you could make one of those other decks that wasn't Monarch of Chaos... just most people would mock you for it. I know i did it; fiends weren't slow back then and more fun to play then now.

Now, you can't make any deck that isn't meta, unless you want to lose. Before... not nearly as bad as now.

And they're seriously talking about a Reboot? How would they do that and what would it involve?

Actually no. You can actually sack the meta with your favorite cards within reason. Back then if you weren't running Monarchs/Gadgets/OTK flavor of the week, you had no chance of survival. I tried that back in WC 08.

[DIYDeath]

outside of a few cards which absolutely need a ban (mostly limited ones) the format is decent, maybe even good.

TGU limited fixes Dino Rabbit's consistency.
Banning Hornet stops Inzektors from +4ing so bloody much
and Limiting Red-Eyes nips Chaos Dragons and Hieratics in the butt with one stroke.

Maybe ban hunter too because the Wind-Up loop is an abomination to the word balance.

There we just fixed all the tier 1 decks and now need to hit the limited list's spells.

[CED-EOTE<3]

I've come to the conclusion that the game is fine, and anyone who qq's about the "good old days" being so much better than inzektors or wind ups, doesn't remember tele-dad or airblade.

Maybe I should stay out of the forbidden/ limited list section before I start further doubting my sanity.

The game's fine, people. If you're not enjoying it you're doing it wrong.

[DIYDeath]

I've come to the conclusion that the game is fine, and anyone who qq's about the "good old days" being so much better than inzektors or wind ups, doesn't remember tele-dad or airblade.

Maybe I should stay out of the forbidden/ limited list section before I start further doubting my sanity.

The game's fine, people. If you're not enjoying it you're doing it wrong.

You're one of the forum trolls, I for one will not be taking anything you have to say seriously given how bad your opinions in the F/L area are and how frequent they are too.

[WerewolfMaster13]

I've come to the conclusion that the game is fine, and anyone who qq's about the "good old days" being so much better than inzektors or wind ups, doesn't remember tele-dad or airblade.

Maybe I should stay out of the forbidden/ limited list section before I start further doubting my sanity.

The game's fine, people. If you're not enjoying it you're doing it wrong.

Not running what everyone else is running is doing it wrong?

Huh, could've sworn that was a good thing at one time...

[Black Adam]

I've come to the conclusion that the game is fine, and anyone who qq's about the "good old days" being so much better than inzektors or wind ups, doesn't remember tele-dad or airblade.

Maybe I should stay out of the forbidden/ limited list section before I start further doubting my sanity.

The game's fine, people. If you're not enjoying it you're doing it wrong.

It's obvious that you play rabbit

[SirDragonite]

Not running what everyone else is running is doing it wrong?

Huh, could've sworn that was a good thing at one time...

Back then you could be a "competent" Elemental HERO player and still lose to a mediocre Monarch player. Hell, archetypes were completely worthless no matter how well you played with them.


Not much has changed outside the sackyness allows you to have a fighting chance against the meta.

[A bad Rose]

It's obvious that you play rabbit

He plays inzektors.. And sides the hornets cause theyre too weak in the main.

[WerewolfMaster13]

He plays inzektors.. And sides the hornets cause theyre too weak in the main.

Seriously? I don't even play that deck and i know that's wrong.

[Endyimon]

Seriously? I don't even play that deck and i know that's wrong.

so its rabbit then....gottcha. i still think the answer to fixing to game isnt to ban crap but to unban crap.

[WerewolfMaster13]

so its rabbit then....gottcha. i still think the answer to fixing to game isnt to ban crap but to unban crap.

hmm? I run Dark World if i'm going Meta. Rock Stun otherwise.

[Endyimon]

hmm? I run Dark World if i'm going Meta. Rock Stun otherwise.

darkworld huh, i have one of those decks....ok youre accepted...for now....

still UNbanned like half of the current list and the game will balance out.

[CED-EOTE<3]

Not running what everyone else is running is doing it wrong?

Huh, could've sworn that was a good thing at one time...

No, "doing it wrong" is spending more time crying about how "bad" the game is, even when there is such a versatile meta this format, than you actually spend playing the game.

So a lot of people play the same deck, who cares. You're one of 6 billion people on the planet - you can't be that original.

Yugioh has always been broken is my point. It will remain so, in different ways. Inzektors, rabbit, wind up.. Yeah, they're powerful. But you're a joke of a player if you lump them into the "broken" category with tier 0 decks like tele-dad.

Christ, we even just got new priority rulings. There is nothing in the meta that 3 veiler won't fix.

Just try this. Go and play. Stop listening to butthurt kids on Pojo who don't have the money to play tier 1, and just have a good time playing.

Additional Comment:

It's obvious that you play rabbit

Sometimes I do. It's not hard to afford with a job.

Hatin' cos rabbit has swag.

[LaDD Champion]

Didn't read the whole thread, so if I got ninja'd, sorry. My idea:

Let certain cards from the Forbidden/Limited lists come off, but ONLY for certain Deck Types. Examples:

Take Disk Commander off the Ban List, but make it so that if it IS used, it can ONLY be used in a Destiny HERO Deck, or Perfect Circle. And only at 1.

DMoC comes off the Banlist. It can ONLY be used in the new Books of Spell archetype, or in Perfect Circle. And only at 1.

Let certain Banned Cards come off of the list for certain decks, and those decks only. I'm not saying give CED - EoTE back to Chaos Decks (I would LOVE that personally), as that would be stupid, and would wreck the game, but give certain cards back to certain decks.

Gale. It can come to 2 ONLY for Blackwings. (This will probably never happen though, seeing as how Konami hates Blackwings.)

Give Honest back to Lightsworns OR Fairies at 2 for Extra Protection.

Now, as for Gateway, Black Whirlwind, Charge of the Light Brigade, Infernity Launcher, Stratos, ect.; they basically break the decks they were made for, so they can stay where they are at.

[AllSmiles]

Ladd champion that's a bad idea because then you have to constitute what is a " d hero deck" or " lightsworn deck". And that's not possible. Now I do like the idea of set rotation in yugioh. Just ban everything up to a certain point and make a reprint set in between of generic cards and old monster types and themes that will balance the format of that block. Have an active limited list that changes say every 3 to 6 months so it fixes anything that needs it. Nothing changes I yugioh other than the card pool which we have over what 6000 cards and only a few hundred are even used competitively. Yea I think we'll be ok in the mean time.

Or

They start taking cards off the list that are finally outclassed or ones that can fix a format they can even shape formats with our really large card pool. Consider our next banned list hits and Ring of Destruction comes down.

!!!!!!

Yea all of a sudden we have a serious Aggro based format. Negation will be king. Almost a broken format.

If they want to slow down the format just with an un banning of say Royal Oppression and probably semi limIting it.

Our sets should impact the game our banned and restricted list should regulate it so the formats not and over powered format.

[MikeApollo]

Ladd champion that's a bad idea because then you have to constitute what is a " d hero deck" or " lightsworn deck". And that's not possible. Now I do like the idea of set rotation in yugioh. Just ban everything up to a certain point and make a reprint set in between of generic cards and old monster types and themes that will balance the format of that block. Have an active limited list that changes say every 3 to 6 months so it fixes anything that needs it. Nothing changes I yugioh other than the card pool which we have over what 6000 cards and only a few hundred are even used competitively. Yea I think we'll be ok in the mean time.

Or

They start taking cards off the list that are finally outclassed or ones that can fix a format they can even shape formats with our really large card pool. Consider our next banned list hits and Ring of Destruction comes down.

!!!!!!

Yea all of a sudden we have a serious Aggro based format. Negation will be king. Almost a broken format.

If they want to slow down the format just with an un banning of say Royal Oppression and probably semi limIting it.

Our sets should impact the game our banned and restricted list should regulate it so the formats not and over powered format.



As long as the Beast/Bark/Shien trio remain in the game dont ever expect to see Royal Oppression off the ban list

[AllSmiles]

I didn't say I expected to see it un banned it was a hypothetical scenario meant to get a point across. Pojoers are so dumb they can't even be taught how fake intelligence.

[marquis11]

Unban Victory Dragon and no more allowing people to scoop if the do they forfeit the match. Enforce players not to slow play just to time out for the win

[Fran0823]

Yeah he definitely deserves a medal for trying to compare losing a Yu-Gi-Oh! duel to killing someone's family after being accused of taking the game too seriously.

Here you go (http://www.presentermedia.com/files/clipart/00003000/3719/gold_medal_award_first_place_md_wm.jpg)

You deserve it (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_W9Nv-X4TrJw/Sw_9587vDNI/AAAAAAAAAQA/osg4FXN1Oc4/s1600/chocolate_chip_cookie.jpg)

[vegetavsluigi]

This game HAS become broken. It hasn't ALWAYS been broken. The only "threatening" thing in the old days was Exodia, which could have easily been countered with a Lightforce Sword. About the only draw power for Exodia back then was Upstart Goblin, Pot of Greed at 1, and Graceful Charity. The old days were too slow, the present days are too broken. Choose one or the other and shut the f** up.

[Mamoswine Flu]

I've come to the conclusion that the game is fine, and anyone who qq's about the "good old days" being so much better than inzektors or wind ups, doesn't remember tele-dad or airblade.

Maybe I should stay out of the forbidden/ limited list section before I start further doubting my sanity.

The game's fine, people. If you're not enjoying it you're doing it wrong.

They may not remember those days because for one, teledad format was as bad at this format was thought to be at the start (money being the main factor)

And two, DDT was never called airblade in the US until recently, and it was the same as teledad: The most expensive deck at the time.

While "good(wealthy)" players were off searching for Destiny Hero Malicious on turn 1, both regular, and good not-so-wealthy players were tagging GBs, tributing for Raizas, or even putting crystal beasts in their S/T zone and I'd be dropping Rainbow Neos feeling like a ******* boss.

[vegetavsluigi]

It seems everyone disagrees with CED. And Rainbow Neos is awwwwwwwesome!

[Little_Goten]

Any format that allows me to legally summon Herald of Perfection and Master Hyperion on the same turn, while tossing fairies from my hand and turning my graveyard into a toolbox is A-OK in my book.

In all seriousness though, I can certainly understand why many have grown to hate this game. I've been playing the game since the original Yu-Gi-Oh was on the air here in the states, and the game we have now is completely unrecognizable to the old days.

Remember back when everyone who had a blue-eyes thought they were hot ****? Seto MF-ing Kaiba. Good times.

Now it's all about having constant control over every facet of the duel, to the point where the possibility of OTKing is much much greater. Certain cards that should never have come back, like Heavy Storm, have. It's crazy.

I like this game enough to adapt to the changes and keep playing. I just see all this new stuff as an interesting challenge.

A redone ban list is a good idea, though pre-emptive bans are probably out-of-the-question (Konami's a business). If there are going to be mass bannings, then they should have more balanced replacements for the cards they ban, instead of just leaving a barren Wasteland in their wake.

Either that or just break everything at once, lol.

EDIT: Oh HA HA Pojo. The word 'Wasteland' becomes a link to the field spell? Really?

[Neverwish]

My take on what should be done:

First, use the September banlist to weaken the current tier 1 decks.
Be sure to take care of Wind-Up Hunter, Inzektor Hunter, Inzektor Dragonfly, Tour Guide, Rescue Rabbit and REDMD.

If done correctly, that should merge them into Tier 2. Now you got a huge list of Tier 2 decks which are capable of competing with one another.

Now start releasing support for old archetypes and forgotten attributes. Do this to get as many decks as you can into our new Universal Tier. You can call this set Ancient's Revival (See? I even thought of a good name for you).

Be sure to follow what the players are doing with the decks, if you see something getting out of hand, don't wait six months. Take care of it.

That should fix it.

Oh wait, I forgot. Money.

[vegetavsluigi]

Too bad that won't be a reality because Chaos Dragons, Dino Rabbit, and Inzektors are what is giving Konami its wealth currently. The same will go for the Madolches when THEY are released...

[jeremylin]

lol victory dragon

[thefusescape II]

Everybody thought maldolche`s would be for lulzlzlzlzlz but Konami decided to turn them into the tcg meta after reading that we liked them. I think it is funny that I run six sam virus's but without an extra deck or anything they suck to high heavens. I just can't find a deck I can afford and use. I am kind of having more fun with airsoft at the moment.

[Black Adam]

Unban Victory Dragon and no more allowing people to scoop if the do they forfeit the match. Enforce players not to slow play just to time out for the win

your're dumb

[! ! ! $]

Many people will say TeleDAD decks were broken, I was fine with that format.

Many people will say Plant.dek was dumb, I was fine with that format.

I am not fine with the current format where there are times you just can't do anything or they draw the perfect out.

Decks back then didn't have the explosive turn 1 that we do now and if they did it was a lot easier to come back from.

[vegetavsluigi]

Yeah have fun seeing that again. As of currently, they ARE bringing an XYZ monster for 6 Sams, but that won't do ANYTHING for them. The most it'll do is give Konami more money in their pocket and give the players a big disappointment. THIS format is the most broken one I've seen yet, and I've been in this since the beginning. Point is, grab some popcorn to watch Yu Gi Oh collapse in on itself.

[Beast_Of_Talwar]

I agree. I've been playing since the game first hit in the US and since the GX series started making "Themes" its gone down hill. You have to buy more packs just to get the numerous theme spell, traps and monster to go with this crap before you can make a deck worth using. I miss the glory days before Synchros and XYZ bull.

[vegetavsluigi]

Agreed entirely.

[CrazyCat]

This game is too far gone. Its time to just unban everything and watch the game implode on itself. Seriously, not only do we have a terrible managing company and horrible card pool, but the players are just as bad. There is literally nothing good about this game.

[Eon Drache]

I don't think we need a total Reboot because a lot of the older cards would be fine. Save a few (I'm looking at you Emperor Dragon).

I remember the days of Lord of D. into Flute with 2 Blue-Eyes/Tri-Horned Dragon. Then getting Mirror Forced XD but they were fun. Blue-Eyes has always been in my deck. But lets compare it to other cards.

Back then, being a normal monster meant more attack points for its level. Now, we have Black AGD, or Judgement Dragon, or so forth. Every rival monster to each series shares the same attack points as Blue-Eyes, yet they keep getting stronger. How did we go from Blue-Eyes to Galaxy-Eyes?

Take the game back pre-Phantom of Darkness and I'd be happy again. Each set should maybe introduce 1 new theme and support older themes. GraveKeepers, Blue-Eyes, Dark Magician.

Another one of my favorite cards were Tyrant Dragon. HUGE set back for 2900 effect monster. Now, DaD, no draw backs, 2800 ATK, and blows 3 things up ON summon.

The only thing Blue-Eyes has going for her is Fiendish Chain doesn't affect her.

[vegetavsluigi]

Yep. I would LOVE to see that happen. But guess what? Currently, Konami is making a bunch of money, so they discarded everything having to do with that back into the dark ages. I would LOVE to watch everything get unbanned and the game imploding in on itself. But the money Konami would lose is apparently TOO much for the hundreds upon millions they already have.

[! ! ! $]

This game is too far gone. Its time to just unban everything and watch the game implode on itself. Seriously, not only do we have a terrible managing company and horrible card pool, but the players are just as bad. There is literally nothing good about this game.

Considering this is the first format that I've actually opted out of and haven't wanted to come back, yes, just scratch off that we even have a banlist, because it's not worth it.

[RikotheFoxKid]

Considering this is the first format that I've actually opted out of and haven't wanted to come back, yes, just scratch off that we even have a banlist, because it's not worth it.

These are my thoughts exactly.

I have loved every other format, no matter how bad they were in hindsight. I never minded TeleDAD, enjoyed Synchro Cat to some extent, and I absolutely loved the Giant Trunade format. They were interesting.

But this format is just awful. It disgusts me to no end. There's no fun to it, because everything comes down to whoever can Boss Rush the field first.

It's ironic, really. When the March 2012 banlist was announced, I posted a video on YouTube, and at the end I criticized everybody who was calling it the worst banlist ever. I was telling them to grow up, that it was just a game, and to enjoy it no matter what happened.

I would have taken those words back had I known what was going to happen. I never figured myself as the person who would want to quit, or at least take a long break away from the game.

But at this point I'm seriously considering switching to Magic as my main CCG. My entire team has already done so, and if the next banlist isn't an utter cleansing of this game, I'm almost definitely gonna join them.

If YGO collapses on itself and dies very soon, I find it very sad to say I won't mind with the current state it's in.

[CrazyCat]

This is also the first ban list where its blatantly nothing more than product-pushing. Ban everything that doesn't promote Order of Chaos?

I'm just sick of the degraded state of the game. The player base is full of thieves, liars, and idiots. The company that is supposedly managing this game is even worse morality-wise. They care absolutely nothing for the game itself, nor do they even care to create decent cards anymore. Literally every set that has come out recently has provided the game with at least 1 tournament-topping deck for the sole reason that the card designs are total ****.

[WerewolfMaster13]

Okay then, why not send a message to Konami? Start a petition, or more than one, and have people sign it, then send it in.
Yes, idiots will still buy their strategies online, and won't want the game to change as long as their winning... but if Konami realizes a large quantity of the player base will stop playing, therefore, stop buying, if they don't do something soon, they might start taking responsibility to their actions.

inb4 someone mocks me for being an idealist...

[Beast_Of_Talwar]

That might actually work. I miss the mystical air the game had back in the yugi series. It's like the heart of the game was taken out. Now the point of collecting and playing the cards is now to just win. There's no fun left in the game with these new introductions. Sign me up lol

[vegetavsluigi]

Werewolf, I'm not gonna criticize you for being an idealist, I'm just gonna tell you what's on my mind. Konami won't change if people stop playing. They're in too deep. As of right now, they want the Six Samurais to make them money, but there are so many decks out there that are faster(Chaos Dragons, Dino Rabbit, Wind Ups, Inzektors, and to some extent Dark Worlds.) They might put a major hit on them in the next banlist. If not, then grab some popcorn and have fun watching the game die, like all the hopes and dreams of new duelists and DarkMagician. :'(

[CrazyCat]

Okay then, why not send a message to Konami? Start a petition, or more than one, and have people sign it, then send it in.
FYI, they already tried that. Right after the ban list. There was like a series of 5 threads in the Gossip section about it. Know what happened?

Konami released the Battle Pack, and everyone got back on their jock. And you act like Konami would even listen to the petition anyway. No matter how many people signed it, there would be twice that many still willing to buy the stuff and bend over for the company, and thats all they care about.

[vegetavsluigi]

Agreed cat. Too bad they didn't stop before 5Ds happened.

[WerewolfMaster13]

Agreed cat. Too bad they didn't stop before 5Ds happened.

5D's was okay.

Zexal is far from okay...

@Cat:
I was suggesting something because i was unaware of what someone else had done. I don't scour the forums looking for things most nights... {Tone: non-confrontational}

[RikotheFoxKid]

I loved the 5D's era. Barring the broken crap like Dark Strike Fighter and Hyper Librarian, I thought Synchros were a very nice addition to the game.

But the Xyz are different. They're far too splashable, which combined with the banlist resulted in Synchros almost completely vanishing from Extra Decks.

Not to mention how many of them are busted. It took Synchros 3 years to accumulate 3 monsters powerful enough to be banned (4 if you count Librarian, which should have been banned...).

Xyz has been around for a little over a year, and we already have people crying out for hits on Leviair, Laggia, Dolkka, and Gustaph Max. That's FOUR. Already more than 5D's in a third of the time.

The ZEXAL era has been very poor compared to 5D's.

[meta14]

With the way this is going, eventually Konami's going to screw up big time, and no one's going to want to play or buy product. Then they can either let this game die, or make some changes with the game's best interests in mind. I'm probably going quit long before this happens though.

[CrazyCat]

@Cat:
I was suggesting something because i was unaware of what someone else had done. I don't scour the forums looking for things most nights... {Tone: non-confrontational}
Neither do I, but it got annoying when it kept popping up on the front page and people kept talking about it.

[ImissMorphtronics]

Konami is going to screw up very badly. The way I see it is that they keep introducing archtypes with abilities that are the same as the previous archtype released a generation before the current. Not only that, the anime keeps introducing characters who only show lik 15% of their deck and then are never seen again, then konami feels the need to make those cards for the gen pop (general population) and never even think about making up cards to help the archtype out. A good example is Tron on zexal, so far he's only been shown summoning 2 monster (not including his number monster), abercornway and bernards falcon and those 2 have already been confirmed for the abyss rising booster pack. Tron willl probably show a few more monsters and konami may release them, but after that they will be completely done with that archtype in both TCG/OCG and in the anime.

I watch the episodes from time to time but I haven't played since the last morphtronics was released in extreme victory. Cuz in my opinion, despite what people say about morphtronics, I think they would have had the potential to be quite successful if only the anime would have expanded more on the morphtronic (and hopefully the manga would finally show some new morphtronic instead of the spells and traps otherwise their in the same boat) and if konami would've been creative and created some new morphtronic stuff during and after the 5ds era, instead of introducing like 4 new archtypes, cuz out of those 4 new introduced, like only 2 of them are used by half the yugioh population. So instead always introducing like 4 new archtypes per booster, just introduce only 2 and use the remaining slots from the other 2 archtypes to simple help out some of the older decks that never got help or is in need of help.

It would be nice if that happended, epecially for morphtronics...

Konami seriously has to get their heads out of their butts and start thinking about the consumers and not the size of their freakin wallets. If your gonna introduce a archtype, don't introduce to many at a time, and expands on pre-existing decks that needed help. So that way each deck could be somewhat balanced with all the others rather then trying so hard to get the best game winning deck and by the time they finally get it, everyone has already moved on to something new or something...

Like I said, I quit after the 5ds era, since there doesn't seem to be any sort of help for the morphtronics, so I promised myself that until at least 15-20 card was introduced that could benefit the morphtronics to keep up with the zexal era that I wouldn't play until that happend

That's just my opinion though, everyone would probably not agree and start bashing on me but hey, its america, I have my freedom of speech, right?

[vegetavsluigi]

Let's be clear about this. You're mad cuz Morphtrons won't get help. If they made everything equal powered, they would start with Dark Magicians and Morphtrons would get updated in like 5 years.

[ImissMorphtronics]

Just to be clear, I'm not mad, nor do I get mad about things that don't really benefit me. Yugioh is one of things that don't benefit me, its simply something I used to pass time. All I'm saying is if they focused on trying to make all or most decks as equally powered as all the tier 1's, then that would probably help some people. I do admit that I love the archtype but I do have a machina deck and a t.g deck along with my old demise deck that has quite a few useful cards to use for machina and t.g, but I don like it enough to go acting like a raging fanboy, especially since the very existance of yugioh is by no means, something that's always kept me drawn to it. There have been several times throughout the entire of all yugioh series where I've lost interest in it. Like in yugioh, after the duelist kingdom arc when yugi and the others go into kaiba's computer to save kaiba or something like that I quit watching until it was over, then again when the begining of the battle city tournament, and the grand championship arc, then I skipped all yugioh gx epiosdes until season 4, and the 1st season of 5ds, and all the zexal episodes prior to the begining of the semi finals of the wdc which is the duel between tron and droite and onwards.

So anywas, yeah, I'm not mad because the I was never really much of a super fan as some people appear to be, I'm mostly a fan of any tv show, movie with a dark, twisted horror type story.


All I'm saying is that for all player, spanning the many deck themes they have, its should be a good idea for konami to at least make an attempt to made all or some as equally powered as possible instead of introducing the same stuff with a different name on them. It does gets quite repetitive and very dull. Sometimes that's hard for some people to see because they get so diluted by all the potential success they see themselves having if they keep dishing out cash on booster pack and booster boxes hoping to get the cards that all th big players have. Eventually they'll quit and move on to something better like gaming, cuz let's face it, why spend so much money on booster packs getting the same cards over and over to play with players who have the best cards ever made when they could simply spend about $40-$60 on a video game for whatever system they have and play wifi matches that most games have options to choose to play against certain people with the same experience as them. It seems like a better investment of time to me.

[vegetavsluigi]

Hmmk. How someone could think this would exist is beyond me. As said before, Konami doesn't want to lose too much of their billions of dollars.

[ImissMorphtronics]

Well as I said before, this is america, I have my freedom of speech and so do you. All I'm saying is at this point, video games seems to be a better waste of money then buying cards. Especially since since yugioh requires free space for all the cards and a good memory to keep track of your life points while you wait for your opponenet to hurry up with their turn, and video games all you need is a chair and a tv.

But if konami ever desides to get their head out their butt and make an attempt to make much needed changed to the game, which odds are they obviously won't which means,

If konami keep disappointing the fans with terrible ban list and repetitive cards and the fans still buy them, then simply put, the fans are part of the problem. If fans want change then stop buying, let them lose money because when they see that soon they may have to file bankrupcy then as a last ditch effort they'll know that its time to give the fans the changes that they want. They will keep disappointing people cuz they know the people will get whatever they throw at them so the best way to show that fans want better changes, stop giving konami a reason to keep stuffing their wallet with cash

[vegetavsluigi]

Good point, but either way the game will implode in on itself, so that point is pretty much nothing...

[WerewolfMaster13]

Only if people let it... considering without demand of consumers, it doesn't really matter how much Konami supplies us with cards. They still lose out; if you actually want something to change, try getting people to boycott purchasing new cards for a format, along with a petition asking for changes...

sadly, most people don't realize the company doesn't have all the power...

[vegetavsluigi]

In this case, the company had TOO much power. Even IF there was a boycott, the game is too far gone.

[vilainn6]

Many people will say TeleDAD decks were broken, I was fine with that format.

Many people will say Plant.dek was dumb, I was fine with that format.

I am not fine with the current format where there are times you just can't do anything or they draw the perfect out.

Decks back then didn't have the explosive turn 1 that we do now and if they did it was a lot easier to come back from.

that completly right

[WerewolfMaster13]

In this case, the company had TOO much power. Even IF there was a boycott, the game is too far gone.

Unless they've stopped printing the cards, i'm pretty sure it can still be saved... maybe i am wrong.

However, if you think that, just stop playing and stop complaining. You're not being forced to play you know; no one is. Having an issue and not doing anything about it is... frankly not going to help anyone.

But perhaps we should just wait for September and see what comes of it... cause you are right: If things don't change, and it looks like no one is willing to keep trying to change them, there won't be a reason to play anymore.

[david0925]

the game will continue to get more sacky until a major rule overhaul is done. And this probably won't be done unless a large group of people voice a very strong opinion on it. Endless expanding of ban/limit list will not doing anything because they can release something just as broken or more in newer sets.

Honestly, I like the explosive play aspect of YGO because you honestly can tell player skill difference from playing the same hand (extreme cases being the exception), but there needs to be a boundary about that.

[WerewolfMaster13]

the game will continue to get more sacky until a major rule overhaul is done. And this probably won't be done unless a large group of people voice a very strong opinion on it. Endless expanding of ban/limit list will not doing anything because they can release something just as broken or more in newer sets.

Honestly, I like the explosive play aspect of YGO because you honestly can tell player skill difference from playing the same hand (extreme cases being the exception), but there needs to be a boundary about that.

but based on what you've heard on this thread, is it likely anyone will actually say anything?

It seems half of them just gave up, and the other half just want to complain...

[david0925]

but based on what you've heard on this thread, is it likely anyone will actually say anything?

It seems half of them just gave up, and the other half just want to complain...

the reality is no matter how much better the game suddenly becomes, there will also be a portion of people that are always complaining and/or are nostalgic about the past. You can't completely get rid of them so just ignore people that are complaining for the sake of complaining.

As for speaking up, I think TCG players have the most leverage because your prices are so much higher than ours, in terms of both primary (boosters, decks, etc) and secondary (singles) market. I think a signed official petition sent to Konami might be worth a shot, but it needs to be a repeated effort. I'm already doing something on the OCG part.

Lastly, I think people just need to accept the fact that there will always be Tier 1 decks that are "the best". As long as the game isn't super sacky, it's fine.

[CrazyCat]

Lastly, I think people just need to accept the fact that there will always be Tier 1 decks that are "the best". As long as the game isn't super sacky, it's fine.
No one cares that there are decks that are "the best", but in the past, for the most part, they've all been able to be beaten by strong Tier 2 decks, or were at least fun to play. What do we have now?
We have Dino Rabbits, which literally don't let you play. They negate everything you do.
We have Inzektors, which is pretty much anti-Tier 2. They completely destroy any kind of advantage engine a Tier 2 deck might be able to produce.
We have Wind-ups, which consistently make you start the game with 2 cards, less if they sack a Pot of Avarice in their opening. This is even worse than Dino Rabbits.
We have Chaos Dragons, which completely destroy the "rule" that the stronger a monster is, the harder it should be to get out. They do nothing but summon massive beaters and, rather than protecting them, just let them die, because then they'll just summon more beaters.

The problem isn't that there is a Tier 1, the problem is what that Tier 1 is.

[david0925]

I do agree with you, which is why I said "as long as the game isn't super sacky". It definitely is right now

[vegetavsluigi]

But Yu Gi Oh will keep going farther into the abyss it has stuck itself into. It is inevitable. The reason the game has gone this far is because everyone loves change. Nothing in the game shall stay the same, even if people want it. The only way this could be reality is if someone froze time, which is impossible.

[david0925]

But Yu Gi Oh will keep going farther into the abyss it has stuck itself into. It is inevitable. The reason the game has gone this far is because everyone loves change. Nothing in the game shall stay the same, even if people want it. The only way this could be reality is if someone froze time, which is impossible.

I'm sure you can evolve the game while taking away one card reversals, such as Heavy Storm and Monster Reborn.

I was a proponent of the 1 heavy 1 MST format, but then I remembered that they released Night Shot, which does pretty much the same thing except for setting as MST bait or activate in the end phase. Right now you just need to ban heavy (or you limit MST AND night shot at the same time). Monster Reborn just needs to go because it's just too strong and will only get stronger. There are other cards that people debate about, such as Card D, Future Fusion, and Gateway of the Six.

To sum up what my friend told me : Yugioh tier 1= Special summon + nuke cards. He is right, and having freedom of play is actually really nice (when you look at MTG, you are limited by Mana. On one side cards are easier to balance, but on the other side your action is also limited so the number of plays that can come out of one hand is more limited). As long as the freedom of play doesn't turn the game into a rock-paper-scissors game, it will be my preferred game type.

[Galliw]

But Yu Gi Oh will keep going farther into the abyss it has stuck itself into. It is inevitable. The reason the game has gone this far is because everyone loves change. Nothing in the game shall stay the same, even if people want it. The only way this could be reality is if someone froze time, which is impossible.

Thats what you think

No one cares that there are decks that are "the best", but in the past, for the most part, they've all been able to be beaten by strong Tier 2 decks, or were at least fun to play. What do we have now?
We have Dino Rabbits, which literally don't let you play. They negate everything you do.
We have Inzektors, which is pretty much anti-Tier 2. They completely destroy any kind of advantage engine a Tier 2 deck might be able to produce.
We have Wind-ups, which consistently make you start the game with 2 cards, less if they sack a Pot of Avarice in their opening. This is even worse than Dino Rabbits.
We have Chaos Dragons, which completely destroy the "rule" that the stronger a monster is, the harder it should be to get out. They do nothing but summon massive beaters and, rather than protecting them, just let them die, because then they'll just summon more beaters.

The problem isn't that there is a Tier 1, the problem is what that Tier 1 is.

Really Because im pretty sure the only tier 1 deck that's topped any nats so far is Wind-ups in NA and it wasn't even really tier 1 until that event it had fallen off the grid almost completely

[CrazyCat]

But thats exactly what freedom of play does. There is no inhibiting factor or cost system; In MTG, you are limited by how much Mana you have; In Vanguard, you are limited by how many Counterblasts you have; so on and so forth. There is no such system in Yu-gi-oh, which means there is essentially no way to limit play, which paves ways for OTKs and the such.

Additional Comment:

Really Because im pretty sure the only tier 1 deck that's topped any nats so far is Wind-ups in NA and it wasn't even really tier 1 until that event it had fallen off the grid almost completely
I don't understand the point of this post. Tier 1 is not constituted by the one deck that tops nationals, it is determined by the decks that continue to have showings at YCS and Regional Tournaments, which are the decks I listed.

[Galliw]

But thats exactly what freedom of play does. There is no inhibiting factor or cost system; In MTG, you are limited by how much Mana you have; In Vanguard, you are limited by how many Counterblasts you have; so on and so forth. There is no such system in Yu-gi-oh, which means there is essentially no way to limit play, which paves ways for OTKs and the such.

Additional Comment:


I don't understand the point of this post. Tier 1 is not constituted by the one deck that tops nationals, it is determined by the decks that continue to have showings at YCS and Regional Tournaments, which are the decks I listed.

Yes but you were talking about the decks controlling the game state and that's whats wrong with the meta. Imo its that not enough people are being creative and theres not enough rogue decks running around u see so many dino rabbits/Inzektors Chaos Dragons and wind-ups because there strong decks but also because they have numbers to support the decks topping

[CrazyCat]

u see so many dino rabbits/Inzektors Chaos Dragons and wind-ups because there strong decks but also because they have numbers to support the decks topping
You see so many of these decks because they are Tier 1. Thats what I was saying. There is too much of a separation between Tier 1 and Tier 2 in this game. There are "good" decks, and then there are decks that just Top and win tournaments consistently. "Good" doesn't cut it in this game.

[Galliw]

They top consistently not only because there good but they have a lot of people playing them power in numbers bro chaos dragons is a good deck but it didn't top until a lot of people started playing it because it was cheap and pretty good in general
Wind-ups is a great deck but almost no one was playing it until nats that's why it was topping but not in large numbers nor consistently.

[vegetavsluigi]

Power in numbers kinda has something to do with it. Gall, what's the fish holding in your pic?

[WerewolfMaster13]

Power in numbers kinda has something to do with it. Gall, what's the fish holding in your pic?

wind-up hunter

[jeremylin]

Windups turned this game into a coin toss.

They go first, they win.

[vegetavsluigi]

You're Correct!

[Magical Magistrate]

To me, I've seen every combo in tier 1 700 times already and 300 of tier 2's. The game is broke now, yes, but for me, it mostly gets boring.

I get bored when I know exactly every obvious move ever done by a deck will be done, and by the time someone gets out a first turn Shi-En, starts the Lightpulsar or Wind-up Loop, or uses Hornet's combo, I've already said **** it, I already know what's going to happen. Everyone has seen your deck, and everyone has to find a way to counter it or else they basically automatically lose.

It makes me feel like every person seemingly uses the exact same deck for what they play if they want to win nearly everytime. The banlist changes every few months, impacting certain decks, but the decks will still likely have enough cards to only slightly change the usual formula without having to change their deck much. They still stay competitive, but they'll be overshadowed by a new deck that becomes more broken than they were, who in turn completely changes the way you play.

Basically, it makes me think that if you want to win, you have to play Tier 1 nowadays, or else you'll be smashed into oblivion. And even if you spend enough money to get a Tier 1 deck, you'll likely have a card banned of yours that ruins any credibility by the start of the next format. You wasted money on cards that were excellent, but can't be used. I'm sure glad I spent 100 dollars on that Hornet playset that may or may not get banned come september.

The game has become too repititive, costly, and exceedingly broken to me. /rant

[Bobby Vang]

Basically, it makes me think that if you want to win, you have to play Tier 1 nowadays

Derp, that's why Tier 1 decks are Tier 1 and not Tier 2. Real baddie.

[RikotheFoxKid]

Derp, that's why Tier 1 decks are Tier 1 and not Tier 2. Real baddie.

This wasn't always the case. Tier 1 Decks will always have the best chance, but in the past Tier 2 Decks have had a better chance than they do now. The only Tier 2 Decks that have even come close to winning this format are Dark World, which won the first YCS of the format then dropped off the map, and Final Countdown, a troll Deck.

[GlandiatorBeast94]

This wasn't always the case. Tier 1 Decks will always have the best chance, but in the past Tier 2 Decks have had a better chance than they do now. The only Tier 2 Decks that have even come close to winning this format are Dark World, which won the first YCS of the format then dropped off the map, and Final Countdown, a troll Deck.

Agreed, remember when people stopped playing GB yet it would still top stuff? Or LS still being somewhat competitive and Six Sams might next format. Like Riko said, tier 1 decks will always have a better chance, if they didn't they wouldn't be tier 1 decks now would they? But in this format the tier 2 decks have very little room to win stuff, sure you might beat one tier 1 deck out of like what 5? It doesn't really matter in this format, you either play a tier 1 deck or go anti-meta.

[RikotheFoxKid]

Remember the format where Cody Gravelle Top 4'd with Lightsworn? Every YCS that format at least one LS Deck made Top 32. And that Deck was still easily Tier 2, maybe even Tier 3.

That doesn't happen anymore. The Decks That Top are the four Tier 1's, a troll Deck, and maybe a Tier 2 IF YOU'RE LUCKY. :/

[Abs0lute Zer0]

I also get kinda sick of those people who complain that Cards should stay expensive so the "scrubs" dont get to use them... I consider myself a scrub and When i got warnings and dualities I was just as bad as I was before it.

To be a bit more on topic: I think there are too many loops, otks, etc out there now